Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

[1234hjkl]

Since the topic about unbanning Uber mons came up, I wanna make a nomination to drop what I think it's the shittiest and most pathetic Uber mon. No It's not Zama-C, Solagaleo, Reshiram or one of the UUbers, I'm talking real garbage, i'm talking about Lugia.

Lugia already been falling down a long time since I dunno.... Gen 6, but this gen I believe gave Lugia the final nail to it's coffin, it lost 3 moves it liked a lot: Toxic, Thunder Wave and Defog. Lugia is a passive piece of shit, it's main use was a glorified punchbang and maybe throw a Toxic or a ice beam in a unsuspecting Zyg100, now it lost one of the few moves who allowed it to breach it's passivity and not make it flat out lose to Pink Blobs, Unaware mons and in general bulky mons.

Now I know some may look at his stats and think I'm outta my mind, but no, Lugia has below average offensive stats, a bad defensive and offensive type and while it's abilities are very good for a bulky mon like it, it still can't put good pressure in it's opponents, it can't recover endlessly like before because the recovery nerf, 110 speed doesn't look impressive nowadays with all the fast mons in the tier, the horrible type offeset it's high defenses and make it rocks weak and propense to every kind of status and bait for some of the best mons in the tier like Hamurott, Gambit, Dhengo, Darkrai, Boulder, R.Bolt, Arch etc. While Lugia has two good set up moves in Calm Mind and Curse, it's so weak offensively it needs to Tera to not fold to those very dangerous threats and get some set up opportunitties, and why waste your Tera in a glorified punch bag when you can use on one of the actual good mons.

"But if it's so bad, why do you wanna bring in here? The tier is too volatile right now, no need for another UUber." I wanna bring it here exactly because I think it will do some good for the tier. While I really believe it's garbage as both an offensive mon and mid as a defensive one I still think it could help in contain some dangerous threats, in a pinch it could be a good check for valiant, another decent phaser for the tier which in my opinion needs a lot with all the dangerous set-up sweepers like Moon, G.Fire, etc.

TL/DR: Lugia is not a UUber, more like a RUber, but, it might help our tier get some breating space of all the the offensive mons and it I don't believe it will become unhealthy between bad type, low power, loss of critical moves like T-Wave and Toxic and overall looking kinda Tera-reliant.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

phrasing

oh, sorry, what i meant was that kyurem can very easily drain your pp completely dry no matter the size, and it can do it more safely by using protection. hopefully that's a better way of saying it

The main thing I disagree with in your post is the mention of .

I don't see it being healthy in OU. Too much bulk on an actually good defensive typing, (and no, comparisons to don't work, as the sun lion has 57 more base HP than Metagross) to say nothing about its wide movepool (remember, a ridiculously wide movepool alongside uber-tier stats is what eventually got banned- YES, I know it doesn't quite have the one-button wonder of Tera Starstorm OR Stored Power for that manner). Especially since it also has reliable recovery (and sun is the best weather in the meta right now, making Morning Sun even better) AND Cosmic Power.

You'd be giving Sun Teams even more carte blanche to wreak havoc on the tier, moreso than they already are with things like Gouging Fire, Raging Bolt and the return of Venusaur. It'd give Sun Teams the mother of all defensive pivots.

yes, i have to agree here, solgaleo would absolutely not be acceptable in ou in any way, shape, or form. the only reason people are broaching this topic is because it's completely unviable in ubers, and the only reason it's so unviable there is because necrozma-dm does literally every job it can do better—solgaleo did in fact see some usage in sm ubers, before necrozma got its sparkly new forms, and although it wasn't a top-tier mon there (iirc it hovered around b-c on the vr), it definitely is a full-fledged uber in the absence of necrozma

Since the topic about unbanning Uber mons came up, I wanna make a nomination to drop the shittiest and mos pathetic Uber mon. No It's not Zama-C, Solagaleo, Reshiram or one of the UUbers, I'm talking real garbage, i'm talking about Lugia.

Lugia already been falling down a long time since I dunno.... Gen 6, but this gen I believe gave Lugia the final nail to it's coffin, it lost 3 moves it liked a lot: Toxic, Thunder Wave and Defog. Lugia is a passive piece of shit, it's main use was a glorified punchbang and maybe throw a Toxic or a ice beam in a unsuspecting Zyg100, now it lost one of the few moves who allowed it to breach it's passivity and not make it flat out lose to Pink Blobs, Unaware mons and in general bulky mons.

Now I know some may look at his stats and think I'm outta my mind, but no, Lugia has below average offensive stats, a bad defensive and offensive type and while it's abilities are very good for a bulky mon like it, it still can't put good pressure in it's opponents, it can't recover endlessly like before because the recovery nerf, 110 speed doesn't look impressive nowadays with all the fast mons in the tier, the horrible type offeset it's high defenses and make it rocks weak and propense to every kind of status and bait for some of the best mons in the tier like Hamurott, Gambit, Dhengo, Darkrai, Boulder, R.Bolt, Arch etc. While Lugia has two good set up moves in Calm Mind and Curse, it's so weak offensively it needs to Tera to not fold to those very dangerous threats and get some set up opportunitties, and why waste your Tera in a glorified punch bag when you can use on one of the actual good mons.

"But if it's so bad, why do you wanna bring in here? The tier is too volatile right now, no need for another UUber." I wanna bring it here exactly because I think it will do some good for the tier. While I really believe it's garbage as both an offensive mon and mid as a defensive one I still think it could help in contain some dangerous threats, in a pinch it could be a good check for valiant, another decent phaser for the tier which in my opinion needs a lot with all the dangerous set-up sweepers like Moon, G.Fire, etc.

TL/DR: Lugia is not a UUber, more like a RUber, but, it might help our tier get some breating space of all the the offensive mons and it I don't believe it will become unhealthy between bad type, low power, loss of critical moves like T-Wave and Toxic and overall looking kinda Tera-reliant.

while it's true that lugia lost a lot in the transferpocalypse, it was only passive by ubers standards—it would end up being a devastating and nigh-indestructible calm mind sweeper here, similarly to gira-a

 

[UnholyKidd]

There are other Ubers Pokemon that could potentially be tested in OU down the line in my opinion (such as ), but Skymin is not one of them in any way, shape, or form.

Specifically picking out the Solgaleo here, because i think its very interesting.
First of all, its typing, on first glance super good, is actually not THAT great. Steel Psychic, while giving you resists and immunities to: Poison, Dragon, Fairy, Normal, Psychic, Ice, Rock, Grass, Flying and Steel, also gives you weaknesses to Ghost, Dark and Ground, which, in my book, are very big weaknesses.

Plus, it practically doesnt have an ability outside of facing down Intimidate users. I cant think of much use for negation of stat drops outside of intimidate, webs and denying random secondary effects cheese.

Just, i think the issue in unbanning it lies in its stats and movepool primarily.
137/107/89 defenses really are not that bad, in fact even quite good.
137/113/97 offenses are really solid. All these stats together outmatch pretty much everything in OU.
The bulk is practically on a level similar to Ting-Lu (not counting its ability), while offensively its on the level of Metagross and Kingambit just stats wise.
We are talking about unbanning a pokemon thats got a slightly higher ATK stat than Kingambit, significantly more speed, and significantly more special attack and bulk.

But Solgaleo's reasons not to be unbanned dont end there.
Having a 100BP 100% acc Steel STAB is really good, besides access to Psychic Fangs, giving it very solid STAB moves.
Just... Its got a bit of coverage.. CC, Crunch, EQ, Flare Blitz, Knock, Outrage, Rock Slide, Stone Edge...
Its got so many moves i think you can design Band sets or LO sets to hit the entire metagame with ease. And, those would do a lot of damage.

And theres more.
This bad boy gets recovery in Morning Sun.

But, not all is lost.
I actually do think that that would be all Solgaleo has going for it, and with the introduction of Gouging Fire and Great Tusk running rampant, as well as Sun being so prevalent, I do believe that Solgaleos bulk would be put to the challenge.

Being hit super effectively by some of the most common types right now, I do think giving Solgaleo a shot would be a valid option, that would immediately backfire once Sun loses some prominence.

So, +1 from me to try Solgaleo

 

[Casteliacone]

not even 2 weeks into the new meta and we're already back to discussing unbanning ubers mons, the OU forum truly is one of the places ever. I've been haing fun with this silly little balance team I've made though, hydrapple really is him honestly (willfully ignoring volc and gambit absolutely carrying this team https://pokepast.es/c1aa8e86e76daa6d), any feedback would be appreciated though

 

[UnusualBoy]

Since the topic about unbanning Uber mons came up, I wanna make a nomination to drop what I think it's the shittiest and most pathetic Uber mon. No It's not Zama-C, Solagaleo, Reshiram or one of the UUbers, I'm talking real garbage, i'm talking about Lugia.

Lugia already been falling down a long time since I dunno.... Gen 6, but this gen I believe gave Lugia the final nail to it's coffin, it lost 3 moves it liked a lot: Toxic, Thunder Wave and Defog. Lugia is a passive piece of shit, it's main use was a glorified punchbang and maybe throw a Toxic or a ice beam in a unsuspecting Zyg100, now it lost one of the few moves who allowed it to breach it's passivity and not make it flat out lose to Pink Blobs, Unaware mons and in general bulky mons.

Now I know some may look at his stats and think I'm outta my mind, but no, Lugia has below average offensive stats, a bad defensive and offensive type and while it's abilities are very good for a bulky mon like it, it still can't put good pressure in it's opponents, it can't recover endlessly like before because the recovery nerf, 110 speed doesn't look impressive nowadays with all the fast mons in the tier, the horrible type offeset it's high defenses and make it rocks weak and propense to every kind of status and bait for some of the best mons in the tier like Hamurott, Gambit, Dhengo, Darkrai, Boulder, R.Bolt, Arch etc. While Lugia has two good set up moves in Calm Mind and Curse, it's so weak offensively it needs to Tera to not fold to those very dangerous threats and get some set up opportunitties, and why waste your Tera in a glorified punch bag when you can use on one of the actual good mons.

"But if it's so bad, why do you wanna bring in here? The tier is too volatile right now, no need for another UUber." I wanna bring it here exactly because I think it will do some good for the tier. While I really believe it's garbage as both an offensive mon and mid as a defensive one I still think it could help in contain some dangerous threats, in a pinch it could be a good check for valiant, another decent phaser for the tier which in my opinion needs a lot with all the dangerous set-up sweepers like Moon, G.Fire, etc.

TL/DR: Lugia is not a UUber, more like a RUber, but, it might help our tier get some breating space of all the the offensive mons and it I don't believe it will become unhealthy between bad type, low power, loss of critical moves like T-Wave and Toxic and overall looking kinda Tera-reliant.

Why would you want something with those defenses here? It has utility, set up moves and the bulk to make that work. Lugia has no business in the tier.

 

[Morkal]

phrasing
What are everyone's thoughts on Gliscor? I haven't played new meta that much but I don't feel that anything major has changed about the difficulty of killing gliscor and removing hazards. The only slight nerf is that gholdengo isn't doing quite as well right now, which makes the Gliscor-Gholdengo core not as common. It's still just as annoying to me as it was pre DLC, but maybe i'm not innovating enough or missing forms of counterplay.

My main problem with right now is that its weaker Special Defense is really clipping its wings right now. Gliscor falls pretty neatly to slew of Special Attackers dominating the meta right now, and Ice-type coverage/STAB is more common than ever, meaning that Gliscor feels pressured to Tera. Although now, Tera Water isn't as much of a safe bet because it leaves you open to getting whomped by Pokemon like Raging Bolt and Gliscor's Protect can be preyed upon by boosting sweepers such as Nasty Plot Darkrai/Deo-S (in addition to what you mentioned about being comparatively worse in this meta). Gliscor is great, but not OP like in DLC1 imo.

The main thing I disagree with in your post is the mention of .

I don't see it being healthy in OU. Too much bulk on an actually good defensive typing, (and no, comparisons to don't work, as the sun lion has 57 more base HP than Metagross) to say nothing about its wide movepool (remember, a ridiculously wide movepool alongside uber-tier stats is what eventually got banned- YES, I know it doesn't quite have the one-button wonder of Tera Starstorm OR Stored Power for that manner). Especially since it also has reliable recovery (and sun is the best weather in the meta right now) AND Cosmic Power.

You'd be giving Sun Teams even more carte blanche to wreak havoc on the tier, moreso than they already are with things like Gouging Fire, Raging Bolt and the return of Venusaur.

yes, i have to agree here, solgaleo would absolutely not be acceptable in ou in any way, shape, or form. the only reason people are broaching this topic is because it's completely unviable in ubers, and the only reason it's so unviable there is because necrozma-dm does literally every job it can do better—solgaleo did in fact see some usage in sm ubers, before necrozma got its sparkly new forms, and although it wasn't a top-tier mon there (iirc it hovered around b-c on the vr), it definitely is a full-fledged uber in the absence of necrozma.

Specifically picking out the Solgaleo here, because i think its very interesting.
First of all, its typing, on first glance super good, is actually not THAT great. Steel Psychic, while giving you resists and immunities to: Poison, Dragon, Fairy, Normal, Psychic, Ice, Rock, Grass, Flying and Steel, also gives you weaknesses to Ghost, Dark and Ground, which, in my book, are very big weaknesses.

Plus, it practically doesnt have an ability outside of facing down Intimidate users. I cant think of much use for negation of stat drops outside of intimidate, webs and denying random secondary effects cheese.

Just, i think the issue in unbanning it lies in its stats and movepool primarily.
137/107/89 defenses really are not that bad, in fact even quite good.
137/113/97 offenses are really solid. All these stats together outmatch pretty much everything in OU.
The bulk is practically on a level similar to Ting-Lu (not counting its ability), while offensively its on the level of Metagross and Kingambit just stats wise.
We are talking about unbanning a pokemon thats got a slightly higher ATK stat than Kingambit, significantly more speed, and significantly more special attack and bulk.

But Solgaleo's reasons not to be unbanned dont end there.
Having a 100BP 100% acc Steel STAB is really good, besides access to Psychic Fangs, giving it very solid STAB moves.
Just... Its got a bit of coverage.. CC, Crunch, EQ, Flare Blitz, Knock, Outrage, Rock Slide, Stone Edge...
Its got so many moves i think you can design Band sets or LO sets to hit the entire metagame with ease. And, those would do a lot of damage.

And theres more.
This bad boy gets recovery in Morning Sun.

But, not all is lost.
I actually do think that that would be all Solgaleo has going for it, and with the introduction of Gouging Fire and Great Tusk running rampant, as well as Sun being so prevalent, I do believe that Solgaleos bulk would be put to the challenge.

Being hit super effectively by some of the most common types right now, I do think giving Solgaleo a shot would be a valid option, that would immediately backfire once Sun loses some prominence.

So, +1 from me to try Solgaleo

To be clear, I'm not advocating for a Solgaleo retest right now, it's way too early - I'm saying that it's a potential candidate down the line if we are looking to bring things down. To explain a little further though if we are going down that road - the reason I singled out is due to three specific qualities -

• Exploitable speed, typing, and natural special bulk - sure, Solgaleo has great stats - but like with Zamazenta the distribution is quite wonky. Solgaleon wants to be faster and base 97 speed is decent but frustrating by OU standards - being outsped by Cinccino, Cinderace, Comfey, Darkrai, Deo-S, Dragapult, Enamorus, Entei, Flygon, Galvantula, Garchomp, Greninja, Iron Boulder, Iron Crown, Iron Moth, Iron Valiant, Keldeo, Latias, Latios, Manaphy, Meowstic, Ribombee, Roaring Moon, Serperior, Tentacruel, Terrakion, Volcarona, Walking Wake, Zamazenta, and Zapdos - a lot of these Pokemon Solgaleo does NOT want to be outsped by.
• Extreme 4MSS and lack of access to specific moves that it really wants. If Solgaleo got access to Body Press, Swords Dance, Trailblaze, or Stored Power, we wouldn't be having this conversation, but in terms of boosting moves, it has Calm Mind (which can be decent, albeit underwhelming), Iron Defense (nothing to exploit it with), Agility (probably Solgaleo's best-boosting move for mixed variants). Solgaleo has great coverage but generally has problems slotting it onto a single set due to said 4MSS. On most sets, you'd have to run Morning Sun for recovery - but then boosting sets only have an option for two attacking moves, and Solgaleo would likely only use one of its STABs.
• Bad meta matchups - having weaknesses to Ground, Dark, Fire, and Ghost-type attacks would make Solgaleo feel tera-reliant in this current meta as it tends to be worn down by powerful attacks. While this is somewhat mitigated with Morning Sun, that's, again, another slot that Solgaleo has to fill on its moveset.

All of those qualities (plus some others I'm sure I'm forgetting to mention) leads me to believe that Solgaleo would actually slot nicely into the OU meta and could be worthy of a test down the line.

Since the topic about unbanning Uber mons came up, I wanna make a nomination to drop what I think it's the shittiest and most pathetic Uber mon. No It's not Zama-C, Solagaleo, Reshiram or one of the UUbers, I'm talking real garbage, i'm talking about Lugia.

Lugia already been falling down a long time since I dunno.... Gen 6, but this gen I believe gave Lugia the final nail to it's coffin, it lost 3 moves it liked a lot: Toxic, Thunder Wave and Defog. Lugia is a passive piece of shit, it's main use was a glorified punchbang and maybe throw a Toxic or a ice beam in a unsuspecting Zyg100, now it lost one of the few moves who allowed it to breach it's passivity and not make it flat out lose to Pink Blobs, Unaware mons and in general bulky mons.

Now I know some may look at his stats and think I'm outta my mind, but no, Lugia has below average offensive stats, a bad defensive and offensive type and while it's abilities are very good for a bulky mon like it, it still can't put good pressure in it's opponents, it can't recover endlessly like before because the recovery nerf, 110 speed doesn't look impressive nowadays with all the fast mons in the tier, the horrible type offeset it's high defenses and make it rocks weak and propense to every kind of status and bait for some of the best mons in the tier like Hamurott, Gambit, Dhengo, Darkrai, Boulder, R.Bolt, Arch etc. While Lugia has two good set up moves in Calm Mind and Curse, it's so weak offensively it needs to Tera to not fold to those very dangerous threats and get some set up opportunitties, and why waste your Tera in a glorified punch bag when you can use on one of the actual good mons.

"But if it's so bad, why do you wanna bring in here? The tier is too volatile right now, no need for another UUber." I wanna bring it here exactly because I think it will do some good for the tier. While I really believe it's garbage as both an offensive mon and mid as a defensive one I still think it could help in contain some dangerous threats, in a pinch it could be a good check for valiant, another decent phaser for the tier which in my opinion needs a lot with all the dangerous set-up sweepers like Moon, G.Fire, etc.

TL/DR: Lugia is not a UUber, more like a RUber, but, it might help our tier get some breating space of all the the offensive mons and it I don't believe it will become unhealthy between bad type, low power, loss of critical moves like T-Wave and Toxic and overall looking kinda Tera-reliant.

I get what you're going for here, but honestly I have to agree with UnusualBoy that the bulk combined with utility is simply too much. If Lugia didn't have Multiscale I could potentially see it, but its defenses with multiscale + vast movepool are too bulky for the tier, it would be a GSC OU Celebi type of situation where it simply just wouldn't die + has the option to set up, phase, and do so much without feeling 4MSS.

 

[UnholyKidd]

Since the topic about unbanning Uber mons came up, I wanna make a nomination to drop what I think it's the shittiest and most pathetic Uber mon. No It's not Zama-C, Solagaleo, Reshiram or one of the UUbers, I'm talking real garbage, i'm talking about Lugia.

Lugia already been falling down a long time since I dunno.... Gen 6, but this gen I believe gave Lugia the final nail to it's coffin, it lost 3 moves it liked a lot: Toxic, Thunder Wave and Defog. Lugia is a passive piece of shit, it's main use was a glorified punchbang and maybe throw a Toxic or a ice beam in a unsuspecting Zyg100, now it lost one of the few moves who allowed it to breach it's passivity and not make it flat out lose to Pink Blobs, Unaware mons and in general bulky mons.

Now I know some may look at his stats and think I'm outta my mind, but no, Lugia has below average offensive stats, a bad defensive and offensive type and while it's abilities are very good for a bulky mon like it, it still can't put good pressure in it's opponents, it can't recover endlessly like before because the recovery nerf, 110 speed doesn't look impressive nowadays with all the fast mons in the tier, the horrible type offeset it's high defenses and make it rocks weak and propense to every kind of status and bait for some of the best mons in the tier like Hamurott, Gambit, Dhengo, Darkrai, Boulder, R.Bolt, Arch etc. While Lugia has two good set up moves in Calm Mind and Curse, it's so weak offensively it needs to Tera to not fold to those very dangerous threats and get some set up opportunitties, and why waste your Tera in a glorified punch bag when you can use on one of the actual good mons.

"But if it's so bad, why do you wanna bring in here? The tier is too volatile right now, no need for another UUber." I wanna bring it here exactly because I think it will do some good for the tier. While I really believe it's garbage as both an offensive mon and mid as a defensive one I still think it could help in contain some dangerous threats, in a pinch it could be a good check for valiant, another decent phaser for the tier which in my opinion needs a lot with all the dangerous set-up sweepers like Moon, G.Fire, etc.

TL/DR: Lugia is not a UUber, more like a RUber, but, it might help our tier get some breating space of all the the offensive mons and it I don't believe it will become unhealthy between bad type, low power, loss of critical moves like T-Wave and Toxic and overall looking kinda Tera-reliant.

At first i completely left Lugia out of contention, but you bring up good points. It lost a lot of moves it really liked. However, I see one large issue.
It might not be nearly as passive in OU with these stats. I think it would definitely be seeing more play than Tusk and Kingambit due to its tankiness, BUT, I dont think it would be outright Overpowered as I see it fit 3 roles:
Screens Setter (A really bulky mon with access to relfect and light screen), it could setup screens several times a game, severely slowing down the metagame potentially.
Defensive check to anything, Multiscale allows it to survive anything, and phaze with whirlwind or hit back strongly with a potentially super effective attack
And Wincon. Lugia gets access to Calm Mind, which could allow it to boost up and turn its base 90 special attack to a massive cannon with Aeroblast crits and psyshock to beat special walls.

 

[1234hjkl]

while it's true that lugia lost a lot in the transferpocalypse, it was only passive by ubers standards—it would end up being a devastating and nigh-indestructible calm mind sweeper here, similarly to gira-a

Not really, Lugia can't get pass through any of the Unaware mons for start with and it has problems getting through some of the best defensive mons in the tier. What is gonna do to Ting-Lu? How is gonna get through Archaludon? How is it getting thorugh stall? Hell it's set up bait for some of the best mons in the tier like Volca, Ghambit, Dhengo, etc. It's not breaking anything with calm mind, Latias is a way scary bulk calm mind mon than Lugia.

Defensive check to anything, Multiscale allows it to survive anything, and phaze with whirlwind.

This is precisely why I wanna bring it back to the tier, we're lacking a lot in defensive counterplay, too many offensive threats a good defensive is what it could be, I think people are overselling a CM set wayyyyy to much, it's too weak and while it has lot of coverage the things it invites are present in every decent made team in the tier and with the recovery nerf and hazards everywhere it needs to choose between boots to not eat rocks or recovery so it doesn't keep recovery every time.

I get what you're going for here, but honestly I have to agree with UnusualBoy that the bulk combined with utility is simply too much. If Lugia didn't have Multiscale I could potentially see it, but its defenses with multiscale + vast movepool are too bulky for the tier, it would be a GSC OU Celebi type of situation where it simply just wouldn't die + has the option to set up, phase, and do so much without feeling 4MSS.

Lugia is not like the other bulky mons, it can't spread stats anymore, it's recover got neutered,it doesn't even has tauntto stop calm mind wars, hazard stacking and becoming set up itself to other bulky mons, like let's say it got,I dunno the following set:

Lugia
252 HP 4Def 252 Spe
Multiscale
Tera: Fairy/Steel
Aeroblast/Ice Beam
Psychock/Psychic Noise
Calm Mind
Roost

It still getting dunked by Dark types, steel types,most specially defensive mons hell a 2+ psyshock can't OHKO pex of all things.
+2 252 SpA Lugia Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 228-270 (75 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[UnholyKidd]

I get what you're going for here, but honestly I have to agree with UnusualBoy that the bulk combined with utility is simply too much. If Lugia didn't have Multiscale I could potentially see it, but its defenses with multiscale + vast movepool are too bulky for the tier, it would be a GSC OU Celebi type of situation where it simply just wouldn't die + has the option to set up, phase, and do so much without feeling 4MSS.

It would have a LOT of bulk, yes. I feel like thatd be its biggest starting point. It would definitely be very dominant this generation, but i dont know how its presence would be bad for the metagame.

 

[RaikouLover]

Not really, Lugia can't get pass through any of the Unaware mons for start with and it has problems getting through some of the best defensive mons in the tier. What is gonna do to Ting-Lu? How is gonna get through Archaludon? How is it getting thorugh stall? Hell it's set up bait for some of the best mons in the tier like Volca, Ghambit, Dhengo, etc. It's not breaking anything with calm mind, Latias is a way scary bulk calm mind mon than Lugia.

God no. Lugia is broken as shit. The mon does not die. Imagine Cresselia with better all around stats, movepool, recovery, base 110 speed, and Multi-Scale.

So far, this meta is meh. Tera, Kingambit, and Gliscor are still stupid. All the new toys are cool though.

 

[Morkal]

Not really, Lugia can't get pass through any of the Unaware mons for start with and it has problems getting through some of the best defensive mons in the tier. What is gonna do to Ting-Lu? How is gonna get through Archaludon? How is it getting thorugh stall? Hell it's set up bait for some of the best mons in the tier like Volca, Ghambit, Dhengo, etc. It's not breaking anything with calm mind, Latias is a way scary bulk calm mind mon than Lugia.

It would have a LOT of bulk, yes. I feel like thatd be its biggest starting point. It would definitely be very dominant this generation, but i dont know how its presence would be bad for the metagame.

Lugia @ Leftovers
Ability: Multiscale
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Tera Blast
- Earth Power​

This one set alone would break a huge portion of the OU meta. Imagine being able to outspeed every bulky mon in the tier with essentially no speed investment, being able to boost, recover, etc all in a single team slot with STAB Tera Fairy to flip matchups on their head while breaking through entire offensive and defensive team cores thanks to stupendous coverage with Earth Power. This is just ONE thing Lugia can do, by the way, not even close to breaching the surface on its other options. The more I look, the more I'm pretty adamantly against a Lugia OU test.

Lugia
252 HP 4Def 252 Spe
Multiscale
Tera: Fairy/Steel
Aeroblast/Ice Beam
Psychock/Psychic Noise
Calm Mind
Roost

It still getting dunked by Dark types, steel types,most specially defensive mons hell a 2+ psyshock can't OHKO pex of all things.
+2 252 SpA Lugia Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 228-270 (75 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The problem is that Lugia can slot in any number of additional options to compensate for this (Lugia no longer gets Roost, btw). It can phase, run additional coverage, or even go in another direction and run a CURSE set utilizing its fantastic special bulk and shoring up its only slightly weaker physical bulk. Its movepool in combination with multiscale + its bulk makes its weak spots negligible in terms of OU's general power level. I truly feel Lugia is way too much for OU.

 

[Neosonic97]

Since the topic about unbanning Uber mons came up, I wanna make a nomination to drop the shittiest and mos pathetic Uber mon. No It's not Zama-C, Solagaleo, Reshiram or one of the UUbers, I'm talking real garbage, i'm talking about Lugia.

Lugia already been falling down a long time since I dunno.... Gen 6, but this gen I believe gave Lugia the final nail to it's coffin, it lost 3 moves it liked a lot: Toxic, Thunder Wave and Defog. Lugia is a passive piece of shit, it's main use was a glorified punchbang and maybe throw a Toxic or a ice beam in a unsuspecting Zyg100, now it lost one of the few moves who allowed it to breach it's passivity and not make it flat out lose to Pink Blobs, Unaware mons and in general bulky mons.

Now I know some may look at his stats and think I'm outta my mind, but no, Lugia has below average offensive stats, a bad defensive and offensive type and while it's abilities are very good for a bulky mon like it, it still can't put good pressure in it's opponents, it can't recover endlessly like before because the recovery nerf, 110 speed doesn't look impressive nowadays with all the fast mons in the tier, the horrible type offeset it's high defenses and make it rocks weak and propense to every kind of status and bait for some of the best mons in the tier like Hamurott, Gambit, Dhengo, Darkrai, Boulder, R.Bolt, Arch etc. While Lugia has two good set up moves in Calm Mind and Curse, it's so weak offensively it needs to Tera to not fold to those very dangerous threats and get some set up opportunitties, and why waste your Tera in a glorified punch bag then on one of the actual good mons.

"But if it's so bad, why do you wanna bring in here? The tier is too volatile right now, no need for another UUber." I wanna bring it here exactly because I think it will do some good for the tier. While I really believe it's garbage as both an offensive mon and mid as a defensive one I still think it could help in contain some dangerous threats, in a pinch it could be a good check for valiant, another decent phaser for the tier which in my opinion needs a lot with all the dangerous set-up sweepers like Moon, G.Fire, etc.

TL/DR: Lugia is not a UUber, more like a RUber, but, it might help our tier get some breating space of all the the offensive mons and it I don't believe it will become unhealthy between bad type, low power, loss of critical moves like T-Wave and Toxic and overall looking kinda Tera-reliant.

I think you're underestimating 's offensive profile here. Lugia's SpA is only 5 points lower than a Pokemon known to be able to run offense, that being Deoxys-Speed. Lugia is also rather fast, its bulk is OBSCENE.

And of course, one of the elephants in the room is Lugia's incredible STAB move that has never seen use before because it's always been such a passive 'mon in Ubers, Aeroblast:

0 SpA Lugia Aeroblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 326-386 (75.1 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even uninvested, Lugia threatens to rip Great Tusk to shreds with an Aeroblast to the face, while Great Tusk cannot do ANYTHING to Lugia, save for MAYBE a Knock Off to remove Lugia's HDB or Leftovers.

As for the individual threats that you say Lugia invites in, let's calc some of them against Lugia's best possible counterattack, shall we? Bare in mind, I'm using an uninvested, unboosted Lugia here:

Lugia Calcs

Hamurott
0 SpA Lugia Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 168-198 (52.3 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Ceaseless Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 84-100 (20.1 - 24%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

Kingambit

0 SpA Lugia Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 136-162 (39.8 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 94-112 (22.5 - 26.9%) -- 41.3% chance to 4HKO

Gholdengo

0 SpA Lugia Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 128-152 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 93-109 (22.3 - 26.2%) -- 9.1% chance to 4HKO

Darkrai (who's actually just mid in OU, mind you, not even one of the best)

0 SpA Lugia Aeroblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darkrai: 108-127 (38.4 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 93-109 (22.3 - 26.2%) -- 9.1% chance to 4HKO

Iron Boulder

0 SpA Lugia Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Iron Boulder: 136-162 (42.2 - 50.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Iron Boulder Mighty Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 88-105 (21.1 - 25.2%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO

Raging Bolt

252+ SpA Choice Specs Raging Bolt Discharge vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 153-181 (36.7 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Lugia Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Raging Bolt: 130-154 (33.2 - 39.3%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO

Archaludon

104+ SpA Archaludon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 65-77 (15.6 - 18.5%) -- possible 6HKO

0 SpA Lugia Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 112-134 (29.1 - 34.8%) -- 9.6% chance to 3HKO

And since you mentioned it, Ting-Lu

0 SpA Lugia Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 90-108 (17.5 - 21%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

(Standard Defensive Ting-Lu sets literally cannot do anything to Lugia except Ruination)

0 SpA Lugia Hydro Pump vs. 136 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 90-108 (18.5 - 22.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

120 Atk Ting-Lu Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 52-62 (12.5 - 14.9%) -- possible 7HKO

Bare in mind, all of these calcs are uninvested, unboosted Lugia. If Lugia boosts or invests into offense, it can potentially muscle past Ting-Lu and Raging Bolt, the two that actually consistently answer it.

With the exception of Raging Bolt and Ting-Lu, Lugia can slot in an attack (usually one of Hydro Pump or Earth Power) to beat all the threats you claim it invites in. And multiple of them, notably Archaludon and Gholdengo, actually need significant investment to outspeed Lugia. Remember, Lugia's not just insanely bulky, it's also fast. If anything, the only thing that would keep Lugia in the tier would be 4MSS, since it can't beat all of the aforementioned threats at the same time.

Bare in mind, anything that gets at least 3HKO'd is not a safe switch-in to Lugia, with the sole exception of Raging Bolt due to Thunderclap. This means that the only truly safe switch-ins to Lugia among your list would be Ting-Lu and Raging Bolt. And again, that's an uninvested, unboosted Lugia.

Lugia was only passive by Ubers standards. As the calcs show here, Lugia is quite adept offensively by OU standards.

If Deoxys-S, who is nowhere near as bulky and only has 5 more base in its offensive stats, can deal damage in this tier, so can Lugia.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

all right, i've tried to be gentle but come on, people. how are we immediately back on the "lmao let's unban box legendaries" discussion after the initial dlc honeymoon period. i'm going to come out and say it bluntly: these arguments are ridiculous. believing that box legendaries will fit well in ou because they lost a move or two or because they're outclassed in ubers is ridiculous. the fact that these statements are even controversial is ridiculous. you guys are gonna make someone from the council come out and say "nope, solgaleo and lugia are never getting unbanned and now all box legendaries besides zamazenta are blacklisted from discussion". is that what you want? because i'm pretty sure finch is typing up a tweet about it right now. just wait till january, go play them in uubers, and let's not derail this thread with theorymonning about why fucking reshiram or dialga-origin or arceus-bug would be ToTaLlY bAlAnCeD gUyS!!! before i have to break out solgaleo_at_computer.png

 

[Wolf-X]

This might've already been a discussed topic in this thread but I can't bothering looking through it all. Wanted to ask what everyone thinks about Booster Energy in this tier? Like it, don't like it, find it unhealthy, think it adds to the tier or think it should be tested etc.

I feel some booster energy mons like Roaring Moon might be broken. But the item is fine.

Unless we think some booster energy banned mons would not have been banned without booster energy. Then we can consider how the item impacts the game more.

 

[1234hjkl]

I think you're underestimating 's offensive profile here. Lugia's SpA is only 5 points lower than a Pokemon known to be able to run offense, that being Deoxys-Speed. Lugia is also rather fast, its bulk is OBSCENE.

And of course, one of the elephants in the room is Lugia's incredible STAB move that has never seen use before because it's always been such a passive 'mon in Ubers, Aeroblast:

0 SpA Lugia Aeroblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 326-386 (75.1 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even uninvested, Lugia threatens to rip Great Tusk to shreds with an Aeroblast to the face, while Great Tusk cannot do ANYTHING to Lugia, save for MAYBE a Knock Off to remove Lugia's HDB or Leftovers.

As for the individual threats that you say Lugia invites in, let's calc some of them against Lugia's best possible counterattack, shall we? Bare in mind, I'm using an uninvested, unboosted Lugia here:

Lugia Calcs

Hamurott
0 SpA Lugia Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 168-198 (52.3 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Ceaseless Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 84-100 (20.1 - 24%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

Kingambit

0 SpA Lugia Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 136-162 (39.8 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 94-112 (22.5 - 26.9%) -- 41.3% chance to 4HKO

Gholdengo

0 SpA Lugia Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 128-152 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 93-109 (22.3 - 26.2%) -- 9.1% chance to 4HKO

Darkrai (who's actually just mid in OU, mind you, not even one of the best)

0 SpA Lugia Aeroblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darkrai: 108-127 (38.4 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 93-109 (22.3 - 26.2%) -- 9.1% chance to 4HKO

Iron Boulder

0 SpA Lugia Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Iron Boulder: 136-162 (42.2 - 50.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Iron Boulder Mighty Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 88-105 (21.1 - 25.2%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO

Raging Bolt

252+ SpA Choice Specs Raging Bolt Discharge vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 153-181 (36.7 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Lugia Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Raging Bolt: 130-154 (33.2 - 39.3%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO

Archaludon

104+ SpA Archaludon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 65-77 (15.6 - 18.5%) -- possible 6HKO

0 SpA Lugia Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 112-134 (29.1 - 34.8%) -- 9.6% chance to 3HKO

And since you mentioned it, Ting-Lu

0 SpA Lugia Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 90-108 (17.5 - 21%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

(Standard Defensive Ting-Lu sets literally cannot do anything to Lugia except Ruination)

0 SpA Lugia Hydro Pump vs. 136 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 90-108 (18.5 - 22.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

120 Atk Ting-Lu Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 52-62 (12.5 - 14.9%) -- possible 7HKO

Bare in mind, all of these calcs are uninvested, unboosted Lugia. If Lugia boosts or invests into offense, it can potentially muscle past Ting-Lu and Raging Bolt, the two that actually consistently answer it.

With the exception of Raging Bolt and Ting-Lu, Lugia can slot in an attack (usually one of Hydro Pump or Earth Power) to beat all the threats you claim it invites in. And multiple of them, notably Archaludon and Gholdengo, actually need significant investment to outspeed Lugia. Remember, Lugia's not just insanely bulky, it's also fast. If anything, the only thing that would keep Lugia in the tier would be 4MSS, since it can't beat all of the aforementioned threats at the same time.

Lugia was only passive by Ubers standards.

If Deoxys-S, who is nowhere near as bulky and only has 5 more base in its offensive stats, can deal damage in this tier, so can Lugia.

Deoxys-S Has nasty plot, a massive Nuke of an attack and as you said outspeed the entire unboosted Meta, those are very different mons who work differently, it's like wanting to compare Urshifu and Buzzwole because they have almost the same attack.

Lugia @ Leftovers
Ability: Multiscale
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Tera Blast
- Earth Power​

This one set alone would break a huge portion of the OU meta. Imagine being able to outspeed every bulky mon in the tier with essentially no speed investment, being able to boost, recover, etc all in a single team slot with STAB Tera Fairy to flip matchups on their head while breaking through entire offensive and defensive team cores thanks to stupendous coverage with Earth Power. This is just ONE thing Lugia can do, by the way, not even close to breaching the surface on its other options. The more I look, the more I'm pretty adamantly against a Lugia OU test.

This set doesn't look that scary, in fact I say it's mediocre. You get phazed by Skarmory, Ting and Arch, Hamurott forces you to Tera or uses you as set-up, you lose the calm mind wars against a decent chuck like Reuniclus, Enamorous, Hatt, Suicune, Primarina, etc. Glowking can keep chucking SB till it poison it while not caring about those piss weak earth powers, you have no way to protect it from status so any WoW, Para or poison makes it have no ability and it's rock weak as well and being that in our hazard filled meta is not good, and let's not get started on the mons who eat for breakfast even after 1+plus like garga, ghambit, bulky dhengo, etc. In paper it looks scary but in pratice it's still too weak and that's my point, you would need the opponent to screw up for at least 2-3 turns by that point Lugia would be phazed, encored, it's hard stopped by unaware mons, and pokémons like Tera Cress/Latias eat it alive. I get it looks very scary on paper but so did Darkrai and Zama-C, and look were we are now. I not saying to drop it now, but consider it dropping in the future, it's really not that good of an offensive mon but it could work as a decent defensive mon and help the tier.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Deoxys-S Has nasty plot, a massive Nuke of an attack and as you said outspeed the entire unboosted Meta, those are very different mons who work differently, it's like wanting to compare Urshifu and Buzzwole because they have almost the same attack.



I admit in theory this set looks scary but in pratice it's still too weak and that's my point, you would need the opponent to screw up for at least 2-3 turns by that point Lugia would be phazed, encored, it's hard stopped by unaware mons, and pokémons like Tera Cress/Latias eat it alive. I get it looks very scary on paper but so did Darkrai and Zama-C, and look were we are now. I not saying to drop it, now but consider it dropping in the future, it's really not that good of an offensive mon but it could work as a decent defensive mon and help the tier.

 

[Wolf-X]

About the Lugia discussion... While I see where you are coming I think its just too fat for OU, it certainly could be managed but not sure if it would be healthy.
Unaware mons and toxic seems the best way to kill it.

Its offensive power heavily relies on CM, but its bulk is just crazy. I doubt it would be a healthy presence, but who knows, im all for testing stuff, even if I dont think it would stay.

 

[Neosonic97]

Deoxys-S Has nasty plot, a massive Nuke of an attack and as you said outspeed the entire unboosted Meta, those are very different mons who work differently, it's like wanting to compare Urshifu and Buzzwole because they have almost the same attack.

Except Lugia can afford to be slower to setup than Deo-S, since it still outspeeds a significant portion of the metagame, and its bulk makes it practically invincible.

And even unboosted it can threaten several significant threats in OU. Again, Great Tusk loses about 80% to an uninvested Aeroblast (and Flying is just a really, REALLY good STAB-type in general).

> it's hard stopped by unaware mons

That set, maybe, but only Skeledirge actually does consistently well against Lugia (Not counting Clef who always runs Magic Guard anyway). Clodsire and Dondozo can be threatened by Psyshock/Thunderbolt respectively (And Dondozo dares not to Tera Grass against Lugia, lest it risk being utterly obliterated by Aeroblast).

And even Dirge can be threatened if Lugia decides to Terastalize to power up its Hydro Pump.

So in short: No, Lugia will not be balanced in OU.

 

[Zetalz]

ome on, people. how are we immediately back on the "lmao let's unban box legendaries" discussion after the initial dlc honeymoon period.

The long and short answer is that people stopped using this thread and it's prior iterations as a place solely to discuss OU happenings, turning it into something more akin to a discord channel where at any moment one (1) guy can derail any given conversation by off-handedly mentioning something. When you combine that with the fact that the most frequent posters in this thread are the same 2-3 dozen-ish people it creates these cyclical discussion points that keep coming up over and over, made worse when there's nothing of major public interest happening in the tier to direct discussion (a survey, suspect/qb, council posts etc, etc.)

Also like a discord channel, people like to just post for postings sake as well during these boredom periods, when they really should learn to stfu friday if they don't have anything relevant to add or bring up. People should come to this thread to see what people are cooking in OU, not to engage in the 18 billionth discussion about non-OU shit people are entertaining this afternoon.

 

[Morkal]

The long and short answer is that people stopped using this thread and it's prior iterations as a place solely to discuss OU happenings, turning it into something more akin to a discord channel where at any moment one (1) guy can derail any given conversation by off-handedly mentioning something. When you combine that with the fact that the most frequent posters in this thread are the same 2-3 dozen-ish people it creates these cyclical discussion points that keep coming up over and over, made worse when there's nothing of major public interest happening in the tier to direct discussion (a survey, suspect/qb, council posts etc, etc.)

Also like a discord channel, people like to just post for postings sake as well during these boredom periods, when they really should learn to stfu friday if they don't have anything relevant to add or bring up. People should come to this thread to see what people are cooking in OU, not to engage in the 18 billionth discussion about non-OU shit people are entertaining this afternoon.

To shift the discussion over, I'd like to propose three questions to everyone here -

1. How are you all feeling about in the meta right now?

2. What is your favorite team style in this meta that isn't hyper-offense?

3. What are your favorite physical and special attackers in OU right now?

 

[1234hjkl]

Except Lugia can afford to be slower to setup than Deo-S, since it still outspeeds a significant portion of the metagame, and its bulk makes it practically invincible.

And even unboosted it can threaten several significant threats in OU. Again, Great Tusk loses about 80% to an uninvested Aeroblast (and Flying is just a really, REALLY good STAB-type in general).

> it's hard stopped by unaware mons

That set, maybe, but only Skeledirge actually does consistently well against Lugia (Not counting Clef who always runs Magic Guard anyway). Clodsire and Dondozo can be threatened by Psyshock/Thunderbolt respectively (And Dondozo dares not to Tera Grass against Lugia, lest it risk being utterly obliterated by Aeroblast).

And even Dirge can be threatened if Lugia decides to Terastalize to power up its Hydro Pump.

So in short: No, Lugia will not be balanced in OU.

Do you understand what you're stating by saying it's unbosted STAB super-effective hits still can't guarantee an OHKO on Tusk with it's shit Sp.Def? Here's Neutral unboosted Dragapult with stab.
0 SpA Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 232-274 (62.5 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also Tera wars are not a good argument because EVERY POKEMON CAN TERA, Tera Fairy Dirge one it's most common sets doesn't care about it and Tera Pump ain't strong enough to guarante the 2HKO if it teras which it's just heal it back at. Donzo don'za (kek) give a damn to its pathetic coverage, Clefairy can knock it's item, Para it and keep chucking MB or whatever it wants
0 SpA Tera Water Lugia Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 136-162 (26.9 - 32.1%) -- 46.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tera Water Lugia Thunder vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 204-242 (40.4 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Wow a 3KO with a ThunderMiss on the physical set.

Hell even Clod can neuter Lugia by using Toxic on it and recover it later because even with stab psychic/Psyshock it still can den't it hard enough.
0 SpA Tera Water Lugia Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 236-278 (50.9 - 60%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.

To shift the discussion over, I'd like to propose three questions to everyone here -

1. How are you all feeling about in the meta right now?

2. What is your favorite team style in this meta that isn't hyper-offense?

3. What are your favorite physical and special attackers in OU right now?

Anyway, Pult is fine, got a bajillion sets but neither gives an edge over the other, it's a Top mon but not broken.
Balance
Special are Velocicune and Gardebot. Physical are Terabot and Grass-DK.

 

[Welcome to mars]

I am downright devasted tonight, for the true reason why pokemon will never spread its wings and remain in its praise fueled cocoon, never thinking of anything remotely innovative, has been forcefully revealed to me in the midst of my slumber and thus this game of agents and fat blobs has doomed from the start

because the living time paradox “iron hands”, cannot learn upper hand despite its father being used to demonstrate the move, we could have gotten the ultimate counter to smogons terastal kingambit and VGCs fake out spam

we must unban lugia for this, let the biggest bird slingshot its way through teams in both doubles and singles, for pokemon must know true pain, for latias must stop trying to be terapagos

maybe then, justice will be served

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Except Lugia can afford to be slower to setup than Deo-S, since it still outspeeds a significant portion of the metagame, and its bulk makes it practically invincible.

And even unboosted it can threaten several significant threats in OU. Again, Great Tusk loses about 80% to an uninvested Aeroblast (and Flying is just a really, REALLY good STAB-type in general).

> it's hard stopped by unaware mons

That set, maybe, but only Skeledirge actually does consistently well against Lugia (Not counting Clef who always runs Magic Guard anyway). Clodsire and Dondozo can be threatened by Psyshock/Thunderbolt respectively (And Dondozo dares not to Tera Grass against Lugia, lest it risk being utterly obliterated by Aeroblast).

And even Dirge can be threatened if Lugia decides to Terastalize to power up its Hydro Pump.

So in short: No, Lugia will not be balanced in OU.

Plus I mean, testing Lugia in a tera meta in general is a mistake, considering how held back it is by its typing. However, I don't even think multiscale is what would break it. It would probably be pressure if anything because with bulk like that why wouldn't you try to PP stall?

Also counterpoint, Ting Lu and Gambit don't fear really anything coming from Lugia, plus we have a decent amount of mons over 110 speed with taunt. Point being, even if it did end up being broken, I doubt it would be as broken as people think it would be. I mean for God's sake we had Terapagos, an Uber damn near on par with Eternatus down here that was far better at everything Lugia tries to do. It can't be worse than that. I say if tera gets banned we should maybe give Lugia a shot even if its ends up being too much. Lugia is fat as fuck but Deo-S is way better offensively, and Lugia really hates being knocked or taunted, and trick really annoys it in practice. Also stealth rocks aren't a good thing for it either and pretty much force it into boots. I think there is a genuine reason for dropping it since it theoretically could be balanced in a non-tera meta even if we would all hate it, even if it ends up being busted as we have things that can really annoy it and could potentially beat it consistently even if they can't okho it outright.

But I don't think now is the time for testing Lugia honestly, that should wait until after the upcoming tera suspect and the likely Roaring Moon quickban.

 

[1234hjkl]

because the living time paradox “iron hands”, cannot learn upper hand despite its father being used to demonstrate the move, we could have gotten the ultimate counter to smogons terastal kingambit and VGCs fake out spam

But that's a good thing, if it became too powerful in VGC, GF truly would pull a Boom on it and nerf it to the Netherlands, watch out Mane, next gen's will be Mismagius great comeback.

 

[Morkal]

I am downright devasted tonight, for the true reason why pokemon will never spread its wings and remain in its praise fueled cocoon, never thinking of anything remotely innovative, has been forcefully revealed to me and thus this game has doomed from the start

because iron hands, cannot learn upper hand despite its father being used to demonstrate the move, we could have gotten the ultimate counter to smogons terastal kingambit and VGCs fake out spam

IMO Upper Hand is still too situational of a move even if Iron Hands gets access to it; you're essentially banking on an opponent utilizing priority to make it work which is bad for two reasons (including against Kingambit).

• Unless you're up against 5 allies fallen Supreme Overlord Kingambit, it's not gonna stay in on Iron Hands - and other priority moves are not gonna be used against Iron Hands to begin with (such as Thunderclap Raging Bolt). In VGC it could give some potential use to Hariyama, but I've tried OU Hariyama and Upper Hand is just not a good move in a singles meta game based on my limited testing with it.
• Extremely exploitable opportunities are given to Pokemon like Tera Fairy Kingambit to set up via Swords Dance or use a non-priority attack because Iron Hands's base 50 speed isn't exactly anything to write home about.

Anyway, Pult is fine, got a bajillion sets but neither gives an edge over the other, it's a Top mon but not broken.
Balance
Special are Velocicune and Gardebot. Physical are Terabot and Grass-DK.

Personally, I don't think Pult is a top mon, but I can understand why it is considered such. As alkazoth and some others pointed out to me, that speed with the ability to chunk things is really useful utility but I feel that its power on special sets is starting to fall behind (almost requiring Choice Specs) and physical sets are becoming more exploitable.