Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[coral fan]

As a mostly VGC player, I'm curious. Why do you prefer Smogon Singles over VGC? In therms of VGC, I like the quick pace, the concept of making a team where not everyone shows up, and the offensive side of it. There's also arguable more creative ideas and a chance to make support pokemon more useful. That's my opinion, I'm not objective about what I said. Why do you prefer singles?

I generally don't like metas over centralised around a limited pool of pokemon, and luck-based strategies being good and common (see: Zacian-C and Sleep Powder Venusaur respectively). I like the simplicity on a turn-to-turn basis where I have up to, like, 9 options per turn (switch or attack) vs idk, like, a lot more options per turn in doubles. I also feel like turns can feel too short in ingame VGC especially as a new player to doubles that's suddenly required to think through every possible scenario. Singles is also the default playstyle in-game, meaning it's the most easily accessible so I got into it first. I'd also argue that to me, singles is just more fun since I can immediately look back at the errors in my play or teambuilding whereas looking back at doubles games feels like "50/50"s were involved alot more where there wasn't much I could've done. But again, that's probably from a lack of experience tbh haha

 

[alephgalactus]

As a mostly VGC player, I'm curious. Why do you prefer Smogon Singles over VGC? In therms of VGC, I like the quick pace, the concept of making a team where not everyone shows up, and the offensive side of it. There's also arguable more creative ideas and a chance to make support pokemon more useful. That's my opinion, I'm not objective about what I said. Why do you prefer singles?

Aside from all the points already visited by others, which ring true for me as well, there’s just something about VGC that makes it feel like it doesn’t have soul or passion put into it, just money and formulas. Smogon is, at its core, a passion project made by fans of the game, and VGC is the result of Game Freak looking at Smogon and saying “hey, look at those guys having fun in a way we didn’t expect, I bet we can turn that into money”.

 

[bogglywoods]

I do think Annihilape can spiral out of control and be unmanageable, but most of the time it tends to be down to me making really stupid decisions that buff it more than it just being unfair. Reminds me of Demon Mew where it's countered by people who know what they're doing but can be pretty punishing if you're not sure what you're doing or how to handle it, and tera makes it a lot worse in the same way that tera makes every offensive threat with a lot worse to deal with.

 

[Gondre19Wedj]

Aside from all the points already visited by others, which ring true for me as well, there’s just something about VGC that makes it feel like it doesn’t have soul or passion put into it, just money and formulas. Smogon is, at its core, a passion project made by fans of the game, and VGC is the result of Game Freak looking at Smogon and saying “hey, look at those guys having fun in a way we didn’t expect, I bet we can turn that into money”.

Tbh, I do really disagree with you. I totally understand why you say that, but there is one big difference for me: in person events. The Pokemon Company puts a lot of effort into making in person tournaments a fantastic experience. Take a look at some of the London PWC videos. The fans are into it and the organizers clearly put a lot of time and effort in. That might be the biggest thing that has made it hard to really get into the smogon community. A lot of interactions are in forums like these and some of them tourn sour really quickly. I really wish there was a way for Smogon to be in person, but the accessibility of Pokemon Showdown has made it not necessary, especially with how global and big the community is.
The biggest example that comes to mind for me: I have not seen anything in the Showdown community that gives me chills like hearing the crowd pop off at seeing Pachirisu eat a Draco Meteor for breakfast back in 2014.
Don't get me wrong, by no means am I saying Smogon doesn't have soul, it just has felt less tangible to me because I don't find it easy to connect with people in forum posts and am awful at keeping up in Discord servers. That's just a me issue.

 

[earl]

Tbh, I do really disagree with you. I totally understand why you say that, but there is one big difference for me: in person events. The Pokemon Company puts a lot of effort into making in person tournaments a fantastic experience. Take a look at some of the London PWC videos. The fans are into it and the organizers clearly put a lot of time and effort in. That might be the biggest thing that has made it hard to really get into the smogon community. A lot of interactions are in forums like these and some of them tourn sour really quickly. I really wish there was a way for Smogon to be in person, but the accessibility of Pokemon Showdown has made it not necessary, especially with how global and big the community is.
The biggest example that comes to mind for me: I have not seen anything in the Showdown community that gives me chills like hearing the crowd pop off at seeing Pachirisu eat a Draco Meteor for breakfast back in 2014.
Don't get me wrong, by no means am I saying Smogon doesn't have soul, it just has felt less tangible to me because I don't find it easy to connect with people in forum posts and am awful at keeping up in Discord servers. That's just a me issue.

clearly you never saw finch’s zard dodge omari p’s diamond storm

 

[Gondre19Wedj]

clearly you never saw finch’s zard dodge omari p’s diamond storm

I'm not talking about the actual move. I'm talking about the crowd reation. Seeing a chat go 5000mph is nothing like hearing a crowd roar imo.

 

[Count Riario]

I'm not talking about the actual move. I'm talking about the crowd reation. Seeing a chat go 5000mph is nothing like hearing a crowd roar imo.

Now you're comparing live events vs online events, which does not equate to VGC vs Smogon singles. If Smogon held large live events, which would you prefer? I thought you were asking about the differences in combat styles (4v4 doubles vs 6v6 singles), which is a different debate entirely imo.

 

[Outhman]

This is just blatantly wrong.

In Last Respects case, it seems clear the move is broken and not Houndstone itself. But in order to ban the move instead, we need to prove it is broken first. It may seem obvious, but since Houndstone is the only pokemon that gets access to it, it's impossible to prove whether Last Respects is broken or not, which is why we have to wait for Basculeigon to be released so the council can reconsider the Houndstone ban.

Is Iron Bundle broken because of Freeze-Dry? Yes, if you banned Freeze Dry it wouldn't be nearly as good. But Freeze-Dry itself is not a broken move.

The logic is consistent, you just somehow have this completely backwards. If Rage Fist was broken on every pokemon that gets it, it could be banned, sure.

Thanks for at least properly engaging in a critical argumentation and providing reasoning as to why i'm wrong unlike that other guy, I appreciate it. I understand the nuance in banning the move or mon better now

So the move is clearly broken, but it doesn't work as evidence cause every user of the move isn't problematic, if i got that right

As a mostly VGC player, I'm curious. Why do you prefer Smogon Singles over VGC? In therms of VGC, I like the quick pace, the concept of making a team where not everyone shows up, and the offensive side of it. There's also arguable more creative ideas and a chance to make support pokemon more useful. That's my opinion, I'm not objective about what I said. Why do you prefer singles?

I much prefer singles dynamic because there are constant tier shifts, but also because some gimmicks tend to make some pokemons a lot more centralizing. Best example would be the pool of Mega pokemon you could use in Singles vs VGC

I also hate the restricted format 90% of the time even though my favourite pokemon of all time happens to be one of the best every gen. But ngl the new game novelty is really interesting to watch/discuss about

Lastly, it's also less punishing, even if you're down less pokemons you can still make it up, in VGC it's much harder to come back from a deficit than singles

 

[ritch.]

Who do you guys think is getting banned this weekend, we know Palafin is going bye-bye, so who else?

 

[Winterblack]

I'm not having a blast right now on competitive but I fear is a problem of mine not getting the point of the current meta.
Either way I'd like to post some of the builds I'm having more fun with, some of them seem quite "successful".

Bulky Leviathan
Dondozo @Chesto berry/leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Steel/Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
- Liquidation
- Curse
- Rest
- Body press / Earthquake / Avalanche / Ice fang

This thing should come in only against setting up attackers (ex. it wins against Taunt + bulk up + Jet punch + Drain punch Palafin even after a Taunt and some minor HP loss) and as a late game win-con, after all the Special attackers are out.
Liquidation is the main STAB move. The optimal set would be the one using Body Press, since it maximizes its optimal defence (also it has decent coverage). Earthquake is an ok choiche to catch off guard some electric switch in. I was wondering if avalanche could be viable since the fact it has low priority doesn't matter that much since Dondozo moves second pretty much with every move; more consistent would be Ice fang as an Ice move when your opponent is not attacking the same turn.
Tera type Steel is good since Steel type is still the best defence-wise, while grass type is very convenient to allow Dondozo to resist is major weakness in Grass/Electric attacks.
Chesto berry is the item of choice on a curse/rest set, even tho I feel like with a decent hazards removal team leftovers give Dondozo even more longevity, at the cost of slowing down Dondozo even more on the first turns of sleep.

PRO: More than awesome HP, Atk and Def and ability in Unaware, allowing Dondozo to setup while also denying your opponent to do the same.
CONS: Super Slow. Low Special defence. Dondozo is not a huge fan of Taunt.

Suicidal Gonorrea
Glimmora @ Focus Sash
Ability: Toxic Debris
Tera Type: Ground /Ghost
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Mortal Spin
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock
- Power Gem/Energy Ball

You would be surprised on how many leads and offensive pokémon Glimmora can highly damage or kill (notably other defensive Glimmoras without Air baloon), this set pairs SUPER well with Gholdengo and its ability to spin/defog block and aggressive oriented teams which benefits a lot from a potential stealth rock + double toxic spikes on the opponent field and mortal spin access.
Mortal spin is a super good move able to break sashes and inflict poison status while obviously removing hazards.
I found earth power as the most reliable coverage move, while power gem is a strong STAB move able to damage non SpDef invested Corviknight which is a common pivot into Glimmora, while Energy ball deals tons of damage to water types.
Tera ground enpowers Earth power, and grants some chances to survive a ground attack after the sash is broken, while ghost tera is super good to create some spin-block gimmicks while removing x4 ground x2 water x2 psichic and gives Glimmora an immunity to other wise neutral Fighting moves from common leads like Great Tusk.
Focus sash allows Glimmora to potentially 2HKO some pokémons and most of all setup 2 layers of toxic spikes from phisical attackers that would otherwise 1HKO it without it.

PRO: More than decent Spa, decent Speed and coverage, paired with an awesome ability in Toxic Debris and to remove hazards while inflicting poison.
CONS: Invite the opponent for setting up. Tons of weaknesses. T debris doesn't work on special attacks (luckily).

 

[Maldorollo]

First time poster, though have played since the days of Gen 4 Shoddy Battle, and I've basically participated in every generation in some way. I find myself getting drawn more to VGC than singles (which was previously my bread and butter) just because of the variety of interesting strategies that I seem to find in VGC. Got to Master Ball a few times with rented teams and I enjoyed the added level of complexity, from team preview and decision making, to the use of more doubles favoring moves, abilities and even Pokemon who don't thrive in a singles environment.

I'm not sure how to just the overall mood towards Tera from here, but a lot of it is disappointingly negative, and feels like a kneejerk reaction towards what is likely the best mechanic Gamefreak have ever introduced for team complexity. Tera types are settling into a more predictable meta already, allowing lots of room for counter-picking and preparation. It requires skill in a way that I do agree, didn't suit Dynamax in a singles environment. If Tera does end up getting banned then I'll likely stick with VGC, but I'd like to try my hand at both this generation.

Additionally I think once Palafin (definitely) and Bundle (potentially) are banned that the meta should settle into something exciting with lots of depth.

 

[woopdoopity]

The way that I see things, there are three things that I feel definitely should get banned:

1. Palafin
This guy is busted, straight up. He constricts the way you have to play in a very overwhelming manner. With very few checks and only one counter (Dondozo), he can switch into a LOT even though his ability does force you to spend two turns switching. These turns can still be used effectively in order to not lose momentum, and Jet Punch is absurdly strong. I do wonder if Jet Punch could be part of the issue- I'm not advocating for a JP ban, but if he had to rely on Aqua Jet instead, I think he definitely approaches the realm of reasonable.

2. Bundle
Bundle's incredible speed stat outspeeds everything but Dragapult, a mon that doesn't check Bundle, unboosted. Bundle almost forces you to run Scarf, as even Pokemon that resist Bundle struggle greatly to switch into a Hydro Pump, AND the bird finds ample opportunities to switch into physical mons with a defense stat that, while not great, allows it to live hits you probably wouldn't expect it to.

For me, at the current state of the meta, I find that mons that are overwhelming without needing or regarding Tera to be the mons we need to keep on the radar, and both of these mons fulfill that criteria more than any others in the meta.

Finally, I am most definitely on the "Ban Tera" train. I don't think that we can reach a stable metagame with Tera; while I absolutely love the creativity that can be used with tera typing, in my eyes it makes the meta game incredibly difficult for newcomers to enter as there are just so many different things to have to be considered on top of the inherent complexity of Pokemon that draws people to competitive play in the first place. Maybe my perspective isn't the right way to decide whether or not a generation-defining mechanic should be banned (in fact, I don't think it is at all), but I think that it's an important perspective to be considered.

 

[Poirepi]

Flutter Mane, Houndog, Palafin, Roaring Moon, Iron Bundle, Goldhengo, Annihilape... at this rate, you'd better start making a new tier, which you could call "OU if smogon knew how to adapt to changes". Perhaps the old pokemons which we used to rely on (Corvi, Chansey, Dragapult aso) do not fit the same role as before. But instead of letting something develop, we prefer to try and make the new metagame similar or so to what we were used to. No doubt that following this pattern, Tera will be banned, then the booster energy item, so that, when Home comes, we can once again run the same Corvi/Ferro/Heatran/Pult teams.

 

[Pabloaram]

Flutter Mane, Houndog, Palafin, Roaring Moon, Iron Bundle, Goldhengo, Annihilape... at this rate, you'd better start making a new tier, which you could call "OU if smogon knew how to adapt to changes". Perhaps the old pokemons which we used to rely on (Corvi, Chansey, Dragapult aso) do not fit the same role as before. But instead of letting something develop, we prefer to try and make the new metagame similar or so to what we were used to. No doubt that following this pattern, Tera will be banned, then the booster energy item, so that, when Home comes, we can once again run the same Corvi/Ferro/Heatran/Pult teams.

Play uber with the 2 legendaries. They also get banned whitout developing the meta

 

[Eeveeto]

Flutter Mane, Houndog, Palafin, Roaring Moon, Iron Bundle, Goldhengo, Annihilape... at this rate, you'd better start making a new tier, which you could call "OU if smogon knew how to adapt to changes". Perhaps the old pokemons which we used to rely on (Corvi, Chansey, Dragapult aso) do not fit the same role as before. But instead of letting something develop, we prefer to try and make the new metagame similar or so to what we were used to. No doubt that following this pattern, Tera will be banned, then the booster energy item, so that, when Home comes, we can once again run the same Corvi/Ferro/Heatran/Pult teams.

Bro, Ubers is an official Tier just like OU, you can play it too!

 

[Finchinator]

Flutter Mane, Houndog, Palafin, Roaring Moon, Iron Bundle, Goldhengo, Annihilape... at this rate, you'd better start making a new tier, which you could call "OU if smogon knew how to adapt to changes". Perhaps the old pokemons which we used to rely on (Corvi, Chansey, Dragapult aso) do not fit the same role as before. But instead of letting something develop, we prefer to try and make the new metagame similar or so to what we were used to. No doubt that following this pattern, Tera will be banned, then the booster energy item, so that, when Home comes, we can once again run the same Corvi/Ferro/Heatran/Pult teams.

I mean if you don’t like bans, play Ubers or AG. We are trying to have an actually playable, competitive tier. We haven’t even banned the majority of the things you mentioned and any bans so far have been on egregious things. Not sure what you want from us when you’re just going to stir the pot with nonsense and conspiracies.

 

[Finchinator]

Either your IQ is very low, or you were trying to make a joke.
Uber is never a thing before Home comes. But i bet that Houndog will be amazing there once Arceus returns, true.

Like I said, it's bad faith to say that Uber is a tier before Pokemon Home is released. Remember the very begining of Uber SW.

 

[Poirepi]

I mean if you don’t like bans, play Ubers or AG. We are trying to have an actually playable, competitive tier. We haven’t even banned the majority of the things you mentioned and any bans so far have been on egregious things. Not sure what you want from us when you’re just going to stir the pot with nonsense and conspiracies.

Finchinator, you're a smart man, so don't pretend that Ubers is a thing before Home ! And I do not see any "conspiracies" ; it's the pattern that the council is taking. And before calling a point "nonsense", make sure to understand what I say.

 

[Red Raven]

Flutter Mane, Houndog, Palafin, Roaring Moon, Iron Bundle, Goldhengo, Annihilape... at this rate, you'd better start making a new tier, which you could call "OU if smogon knew how to adapt to changes". Perhaps the old pokemons which we used to rely on (Corvi, Chansey, Dragapult aso) do not fit the same role as before. But instead of letting something develop, we prefer to try and make the new metagame similar or so to what we were used to. No doubt that following this pattern, Tera will be banned, then the booster energy item, so that, when Home comes, we can once again run the same Corvi/Ferro/Heatran/Pult teams.

There is a tier that is basically 'ou if smogon knew how to adapt to changes'. It's called 'ubers' and you can actually look it up

Either your IQ is very low, or you were trying to make a joke.
Uber is never a thing before Home comes. But i bet that Houndog will be amazing there once Arceus returns, true.

Dafuq is 'uber is never a thing before Home comes' supposed to mean? Also, you do realize that it's barely been a week since SV has been release right? Dafuq do you expect? Everything to get settled the day the games drop? No one here is a miracle worker

 

[Winterblack]

Thing with booster energy is: you have 1.3x boost without the disadvantage Choice Band/Spec have, and 1.5x boost on speed (the same as scarf) without any malus on average 570 BST pokémon. You could also give them a Booster/Choice under Field condition to get an additional boost.
I mean...

 

[Finchinator]

Finchinator, you're a smart man, so don't pretend that Ubers is a thing before Home ! And I do not see any "conspiracies" ; it's the pattern that the council is taking. And before calling a point "nonsense", make sure to understand what I say.

I understand that you’re claiming we have banned or will ban a half dozen things more than what we already have. I understand that you’ve got your own, preconceived notion of what is going to happen.

The only lack of understanding is you with regards to our tiering system. Generation nine is filled with unique Pokémon and we have been clear countless times that we are only banning egregious Pokemon this early and keeping an open mind, letting the playerbase decide about Tera.

You have ignored this and constantly posted complaining about prospects that aren’t even real. Then, you called someone “low IQ” for posting opposing you. You’re the problem here, not us.

 

[1LDK]

"OU if smogon knew how to adapt to changes"

Okay but fr, i always thought that OUBL (shit ubers but ubers) could be kinda fire fr, speaking of fire

Rotom-Heat @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 168 SpD / 88 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Overheat
- Will-O-Wisp
- Eerie Impulse

How to shit on gholdengo part 99999, today we bring you Spedef heat, he no longer has access to Toxic nor Pain Split but Eerie Impulse sounds cute to mess with special attackers, i guess you can be a normal human a go with nasty plot or hex/shadow ball but i think that messing with both sides of the spectrum is cool

 

[Poirepi]

I understand that you’re claiming we have banned or will ban a half dozen things more than what we already have. I understand that you’ve got your own, preconceived notion of what is going to happen.

The only lack of understanding is you with regards to our tiering system. Generation nine is filled with unique Pokémon and we have been clear countless times that we are only banning egregious Pokemon this early and keeping an open mind, letting the playerbase decide about Tera.

You have ignored this and constantly posted complaining about prospects that aren’t even real. Then, you called someone “low IQ” for posting opposing you. You’re the problem here, not us.

Apparently, you didn't understand the irony either...
If I cannot express what I think, don't call it a "discussion" topic.
I fully understand your tiering system ; I never posted anything, but I've been playing and following the news for 10years.
The previous generations didn't introduce such huge new mechanics , abilities and pokemons, so banning the black sheeps wasn't so bad ; here, Gamefreaks clearly wanted a paradigmatic shift, more offensive oriented. What I regret, is that you're not trying to give it a chance.

 

[Finchinator]

The metagame is filled with mindless offense for the most part. The things we want to ban like Palafin and Bundle require heavily defensive Pokemon that really only fit in stall, so it’s not like banning them will make matters worse.

You making up some narrative that we are forcing a defensive metagame is your problem. If you can’t see why the cover legendaries start as Uber and you can’t see the clear sarcasm Pabloaram is using, then maybe take a step back and lurk more

 

[1LDK]

Bro is a joke

nah bro he just has the unawere ability he is trying to counter Palafin