Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

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The last Pokemon on the Radar is clearly Volcarona, not Urshifu-Rapid Strike. I am personally okay with Volcarona being on the radar, but I would ban Light Clay before banning Volcarona as the main reason it's broken is because of Screens Support and Tera. If Tera was banned, Volcarona wouldn't even remotely be a problem.
To be fair Volcarona always finds a way to do what it does, tera only does the things simpler for it, but I'm can ensure you that even if tera gets banned people will still complaing about Volc being "match up fish" since players will use other lures to beat its checks/counters.
 
I hope one of the zamazentas get to stay so they dont have to return to being unviable in ubers. It’s not like reshiram which would obviously be broken in ou. I can actually see zamazenta working in ou. I also think people on high ladder think its less broken than low ladder but i cant say for sure. The 4MSS is a big weakness and even with all of its coverage there is still always dondozo. The question is if zamazenta would force the meta in a specific way. A way that would uncompetitive and stale, there exist common short term answers to the mon. And most mons get powerful if they get set up especially if they can change typing randomly. Zamazenta gets chipped down a lot, has answers and isnt too hard to answer from what i can tell. I feel like it can become a part of ou
 
I hope one of the zamazentas get to stay so they dont have to return to being unviable in ubers. It’s not like reshiram which would obviously be broken in ou. I can actually see zamazenta working in ou. I also think people on high ladder think its less broken than low ladder but i cant say for sure. The 4MSS is a big weakness and even with all of its coverage there is still always dondozo. The question is if zamazenta would force the meta in a specific way. A way that would uncompetitive and stale, there exist common short term answers to the mon. And most mons get powerful if they get set up especially if they can change typing randomly. Zamazenta gets chipped down a lot, has answers and isnt too hard to answer from what i can tell. I feel like it can become a part of ou
I hope zama-h stays, because I do think there are more answers to hero's body press sub set in practice, as glowking being able to keep it off the field with future sight is huge.
 
Super power on standard HDB enamorous actually makes sense in some matchups

you get a niche defense boost in some circumstances, and you perform better against new toy syndrome candidates like Goodra-H (2HKOd)

3 moves for coverage, superpower for utility, until the meta needs taunt/sub or whatever

:enamorus:
Enamorus @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Contrary
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Superpower
- Mystical Fire
 
The last Pokemon on the Radar is clearly Volcarona, not Urshifu-Rapid Strike. I am personally okay with Volcarona being on the radar, but I would ban Light Clay before banning Volcarona as the main reason it's broken is because of Screens Support and Tera. If Tera was banned, Volcarona wouldn't even remotely be a problem.
I see no reason for volc to be on the radar next to everything else atm, by the end of preHOME meta people had started to prepare for it more and it became more boxed in with what teras it can use. now I'd say its kinda healthy as it checks the zamas unless they run stone edge (which i havent seen) and mag has a sketchy mu at best vs it. pao also doesn't like the potential flame body burn
 
The last Pokemon on the Radar is clearly Volcarona, not Urshifu-Rapid Strike. I am personally okay with Volcarona being on the radar, but I would ban Light Clay before banning Volcarona as the main reason it's broken is because of Screens Support and Tera. If Tera was banned, Volcarona wouldn't even remotely be a problem.
Volc is one of the most circle jerked pokemon in OU history lol

Its not going anywhere because there's so many variables happening at one time there's 0 reason to single out volc as a problem of any of them.

Screens is broken on any sweeper

Shed tail was broken on any sweeper

Tera causes prediction issues on any sweeper and removes the defintion of "counter" in modern OU (everything is barely a check now)

There's pokemon you can't teambuild without ATM; looking at tusk, who I can't say is unhealthy but the fact every team has to use it to the point of over 50% usage to increase their chance of winning either shows a problem with hazard stacking, checking some mons like kingambit that require tusk, gholdengo cannbilizing all other spinners/defoggers so only tusk is usable, etc. Then there's volc where you invest everything into it to try and get wins off of sweeps but if you got the wrong match up volc isn't the MVP of the battle its just there while if you got a good one, volc, huge coincidence, is on the screen when victory pops off and someone is mashing their keyboard about it.

There's just no reason for volc to be on the radar especially now that volc is role compressed for being a zama check with predictable bulkarona that can't run coverage.
 

Scarfire

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I don't have a long in-depth piece to say on this, complete with an optimal set and spread and whatever, but I wanted to open a conversation on the potential use of Iron Treads remerging. I always felt like its biggest weakness in pre-home was just allowing tusk to come in 1 billion times in a tier with no actual ground answers. Such is no longer the case with Torn and Zapdos and Enamorus and Landorus and Thundurus and so on and so forth. Its typing definitely is not bad and hes filled up utility moves, I definitely think having the option there to be explored can open up more kinds of teams, as for now we are limited mainly to tusk and sometimes wack options like Corv, Ace, Glimmora...Cyclizer idk bunch of trash is what I'm trying to say.

Food for thought is all. If any of you think it's worth exploring I'd like to see some set ideas and maybe cores in response.
 
Just caught up on the last 10 pages of post. I kinda agree with the light clay radar. Screens has gotten incredibly reliable in a meta without defog, especially after grimmsnarl got one of the better movepool buffing going into Gen 9. In addition your set up sweepers have become far more explosive and Tera continues to generate free turns that offenses take advantage of.

However I see any light clay related issue going the same way Garg did, always being worth a convo, but never actually getting time for it. DLC1 comes in what will likely be less than 4 months that’s not a lot of time. Especially if we want to retest Tera at some point (which I think we should before we discuss light clay in it’s fullest).

I also want to suggest instead of banning Light clay banning Grimmsnarl, it’s real argument that it’s a support mon as good as cyclizar and banning grimmsnarl has a way lower burden of proof.
 
To be fair Volcarona always finds a way to do what it does, tera only does the things simpler for it, but I'm can ensure you that even if tera gets banned people will still complaing about Volc being "match up fish" since players will use other lures to beat its checks/counters.
Fax, Volcarona got giga buffed this gen. Most Toxic / Knock Off users that kept it in check before are gone and Roar's distribution was massively cut, which makes cutting off its sweep harder. Heatran arguably loses to Volc now since it doesn't have Toxic anymore to shut it down, it needs to run Stone Edge / Power Gem to beat it (which gets thwarted by Tera obv). Tera Blast is also pretty damn good on it, solid neutral coverage vs other Fire / Water-types pre-tera and can transform into whatever powerful coverage it wants when it does Tera. I think Tera Blast is the underlying issue with Volc atm as it is w/ the BS Teapot / Regieleki / Espathra, but if Tera Blast gets banned, Tera will be a reliable, powerful tool to keep it in check, as many Pokemon like Kingambit can run Tera Fire to stop Volc from going too crazy.
 
I also want to suggest instead of banning Light clay banning Grimmsnarl, it’s real argument that it’s a support mon as good as cyclizar and banning grimmsnarl has a way lower burden of proof.
Traditionally, in situations like this, smogon bans light clay over the dual screens user. You ban grimsnarl, people use kelfki. You ban that, people use azelf. Light clay is better than screens itself because it keeps the overpowered thing in check with less effect on the meta.
 
Just caught up on the last 10 pages of post. I kinda agree with the light clay radar. Screens has gotten incredibly reliable in a meta without defog, especially after grimmsnarl got one of the better movepool buffing going into Gen 9. In addition your set up sweepers have become far more explosive and Tera continues to generate free turns that offenses take advantage of.

However I see any light clay related issue going the same way Garg did, always being worth a convo, but never actually getting time for it. DLC1 comes in what will likely be less than 4 months that’s not a lot of time. Especially if we want to retest Tera at some point (which I think we should before we discuss light clay in it’s fullest).

I also want to suggest instead of banning Light clay banning Grimmsnarl, it’s real argument that it’s a support mon as good as cyclizar and banning grimmsnarl has a way lower burden of proof.
Dragapult does the same job as well as if not better than Grimmsnarl


I still don't understand why Mag is considered broken. From what I've seen, people have trouble with it, yes, but I don't think it is broken. With the pressence of 3 almost necessary Ground types (Lando, Tusk, and Ursaluna) and plenty of fire types (Heatran, Volcarona, Iron Moth) i don't think it's that hard to check. I've run into both doubledance stored power and Trick Room and it always underperforms severely.

Now ZamaC... That's a whole other story
Magearna really has a lot of counterplay, not just these, but most steels in the tier check it, Dondozo checks stored power sets, it's definitely S Rank in the tier, but I'm starting to lean more staple than broken
 
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Traditionally, in situations like this, smogon bans light clay over the dual screens user. You ban grimsnarl, people use kelfki. You ban that, people use azelf. Light clay is better than screens itself because it keeps the overpowered thing in check with less effect on the meta.
Dragapult does the same job as well as if not better than Grimmsnarl
I’ve heard of that pult, set but I’ve never actually seen it in action, I just can’t see it matching the usefulness of priority screens and parting shot.

I mean considering we don’t want of out right kill screens wouldn’t forcing them to use a less efficient mon achieve the same effect ?

It’s the same logic as banning cyclizar over shed tail to force teams to use the worse orthworm. Again, I don’t think we ever actually get to the point we do anything besides talking about it.
 

awyp

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I’ve heard of that pult, set but I’ve never actually seen it in action, I just can’t see it matching the usefulness of priority screens and parting shot.

I mean considering we don’t want of out right kill screens wouldn’t forcing them to use a less efficient mon achieve the same effect ?

It’s the same logic as banning cyclizar over shed tail to force teams to use the worse orthworm. Again, I don’t think we ever actually get to the point we do anything besides talking about it.
The ability to inflict Will-O-Wisp and Curse is what favors it over (Don't forget about Cursed Body), plus just the whole factor of looking at Pult and assuming it's CB, Specs, or Utility. There's a lot of benefits on why its a better screener right now in this meta over Grimm.
 
decidueye-hisuian.png
Did anyone cook with the bird and has some thought/advice to share on him?
Their best shot:
Physical Defog (Decidueye-Hisui) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Scrappy
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Atk / 60 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Defog
- Triple Arrows
- Knock Off
- U-turn

Special Defog (Decidueye-Hisui) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Scrappy
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 200 SpA / 60 Spe
Modest Nature
- Defog
- Focus Blast
- Leaf Storm
- U-turn

A defogger that beats Gholdengo thanks to Scrappy STAB Fighting moves.
 

1LDK

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Did anyone cook with the bird and has some thought/advice to share on him?
haven't tried, but seems better than corviknight in every single way possible
I cannot use tho because it shares typing with chesnaught
the absolute state of my life

speaking of fighting grasses with defog, how you guys feel about liligant? i have used her, set up, missed and died so i can just say hustle moment
 
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Their best shot:
Physical Defog (Decidueye-Hisui) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Scrappy
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Atk / 60 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Defog
- Triple Arrows
- Knock Off
- U-turn

Special Defog (Decidueye-Hisui) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Scrappy
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 200 SpA / 60 Spe
Modest Nature
- Defog
- Focus Blast
- Leaf Storm
- U-turn

A defogger that beats Gholdengo thanks to Scrappy STAB Fighting moves.
I like the special set because it threatens one hit ko’s on the 3 most used mons in OU: Great Tusk, Gholdengo, and Kingambit, (if they were not to tera). The downside is you have hit inaccurate attacks :blobpensive:.

There’s also possibilities of mixed sets. I do think its a viable defogger in OU rn.
 
haven't tried, but seems better than corviknight in every single way possible
I cannot use tho because it shares typing with chesnaught
the absolute state of my life

Chesnaught (Decidueye-Hisui) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Scrappy
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Atk / 60 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Defog
- Triple Arrows
- Knock Off
- U-turn

Chesnaught (Decidueye-Hisui) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Scrappy
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 200 SpA / 60 Spe
Modest Nature
- Defog
- Focus Blast
- Leaf Storm
- U-turn

There now you can use it.
 
Their best shot:
Physical Defog (Decidueye-Hisui) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Scrappy
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Atk / 60 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Defog
- Triple Arrows
- Knock Off
- U-turn

Special Defog (Decidueye-Hisui) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Scrappy
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 200 SpA / 60 Spe
Modest Nature
- Defog
- Focus Blast
- Leaf Storm
- U-turn

A defogger that beats Gholdengo thanks to Scrappy STAB Fighting moves.
I’ve thought about a mixed Decidueye, giga drain is actually useable due to tusk and the other grounds.

It’s just an awkward Pokémon, it has one of the best STAB + ability combinations in the game, but doesn’t have the speed or power to really make it noticeable.

Scrappy + Triple arrows on a faster and/or harder hitting and/or better secondary STAB Pokémon would be really awesome
 
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I’ve heard of that pult, set but I’ve never actually seen it in action, I just can’t see it matching the usefulness of priority screens and parting shot.

I mean considering we don’t want of out right kill screens wouldn’t forcing them to use a less efficient mon achieve the same effect ?

It’s the same logic as banning cyclizar over shed tail to force teams to use the worse orthworm. Again, I don’t think we ever actually get to the point we do anything besides talking about it.
I hear what you're saying, but smogon tends to repeat past solutions for problems, and the past solution is to ban light clay. Also, while Grimm is the best screener, other screeners have unique traits that make them strong too, like kelfki's spikes or pults curse/wisp.
 
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