Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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I feel like Terra is part of the problem with shed tail Orthworm. If you restrict/remove Terra a lot more things can answer a mon like Dragite behind a sub. Since Orthworm is likely to be pretty much sack fodder after passing a sub, you can afford to have a wall severely dented to phase out the threat, or sack a mon to break a sub if playing HO.
 

Nashrock

be happy
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As revival blessing finally becomes available, I'd like to recommend a rain core i've been trying out: Pelipper-Floatzel-Pawmot. Floatzel with band can almost OHKO everything with no water-resistance in rain, while pawmot gives it a second chance to just click wave crush all the time without worrying about all the recoil damage.
Pawmot @ Focus Sash
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rain Dance
- Revival Blessing
- Close Combat
- Double Shock
This is the pawmot set i'm using. tbh rain dance+revival blessing is cool.
The core im using: https://pokepast.es/6ed2bee789370744
 
Just want to thow my 2 cents into the mix on what I believe needs to be banned/suspected this meta after playing it alot.

Problematic Mechanics:
-Tera (Every interaction is a true 50/50 which can lose you the game, sometimes happens turn 1, makes certain mons near encounterable with proper usage, and heavily favors HO plays, will only get more broken with the introduction of more pokemon when that occurs)

Problematic Mons:
-Gholdengo (Broken ability in general, is strong enough to beat its own counters with proper tera use/unpredictable moveset, usage is nearing 40% for a reason)
-Chi-Yu (Switch in click attack button kill anything type pokemon. Even dedicated special walls struggle to deal with it or lose to it. Tera makes it an absurd pokemon, main counter is to outspeed/priority it right now which is one of the most obvious signs of a broken mon, reminds me of dracovish lol)

Problematic Moves:
Shed Tail (Enables some of the most degenerate plays ever, heavily increases the power of HO, causes games to end blinding fast with little counterplay, removes certain strategies from existing)
Revival Blessing (Free revive is just dumb and anti-competitive, is especially dumb when combined with Shed Tail or the problematic mons in general)

Hopefully the above things get looked at because the meta is suffering imo. Its not like what I posted is that radical of thinking but I feel its easier to put it into words that can be looked back on.
 
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Ehmcee

A Spoopy Ghost
is a Pre-Contributor
Don't want to be pedantic here, but this still depends on the distribution, not the move itself. If Blissey and Chansey were the only ones to get the move, people would not be saying the move is broken. The mon with it is broken
They would very much be saying the move is broken, but Blissey and Chansey are literally in the top 3 least physically offensive mons in the entire game, so they'd have literally no reason to run it over seismic toss.

Please stop using the worst possible examples to illustrate that it is impossible to determine that last respects is not the reason Houndstone got banned, we both know that mon would be UU right now if it weren't for that move.

For god's sake, a mon with 80 base attack (absolutely horrible in the current metagame) with no stab is enough to nearly 2hko a max physdef pex with half it's team dead.

(200 BP)
252+ Atk Choice Band Golbat Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 138-163 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (138, 140, 141, 143, 145, 146, 148, 149, 151, 153, 154, 156, 158, 159, 161, 163)
 
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera-Ghost Shuckle Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO

Yeah idk man, that's a Pokemon with 10 base Attack potentially 2HKOing a physically defensive Toxapex, something tells me that maybe the move might just be the problem. But hey, wouldn't want to theorymon or anything, can't say for sure it's the 300 base power move that's the problem and not that terrifying base 101 Attack or Sand Rush or something.
 
Where can we discuss item clause? I am tired of a intended Clause of Gamefreak to be ignore.
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Revival Blessing + Yuyu Fish is way stronger than I expected. I do not know how people deal with Scarf Fish
 

1LDK

It's never going to get better
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Ill be honest, from my perspective, banning hound instead of last respects was dumb, but its policy law so just yeah, but lets just stop discussing it, its basically beating a dead horse at this point

So, to not make this a 1 liner, i do have one thing to talk about, and its about present donphan, i havent actually tried him so this is pure theorymoning but looking at him and i do realize that he has some value of the table
  1. He has less atack than great tusk but more than iron threads
  2. has the same HP and defense as iron threads
  3. has more special defense than tusk, but less than threads
  4. Its the only one of the three with Ice shard (priority) meaning he has the easiest matchup of the three agaisnt air baloon Gholdengo and doesnt need to invest in speed with this trick
  5. it has sturdy, meaning as long as rocks or chip damage are not up, he will never be OHKO
  6. his pure ground typing, while not the best defensevly, is not weak to fairy and Psychic like tusk, and its not neutral to fire and weak to fighting and ground like threads
with this i have a theory set

Donphan @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Rapid Spin
- Ice Shard

Ice shard is the move that makes donphan work, ice shard does 5% to dengo, and then he gets 2 Hit ko with EQ, or, you can do 1 knock off and one eq, here you might think that why make 5% when i can just 2 shot him, well, if he is on low health, he can at least have one more attack and then dengo gets revenge killed more easily

Ice shard also means that can trip gholdengos with no HP investment, and then getting destroyed by eq

4 Atk Donphan Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 18-21 (4.7 - 5.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever
4 Atk Donphan Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 114-136 (30.1 - 35.9%) -- 47.1% chance to 3HKO
4 Atk Donphan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 264-312 (69.8 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 288-339 (75 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (everything 2 hit ko tho)


4 Atk Donphan Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 264-312 (83.5 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Donphan Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 18-21 (5.6 - 6.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever
4 Atk Donphan Knock Off vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 114-136 (36 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 144-171 (37.5 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (focus blast and shadow ball 4HKO)

what do you lads think
 
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Infiltrator Dragapult can be a counterplay to Shed Tail. It's High Speed plus Choice Specs can allow it to beat Substitutes.


Dragapult @ Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Shadow Ball
- Surf
- Fire Blast

This is an example of the counterplay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1731445850
Its not a hard counter per say but its one of the main reasons why Drag is seeing so much play as it has a good time vs Shed Tail. Doesnt make Shed Tail balanced tho.
 
My current thoughts

737A48F4-5BDC-4026-ADFD-D1173F1E314E.png

If Tera ends up staying, than the ape gotta go. Personally Ape in a Tera free meta would not be a problem since it is much easier to rkill without the guessing game of whether or not it will turn into one of 10 Tera types. Will most likely be way more balanced in Home with the genies, the birds, and more are added.

8A61760C-EB5D-4250-9B20-5E0EE99BEA26.png

The Dpulse flinch machine itself. If your only three counters are Ttar and Azu who have no recovery in this dogshit hazard stacking meta, Roaring Moon, and Shitsbun. Whether or not Tera stays we should’ve keep a Pokemon with 135 spa/100 speed, an ability that lowers SpD, NP, and Fire/Dark STAB. Specs and Boots NP are the worst ones due to their unpresidented breaking power. Even Home meta won’t be able to handle the fish since we barely dealt with Lele, now we have better Lele in fish form.

CCA0F564-C159-451F-B524-D033D65C4096.png

Gholdengo feels more like a byproduct of tons of spikes and limited hazard removal. If you think SV has it bad, look at Gen 4.

47739D82-CC7D-4C75-B478-4EBB936DBFDF.jpeg

Its that bad. Teams would either run Starmis or fall on Pokemon that resisted rocks, were immune to spikes, or both. Thats why when you see the vr rankings of generations 3-5, alot of them are

-hazard setters
-resist rocks
-immune to spikes
-immune to hazards
-hazard removers

We need to recognize just how lucky we are in a world where our best spinner also doesn’t auto lose to the best spinblocker in a 1v1. We have the privilege that is Boots, something DPP players back in the day would’ve only dreamed about. Now we can have bootleg Magic Guard on any Pokemon we want. Mons that are weak to rocks? Yes. Mons that aren’t immune to spikes? Absolutely. Mons that benefit from being harder to rkill? Of course. These things are why I feel like Gholdengo is not suspect worthy. A versatile Pokemon that can be speed control or a wallbreaker. With the banning of the other broken threats I could see teams having an easier time slotting in checks to it such as big Clod. Home will bring in more power creep and Defoggers that actually threaten Gholdengo, making it a non-issue.

B775DDCB-7E0C-4F66-B2CB-772BCDF44433.png

Derpy lizard boi is not the problem rn, I believe Shed Tail makes it and Orthworm a problem. While ofc Cyclizar is a better user of it due to high speed and Regen, We should suspect at Shed Tail first before going after Cyclizar to determine if its Shed Tail or the lizard.

F21A7547-3E03-40EB-8FA4-2CDA84FAA504.png

There is a lot of talk surrounding Espathra but nothing too suspect worthy. To me Espathra is bound to be the cheesy HO mon that ends up in UUBL as the generation goes on. Lack of ease for set up along due to its bulk and not being able to threaten most things out without a CM. Alot of priority, steels, and dark types that can live +1 Dgleam going around.

CC6FE36F-8EA2-4076-A36D-CC7CF8265BC5.png

Don’t know why Espathra was one of the main mons in the survey and not Chien-Pao. Checks like Corv, and Dondozo are easily to be worn down into 2HKO range. Boots is fine but SD LO and CB are way too difficult to switch into. Also having priority of its own means rkilling it is even harder. Home will introduce some actual checks to it like Tran, Magearna, and Watershifu.

Terastilization will only get worse once Home comes out. Are you gonna tell me two months later that its fine to have Tera Ice Eleki, Tera Flying Lando, and Tera Grass Tran running around?
 
Where can we discuss item clause? I am tired of a intended Clause of Gamefreak to be ignore.
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Revival Blessing + Yuyu Fish is way stronger than I expected. I do not know how people deal with Scarf Fish
Smogon is not on official format, so there's not a gun to smogon's heads forcing them to employ official rules. If that were the case then dynamax would have never been banned in gen 8 ou
 
Had a quick question since I'm new to all of this. Will RU come out at the end of December when we have usage stats for UU or will we have to wait for the next tier change to see RU in action?
 
Just want to thow my 2 cents into the mix on what I believe needs to be banned/suspected this meta after playing it alot.

Problematic Mechanics:
-Tera (Every interaction is a true 50/50 which can lose you the game, sometimes happens turn 1, makes certain mons near encounterable with proper usage, and heavily favors HO plays, will only get more broken with the introduction of more pokemon when that occurs)

Problematic Mons:
-Gholdengo (Broken ability in general, is strong enough to beat its own counters with proper tera use/unpredictable moveset, usage is nearing 40% for a reason)
-Chi-Yu (Switch in click attack button kill anything type pokemon. Even dedicated special walls struggle to deal with it or lose to it. Tera makes it an absurd pokemon, main counter is to outspeed/priority it right now which is one of the most obvious signs of a broken mon, reminds me of dracovish lol)

Problematic Moves:
Shed Tail (Enables some of the most degenerate plays ever, heavily increases the power of HO, causes games to end blinding fast with little counterplay, removes certain strategies from existing)
Revival Blessing (Free revive is just dumb and anti-competitive, is especially dumb when combined with Shed Tail or the problematic mons in general)

Hopefully the above things get looked at because the meta is suffering imo. Its not like what I posted is that radical of thinking but I feel its easier to put it into words that can be looked back on.
If Gholdengo and Chi-Yu were banned, would you want either of them tested again when HOME comes out, or just leave them banned? I agree with perm banning everything else.
 
Derpy lizard boi is not the problem rn, I believe Shed Tail makes it and Orthworm a problem. While ofc Cyclizar is a better user of it due to high speed and Regen, We should suspect at Shed Tail first before going after Cyclizar
Orthworm isn't even close to being problematic imo and is a much more skill based user of Shed Tail. Its lack of recovery makes its Shed Tails a lot more "you're commiting to this now" than Cyclizar which due to Regen and its speed tier, is much more riskless and degenerate. Its utility movepool makes it not just a one trick pony, despite what some have said, and its toolkit along witg its stats make it an arguably broken support pokemon. Orthworm is very unlikely to pass more than one sub, and if it does then you have earned that sub.

There is a lot of talk surrounding Espathra but nothing too suspect worthy. To me Espathra is bound to be the cheesy HO mon that ends up in UUBL as the generation goes on. Lack of ease for set up along due to its bulk and not being able to threaten most things out without a CM. Alot of priority, steels, and dark types that can live +1 Dgleam going around.
I'm not sure i follow. Espathra has a much easier time setting up than you are making it out to be. Especially when factoring screens or shed tails. And passive pokemon (or pokemon who can't threaten to KO it) just let it set up especially. Priority is often shut down by Tera typing, which makes revenging it very difficult after a couple CMs since speed boost afterwards will be boosting stored power every turn til +6 speed.

Honestly on that note, Espathra is by far the pokemon I think has the most negative impact on the tier. And I would not be sorry to see it go.
 
Sandy Shocks @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Tera Blast

Sandy Shocks has been working out for me. Ground Electric is simply a stellar offensive typing that hits a lot of the walls in the tier super effectively, not to mention that it eats through all 3 unaware mons in a flash. Great pivot as well. Tera Ice is for Ting-Lu and boltbeam though you could probably tera into something better
 
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As revival blessing finally becomes available, I'd like to recommend a rain core i've been trying out: Pelipper-Floatzel-Pawmot. Floatzel with band can almost OHKO everything with no water-resistance in rain, while pawmot gives it a second chance to just click wave crush all the time without worrying about all the recoil damage.
Pawmot @ Focus Sash
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rain Dance
- Revival Blessing
- Close Combat
- Double Shock
This is the pawmot set i'm using. tbh rain dance+revival blessing is cool.
The core im using: https://pokepast.es/6ed2bee789370744
Floatzal, huh? I've been trying out different rain mons. I was experimenting Azumarill, Basculin, and Quaquaval, with Azumarill probably being the best of the 3. But I never considered Floatzel. It's not that strong compared to Barraskewda, right? Wouldn't you be better off just using Barraskewda?
 
Alright, what consistently deals with Grimmsnarl? Defog is unreliable in Gholdengo land, and every Taunter gets Taunted.

What consistently deals with this thing without getting Parting Shot'd into a check?

The only Pokémon that deals with it that I've used myself is Scizor, but every Taunter gets shut down and nothing can usually stop it from setting up screens.
 

Pluim

formerly goodra4thewin
Shed Tail I believe should be banned as opposed to Cyclizard if it is deemed broken. I do certainly think speed and regenerator help immensely in making Cyclizard such a great Pokemon to run, however I don't think that makes the move okay.

Taking a look at Orthworm, it has no recovery outside of Chesto Berry Rest. So usually it could only fire of 1 Shed Tail. However I believe this is enough for Pokemon like Espathra, Dnite and Annihilape. That is easier said than done as Orthworm is slow and frail on the special side. However, if it gets in on some Pokemon, such as Glimmora, a lot of bulky pokemon, a free Shed Tail is easily passed. I see arguments that Shed Tail on Orthworm is fine as it rewards skill, and while this is true, it can still be abused to the same potential as Cyclizard in a lot of situations.

Orthworm then takes the hit and passes of a slow sub which can prove fatal in this metagame. The best scenario for the opponent is they switch into a counter to your set up sweeper, however it is hard to find a pokemon that counters a combination of the previously mentioned Shed Tail abusers when the Orthworm player switches after. Even Chi-Yu behind a sub can work as a measure against priority.

I believe its lack of recovery isn't an issue in this current climate, as sweepers just need 1 chance to sweep and its over.

If Tera gets banned I'll reconsider; and honestly I do think Shed Tail will probably be fine as a move then, but for now these are my thoughts on Shed Tail and Cyclizard.
 

KamenOH

formerly DynamaxBestMeta
Since he can't have 5 moves, you can send your own Dark and start firing attacks or boosting.
Yeah, if its running HO support, it needs light clay and both screens, even parting shot. Taunt is the main move, but if it has to it can run its fairy type dick slapper, whatever its called. If it does that, though, it loses a great amount of utility. So it either folds to any dark type, or is gimped.
TLDR: Chi-Yu or Chien-Pao its fairy tale ass
 
Since he can't have 5 moves, you can send your own Dark and start firing attacks or boosting.
So basically, Chien-Pao, Kingambit, and Roaring Moon can cheese the non-Thunder Wave variants. Yeah, that makes sense. I had used them a lot earlier in the meta, but wanted to take a break from them to try new things.

You bring up a good point though, gonna have to start using more setup Darks again.

Yeah, if its running HO support, it needs light clay and both screens, even parting shot. Taunt is the main move, but if it has to it can run its fairy type dick slapper, whatever its called. If it does that, though, it loses a great amount of utility. So it either folds to any dark type, or is gimped.
TLDR: Chi-Yu or Chien-Pao its fairy tale ass
Only problem with Chi-Yu vs Grimmsnarl for me is it usually ends up Light Screen'd on and swapped into another threat, but admittedly I've never used Nasty Plot Chi-Yu before, so I'll give that a try.

My mind had been pulling me towards making more teams with Chien-Pao recently, so I think I subconsciously remembered it blanks Grimmsnarl lol. Have to stop being stubborn and fit it onto more teams.
 
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Alright, what consistently deals with Grimmsnarl? Defog is unreliable in Gholdengo land, and every Taunter gets Taunted.

What consistently deals with this thing without getting Parting Shot'd into a check?

The only Pokémon that deals with it that I've used myself is Scizor, but every Taunter gets shut down and nothing can usually stop it from setting up screens.
Well, u can try raging bull this move. And knock off or trick that remove the light clay could also help a lot. For most grim+ostrich team, fairy and steel moves could be a threat, like glass valiant and scarf goldengon.
 

Finchinator

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Perhaps let’s not waste pages discussing Last Respects when we have dozens of in-metagame topics of importance to focus on discussing. I am very confident it’ll be banned and Houndstone will be free’d soon enough. But there’s nothing to be done on the matter right now and belaboring the point when we have many pressing issues is wasteful
 
Alright, what consistently deals with Grimmsnarl? Defog is unreliable in Gholdengo land, and every Taunter gets Taunted.

What consistently deals with this thing without getting Parting Shot'd into a check?

The only Pokémon that deals with it that I've used myself is Scizor, but every Taunter gets shut down and nothing can usually stop it from setting up screens.
scizor is probably the most reliable option as you’ve said, bullet punch outspeeds the prankster moves and you can brick break away the screens. You can also go for a cheeky swords dance or 2 to taunt check and do some serious damage. I’ve had a lot of success leading sylveon, or iron hands with heavy slam, both are fantastic against a wide range of leads and anti leads right now, and they force grimmsnarl to choose between getting both screens up and dying or jumping out with only light screen or reflect. If it’s the former, you can bring in something with psychic fangs/brick break/defog and just get rid of them, or stall out the turns via phasing or w/e. If it’s the latter, you can also try to break or stall it out, but you can also get good mileage out of just sticking to your special Pokémon if it’s reflect or vice versa. The main thing to watch out for at that point is not letting in grimmsnarl for free to try for a second set of screens.
 
That’s the problem, it’s all a matter of time. We’ve got a double-digit number of bannable and suspectable things running around and the meta as it stands is becoming worse and not better, but bans just aren’t happening anywhere nearly as quickly as they should be. If something isn’t done soon, OU is going to start hemorrhaging players as more and more people refuse to play it until [insert broken thing] is banned.
I'm already instantly closing the match window if there's a Cyclizar....
 
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