Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

[MrE]

Idk why people are so obsessed with getting Lugia or Solgeleo into the tier when Ubers UU is now a thing and they'll most likely be pretty good in those formats.

Comparing them to Darkrai is a mistake considering that Darkrai is shit in Ubers UU and didn't really have a place in the tier.

As for Skymin, that shit is banned in Ubers UU, y'all are nuts thinking it wouldn't be giga broken in OU.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

we've now gone for seven pages discussing the merits of skymin, solgaleo, lugia, necrozma-dw, and annihilape in ou. why have we let this happen? why has this off-topic topic been allowed to continue for so long? are people doing this specifically to cause me to suffer or is that just a bonus? this is worse than the glaceon bullshit ever was and that got blacklisted

 

[Eeveeto]

we've now gone for seven pages discussing the merits of skymin, solgaleo, lugia, necrozma-dw, and annihilape in ou. why have we let this happen? why has this off-topic topic been allowed to continue for so long? this is worse than the glaceon bullshit ever was and that got blacklisted

Maybe we should decide whether they deserve going to OU or not based on their ability to face a Specs Glaceon.


252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin-Sky: 1224-1440 (358.9 - 422.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dawn-Wings: 351-414 (104.7 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 272-320 (65.3 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ghost Glaceon Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Annihilape: 332-392 (78.8 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ghost Glaceon Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Solgaleo: 474-560 (114.2 - 134.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


So Lugia and as expected Annihilape are clearly Ubers but all the other ones can safely go down in OU. Groudon should go to OU too, since its OHKOd by Glaceon as well.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Maybe we should decide whether they deserve going to OU or not based on their ability to face a Specs Glaceon.


252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin-Sky: 1224-1440 (358.9 - 422.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dawn-Wings: 351-414 (104.7 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Glaceon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 272-320 (65.3 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ghost Glaceon Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Annihilape: 332-392 (78.8 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ghost Glaceon Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Solgaleo: 474-560 (114.2 - 134.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


So Lugia and as expected Annihilape are clearly Ubers but all the other ones can safely go down in OU. Groudon should go to OU too, since its OHKOd by Glaceon as well.

ah, but did you factor in the +1 from calm mind? that turns the lugia and annihilape calcs into solid ohkos. we have to keep this sort of thing in mind when running glaceon calcs, it's quite easy for specs glaceon to find the opportunity to set up a calm mind or two

 

[BolTingBlazie]

All the past few pages has convinced me on is that we need a Gods Among Us tour again. Let people have their few games where we drop Solgaleo, Giratina, Annihilape, Palafin, or what have you. An informal tour like that coming back would make it so much easier for people to come to conclusions on the mons instead of having pages upon pages of sus discussion. It almost gives me imposter syndrome.

amogus joke aside, maybe we should start that fun series up again in the future. Let people who want to see Dawn Wings, Urshifu, or Skymin in action get their wish. Data is useful and would make a lot of this discussion feel a bit less circular.

Mostly I just wanna see Lugia let into an OUPL tournament and see if its something that could be suspected

Also I don't expect Lugia to be good in Ubers UU, especially with the stuff it lost

 

[Bakugames]

Guys, you're contributing to your own suffering by constantly arguing with whatever new post about dropping an uber comes in and replying to each other on this topic, thus prolongating the discussion. You don't have to reply to every post you disagree with, just ignore and talk about something else. Like rockpon because this mons kinda swag

 

[Neosonic97]

Technically, it would make the problem way easier to deal with as Gholdengo is the best rapid spin blocker we have ever gotten. Anyway, the moment Ghold goes rapid spinners become a whole hell of a lot better in the meta as Dragapult is way easier for fat teams to pressure than Ghold, and it can't spinblock nearly as well due to its less than stellar bulk. We actually do have plenty of spinners, but spin isn't viable because Ghold exists and blocks both Mortal and Rapid Spin. If we ban Ghold rapid spin usage would skyrocket off of that alone, which probably is a really good thing.

This, basically. Ghold doesn't just block Defog like nobody's business, it also blocks both forms of Spin, thus leaving Tidy Up (exclusive to the otherwise underwhelming Maushold, and the completely unviable Cinccino and Furret) and Court Change (exclusive to Cinderace, who is currently kind of struggling in the metagame- also Court Change only works once) as the only options to out hazards against it.

 

[pika pal]

With regards to Gouging Fire, is it kneecapping too much for Sun teams to spec it for Speed Protosynthesis, since the requisite Sun and possible DD/CB usage will do a lot to bolster its damage output on its best spamming Type? Jolly 168 ATK leaves a decent amount of EVs to spec into its plenty-relevant Bulk and the high BP moves already do it a lot of favor for both Boosting Wincon and just trading ala Melmetal or lower tier Iron Hands.

Alternate/broader question: Any EV spreads people are liking for Gouging Fire besides pretty typical Max/Max ones on offense or defense?

 

[Lethargic]

open-mindedness has a limit. i'm not going to sit here and pretend like "we should drop solgaleo/lugia/skymin" are arguments worth entertaining, no matter how many badges the people bringing them up have or how well-voiced the arguments are. every single council member could type a separate 5-paragraph essay on why they would support a lugia test, the idea would still be wrong and i wouldn't hesitate a damn second saying so. christ himself could come down from heaven and decree that solgaleo should drop and i'd still be first in line to call bullshit

we would be out 2 weeks where we could have been doing something infinitely more productive like dealing with what's going on in the present instead of trying to solve imaginary problems by creating very real ones

What? You are literally saying that your opinion is automatically correct and no matter how many players disagree or what their skill level is you are still correct. You were saying darkrai is obviously broken and was “free ELO”. Like you can have a different opinion but you explicitly dismiss any opinion that isn’t yours.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

What? You are literally saying that your opinion is automatically correct and no matter how many players disagree or what their skill level is you are still correct. You were saying darkrai is obviously broken and was “free ELO”. Like you can have a different opinion but you explicitly dismiss any opinion that isn’t yours.

No i'm saying there are reasons in favor of dropping Lugia that are actually semi valid compared to some of the other ones we are talking about like Solgaleo, Giratina-A, and Necrozma Dawn Wings. Also for your information, I was one of the ones who thought Darkrai would just be fine down here and nothing too amazing, as it sounded way more op on paper than in practice

 

[Anchor9]

No i'm saying there are reasons in favor of dropping Lugia that are actually semi valid compared to some of the other ones we are talking about like Solgaleo, Giratina-A, and Necrozma Dawn Wings. Also for your information, I was one of the ones who thought Darkrai would just be fine down here and nothing too amazing, as it sounded way more op on paper than in practice

He wasn’t talking to you.

 

[June Heat]

Can we get a moderator to close discussion on Uber drops? It’s really annoying, and is distracting from genuine discussion of the OU metagame.

 

[Neosonic97]

Moving away from the derailing topic, what're everyone's thoughts on right now?

I do want to know how my favourite Pokemon period is faring right now.

 

[Anchor9]

Can we get a moderator to close discussion on Uber drops? It’s really annoying, and is distracting from genuine discussion of the OU metagame.

Before we do, can I nominate Zacian-C and Koraidon for a drop to OU? These two are DEFINITELY balanced. They can be countered by Skeledirge and Toxapex, as we see in Ubers. Scarf Enamorus can revenge-kill both of them. I think they would be a healthy addition to the Metagame.

 

[Hyjack]

Dragapult + Gholdengo could be a good pair of spinblockers. If Tusk is running Temper Flare for Ghold, it's missing Ice Spinner for Dragons. Thats all the news we have this Saturday. Mr. State The Obvious, signing off.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Before we do, can I nominate Zacian-C and Koraidon for OU drop. These two are DEFINITELY balanced. They can countered by Skeledirge and Toxapex, as we see in Ubers. Scarf Enamorus can revenge-kill both of them. I think they would be a healthy addition to the Metagame.

what about miraidon? i mean, ice spinner exists and that clears terrain, what's it supposed to do against tusk? and iron jugulis really needs a buff. plus, scarf enamorus revenge-kills it, and so does zac-c if that drops too. i mean, it's basically just a slightly faster version of raging bolt, right? and raging bolt even has priority that miraidon doesn't, so in some respects miraidon is the less broken one! we can just ban it again if it turns out to still be broken

 

[Neosonic97]

and iron jugulis really needs a buff.

Thank you for reminding me that we didn't get the Tapus back. That's just made me mad, especially since even without Ubers, Sun still has a great setter in Torkoal, while Electric Terrain has... Pinchurchin. Yeah.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Thank you for reminding me that we didn't get the Tapus back. That's just made me mad.

look on the bright side, at least you didn't name yourself after an ultra beast

 

[YubelVT]

Question for the chat.

What are your thoughts on the idea of dropping into the tier? A 100 BP Ghost Type move coming off of a 157 Special Attack stat is absolutely nuts, but is sorely lacking in both the defensive and even offensive department. 97/109/127 bulk is let down by a terrible defensive Typing, plaguing it with common weaknesses to Ghost and Dark, two immunities in Fighting and Normal and being smacked neutrally by just about everything else (Psychic and Poison are hardly relevant attacking options). 77 Speed is downright bad, especially so with as many weaknesses as this guy. Its movepool is colorful, but it lacks any means to hammer past Dark Type Pokemon. Especially considering that they're often faster than it ( being the one exception, but there's no shot in Hell it's getting past that).

I think Tera is what would push over the edge, since it would be free to shed its horrendous Defensive Typing for something like Fairy or Fighting, allowing it to finally muscle past Dark Types and fully make use of Prism Armor, which would otherwise be downright useless. (120% over 160% is still an OHKO).

I'm not advocating for a drop-- not yet anyways, till Tera's dealt with-- but I wanna see what y'all are thinking about this guy. I've never seen it talked about, which is especially strange considering it makes the likes of look like B+ material in Ubers.

Necrozma Dawn Wings is bad in ubers in part because you can't use it alongside Necrozma Dusk Mane. Base 157 Special Attack alongside a workable but not great speed stat and a fantastic offensive typing isn't ok to be allowed in OU, especially one with tera. Also the bulk isn't terrible either, 97 109 127 is pretty good even with a typing that is that bad. You do be having Prism Armor too, which slightly makes up for the terrible defensive profile.

Before we do, can I nominate Zacian-C and Koraidon for a drop to OU? These two are DEFINITELY balanced. They can be countered by Skeledirge and Toxapex, as we see in Ubers. Scarf Enamorus can revenge-kill both of them. I think they would be a healthy addition to the Metagame.

Don't forget ditto! Zacian-C definitely has a completely normal interaction with Ditto and is 100% balanced :>

 

[Flamestorm7]

Thank you for reminding me that we didn't get the Tapus back. That's just made me mad, especially since even without Ubers, Sun still has a great setter in Torkoal, while Electric Terrain has... Pinchurchin. Yeah.

Maybe they should have added a third gen 8 cross gen evo. PAINCURCHIN! THE ELECTRIC/DARK ANSWER TO EVERY FUTURE PARADOXES PRAYERS! Warning: Exposure to Paincurchin may cause spontaneous death due to Iron Valiant and Boulder. Please ask your doctor if Paincurchin is advisable for your meta game.

 

[Lethargic]

No i'm saying there are reasons in favor of dropping Lugia that are actually semi valid compared to some of the other ones we are talking about like Solgaleo, Giratina-A, and Necrozma Dawn Wings. Also for your information, I was one of the ones who thought Darkrai would just be fine down here and nothing too amazing, as it sounded way more op on paper than in practice

I literally was not responding to you what is your issue?

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Maybe they should have added a third gen 8 cross gen evo. PAINCURCHIN! THE ELECTRIC/DARK ANSWER TO EVERY FUTURE PARADOXES PRAYERS! Warning: Exposure to Paincurchin may cause spontaneous death due to Iron Valiant and Boulder. Please ask your doctor if Paincurchin is advisable for your meta game.

honestly, i'd run the hell out of eviolite pincurchin and i'm a little unnerved by what that says about me as a person

what it says is that i miss pyukumuku

 

[Cheryl.]

This thread is just intrusive thoughts of "hehe Ubers legends drops" and "oooo should I make a mildly funny at best reply to this post about Ubers drops, prolonging the derailment of the OU METAGAME DISCUSSION THREAD while also being against the discussion of Ubers drops" and the intrusive thoughts are winning badly.

Anyway onto the actual metagame, AV Hydrapple. Is it Tangrowth back in a new form or not Tangrowth? For real I think that set is actually quite amazing at the moment, it has wayyy more special bulk (106/80 to Tang's 100/50) at the cost of not being quite as physically tanky. I'd still say it can get the job done on the physical side though. With the help of Tera it can also wall a lot more stuff depending on what your team wants, and it has the broken Regen to stay alive. It's been doing quite well for me but I'd like to hear other's thoughts on the set or Hydrapple in general since it seems a bit overlooked in favor of stuff like HUR DURR SHAYMIN-S FOR 3 PAGES Gouging Fire, Archaludon, etc.

 

[yomaalt]

Before we do, can I nominate Zacian-C and Koraidon for a drop to OU? These two are DEFINITELY balanced. They can be countered by Skeledirge and Toxapex, as we see in Ubers. Scarf Enamorus can revenge-kill both of them. I think they would be a healthy addition to the Metagame.

92/115/115

Steel typing

Enamorus's ass gonna be doing nothing else but filling for bankruptcy the instant that worl touches the OU tour. Ival prolly gon be hoping zac switches into hazards like 17 times in a game so that CC can actually kill it. Oh wait yeah you right dirge walls. Pex loses to wild charge CC/tera ground.

look on the bright side, at least you didn't name yourself after an ultra beast

My goat kartana couldn't move the masses.... It's tragic how much gf hates the idea of kartana not losing to static :(

Anyways, uhh NDW is broken cause it has recovery + prism armor + solid bulk and a actual typing (anything is better then pure psychic), lugia doesn't have defog or knock, it STILL loses to dengo. Free my boy yveltal bro trust me lugia's fraud ass stole his passport and now we don't have a good dark/flying deffogger.....

Anyway onto the actual metagame, AV Hydrapple. Is it Tangrowth back in a new form or not Tangrowth? For real I think that set is actually quite amazing at the moment, it has wayyy more special bulk (106/80 to Tang's 100/50) at the cost of not being quite as physically tanky. I'd still say it can get the job done on the physical side though. With the help of Tera it can also wall a lot more stuff depending on what your team wants, and it has the broken Regen to stay alive. It's been doing quite well for me but I'd like to hear other's thoughts on the set or Hydrapple in general since it seems a bit overlooked in favor of stuff like HUR DURR SHAYMIN-S FOR 3 PAGES Gouging Fire, Archaludon, etc.

Ok i can see the vision....

252 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Hydrapple: 164-194 (39.4 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Problem, Enam breaks you via raw power, and both their cm sets get a +1 and you're forced to tera. Fairies aside, alot of special attackers usually have a sort of SE/Neutral coverage, in fire, fairy, ice, poison, etc.... in this metagame, and idk if you really wanna risk it. But whatever works works, so I'm going to promote you to sous-chef, keep cooking soldier.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Anyway onto the actual metagame, AV Hydrapple. Is it Tangrowth back in a new form or not Tangrowth? For real I think that set is actually quite amazing at the moment, it has wayyy more special bulk (106/80 to Tang's 100/50) at the cost of not being quite as physically tanky. I'd still say it can get the job done on the physical side though. With the help of Tera it can also wall a lot more stuff depending on what your team wants, and it has the broken Regen to stay alive. It's been doing quite well for me but I'd like to hear other's thoughts on the set or Hydrapple in general since it seems a bit overlooked in favor of stuff like Gouging Fire, Archaludon, etc.

i'm really liking hydrapple in general and it does give me some major tangrowth vibes (which is probably why). it doesn't have tangrowth's access to knock off or sleep powder, but it trades that off for special bulk, higher spa, solid coverage, setup capability sometimes if you run the chad nasty plot set, and one of the most hilarious signature moves ever made (bonus: it's actually good). overall, definitely a viable mon even if i'm not sure it'll end up ou for the whole rest of the gen