alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
Or 350 if you’ve got Pawmot, 400 if Pawmot has a Leppa Berry. I’m really glad we nipped that in the bud at least.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
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Purifying Salt Max Defense Garganacl on a Reflect can take 25.2 - 29.7% from 300 BP Last Respects.
252+ Atk Choice Band Houndstone Last Respects (300 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Purifying Salt Garganacl through Reflect: 102-120 (25.2 - 29.7%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Houndstone Last Respects (300 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Purifying Salt Garganacl: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
350 Base Power:
252+ Atk Choice Band Houndstone Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Purifying Salt Garganacl: 237-280 (58.6 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Houndstone Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Purifying Salt Garganacl through Reflect: 118-140 (29.2 - 34.6%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
400 Base Power:
252+ Atk Choice Band Houndstone Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Purifying Salt Garganacl: 271-319 (67 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Houndstone Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Purifying Salt Garganacl through Reflect: 135-159 (33.4 - 39.3%) -- 17% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
I've been doing something similar with Umbreon trying to make stall work, except I put Yawn on it for phasing and full SpDef because I've paired it with Twave Forretress and Dozo. Specs Chi-Yu is the only way I can keep the pressure on with stall right now, it wins basically any game as soon as you go ahead on momentum and/or cripple anything faster than it, because there's literally no switchins in the tier. It's absolutely busted and doesn't belong in the tier, but I'm really glad to be able to use it. That plus Espeed Dnite for speed control/cleaning is a nice combo.
Unfortunately, with Shed Tail so omnipresent I've had to resort to running double unaware to prevent consistent sweeps, and pretty much full teams of HDB aside from Chi-Yu because hazard stack costs more to deal with than stall can afford in this meta (again, I'm running Forretress as my hazard control, for an indication of where we're at - Corv has awful 4mss in this meta and Twave with Chi-Yu is a bigger threat to most teams than anything Corv can do).
I might even try triple unaware (adding Skeledirge to my Sire/Dozo core), if/when Chi-Yu gets banned, because I really don't see any other way to deal with HO and hazard stack aside from running HO myself. Losing Heal Bell in particular hurts bad - toxic is so valuable and status on anything often breaks stall. On the plus side, it makes it easier to decide what to sack next for my free Chi-Yu kill.
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
Ah yes, and let me pull up the calcs for Blissey to explain why Iron Bundle and Flutter Mane are perfectly fine. This “but [blanket physical/special check] beats it” thing is a game you can play with virtually any mon.
Stall was briefly strong due to the relative homogeneity of threats, due to iron bundle and palafin pushing out most of the other offensive options. These pokemon could also fit well on stall. After their ban, the metagame has turned into many flavours of hyperoffense, and stall really can't build a functional defensive core.
I wanna take a moment to bring up a great mon that I've been seeing a fair amount of recently:
Hatterene @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Def / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
- Dazzling Gleam
- Psyshock
- Nuzzle
- Draining Kiss
in a primarily hazard stack meta, hatterene is naturally quite good, if a little niche, beats most hazard setters 1v1 while also being a longstanding answer to them throughout a match, ting lu is hard-walled, chomp can wear you down but you can do the same to them, glimora has to give up their sash just to try and poison you and while tusk hits you hard it also wants nothing to do with you, nuzzle has the important trait of paralyzing gholdengo (hats most obvious and most common switchin), crippling it for the rest of the game, while its not an autoadd by any means, it provides a unique support role that not a lot else can, ideally, you'd want to pair this with things that like not having to deal with hazards such as chi-yu, chien-pao, or even bootsless volc if you're confident you can keep hazzards off. overall, this mon has a really important niche and I have a feeling its only going to get even more prevalent.
now for some questions for the people:
1. have you seen any hatterenes on ladder?
2. are there any hatterene sets you're fond of?
3. what other methods of hazard denial have you found success with?
Hatterene @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Def / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
- Dazzling Gleam
- Psyshock
- Nuzzle
- Draining Kiss
in a primarily hazard stack meta, hatterene is naturally quite good, if a little niche, beats most hazard setters 1v1 while also being a longstanding answer to them throughout a match, ting lu is hard-walled, chomp can wear you down but you can do the same to them, glimora has to give up their sash just to try and poison you and while tusk hits you hard it also wants nothing to do with you, nuzzle has the important trait of paralyzing gholdengo (hats most obvious and most common switchin), crippling it for the rest of the game, while its not an autoadd by any means, it provides a unique support role that not a lot else can, ideally, you'd want to pair this with things that like not having to deal with hazards such as chi-yu, chien-pao, or even bootsless volc if you're confident you can keep hazzards off. overall, this mon has a really important niche and I have a feeling its only going to get even more prevalent.
now for some questions for the people:
1. have you seen any hatterenes on ladder?
2. are there any hatterene sets you're fond of?
3. what other methods of hazard denial have you found success with?
Don't want to be pedantic here, but this still depends on the distribution, not the move itself. If Blissey and Chansey were the only ones to get the move, people would not be saying the move is broken. The mon with it is broken
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I have tried it with DD Normal Dragonite and NP Chi-yu so far, but right now I think it is difficult to separate which of three things are making sweepers broken right now.
First, there is Shed Tail, which makes it much easier to get these mons in. I think the Cyclizar discussion has been pretty robust on this, especially with Regen not making this a one off, but Orthoworm has also been a pain when I have encountered it on the ladder. Having a sub that doesn't come from one of your four moveslots opens up a coverage or utility move which is what makes Shed Tail different than just Sub + boost + 2 moves. SubPass was annoying back in the Gen 3 days and opened up a lot of sweepers back then too. I am not sure how this is any different other than we aren't passing Sub with +6 speed and +4 attack now.
Second, there is Tera. There is another whole thread talking about it, so won't go into it much here. Tera gives sweepers way more utility on offense with extra boosts to existing STAB, unique coverage options, or a free 2nd/3rd stab. Defensively, it has value too (ie. Espartha tera fairy or fight).
Third, there is the mons themselves. If we had a meta without the above two things, I expect we would have more ways to deal with these mons. Dragonite still folds to ice moves when it is stuck as a dragon/flying and not behind a sub. Espartha has more direct checks when weak to sucker etc. That isn't to say some of these mons are not broken, especially the ostrich. But it is hard to make grand statements about any one mon given the other factors that are present.
I have been finding that a team structure that is something like hazard lead (Chomp/Glimm) + Gholdengo + Cyclizar/Orthworm/Screens Grimm + 3 sweepers is pretty much the only consistent thing I have been able to get working. Now, I am not the best player, but I haven't had as much difficulty diversifying team structures in the past, even in messy early metas like early Gen 5 for example. I expect things will open up as we move along with bans and decisions on some of these factors, but I am looking forward to what directions we see the meta go from here.
First, there is Shed Tail, which makes it much easier to get these mons in. I think the Cyclizar discussion has been pretty robust on this, especially with Regen not making this a one off, but Orthoworm has also been a pain when I have encountered it on the ladder. Having a sub that doesn't come from one of your four moveslots opens up a coverage or utility move which is what makes Shed Tail different than just Sub + boost + 2 moves. SubPass was annoying back in the Gen 3 days and opened up a lot of sweepers back then too. I am not sure how this is any different other than we aren't passing Sub with +6 speed and +4 attack now.
Second, there is Tera. There is another whole thread talking about it, so won't go into it much here. Tera gives sweepers way more utility on offense with extra boosts to existing STAB, unique coverage options, or a free 2nd/3rd stab. Defensively, it has value too (ie. Espartha tera fairy or fight).
Third, there is the mons themselves. If we had a meta without the above two things, I expect we would have more ways to deal with these mons. Dragonite still folds to ice moves when it is stuck as a dragon/flying and not behind a sub. Espartha has more direct checks when weak to sucker etc. That isn't to say some of these mons are not broken, especially the ostrich. But it is hard to make grand statements about any one mon given the other factors that are present.
I have been finding that a team structure that is something like hazard lead (Chomp/Glimm) + Gholdengo + Cyclizar/Orthworm/Screens Grimm + 3 sweepers is pretty much the only consistent thing I have been able to get working. Now, I am not the best player, but I haven't had as much difficulty diversifying team structures in the past, even in messy early metas like early Gen 5 for example. I expect things will open up as we move along with bans and decisions on some of these factors, but I am looking forward to what directions we see the meta go from here.
Hi, local Hatterene fangirl here.I wanna take a moment to bring up a great mon that I've been seeing a fair amount of recently:
Hatterene @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Def / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
- Dazzling Gleam
- Psyshock
- Nuzzle
- Draining Kiss
in a primarily hazard stack meta, hatterene is naturally quite good, if a little niche, beats most hazard setters 1v1 while also being a longstanding answer to them throughout a match, ting lu is hard-walled, chomp can wear you down but you can do the same to them, glimora has to give up their sash just to try and poison you and while tusk hits you hard it also wants nothing to do with you, nuzzle has the important trait of paralyzing gholdengo (hats most obvious and most common switchin), crippling it for the rest of the game, while its not an autoadd by any means, it provides a unique support role that not a lot else can, ideally, you'd want to pair this with things that like not having to deal with hazards such as chi-yu, chien-pao, or even bootsless volc if you're confident you can keep hazzards off. overall, this mon has a really important niche and I have a feeling its only going to get even more prevalent.
now for some questions for the people:
1. have you seen any hatterenes on ladder?
2. are there any hatterene sets you're fond of?
3. what other methods of hazard denial have you found success with?
1) Hatterene seems to have gained a bit more popularity as the meta is developing. I've seen her on more and more teams simply thanks to Magic Bounce and good defensive profile as an anti-lead.
2) I like the classic Calm Mind set that runs Draining Kiss, Psyshock and Mystical Fire. Pretty reliable overall. However, I've been this one team that's been featured in one of PokeAimmd's videos that reached the top of the ladder. It has a Hatterene in there that abuses Shed Tail and Screens to set up a Stored Power sweep.
Hatterene @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 204 Def / 52 Spe
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Draining Kiss
- Nuzzle
Ability: Magic Bounce
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 204 Def / 52 Spe
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Draining Kiss
- Nuzzle
3) Taunting with Grimmsnarl is always effective against most hazard setters lol
Hatterene has become my new favorite Pokemon so I've been using her in all my teams (made by me or from other people). Underrated pick in a metagame without Heatran to ruin your day. Oh, and Nuzzle is pretty good on her! Yellow color is always helpful to get free set up turns.
There's a post in the RMT thread from the guy who hit top of ladder with that team. Also a lengthy video to accompany it.
Sweet! I gotta check it out, thanks for the info!
The first ever SV OU tiering survey is up! Please respond if you have any interest in our flagship metagame: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/#post-9422759
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Sun through Light Screen: 65-77 (9.1 - 10.7%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Purifying Salt Garganacl in Sand through Light Screen: 33-39 (8.1 - 9.6%)
Here have some more calcs, if you didnt think calcs vs a maxed mon that inherently halves ghost damage through reflect was enough
unban kyogre ty
New gen novelty has died out pretty quickly for me, but i believe in the council to work up with some solution in the near future, we'll see whenever we get the survey and what people think about the meta. It is hard to deal with for now though, yeah.
Appreciate the council's proactivity in involving the community, a lot.
Reading through the survey made me curious if people have had success with Shed Tail on Orthworm. I think it's the straw that breaks the camel's back on Cyclizar because of Regen, but has felt underwhelming on Orth.
Reading through the survey made me curious if people have had success with Shed Tail on Orthworm. I think it's the straw that breaks the camel's back on Cyclizar because of Regen, but has felt underwhelming on Orth.
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
Orthworm can be an annoying little shit if you give it room to breathe. If your opponent leads Glimmora and you lead Orthworm, congrats, you just guaranteed something a sub because Glimmora has a grand total of literally zero moves that hit Earth Eater Orthworm for even neutral damage (besides Tera Blast sometimes, but no one runs that). Orthworm is slow, physically bulky, and pure Steel with a ground immunity is a defensive typing most Pokémon would commit arson for, so it can sponge a physical hit and pass a sub to anything, which actually makes a well-played Orthworm more oppressive than Cyclizar—Cyclizar’s so fast that whatever it passes the sub to usually risks eating a hit and losing the sub. Orthworm’s one weakness is that you have to actually think in order to use it properly (and that it can’t run Scarf Knock Off to eat Dragapult and eliminate the only real threat to Sub + Screens), which is where Cyclizar stands head and shoulders over it.
I got my butt kicked by one Orthworm with Sitrus Berry+Shed Tail where it survived one hit but got enough health to pass a winning Shed Tail Sub'. But otherwise, it's a lot riskier on Orthworm. You have to be in the perfect situation where it can pass its sub since you probably won't get another opportunity later. Great risk/reward ratio compared to Cyclizar who requires very little thought beyond "switching into a passive mon".
Yeah, the slow sub has felt better for enabling a setup sweeper rather than a Cycle's safe switch to whatever mon. In practice, it's obviously harder to pull off more than once in a game because of no consistent recovery. Maybe Resto Chesto instead of Sitrus?
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
If you bring in the right mon (usually Dragonite) at the right time, you only need to pull it off once.
I want to weigh in on Orthworm because, while not as bad an abuser as Cyclizar, it is still problematic with Shed Tail. If you are running a more passive, defensive pokemon, many of them can't really threaten Orthworm enough to stop the sub. Like Clodsire. Orthworm can literally come in on Clodsire for free. So if you don't predict that and immediately double switch, the sub goes up. And as other people have said, you only need a single Shed Tail if you have the right set up pokemon like Dragonite, Roaring Moon, Espathra, etc.
I believe this has made it a lot harder to play slower or more defensive styles. Basically, anything that isn't HO is constantly worried about switching in a defensive pokemon and giving the opportunity for a shed tail.
I believe this has made it a lot harder to play slower or more defensive styles. Basically, anything that isn't HO is constantly worried about switching in a defensive pokemon and giving the opportunity for a shed tail.
on the contrary, I would argue that more passive teams are far less threatened by the sub-pass in the first place, as they can fit the necessary defensive answers to a sub-passed threat, for example, a more defensive team is more than willing to make the necessary sacrifices to fit in a whirlwind pokemon, or some other strategy to deal with shed tail, if anything can afford to fit super niche counterplay to things, its stall
Hi so I’m looking to try out Goodra but not sure what nature and sets would be viable currently.
Mabye Modest Special Sweeper?
Is Modest better than timid?
Mabye Modest Special Sweeper?
Is Modest better than timid?
If you wanna make it the star of your show, look at her moves and think what would be better against the current meta, also, Modest vs Timid depends on how important the difference is, in the ou board, theres a thread that posts all the speed tiers, that could help
speaking of help, I have been building offensive teams and stuff, but i wanna try some stall, i know I was the one that made the post about deffogers and spinners avaliable, but what do YOU guys use as hazard removal (in stall oriented context) my guess is corvi, but i wanna know regardless
From what little of Goodra I've seen, it's probably best as a specially defensive tank, utilizing tera steel to flip it's matchups and perhaps an Assault Vest or Leftovers +Protect to either sit on attackers better or have better longetivity.
Sets I whipped up in 3 minutes:
Goodra @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy/Calm Nature
- Protect
- Sludge Bomb
- Earthquake/Dragon Pulse
- Counter
Protect is obvious, Earthquake hits a lot of strong special attackers (or Dragon Pulse for stab), Sludge Bomb catches Iron Valiant and is just a nice move to spread status, and Counter (this can be anything really) snipes physical attackers that think they MIGHT be able to force you out.
Goodra @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Dragon Pulse
- Sludge Bomb
- Earthquake
- Counter/Ice Beam/Hydro Pump/Flamethrower
Assault Vest, Goodra gets a lot of colorful coverage so you can sorta mix and match it for your needs.
edit: oh shit i forgot to set the tera types
im a fucking idiot i talked about tera steel tho so just go w that
It really can't, this gen (at least in my experience as a mid-ladder player). You need a couple unaware mons (Clod and one of Skeledirge/Dondozo) to not lose instantly to a shed tail team with stall, at least one (if not two) other Mons specifically to cover their gaping weaknesses (a Sire and Dozo team loses to Espathra pretty quickly once Stored Power builds up, for instance) and hazard removal if you don't wanna lose instantly to a hazard stack team with Knock or Trick. You also need something heavily offensive to not lose at least one mon instantly to whichever of Corv/Tusk/Dengo/Amoonguss/Chomp your unaware combo can't handle.
With limited hazard removal options and barely any viable walls (and crippling passivity in many of those that do exist), you're already struggling to fit everything you need on one team. Roar Skeledirge or Dragon Tail Chomp/Nite can do it, but you're giving up moveslots that stall doesn't have to spare because there's always another threat that your team just kinda lose to on preview without that moveslot.
Also, with revival blessing now in the game, a stall team essentially means that you're playing 8v6 in some games, because you just don't have the mon available to prevent them getting it off at least once unless the opponent is awful. It's a winnable 8v6 a lot of the time and the Revival Blessing mons aren't that great, but you need two mon that can straight up counter a lot of threats, because otherwise you will just lose to certain revival blessing teams (again, a lot of this happens on team preview if you don't have a very specific set of mon). The same but probably even more so would go for Shed Tail if Unaware didn't exist. Stall really doesn't have the room for weird mons or gimmicks this gen, which is kinda sad! I feel like it's been the style that allows lower tier gimmick or garbage mon to thrive in previous gens. Obviously very biased towards stall and I don't think there's any way to solve it within the meta that's been made available to us, but just my many, many cents on the matter.
Fat mons with respected offensive presence are gonna become the norm, I think. Skeledirge, Dondozo, Garganacl, Ting-Lu, and Orthworm can all drive play forward through direct and indirect damage, while retaining strong defensive niches that aren't total momentum saps
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