Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I feel like the only Uber currently that has some merit to dropping is Annihilape.
It was banned very early on, and with the new additions to the tier I could see it return. We now have a lot more Pokemon that returned to work with, new moves, new mechanics, and new Pokemon.
After a while I think it should be retested for OU, but not now as every one is playing with the new toys.

i dunno, there's a lot of multihits in the tier now that could allow annihilape to very quickly get out of hand (or, more accurately, out of fist). it's part of the reason why archaludon is such a good pick right now, but the difference is that archaludon's defense goes back to normal when you switch it out, while rage fist's power doesn't. also, deo-s and atales exist as screen-setting options now, and screens were always annihilape's bread and butter. lastly, we've gained nothing relevant that can switch into a 150-power +1 rage fist (far from an unreasonable amount of setup) and also take a +1 drain punch or close combat—zamazenta is probably your best bet, but i don't think it can break through annihilape at +1 defense before getting broken through itself. i think that overall more has changed to benefit annihilape than to hold it back, so i don't think it would be worth testing again this gen

 

[Return to Zero]

I feel like the only Uber currently that has some merit to dropping is Annihilape.
It was banned very early on, and with the new additions to the tier I could see it return. We now have a lot more Pokemon that returned to work with, new moves, new mechanics, and new Pokemon.
After a while I think it should be retested for OU, but not now as every one is playing with the new toys.

I wouldn't agree with this, actually. Annihilape's strengths aren't something that can be adapted to, really. I think I wrote about this in a post before, but to summarize, Annihilape is so one-dimensional that there's not really any outplaying it with new strategies. Either the metagame has big enough numbers to where it can't do its thing, or it doesn't. I think it doesn't.

Edit: Oh and Annihilape is Ubers by usage, i.e. not legal in UUbers right? That's probably telling.

 

[Rootb]

I just wanna really emphasize this post here: There is a gap between "Bad in Ubers" and "Good in OU". Sliding off the former does not immediately put you within distance of the latter. The difference in power level between OU and Ubers is much bigger than UU and OU, for example. Any environment where Dialga and Ho-oh and Deoxys-Attack are allowed to run off-leash is going to have a power floor that's a lot higher than OU's power ceiling of like, Kingambit and Latios. Being bad in Ubers has literally no bearing on if something is good in OU because up there base 90 Attack is unusably bad and down here it's enough to work with just a few boosts, hence why NP Deoxys-Speed is top tier viable right now. Do you want Palkia-Origin in this tier? No? Why not, when it's legal in UUbers? Because even if it's not good enough for Ubers, it's way too good for OU.

Fact of the matter is, Ubers it not a "real" tier. It exists, and you can play it, but its purpose is not to be a balanced metagame. It is OU's banlist. If it is a playable metagame, so much the better, but that's not why it exists. There's a reason Ubers' qualifications for banning something are so stupidly high that they've only banned like, three things ever. There is absolutely zero point in looking at usage or viability in Ubers as a way of seeing what would be good for OU because they're operating on fundamentally different scales here.

I'm not against hearing out posts about why Giratina or Lugia or Solgaleo would be balanced in OU. But I want those posts to be about how they would actually have decently splashable checks and wouldn't run roughshod over the entire metagame, not about now it's unviable in Ubers, because only one of those points means anything.

I think it's more that people have taken the wrong answer from UUbers existing. No, dropping to UUbers isn't a sign the mon might be bad -- it's just a sign that it's not one of the most busted things imaginable. But when a mon drops to UUbers, and is still mid at best there? That is a sign that there might be something to discuss. After all, it's not exactly difficult to be outclassed by mons like the Raidons, Kyogre and Zacian-C.

Once the cream has been separated, however, it's obvious which mons are really being held back. Magearna. Zacian. Palafin. Chi-Yu, Lando-I, All of the gen 4 dragons. The list goes on. The top of the tier is a whole lot of mons that are clearly too strong for OU, and anything up there absolutely does not need to be discussed for a drop down.

But down in B and C, with completely safe legends like Heatran, Cresselia, and Hoopa-U? That's the sweet spot for consideration. And, in fact, that's right where Darkrai was! Obviously, you can't make 1:1 comparisons between metagames, but if there's ever going to be a good place to start, that's where you're going to find it.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

But down in B and C, with completely safe legends like Heatran, Cresselia, and Hoopa-U? that's where there's at least a discussion to be had. And, in fact, that's right where Darkrai was! Obviously, you can't make 1:1 comparisons between metagames, but if there's ever going to be a good place to start, that's where you're going to find it.

i don't know if we can even safely say this, because there are some mons in the lower tiers of uubers that are absolutely not worthy of discussion at all—for example, arceus-bug, who is rated lower than cutiefly on the vr but would tear this tier apart with its bare buggy hands. i expect lugia to find itself down there too, because by ubers standards it's a meme and not even a funny one, but i don't want the point you made to be used as fuel for pro-lugia arguments, so we should clarify that citing uubers unviability as reason for unbanning something in ou is a heavily flawed argument at best. on the other hand, citing the fact that something is viable in uubers to argue against a drop is perfectly fine—if an uber can hold its own in a meta containing zacian and palkia-origin, there should be no question it belongs up there

 

[Return to Zero]

I think it's more that people have taken the wrong answer from UUbers existing. No, dropping to UUbers isn't a sign the mon might be bad -- it's just a sign that it's not one of the most busted things imaginable. But when a mon drops to UUbers, and is still mid at best there? That is a sign that there might be something to discuss. After all, it's not exactly difficult to be outclassed by mons like the Raidons, Kyogre and Zacian-C.

Once the cream has been separated, however, it's obvious which mons are really being held back. Magearna. Zacian. Palafin. Chi-Yu, Lando-I, All of the gen 4 dragons. The list goes on. The top of the tier is a whole lot of mons that are clearly too strong for OU, and anything up there absolutely does not need to be discussed for a drop down.

But down in B and C, with completely safe legends like Heatran, Cresselia, and Hoopa-U? That's the sweet spot for consideration. And, in fact, that's right where Darkrai was! Obviously, you can't make 1:1 comparisons between metagames, but if there's ever going to be a good place to start, that's where you're going to find it.

We don't have UUbers viability rankings for Solgaleo or Lugia, at least not yet, so that's jumping the gun a bit regardless.

I do agree that looking towards the bottom end of UUbers is better, but I still don't think it's a sound strategy. A lot of what's down there is contingent on what's unviable in Ubers because of its specific metagame. Fold to Miraidon? You're probably out. Beat Zacian? You're definitely in. That's why Arceus-Bug is mediocre in UUbers but Skeledirge is banned from it. And then there's the ones like Dialga-Origin that are there just because they're so drastically outclassed by their alternate forms. Point being, it's more complicated than just looking at UUbers VR and scrolling through everything ranked C or lower.

 

[Cuddly]

i dunno, there's a lot of multihits in the tier now that could allow annihilape to very quickly get out of hand (or, more accurately, out of fist). it's part of the reason why archaludon is such a good pick right now, but the difference is that archaludon's defense goes back to normal when you switch it out, while rage fist's power doesn't. also, deo-s and atales exist as screen-setting options now, and screens were always annihilape's bread and butter. lastly, we've gained nothing relevant that can switch into a 150-power +1 rage fist (far from an unreasonable amount of setup) and also take a +1 drain punch or close combat—zamazenta is probably your best bet, but i don't think it can break through annihilape at +1 defense before getting broken through itself. i think that overall more has changed to benefit annihilape than to hold it back, so i don't think it would be worth testing again this gen

I wouldn't agree with this, actually. Annihilape's strengths aren't something that can be adapted to, really. I think I wrote about this in a post before, but to summarize, Annihilape is so one-dimensional that there's not really any outplaying it with new strategies. Either the metagame has big enough numbers to where it can't do its thing, or it doesn't. I think it doesn't.

Edit: Oh and Annihilape is Ubers by usage, i.e. not legal in UUbers right? That's probably telling.

Some pretty valid points, but I'd like to make a bit of a counter.
-Stellar Type is likely the best reason as to why Annihilape would be fine now. Since Stellar type Tera Blast his based on if the opponent Teras or doesn't, it will be at least neutral to Annihilape and Super Effective when it Terastallizes, which is often the case. Enamorus being pretty excellent at that role as it hits super hard, is a Fairy type so Annihilape will likely Tera against it, and if they don't you still survive a hit easily and follow it up with even stronger Tera Blast thanks to Contrary.
-Psychic Noise is the other major thing I would like to say beats Annihilape. The move itself is just about the best means to completely shut down Annihilape. No leftovers. No rest. No Drain Punch, which can't be even selected. Damage dealt, which is super effective unless they Tera, can't be healed off for several turns. It's also a Special move, so no amount of Bulk Ups will be able to make it deal less damage. The only means for Annihilape to avoid this move is to Tera Dark, which only means Pokemon using Psychic Noise will just use Fairy or Fighting moves they commonly carry anyways. There is some conflict with this as most Psychic Noise users are Psychic and have to Tera to avoid Rage Fist, or need to be faster. But is Annihilape does Tera Dark, they could likely tank a Rage Fist that would be weaker.
-Alluring Voice is also an pseudo counterplay to Annihilape, as its a Fairy move hitting it super effectively when not Tera'd, and causing confusing when it bulk ups. The more important part is that it's a new Fairy move and prevents it from clicking bulk up all the time. It also has great user in Skeledirge who ignores stat boosts from Bulk Up and Defiant.
-And speaking of which, I don't think Ubers by usage is really that valid of an argument as plenty of perfectly fine OU Pokemon are in top 10 usage of Ubers.
I also don't see the harm in at least testing it inside tournaments as such, just like Darkrai. If the playerbase still thinks it's too powerful, then keep it banned.

 

[Rootb]

On the other hand, citing the fact that something is viable in uubers to argue against a drop is perfectly fine—if an uber can hold its own in a meta containing zacian and palkia-origin, there should be no question it belongs up there

Yeah, I think that's a better way to phrase it. It's easier to weed out what absolutely should not be lowered by looking at what's good in the absence of God's Arceus' strongest soldiers.

In no way is it sufficient to merely be bad, but it is a very strong requirement.

And just to avoid a really short second reply:

We don't have UUbers viability rankings for Solgaleo or Lugia, at least not yet, so that's jumping the gun a bit regardless.

I do agree that looking towards the bottom end of UUbers is better, but I still don't think it's a sound strategy. A lot of what's down there is contingent on what's unviable in Ubers because of its specific metagame. Fold to Miraidon? You're probably out. Beat Zacian? You're definitely in. That's why Arceus-Bug is mediocre in UUbers but Skeledirge is banned from it. And then there's the ones like Dialga-Origin that are there just because they're so drastically outclassed by their alternate forms. Point being, it's more complicated than just looking at UUbers VR and scrolling through everything ranked C or lower.

Arceus-Bug and Dialga-Origin are both alternate formes, though, aren't they? They're both lower in the VR because you can't use them alongside a second, better version of the mon. You have to pretty far up their VR to find something that isn't competing with itself, but is banned from OU.

 

[Ayman]

I must say that there is an unnecessarily strong obsession in this community to not unban any Pokemon. I don't know why that is. We all know that power creep has been massive every generation and therefore by sheer logic it's expected that many previously overpowered Pokemon would be perfectly fine in today's meta.

Darkrai being mid wasn't a surprise at all, idk why so many are saying it. Many of us knew it would be balanced for a long time now, since the Gen 7 Dark Void nerf. We were ridiculed then and now suddenly it's a "surprise"?

There are comments about how Genesect ended up being OP every gen. How is that relevant to today's meta which is drastically stronger now? Even for early banned mons like Annihilape, the meta is so different now with so many newer mons from the 2 DLCs in.

 

[TheTraininator]

Some people are missing the plot when it comes to Ubers drops; I agree with some of the posters above that it’s important to genuinely think about how an Uber interacts with OU when you talk about dropping it and not just focus on how it performs in the tier it currently resides in. For example, the reason Zamazenta-H dropped was because of its combination of lack of recovery, defensive typing with 0 utility, and incredible reliance on its mono-STAB to do any damage at all, whether that be Iron Defense-boosted Body Press or Choice Band-boosted Close Combat. When you actually took the time to evaluate its tools, it became obvious that the best Zamazenta could really do was be a good form of bulky speed control with a potential for a lategame sweep if positioned well, which wasn’t really anything the OU metagame couldn’t handle. Darkrai was also discussed to death because its theoretical offensive peak was kind of dependent on having the ability to set up, having Life Orb to boost its damage, possessing the right moves for a given game, not taking enough hazard damage to put itself into range of priority, and positioning itself well enough to come in lategame after all forms of speed control from the opponent were expended… and I mean, if you managed all of that correctly from the builder to the game, you’re just the better player and deserved the Darkrai sweep. Realistically, Darkrai was going to be forced into tamer but more consistent utility sets or Trick Choice sets that could exert a decent amount of pressure vs a variety of teamstyles, which was also nothing OU couldn’t handle.

Compare these two to the likes of Solgaleo, Lugia, and Dawn Wings Necrozma, and you’ll start to see that they don’t have a ton of overlap. For one thing, all three of the Pokémon being suggested have recovery options on top of their Uber-tier mixed bulk, meaning the positioning and longevity issues shared by Darkrai and Zamazenta are just not present here. Solgaleo also has actual defensive utility with its typing too, though admittedly that is a point against Lugia and Necrozma-DW. Additionally, Solgaleo and Necrozma have absolutely ludicrously powerful offensive movepools and strong dual-STABs, making them significantly more threatening with no setup or when clicking non-STAB moves than Zamazenta or Dakrai. Lugia’s base 90 special attack definitely bites it in the ass a bit here, but the ease at which it sets up multiple Calm Minds due to its unparalleled bulk and recovery access definitely goes a long way towards making up for its initial passivity. This generation has also had an issue with the potency of Stored Power + Tera, and Solgaleo and Necrozma would both be ludicrously good at abusing that due to the traits previously outlined combined with natural STAB on the move and an insane amount of boosting options.

This is really just scratching the surface since to do a thorough analysis you’d have to analyze all these sets and other ones alongside potential team support versus the entirety of the meta, which is a lot more effort than I’m willing to put forward at midnight for a minor discussion post like this, but even just from this minor analysis alone, the only one I think even has a chance at being reasonable is Lugia due to its combined reliance on setup and bad defensive typing, but I still think it would probably be too reliable at actually setting up for this point to matter too much, especially in combination with Tera. This isn’t even factoring in how ridiculously hard it is to break through a Lugia intent on Pressure stalling you.

 

[Eeveeto]

Shaymin-S is one of three Pokemon(?) to ever receive a 100% ban rate throughout Smogon's entire history.

And that matters 0, cause it was 4 or 5 generations ago. Meta changed, power creep got higher and the Hidden Power loss is relevant.
Sdef Corviknight, Sdef Zapdos, AV Glowking, AV Muk Alola, Rotom-H, Ice Shard Mons, weather/Booster Energy/Scarf Mons with Ice Moves, some Inner Focus Mons (like Dragonite, which when Intimidate is common, like in SS OU, is actually viable with the ability), etc. I am not saying it will be healthy, it would for sure be at least A+ Mon and maybe broken, but I do think there is enough counterplay to at least test the Mon... if it wasn't for Tera. Without Tera, it might still be broken, but with Tera its broken for sure, Tera is here what gives 0% chance of Shaymin-S being healthy, not Serene Grace, and not that speed.
This is all Theorymoning though, I am still Pro-Tera, so hopefully the situation in which a Shaymin-S test is possible never happens this Gen.

 

[Dreadfury]

Your Kyurem gets 5 Icicle Spear hits against your opponent's Annihilape and your entire team proceeds to fucking die. And God forbid you set up Webs when the mon comes packaged with Defiant and the bulk to eat a hit before inevitably going second. If you want this mon back you either have the memory of a goldfish or simply want to watch the world burn.

I don't think there's anything so incredibly wrong with this metagame that warrants unbanning anything extra at the moment (I could maybe justify Solgaleo of all things later on since that mon seems kinda ass), least of all Annihilape. Most folks seem very happy with Darkrai, Volcarona and Roaring Moon seem mostly manageable (but very scary) at the moment, and Deoxys-S is a mon that I've found myself genuinely warming up to thus far despite it being undoubtedly the best mon in the tier. Apart from January's Pecharunt event, the DLC waves are done (unless GF drops some crazy shit on us) and we finally have some semblance of a stable, salvageable metagame for the first time since the day before Walking Wake was released. Let's figure things out with the mons we have now (i.e. whether or not they're broken or otherwise unhealthy), with the current slate of unbanned mons, before we even think about dropping a nigh-unkillable mon with amazing bulk, some of the best Tera potential in the game, and unwallable STABs including a 300 BP Ghost move back down to OU.

 

[Cuddly]

Your Kyurem gets 5 Icicle Spear hits against your opponent's Annihilape and your entire team proceeds to fucking die. And God forbid you set up Webs when the mon comes packaged with Defiant and the bulk to eat a hit before inevitably going second. If you want this mon back you either have the memory of a goldfish or simply want to watch the world burn.

This argument imp feel very off.
For Icicle Spear, either;
-You Dragon Dance as they Switch in and KO without Stealth Rock 25% of the time
+1 252 Atk Kyurem Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Annihilape: 375-440 (89 - 104.5%) -- approx. 25% chance to OHKO
Single layer of spikes makes this a guaranteed OHKO
Also just immediately going for Icicle Spear 2HKO’s Annihilape and at worse deals 48.4%
-They switch while you Dragon Dance, but Reflect is up, or they manage to get annihilape out on same turn, or what have you
It kind of is your fault for using a multihit move knowing full well Annihilape would survive. You can Dragon Dance again, switch out, Terastallize to reduce Drain Punch’s damage and minimize healing, so you can 2HKO Annihilape.

And if you see Annihilape on the opposing team, WHY would you click Sticky Webs? Did Rothschild family pay your mouse’s manufacture you malfunction your mouse so you accidentally click Ribombee/Araquanid and then clicked Sticky Web?

There are reasons why Annihilape might still be ban worthy. “I intentionally screwed myself for seemingly no reason” is not one of them.

 

[StallingGood]

Honestly, I like this new meta, I can finally play sand teams :) also sun team is generally no skill at this point, basically half of the people I face these days is just get a damn torkal, put literally every past paradox in the team and bam, that's their team. That's why sand goog, Amen

 

[Return to Zero]

Some pretty valid points, but I'd like to make a bit of a counter.
-Stellar Type is likely the best reason as to why Annihilape would be fine now. Since Stellar type Tera Blast his based on if the opponent Teras or doesn't, it will be at least neutral to Annihilape and Super Effective when it Terastallizes, which is often the case. Enamorus being pretty excellent at that role as it hits super hard, is a Fairy type so Annihilape will likely Tera against it, and if they don't you still survive a hit easily and follow it up with even stronger Tera Blast thanks to Contrary.
-Psychic Noise is the other major thing I would like to say beats Annihilape. The move itself is just about the best means to completely shut down Annihilape. No leftovers. No rest. No Drain Punch, which can't be even selected. Damage dealt, which is super effective unless they Tera, can't be healed off for several turns. It's also a Special move, so no amount of Bulk Ups will be able to make it deal less damage. The only means for Annihilape to avoid this move is to Tera Dark, which only means Pokemon using Psychic Noise will just use Fairy or Fighting moves they commonly carry anyways. There is some conflict with this as most Psychic Noise users are Psychic and have to Tera to avoid Rage Fist, or need to be faster. But is Annihilape does Tera Dark, they could likely tank a Rage Fist that would be weaker.
-Alluring Voice is also an pseudo counterplay to Annihilape, as its a Fairy move hitting it super effectively when not Tera'd, and causing confusing when it bulk ups. The more important part is that it's a new Fairy move and prevents it from clicking bulk up all the time. It also has great user in Skeledirge who ignores stat boosts from Bulk Up and Defiant.
-And speaking of which, I don't think Ubers by usage is really that valid of an argument as plenty of perfectly fine OU Pokemon are in top 10 usage of Ubers.
I also don't see the harm in at least testing it inside tournaments as such, just like Darkrai. If the playerbase still thinks it's too powerful, then keep it banned.

-Stellar type as a whole is very niche and so far I've only seen genuine use cases for it on Serperior and Enamorus. Even then Annihilape sets go for max HP/Sp.D and they'll be able to live a pivotal move. Like:
252 SpA Choice Specs Enamorus Moonblast vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Annihilape: 372-438 (88.3 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
You have better odds than not of just living Enam's absolute strongest option against you, so imagine how it fares against anything weaker.
-Psychic Noise will never OHKO Annihilape, and you're also attacking it directly, so you're just making Rage Fist stronger. There's no guarantee that you aren't actually handing it the sweep trying to be fancy about stopping it from healing.
-Skeledirge's Unaware does not protect from Rage Fist gaining additional BP. Once again, attacking Annihilape directly means you're making it stronger. If it doesn't use Bulk Up that turn, the move is basically bouncing off of it anyway.
-OU Pokemon are good in Ubers if their niche isn't invalidated by the much higher power level of the format, i.e. Skeledirge being one of the best Ubers Pokemon in general despite being UU for a while there because it hard counters Zacian and some other stuff. What's Annihilape's niche though? Rage Fist. Dealing damage. That's all it does. That means that it's good enough at what it does to make the cutoff and be banned from UUbers. Of course this isn't a hard indication of anything, but it is, like I said, probably telling.

Arceus-Bug and Dialga-Origin are both alternate formes, though, aren't they? They're both lower in the VR because you can't use them alongside a second, better version of the mon. You have to pretty far up their VR to find something that isn't competing with itself, but is banned from OU.

I just bring them up to illustrate my larger point, that being unviable in Ubers has very little to do with how balanced something would be in OU since the metagame is so wildly different, and there's several different reasons something could be bad all the way down in UUbers but still not good for OU.

I must say that there is an unnecessarily strong obsession in this community to not unban any Pokemon. I don't know why that is. We all know that power creep has been massive every generation and therefore by sheer logic it's expected that many previously overpowered Pokemon would be perfectly fine in today's meta.

Darkrai being mid wasn't a surprise at all, idk why so many are saying it. Many of us knew it would be balanced for a long time now, since the Gen 7 Dark Void nerf. We were ridiculed then and now suddenly it's a "surprise"?

There are comments about how Genesect ended up being OP every gen. How is that relevant to today's meta which is drastically stronger now? Even for early banned mons like Annihilape, the meta is so different now with so many newer mons from the 2 DLCs in.

There were, what, six Ubers drops for Indigo Disk? And they're all being pretty well-received, Deoxys-Speed aside. Unbanning stuff isn't the issue, it's what people want to unban. Headass takes like "Giratina should be unbanned so we can have a viable Defog user" are the problem. I'll even admit I'm pretty far on the ban more stuff side of things and my perspective isn't too common, but that doesn't mean most arguments for Ubers drops here haven't been terrible.

 

[That_Dwayneee]

If I had a nickel for every time in metagame discussion someone brought up the idea of unbanning a fucking box art legendary that doesn’t see success in Ubers because of necrozma dusk mane as opposed to anything to do with its actual tools, I’d have two nickels. I swear to god I am fucking losing it because there is no way this has happened twice.

 

[Heatranator]

Man, this discussion is golden. People wanna drop things because "oh, it's bad in ubers" or "oh, x pokemon is similar, of course it will be the same just ignore the fact that it can flinch 60% of the fucking time". You know there is a reason why there is the phrase "If it's not 100% accurate, it's 50% accurate"? Also, running an inferior item for 1 or 2 mons specifically is not a good argument, shows that the mon(s) are broken.
Anways, I'd like to propose dropping magearna to OU because it has dropped to UUbers and the general power of the metagame is severly higher than the HOME metagame.

Ignore that it is the top mon in UUbers and would most likely destroy the tier so much that it would look like a mini terapagos. Dear god don't take this seriously that one commentator that is going to actually argue for it.

 

[flyingtaco]

Hey I wanted to start a discussion on Deoxys-Speed (and steer the discussion away from unbanning like Lugia), and why I think it's power level this gen is in line with the other top pokemon of this metagame and is not broken. First, some background. I usually lurk on Smogon, but I've been playing at high ladder (1800-1900s) quite a lot this gen, with many games since DLC2 dropped. I've played with a few different teams, with all the teams having counterplay to Deoxys-S. In fact, I think Deo-S is healthy for the meta, since IMO its best matchup is against HO.

First, the supporting sets, which include suicide lead and dual screens.
Deoxys-Speed @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Skill Swap/Psycho Boost

Deoxys-Speed @ Light Clay
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Taunt
- Psycho Boost

This is the set that I think is the best on Deoxys-S and has the least counterplay. This set does best into opposing hyper-offense or hazard weak teams.

Before we get into each archetype though, the most important counterplay to deoxys-S is using team preview to your advantage. Is the opposing team an HO? The deoxys is most likely a support set. Otherwise? It could be an offensive set.

Counterplay to the support sets:
Hyper Offense:

1. Samurott-H lead can anti-lead Deo-S quite well, trading either rocks for spikes + being up an Samurott-H, or using ceaseless edge on the second turn and trading stealth rocks + spikes for 2 spikes + a 1 mon advantage, trades which are usually good for the Samurott player.
2. Any setup threat like kyurem, DD roaring mon, gouging fire, etc forces the Deo-S player to make a 50-50 between taunting and setting up screens/hazards. Roaring moon is especially good at this since even if the deoxys is screens, its knock off cripples the Deo-S by knocking the light clay and doing like 80% through reflect.
3. Grimmsnarl (on dual screens teams). Generally outclassed by Pult and Ninetales-A, but if your Deoxys matchup is weak as a screens team, consider using Grimmsnarl.
4. If you really hate hazards/screens, you can use suicide lead iron treads to completely shit of Deo-S. Not only are you faster, you can spin the rocks away/knock the light clay off the Deo-S.

Offense:

1. Cinderace. It can come in later in a game and court change
2. Powerful priority like Rillaboom grassy glide and CB dragonite extreme speed can limit deo-S to 1 layer of hazards or 1 screen.
3. Tusk can spin the hazards away
4. Hatterene counters any lead set without skill swap and can nuzzle Deo-S, making it useless the rest of the game
5. Scarfers like Enamorus outspeed and limit Deo-S to 1 turn of setup.

Balance/Stall:

1. Let's be real, any competent balance team is prepared for hazard stack these days. You're essentially playing 6-5 against lead hazard Deo-S teams. Ting-Lu and Gliscor are way scarier for balance to face than Deo-S.
2. Ting-Lu especially has a good matchup against screens teams
3. IMO Deo-S is quite weak into fat.

Offensive Deo-S:
Deoxys-Speed @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Ghost/Psychic/Ice/Electric/Stellar
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Ice Beam
- Superpower/Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball/Thunderbolt/Energy Ball/whatever you want
- Mix and match the coverage you like, its still coming off of a base 95 (lol) Spa stat

Deoxys-Speed @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Psychic/Ghost/Electric/Stellar
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Psycho Boost
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Mix and match the coverage you like, its still coming off of a base 95 (lol) Spa stat

Now let's talk about Offensive deoxys-S, which I think is a B+ tier set and is outclassed by other actually good special attackers in the tier, like Iron valiant, darkrai, and enamorus. It mostly acts as an anti-offense mon, similar to Dnite or 4a Zamazenta. 95 offenses just don't cut it anymore in this meta, and Deo-S's bulk is so bad it kinda just dies to every faster mon and priority move in the game. Again, I will go over the various archetypes' counterplay to offensive Deo-S:

HO: Offensive Deo-S is just a revenge killer against HO that doesn't even work against Gambit and Dnite, given that at it's too weak to OHKO anything other than Zamazenta and Booster Tusk. This is a healthy contribution to the metagame. I never found myself struggling against offensive Deo-S when playing HO.

Offense: Offense should use its Booster Energy mons/scarfers and its priority to beat Deoxys. If Deo-S is life orb, it will chip itself into priority range quite quickly, and it sure as hell can't switch into anything on offense, so you should be able to outtrade it. If its boots, Deoxys is just really weak and doesn't threaten anything besides like Great Tusk and zamazenta, which poses a threat with tera steel Heavy Slam anyways.

Another problem that Deo-S faces is that it is way too prediction reliant for how hard it is to switch in safely. You can outpredict the Deoxys most of the time for how hard it is to switch in. And if you mispredict, its not too bad, since they had to sack a mon to get it in safely. Or, they used a pivoting move, but every wallbreaker can abuse teammates pivoting moves.

Balance/Fat: Into balance, it's even worse. You are completely hard walled by Ting-Lu, can't touch glowking, struggle against Heatran etc. For a mon that doesn't break balance and has 0 safe switch in opportunities, it is not a mon that I would consider putting on most teams.

In conclusion, Deo-S is a healthy part of the metagame and should settle as a versatile top-tier staple, but not anything overbearing for the metagame. SV players already know how to deal with hazard stack, such as with Bootspam, and Deo-S is not much better of a screens setter than Pult or Grimmsnarl or Ninetales-A. The 4 attacks or NP sets are kinda ass in my opinion, maybe they need more exploration. I've been loving DLC2 and think it's been the best meta of Gen 9 yet.

 

[Welcome to mars]

Going into the disk, i expected gamefreak to bring in some downright nasty power creep that force vgc and smogon into an permanent state of chaos, sending a majority of the pokemon that aren’t fast and hard hitting into the lower tiers forever, but now i think things are ok, the most stable and healthy this metagame has ever been, offensive and defensive are both viable and deoxys speed is the only pokemon i consider to be worth a test, as a result of this metagame being so peaceful, i am 100% certain that magearna would be bad for the tier and thus shouldn’t even be discussed, the reason i could see being tested was because i thought raging neck would be fast and i didn’t know what its move was capable of (didn’t see the trailer) and that psychic noise would bring a maximum offensive metagame which would be capable of handling mag, so yeah, keep the youtube moderator behind bars regardless of what magnezone, volcanion, hydreigon and ursaluna have to say about the matter

 

[Neosonic97]

Unrelated to the shitshow above, I swear to god showdown fucked up the accuracy calculations for sub 100% accurate moves when they added DLC2 mons. They probably didn't but good god dracos have been missing way more often than normal and I just want someone to either check and make sure or tell me I'm just getting unlucky (but be nice please)

I really think you are getting unlucky. I've had that sort of horrible, horrible luck as far back as Gen 6- ESPECIALLY when it comes to Draco Meteors. Let me put it this way: If I had a nickel for every time I lost a battle because my Hydreigon missed three Draco Meteors in a row, I'd have two nickels, but I think we can agree it's weird it happened twice.

And yes, it was two separate Hydreigons- one in X/Y, and one in Sw/Sh.

Also, in response to more recent posts how the hell did me pondering for a brief moment and then immediately going "Wait, no, that's a terrible idea" lead to people actually legitimately wanting in the tier?

Look, I may be a fan of Shaymin in general (my favourite mythical, actually), but come on people. There's a reason why when Skymin was initially dropped in Gen 5, it was voted out of the tier with not a single dissenter. It made the entire community, divided as it is, agree unanimously on the fact that it needed to go.

 

[Pokenar]

On the subject of bans, I agree that this feels rather stable and we don't need an immediate quick-ban, and can wait for surveys

On the subject of unbans, I feel its a very polarized discussion. Something like Shaymin-S shouldn't come back, not because its strong, but because its unfun to deal with a fast serene grace air slasher. For others though, I feel a more formalized way to test something to see if its worth doing a full suspect test on should be created. Something like Darkrai where its unbanned for a tournament and we see how it performs.

 

[peepeepoopoo722]

I dont think at all that skymin would be ok in OU... unless perhaps if solageo somehow came back... I think if we were to discuss any unbans at all we should dial it in on the most likely, which isn't skymin.. I guess it could be lugia but I think most likely is urshifu-r...

252 Atk Punching Glove Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stamina Archaludon on a critical hit: 47-56 (12.2 - 14.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Archaludon makes urshifu r afraid to use its signature move- +3 stamina boost turns close combat into a 25-29% move while body press turns into a near OHKO.

We have a lot of swords dance + cc mons. Yawn.

Serperior, longraikou, droxys s. overall speed of the game, rilla etc makes urshifu the most likely we could retry.

I'm online right now with the same team I've been using all week if anyone wants to challenge me and show me I'm wrong about urshifu-r?

 

[BolTingBlazie]

View attachment 582753

(Forgive me for the ancient meme)

I’m not opposed to a Gholdengo suspect, but I don’t think it’d be as productive at helping with the hazards problem this gen as people believe it would. Corviknight being more consistent at Defogging would certainly be nice, but that’s kind of the one major “viable” Defogger made significantly worse by Ghold. National Dex OU actually has Defoggers worth banning Gholdengo over, which is why Ghold’s ban makes sense in that format. I think to best make a case for a ban of Gholdengo, you’d have to argue about its impact on the metagame at large instead of just in terms of its impact on hazard removal, and while I think it would have been easier to make such a case in previous metas, it feels like a harder sell in DLC2 meta.

Technically, it would make the problem way easier to deal with as Gholdengo is the best rapid spin blocker we have ever gotten. Anyway, the moment Ghold goes rapid spinners become a whole hell of a lot better in the meta as Dragapult is way easier for fat teams to pressure than Ghold, and it can't spinblock nearly as well due to its less than stellar bulk. We actually do have plenty of spinners, but spin isn't viable because Ghold exists and blocks both Mortal and Rapid Spin. If we ban Ghold rapid spin usage would skyrocket off of that alone, which probably is a really good thing.


Also on the topic of unbanning stuff down the line, Sogaleo is now a no from me, as Sogaleo isn't passive at all in any way and can become a crit me not demon with good offensive stats to boot thanks to having cosmic power and respectable offensive stats, as well as plenty of ways to set up. Seems like a no from me.

Lugia is the only box legend besides Zamazenta-C that might be balanced and have a chance at dropping, and even then it would probably be obnoxious if it were to drop if it isn't broken. I do think any sort of legendary suspect should wait until after the inevitable tera suspect though. Those two have genuine arguments for dropping, even if they would both be obnoxious like everyone has said.

On the topic of Dawn Wings, absolutely not, that Mon would just be Terapagos 2 to be honest. Its only shit in Ubers because Dusk Mane exists.

 

[TCTphantom]

All the past few pages has convinced me on is that we need a Gods Among Us tour again. Let people have their few games where we drop Solgaleo, Giratina, Annihilape, Palafin, or what have you. An informal tour like that coming back would make it so much easier for people to come to conclusions on the mons instead of having pages upon pages of sus discussion. It almost gives me imposter syndrome.

amogus joke aside, maybe we should start that fun series up again in the future. Let people who want to see Dawn Wings, Urshifu, or Skymin in action get their wish. Data is useful and would make a lot of this discussion feel a bit less circular.

 

[aeladoodles]

i love skymin, but seeing as its main function is to raise your resting heart rate and spike your blood pressure by being an rng-fishing little shit, OU is probably better off without it regardless of what its other aspects might indicate.

 

[Superior Serperior]

Primarina
​

Primarina can run multiple sets and is one of the better Pokemon in OU right now - Assault Vest, Specs, Utility, Calm Mind. It has a fantastic stat spread for the current meta and Water/Fairy is both offensively and defensively potent. 80/116 Special Defense is great, Liquid Voice is incredible when combined with Alluring Voice, Moonblast, Shadow Ball, Flip Turn, Ice Beam, Energy Ball, Encore, Draining Kiss, Haze, Screens, Psychic Noise, and so many additional options. 126 Special Attack is pretty cool too.

I honestly think we should all start considering Primarina an actual part of OU, and not just a niche option. It's incredibly common right now and it's really good. It needs further exploration because it's dismantling multiple archetypes right now when combined with some of OU's most potent threats. Kingambit + Primarina is also a brutal combination.

Quick question about those Assault Vest sets: are there any particular ev spreads for it? I've just been running max spa, but I wonder if I could optimize it's bulk better.
I've also found it paired really nicely with Rillaboom, since gterrain provides passive healing it wouldn't have otherwise.
That said, I've been trying out Coballion and it's kinda nice as a fast hazard setter. Think iron treads, but with STAB bpress.

Cobalion @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Body Press
- Iron Head
- Volt Switch
- Stealth Rock

This probably isn't at all optimal, but it's fun to pilot for the most part.

Overall I like how this meta feels. It can be frustrating at times dealing with Gholdengo because everyone preps for tusk as the most common spinner (very frustrating when people are running tera ghost solely for spin blocking because Ghold shuts down defog simply by existing. Ran into a tera ghost great tusk one game. in some cases their tera ghost ruins their defensive profile, making it easier to win, but a lot of the time it's added frustration), but that aside there's a freedom of creativity that was sorely lacking in the other metas. Balance doesn't feel so strained anymore, and as someone who almost exclusively plays it (bit of semistall on the side), it's a welcome change.