Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[pika pal]

I think the Blaziken example really illustrates that criticisms saying that the council's approach to banning is predicated on a slippery slope fallacy are unfounded, because people have illustrated that they will actively ask for said slippery slope to be put into effect. There's no fallacy if we've seen the beginnings of the slippery slope being formed with our own eyes. Opening the floodgates to endless debates of "Well why can't we just nerf XYZmon to allow them into OU/UU/whateverU" is just inviting endless headaches and forum wars. And, as said before, the tiering system becomes meaningless if we allow that precedent to establish itself outside of extreme examples.

The Blaze Blaziken argument is a misinformed comparison to be making. Most people arguing for a Dire Claw ban vs a Sneasler ban do not want the move removed from Sneasler, they would want the move gone all together. The Blaze Blaziken comparison is a bad ask because you would at that point be arguing that Speed Boost is uncompetitive or specifically asking for an exception on this one Pokemon, whereas most DC arguments are saying "this move is not conducive to a competitive environment on any user, whether we have 1, 2, or 200". Even in the case of Sneasler being on the radar as a whole, I see very few advocates of "Sneasler is overwhelming to standard play" so much as "Sneasler with Dire Claw can hax into match-up wins it should not have against optimal play". I don't think there's anything extreme or insane in concept about arguing the position of "I think this move inherently takes skill away from the equation" as a reason to put Dire Claw on a banlist alongside non-mon elements like Double Team, King's Rock, or Swagger, whether or not you think the move in magnitude reaches those levels.

I am going to re-emphasize again: Whether or not the ban is the move or the mon, the Dire Claw debate is based around the move being uncompetitive, not making Sneasler "less good" to keep it OU fair. This does not fall into the same category of argumentation as "complex ban aspects to bring Ubers down", as Dire Claw does not make beating Sneasler more "difficult" so much as it makes it less reliable, so refuting the Dire Claw ban-advocate mindset is likely to turn them away from entertaining the discussion if it's brought up because that probably isn't where that position is arguing from to begin with.

 

[Mojo-Robo]

snip

Moves like Last Respects and Rage Fist are comparatively even more uncompetitive than Dire Claw on the grounds of invalidating skill, considering their reliability. IMO they're far more egregious than Dire Claw, and we banned the only mons who had them. What is the meaningful difference between Sneasler haxing to win against its hard counters and Houndstone outspeeding and OHKOing everything after even just a few dropped mons on its team.

Annihilape might even be a more apt comparison despite RF being comparatively less fucked up than LR, because Annihilape is very much perfectly poised to abuse the absolute shit out of RF. Sneasler is also quite perfectly poised to capitalize on the fucked up shit it can pull with DC.

Nobody contested Houndstone being banned when it was the only mon with LR, few people contested Annihilape being banned and it being rebanned for HOME was celebrated in the last thread. Why is banning Sneasler suddenly such a problem?

 

[pika pal]

Moves like Last Respects and Rage Fist are comparatively even more uncompetitive than Dire Claw on the grounds of invalidating skill, considering their reliability. IMO they're far more egregious than Dire Claw, and we banned the only mons who had them. What is the meaningful difference between Sneasler haxing to win against its hard counters and Houndstone outspeeding and OHKOing everything after even just a few dropped mons on its team.

Annihilape might even be a more apt comparison despite RF being comparatively less fucked up than LR, because Annihilape is very much perfectly poised to abuse the absolute shit out of RF. Sneasler is also quite perfectly poised to capitalize on the fucked up shit it can pull with DC.

Nobody contested Houndstone being banned when it was the only mon with LR, few people contested Annihilape being banned and it being rebanned for HOME was celebrated in the last thread. Why is banning Sneasler suddenly such a problem?

First I would note that Houndstone being banned was questioned, even if not so vehemently as to want it overturned (by forum goers), and was partly informed by the transparency that it was mostly a measure until Basculegion came out (whereas Sneasler getting banned solely because of Dire Claw would probably be indefinite until a second user exists). It was not an unquestioned tiering decision by any means, but the explanation was accepted when given.

With that said, the difference for me between Sneasler hax and LR Houndstone Sweeping is that Houndstone was consistent in how it worked to invalidate theoretical counter play: If you could be hit by Last Respects, you were beaten, binary and straight up. Houndstone had counterplay that would work basically every time, it's just that running that counterplay was incredibly specific and stifling to build with.

Sneasler hax meanwhile isn't consistent or optimal play, necessarily, it's simply Sneasler spinning a Roulette Wheel for whether it loses to what its set of traits say it is supposed to lose to. Great Tusk beats Sneasler... unless Dire Claw procs sleep 16% of the time specifically.

Traditional and accessible counterplay to Sneasler exists, even to Sneasler with Dire Claw, but the issue is that it completely removes consistency while being on a disproportionately small risk to the reward (Dire Claw is half the chance of Focus Blast or Hurricane missing, but people do not consider missing those moves to be reliable odds to act on despite having the potential to decide games).

 

[ant4456]

The Blaze Blaziken argument is a misinformed comparison to be making. Most people arguing for a Dire Claw ban vs a Sneasler ban do not want the move removed from Sneasler, they would want the move gone all together. The Blaze Blaziken comparison is a bad ask because you would at that point be arguing that Speed Boost is uncompetitive or specifically asking for an exception on this one Pokemon, whereas most DC arguments are saying "this move is not conducive to a competitive environment on any user, whether we have 1, 2, or 200". Even in the case of Sneasler being on the radar as a whole, I see very few advocates of "Sneasler is overwhelming to standard play" so much as "Sneasler with Dire Claw can hax into match-up wins it should not have against optimal play". I don't think there's anything extreme or insane in concept about arguing the position of "I think this move inherently takes skill away from the equation" as a reason to put Dire Claw on a banlist alongside non-mon elements like Double Team, King's Rock, or Swagger, whether or not you think the move in magnitude reaches those levels.

I am going to re-emphasize again: Whether or not the ban is the move or the mon, the Dire Claw debate is based around the move being uncompetitive, not making Sneasler "less good" to keep it OU fair. This does not fall into the same category of argumentation as "complex ban aspects to bring Ubers down", as Dire Claw does not make beating Sneasler more "difficult" so much as it makes it less reliable, so refuting the Dire Claw ban-advocate mindset is likely to turn them away from entertaining the discussion if it's brought up because that probably isn't where that position is arguing from to begin with.

idk about others but I would unironically advocate for a Dire Claw ban in Ubers if that was possible

because I see absolutely, literally nothing it does for the game but make it less competitive.

 

[MattC (Banned)]

Gamefreak over the last few generations have changed the view on signature moves: instead of legendaries having these, newer pokemon also carry them as a way to make them stand out more. Sure, these two pokemon can use poison jab, but only this one can use dire claw. I think the old rule is starting to stand out more because of this design change by the developers. Because an entire new pokemon can be invalid due to the developers not thinking about balance for a new move. Currently tera is getting special treatment because "oh its a new mechanic and we don't want to repeat gen 8" but using this same mindset what if the new dlc or gen comes out and almost all the new toys have broken or uncompetitive signature moves, well too bad every new toy is in ubers and ou suffers.

Moves like Last Respects and Rage Fist are comparatively even more uncompetitive than Dire Claw on the grounds of invalidating skill, considering their reliability. IMO they're far more egregious than Dire Claw, and we banned the only mons who had them. What is the meaningful difference between Sneasler haxing to win against its hard counters and Houndstone outspeeding and OHKOing everything after even just a few dropped mons on its team.

Annihilape might even be a more apt comparison despite RF being comparatively less fucked up than LR, because Annihilape is very much perfectly poised to abuse the absolute shit out of RF. Sneasler is also quite perfectly poised to capitalize on the fucked up shit it can pull with DC.

Nobody contested Houndstone being banned when it was the only mon with LR, few people contested Annihilape being banned and it being rebanned for HOME was celebrated in the last thread. Why is banning Sneasler suddenly such a problem?

idk about others but I would unironically advocate for a Dire Claw ban in Ubers if that was possible

because I see absolutely, literally nothing it does for the game but make it less competitive.

You guys are basically saying the same thing: ban dumb "uncompetitive" move
In all fairness, Game Freak focuses more on the VGC side of things and keeps it kinda hidden within the casual player base and [to an extent] singles with every new generation. Like the numerous changes in gen 5 ->6 with burn, paralysis, confusion, Sucker Punch and Prankster getting the status we know today. Yes they've affected singles, but who really noticed that until they went into the teambuilder and seen it for themselves?

The point I'm trying to make here is that moves are apart of a pokemon's design. Like Meteor Assault Sirfetch'd, or a Hydro Steam from Walking Wake. Sometimes, the move is so obscure and bad it doesn't exist competitively (like Exeggutor using Egg Bomb), but often times it kinda makes or breaks a pokemon. Like Walking Wake without Hydro Steam is a very much so risky pick on sun. Yes it gains a Proto boost, but it can't effectively use one of its STAB's in its primary weather - which severely hinders its usefulness.

Moving back to the point of a new generation, Game Freak isn't concerned about competitive viability. Like Regigigas would've been an absolute wrecking ball of a mon without Slow Start, and Palafin wouldn't have been obsurd as it is with Zero to Hero and its "bad downside" if they genuinely cared about competitive pokemon. Unless the mon is made that way (often times this is the case. Just look at Regieleki with its non existent coverage vs Ground types) it won't be taken into account except for design and some lore or whatever. Smogon isn't even apart of Play! Pokemon or anything related to it. It's its own community that makes use of what it has, and gets rid of, adapts to and balances pokemon with their respective power level. Its why we have tiers for pokemon. It's why we have bans It's why we have tier drops and rises. It's so the game isn't a generic box legendary spam fest of blandness. Smogon has been around for quite some time now - all the way back in gen 5. Maybe even earlier. Every new generation brings with it new pokemon, tools and mechanics, and with it comes some pretty powerful stuff, as well as moves seen as uncompetitive to the player base. This isn;t without saying Dire Claw isn't uncompetitive - after all, it IS called Dire Claw. But we as a community will adapt to it. We will have bans for the powerhouses. And we will find a balanced, healthy metagame for every single existing tier.

TLDR: New gen, new mechanics and moves with quirky effects. We just deal with it - and worst comes to worst, it's not banned and we adapt to it. If it doesn't work, it will get banned

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I think suspecting every thing else that isn't mag or chien pao after suspecting tera again is probably the move, as magearna and chien pao are stupid and pretty much everyone wants them gone, and once they go a tera suspect, then a suspect on some of the others could go underway

 

[Just_Aaron]

Me trying to find a post that isn't about banning Dire Claw (it ain't gonna happen)

 

[Ctann]

This dire claw argument has now become stupid.

Every single time the counter argument brings up “but why not ban gorilla tactics, last respects, salt cure, etc”.

it’s been said before many times, it’s the RNG element, so the precedent is moody, sand veil, kings rock, serene grace etc. it’s not last respects, salt cure or gorilla tactics.

the thought experiment is basically, if you will set a new precedent that if something is inherently uncompetitive due to RNG, can you ban that element rather than a whole Pokémon. But the slippery slope isn’t with last respects, it’s with iron head, icicle crash, triple arrows, etc.

anyway, it’s likely this arguing is all just mental gymnastics, as sneaker may or may not be broken with or without dire claw. I can tell you it’s barely impacted games I’ve played in OU. It’s literally impacted games less than a 30% iron head flinch.

 

[Pabloaram]

The funny thing about OU rn is that Powercreep is so stupid and high as gen V was (maybe more)..
Rn Home Toys are being suspect tested like , , and but in the back still is , , and chilling in the back.
Also this gen speedcreep is crazy with 138 ZamaH, 135 ChienPao, 128 ZamaC.

 

[Guyoftheego]

Has anyone else been having success with Thundurus-T? I've been using a specs set on rain and it can absolutely smash through teams.

Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Volt Absorb
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunder
- U-turn
- Grass Knot
- Thunderbolt

Thunder and Thunderbolt smash through non-resists like no tomorrow, and Grass Knot has been super useful for catching common incoming grounds like Great Tusk and Ursaluna, while U-Turn is always useful for pivoting out.

 

[RaikouLover]

Has anyone else been having success with Thundurus-T? I've been using a specs set on rain and it can absolutely smash through teams.

Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Volt Absorb
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunder
- U-turn
- Grass Knot
- Thunderbolt

Thunder and Thunderbolt smash through non-resists like no tomorrow, and Grass Knot has been super useful for catching common incoming grounds like Great Tusk and Ursaluna, while U-Turn is always useful for pivoting out.

T-T is always decent on rain. IMO Nasty Plot is still the way to go. Choice electric isn’t the best. Thundy seems like it would be a little worse this Gen, due to losing weather ball. Also, it’s speed tier looks worse with each passing Gen..

On another note, Tera is driving me insane. Its so difficult to check things

 

[June Heat]

Has anyone tried Rest Zama-C on a stall core? With Heal Bell back on Blissy we have a way of mitigating Rest’s big drawback. Idk, seems like it could be interesting.

 

[SnackWasTaken]

I love how just one week ago big council members like Finch were telling me how wrong I was about Chien Pao being banned in OU. Now look who’s the very clevery guy

 

[SnackWasTaken]

I love how just one week ago big council members like Finch were telling me how wrong I was about Chien Pao being banned in OU. Now look who’s the very clevery guyView attachment 522267

(Shoutout to anyone who gets this)

 

[June Heat]

I love how just one week ago big council members like Finch were telling me how wrong I was about Chien Pao being banned in OU. Now look who’s the very clevery guyView attachment 522267

I honestly think through their internal play testing they assumed with Mag, Urshifu-RS, and the Zama’s coming back that there would be plenty of counter play to it. Though in practice with a larger sample size of players turns out that yeah these busted moms are broken, and broke shouldn’t check broke. I don’t wanna shit on the council though they’re just human. Plus it has been fun using broken mons to an extent.

 

[Lobby Eeveee]

Has anyone tried Rest Zama-C on a stall core? With Heal Bell back on Blissy we have a way of mitigating Rest’s big drawback. Idk, seems like it could be interesting.

Yea but stall needs:
-Tera ghost cresselia or you lose to luna
-Tauros Aqua forme to beat heatran and pao
-Clodsire and Blissey for walling
-x2 regenerator Pokémon to extend longevity, one of which must be alomomola.

 

[Cuddly]

I love how just one week ago big council members like Finch were telling me how wrong I was about Chien Pao being banned in OU. Now look who’s the very clevery guyView attachment 522267

Honestly I have no clue why it dropped to OU at all. Never mind the fact that its Atk is effectively higher than Hoopa-Unbound’s SpA on a Pokemon with 135 Spe and also priority. The only things that Home brought that check it are Zama, Mag, and Urshifu-R with new Sword Dance.

 

[awyp]

Both Zamazentas continue being totally fine.

Sneasler is still rare and fine.

People preparing for Sneasler with Covert Cloak also cover Garganacl at the same time, making it worse than it could have been.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Has anyone else been having success with Thundurus-T? I've been using a specs set on rain and it can absolutely smash through teams.

Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Volt Absorb
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunder
- U-turn
- Grass Knot
- Thunderbolt

Thunder and Thunderbolt smash through non-resists like no tomorrow, and Grass Knot has been super useful for catching common incoming grounds like Great Tusk and Ursaluna, while U-Turn is always useful for pivoting out.

i tried it rainless as an eleki replacement on a screens HO team and didn't have much luck, Grass Knot is really nice but 4mss has been a struggle

Some of y'all need to stop justifying Magearna in this tier. Yes the SP set is broken, even seen the SP Iron Defense set 1v1 Zamazenta-C, like huh? Magearna has a plethora of sets that can bypass it's C&C. In conclusion, Magearna is busted on it's own and has no reason to be in this tier.

I mean 1v1ing a Pokémon that normally checks it with a ton of boosts up isn't really that notable. That stored power set has like 10x the checks Espathra had since Espathra didn't need to run double dance and could run things like substitute or a 3rd coverage move instead. Hell, if we're banning Pokémon for having many radically different potent sets then I guess we can add Iron Valiant to the radar. If we're banning Pokémon for being versatile and performing a variety of roles very well and being on almost every team for that reason, hell, ban Tusk. I'm really starting to come around to a position of "Magearna is one of the best Pokémon in the tier and should be considered on any serious team" but there's so much that can check it between Heatran, Goodra-H, Skeledirge, Clodsire, Zam-C, Ursaluna... I think we're getting closer to a Walking awake situation here, where something looks crazy initially but it turns out there are actually several ways around it. I'd even argue pre-Home Kingambit took less effort, less effort, and less turns to setup a game-ending sweep.

and for what it's worth with no Light Clay the set is a complete non-issue

 

[serperiorr]

T-T is always decent on rain. IMO Nasty Plot is still the way to go. Choice electric isn’t the best. Thundy seems like it would be a little worse this Gen, due to losing weather ball. Also, it’s speed tier looks worse with each passing Gen..

On another note, Tera is driving me insane. Its so difficult to check things

Has anyone else been having success with Thundurus-T? I've been using a specs set on rain and it can absolutely smash through teams.

Thundy t is better than lastgen since there are less spdef grounds, spdef lando isnt really a thing since koko doesnt exist, hippo is bad, gastro isnt used, tinglu loses to it, and of course tusk cant really take special hits. Clod is annoying tho

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Dire claw is the primary contributor to why this mon is broken, but its understandable that sneasler needs to go because of it (unless smeargle down the road counts as another mon to ban the move?). Its way too cheese and RNG focused.. 50% chance is already coinflip as is to cripple something, but 2/3 of the random status pool basically turbo fucks you over and there's nothing you can really use to absorb that reliably unless you switch in a steel.. into a fighting type. Its too bullshit. Dire claw is just the 'fuck me gently' version of ohko moves, when it lands a sleep your pokemon is basically decapitated and is completely out of you or even the opponent's control when it happens.

I'm putting these two together cause they both have the same primary issue... they're too fucking overtuned. Item or itemless, their stat spread is incredibly difficult to stat check, counter, stall, or revenge kill, juggernaut is the right term for them and I think OU needs a lot more power creep to let them in the tier for them to be killable. It'd be way different if they weren't so fucking fast, or if they weren't so bulky, but the whole package is way too good. Their only stats below 100 are HP (barely) and special attack (they're physical so w/e), way too good.

There's only one good counter for them in the tier (dondozo) and I'm sure blissey would've dealt with regieleki too but its not realistic.

Pretty much the same as above, just overtuned but at least urshifu can be revenge killed by faster mons, 100/100/60 bulk is still really good so revenge killing is tough, but 97 speed makes it more managable than the above... and I don't find urshi manageable enough either. It hits like a truck and I believe once other stuff leaves it'll either be the followup chien-pao or be more limited. I think it should wait a bit longer rather than the first ban wave.

It hits like an absolute truck, but I don't think its that problematic yet. Primarily its speed tier holds it back from being anything more than a sponge and nuke, way more manageable and I think its cool I see trick room on the ladder more for it. Hold off IMO.

As much as I like it, I think it's still too much for the tier. Before I believed it was just there as a hard hitting fast threat, but rn its deleting everything now that dark tera is more spammable instead of having to run tera fighting. Hazard chip is better, screens are better, its benefitting a lot and is too much atm. I would be ok with it skipping the first wave solely off copium it could be fine if everything else wasn't brainlessly costing all your resources to deal with (dogs, dire claw), but I can see it being broken regardless.

Idk why it isn't banned already lol, regi went this is easily the 2nd in line most broken bullshit in the tier rn.

and unlike above idk why this one is even here. You don't have to go out of your way to comp volc answers, you really don't.. there's so many of them and especially RN its set versatility took a back seat cause its a 'check' to the dogs with bulkarona. It highly benefits from screens sure, and it has a lot of sets but its not so much sets it runs to cheese everything, its sets to not auto lose to them. Volc lacks perfect coverage and suffers from 4mss, it can't run coverage for every different mon in the tier at once, and must pick 1 to try and break it. This is where the frustration comes in because no one knows which tera volc is and what its trying to not get stone walled by, it's not a mon you can slap on a team with any build and expect to not be total dead weight, you have to consider what your team can handle and what the volc needs to deal with itself otherwise it struggles. Evident that volc isn't even a top 10 usage mon despite it probably being at peak right before the home update, as using it on a team is a full commitment to try and make it the MVP.

Light Clay, worth suspecting and tier would be better without it. It enables too much in a power crept gen.

 

[Magcargo]

Thundy t is better than lastgen since there are less spdef grounds, spdef lando isnt really a thing since koko doesnt exist, hippo is bad, gastro isnt used, tinglu loses to it, and of course tusk cant really take special hits. Clod is annoying tho

It helps that its Tusk MU is much better than the one vs Lando / Chomp last gen. Grass Knot is OHKOing standard defensive Tusk set & Tusk's Knock Off is hurting less than Lando's from last gen. 101 Speed tier is pretty great too, outspeeds big threats like Urshifu.

Main issue is still is bulk, at most its taking one hit before dying. Always feels like a waste to burn a Tera on it vs other stuff like Magearna since its so fragile lol.

 

[RKOtaku]

Quick thoughts on Dire Claw :
I don't think a discussion about banning the move is reasonable. The move stands out because of its outrageous haxx chance but to me it is not really different from Scald, Discharge, Lava Plume, Flinch moves, Serene Grace etc... Losing to haxx really sucks but it's something that the community has accepted every gen because at the end of the day it's a part of Pokemon.
The move is also made useless by Steel types so there is a direct drawback to the move. What makes this move seem broken in my opinion is that it is on a good Fighting type which makes it really awkward for Steel types to switch into Sneasler.

This gen also introduced Covert Cloak and since a lot of people think that Salt Cure is fine because of this item (I don't) I don't see how it is different for Dire Claw.

I'm usually on the camp that we should ban really problematic moves or abilities instead of Pokemon to have a pool of Pokemon as large as possible to play with. I just don't see Dire Claw being as broken and uncompetitive as something like Last Respect, Arena Trap etc...

Also when I use it I never get a status on my opponent just like I never get a boost from Fiery Dance but when my opponent uses it is a 100% sleep chance for 3 turns lol

 

[Ctann]

I have no idea what I’m doing,

made a bit of a meme set trailblaze bulk up decidueye.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1876836706

Only won because of a free turn on Heatran, but this is inspiring me to find a set for it.

anybody figured out how to use decidueye yet?

 

[Moyashi]

I'm really starting to come around to a position of "Magearna is one of the best Pokémon in the tier and should be considered on any serious team" but there's so much that can check it between Heatran, Goodra-H, Skeledirge, Clodsire, Zam-C, Ursaluna... I think we're getting closer to a Walking awake situation here, where something looks crazy initially but it turns out there are actually several ways around it. I'd even argue pre-Home Kingambit took less effort, less effort, and less turns to setup a game-ending sweep.

Leaving aside that Mag isn't just controversial because it has "many radically different potent sets", its the fact that those dangerous sets lack significant overlapping counterplay which makes it very difficult to account for in battle. It's also not on the radar for fulfilling many roles so...

Back to the point: stored power magearna more or less clowns all the stuff you listed. The screens teams it features on basically just causes SE hits to feed it more power through its weakness policy. Heatran, Skeledirge, Clodsire... You won't be able to damage it fast enough in many cases. The unaware mons don't even blank stored power bp boosts. GoodraH and ZamC are not good checks either? Like what is GoodraH doing to it? Specs fleur cannon is way too much for the snail, while stored power sets just set up on it. Stored Power Mag is extremely overpowered and not terribly hard to pilot. There's a reason it's been all over ladder since HOME dropped. And why people want it gone.