No, because if we ban Dire Claw, then we can ban all sorts of one-off moves instead of Pokemon and at what point would it stop? Would we just begin balancing a bunch of Ubers and repurposing bans? We wouldn’t be able to budge there.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
- Thread starter TPP
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I think the point being made is that Sneasler is healthy for the meta without dire claw. Physical Poison sweepers are currently very uncommon at the time, and would provide another check to mons such as enamorus and the previous Iron valiant.
Potentially. I mean potentially.
Sneasler is a fragment of a Pokemon without Dire Claw, and we do not tier fragments. Dire Claw itself clearly does not hit the threshold for being banned as nothing else learns if, leading us to return to the point about it being inconsistent and setting bad precedent to ban one-off moves.
This isn’t some grand equation about minimizing collateral or preserving parts of Pokemon — that’s a common misconception and not part of how tiering works at all.
I don’t disagree with you. I’m just showing some reasoning behind why people are thinking of this.
Also, today is my last day of school, so I’ll have the summer to be way more active in the discussion. Excited to talk with you all!
It’s a move that may put the opponent TO SLEEP. Also, 80 base power is not too shabby.
Probably hero to be honest, at least with that one it can at least be scared out with future sight and its sub sets can get really messed up by poison since its healing is nonexistent when poisoned which puts its infamous sub set on a clock, and overall has way more answers than hero.
Crowned is way too fat for this tier though, with way too much attack and bulk for a wall, with way too good of a typing to boot, as its less susceptible to hazard chip and can't be toxic spiked.
Because sleep is a broken status
Serious question for you finch: why can’t this move fall under rng/uncompetitive reasoning for getting the boot? An attacking move that inflicts sleep is unprecedented in competitive Pokémon, which is why I think Dire claw has been particularly contentious among the community.
Overall I’ve been pretty satisfied with how the home drop has been handled, keep up the good work!
who cares? Garganacal can be healthy in UU without salt cure. Why not nerf Magearna by taking away Fleur Cannon? Lilligant in UU without Victory Dance? Even if Sneasler is 100% balanced without Dire Claw, the precedent of choosing to nerf Pokémon by removing signature moves instead of banning the Pokémon will ruin the integrity of tiering. If smogon gives into the pressure of people who don't understand how precedent works, we will never hear the end of "ban salt cure"
Its speed is very bad so it does almost nothing in the current meta because everything outspeeds and OHKO it. We need to wait for the meta to stabilize to see if Hoopa-U can do something.
It does fall under that, but that doesn’t justify banning the move as a one-off. That just qualifies the Pokemon as uncompetitive due to it being a part of the Pokémon’s presence. There are no one-off moves banned.
i think dire claw's uncompetitiveness is invalidated a bit by having a hard counter in the form of steel types. you can argue that sneasler's fighting stab makes that not a factor, but then suddenly the issue is sneasler using dire claw and not the move on its own.
on the other hand, there might be some merit in looking into the move on the basis of sleep clause. while sleep clause mod does prevent the move from sleeping multiple mons at once, that's an implementation that isn't cart accurate at all. i feel like it might be worth discussing dire claw or sleep clause itself just because this implementation is so inaccurate and different from how it is in the actual game. i wouldn't blame the council for just banning the mon though
on the other hand, there might be some merit in looking into the move on the basis of sleep clause. while sleep clause mod does prevent the move from sleeping multiple mons at once, that's an implementation that isn't cart accurate at all. i feel like it might be worth discussing dire claw or sleep clause itself just because this implementation is so inaccurate and different from how it is in the actual game. i wouldn't blame the council for just banning the mon though
At this point, Volcarona may as well be the radar.
It's always been teetering on the edge of broken, and the only time it wasn't was when Talonflame was introduced.
Probably a controversial take, but Talonflame was the true glue to competitive battling and never deserved to get nerfed. We would never have many of the issues in Gen 7+ if Talonflame was simply allowed to prioritize over everything.
This isn’t entirely true. Meloetta’s Relic Song has a chance to inflict sleep of 20% (because Meloetta has Serene Grace), which I believe is actually higher than Dire Claw. I don’t believe there has ever been a movement to ban the move on that basis, even in tiers where Meloetta has been relevant.
I'm surprised that Urshifu isn't in the radar, SS is all you click 90% of the time and even resists get a lot of damage or 2HKO (haven't even used it on rain), while CC and U-turn covers the few cases where you don't want to use SS. I would say it is on a similar level to Pao minus the speed, which is important yeah, but Urshifu is definitely getting overlooked.
giving my thoughts on this meta so far - wont go over obvious brokens like magearna (unironic stored power discussion LMFAOOO) but i will talk about the others
GOD could there be a more frustrating pokemon? im talking about those busted ass unburden sets, usually supported by screens from pult that are exclusively stopped by dondozo. tera flying or tera ground + balloon are recipes for unprecedented sweeping capabilites that make this thing look like mega hawlucha.
except hawlucha cant pull a fast one on you and sleep a potential check. i’d love to see it go
really only being kept in check by magearna, urshifu and also the zamas which themselves are excellent offense killers. not much to say, same old busted chien-pao.
i advocated for this back in swsh but it gained a bunch of new tools and is now unquestionably busted. realistically only ghost types are stopping its body press set and even then most of them hate crunch and a lot of them dont even force it out, like gholdengo, who you can fish for crunch drops if its a defensive set. big fan of tera fire sets in particular to block wisp from dirge and check volcarona.
i’m leaning towards a ban on this thing but i’d like it to last a little longer before coming to a conclusion. yes, it has even more set variety than crowned thanks to a free item slot, but its also a lot frailer and lacking in the steel typing that gives crowned so much leverage and staying power, making it easier to force out and lose its dauntless shield.
these guys will probably be fine long term after magearna’s ban - the first two because screens, and urslauna because trick room will become cheese without it. and speaking of cheese…
- since light clay is on the radar, lets talk about how this fucker somehow managed to spearhead screens HO to the top of the tier. the typical structure is pult, volcarona, magearna, sneasler, and some mix of samurott/zamazenta/ursaluna/urshifu for the last two slots. im firmly on the boat of “its not the screens, its the bastards ABUSING the screens” and once magearna and a few others inevitably get banned it’ll drop off in no time.
now, before i go i’d like to drop off a team i’ve been having loads of fun with on ladder:
overqwil doesnt seem like the sort of mon you’d give a shit about but its sd set in conjunction with perfect coverage in stabs + liquidation devastates entire teams with ease. basculegion’s hydro pumps rip through a lot of screens teams i come across, sub helps to fend off sucker punch. thundurus was actually an eleki counterplay method but double dance + tera ice means it can work a similar sort of destruction. volcanion’s power in rain speaks for itself, tera ground blocks electric moves and bombs water absorb clodsires. iron treads is mostly there for hazard removal and magearna check.
GOD could there be a more frustrating pokemon? im talking about those busted ass unburden sets, usually supported by screens from pult that are exclusively stopped by dondozo. tera flying or tera ground + balloon are recipes for unprecedented sweeping capabilites that make this thing look like mega hawlucha.except hawlucha cant pull a fast one on you and sleep a potential check. i’d love to see it go
really only being kept in check by magearna, urshifu and also the zamas which themselves are excellent offense killers. not much to say, same old busted chien-pao. i advocated for this back in swsh but it gained a bunch of new tools and is now unquestionably busted. realistically only ghost types are stopping its body press set and even then most of them hate crunch and a lot of them dont even force it out, like gholdengo, who you can fish for crunch drops if its a defensive set. big fan of tera fire sets in particular to block wisp from dirge and check volcarona. i’m leaning towards a ban on this thing but i’d like it to last a little longer before coming to a conclusion. yes, it has even more set variety than crowned thanks to a free item slot, but its also a lot frailer and lacking in the steel typing that gives crowned so much leverage and staying power, making it easier to force out and lose its dauntless shield. these guys will probably be fine long term after magearna’s ban - the first two because screens, and urslauna because trick room will become cheese without it. and speaking of cheese… - since light clay is on the radar, lets talk about how this fucker somehow managed to spearhead screens HO to the top of the tier. the typical structure is pult, volcarona, magearna, sneasler, and some mix of samurott/zamazenta/ursaluna/urshifu for the last two slots. im firmly on the boat of “its not the screens, its the bastards ABUSING the screens” and once magearna and a few others inevitably get banned it’ll drop off in no time.now, before i go i’d like to drop off a team i’ve been having loads of fun with on ladder:
overqwil doesnt seem like the sort of mon you’d give a shit about but its sd set in conjunction with perfect coverage in stabs + liquidation devastates entire teams with ease. basculegion’s hydro pumps rip through a lot of screens teams i come across, sub helps to fend off sucker punch. thundurus was actually an eleki counterplay method but double dance + tera ice means it can work a similar sort of destruction. volcanion’s power in rain speaks for itself, tera ground blocks electric moves and bombs water absorb clodsires. iron treads is mostly there for hazard removal and magearna check.
check out the right side of the Radar's pic...
What are everyone's thoughts on Dialga Jr. aka H-Goodra? It seems like it could overall be a solid tank plus Body Press mon.
Dire claw pushes sneasler and sneasler pushes dire claw. If some pu Mon that couldn’t do anything to steels got dire claw (like arctovish/Dracovish last gen) it would probably be fine but we don’t know that because it doesn’t exist and sneasler just had poison jab like a normal Mon it would be totally fine and nobody would care but this isn’t my beloved draft format where bans can be made up and vary from league to league and council has made it very clear with the whole houndstone issue that they are not just banning moves one mon gets especially when the one mon itself arguably enables the degeneracy in question with its other tools (kind of like dracovish vs arctovish)
Definitely really good at blanking physical attackers if you can get it going, but seems kinda niche outside of that. Shell Amor + Shelter seems like an interesting crit me not wincon even if hoodra is kinda just okay at the moment
i think it will be very anoying to kill.
now what are our thoughts on this
i think it has the potential to be a terrifying win condition.
My bad, with the last update I didn't expect they added two mons and only saw Volc.
It's such a shame because I really like hoopa's typing and bulk, but scarf is just a _bit_ too slow to be useful and it's also too fast for trick room.
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