Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion [ SEE POST #2732 - REVIVAL BLESSING UPDATE]

My two cents on the new additions to the tiering radar
Gholdengo

Without a doubt the best enabler to entry hazard spam. Being able to block all forms of removal is really good. Its MU into Corviknight is great and so the only spinners I've found causing any fear for me are BIG Tusk and to a lesser extent Iron Treads. Corv U-turning on a Gholdengo switchin is also always pretty safe and has the benefit of popping Balloon if they're running it.

For some more off-meta counterplay, Torkoal, while not really able to switch into Gholdengo, at least makes it think twice about switching in, and I think Sun has a lot of potential in this meta (esp if Bundle and Palafin get axed). I haven't seen any (probably for good reason considering the ground and water infestation), but in the future I don't think Coalossal is completely outlandish either. I don't feel as though Cyclizar or Tsareena are entirely without tools to deal with Cheese man either.

Even without Gholdengo hazards are going to be an omnipresent force in this meta for the time being due to the lack of removal availability. I don't think its unreasonable to suggest that more Pokemon should be opting into Boots. There is a substantial opportunity cost to this but especially if things slow down a little having boots on the likes of Chien-Pao, Iron Bundle, Dragapult, etc. will probably do a lot for their longevity.

I think this is not quickban worthy. Its great at punishing opponent mistakes but the counterplay feels adequate to me so far.

Annihilape

Monke seems pretty reasonable. It does require meticulous counterplay and you have to be very selective about when you're going to choose to hit it, and the Tera Water variant is really strong. The solid bulk means that it can almost always one-for-one at least in my experience, and its tough to handle, but I find it significantly less egregious than something like Palafin. Before it gets rolling the Ghost coverage is not nearly as threatening and you can heavily chunk it before it even has a chance to setup. Since entry hazards are everywhere in this meta as well, the natural bulk gets undercut slightly.
Also, its slow. Monke definitely gets victimized by faster mons, especially those that can hit it hard neutrally or SE like Chien-Pao, Iron Bundle, or Roaring Moon.
Also not quickban worthy in my opinion.
 
You said “it doesn’t 2HKO everything” but you’ve just posted a bunch of mons that get 2HKO’d by Specs + Spikes. Considering how easy it is to set hazards and how hard it is to remove them, you need to factor Spikes into every calc you do right now. That’s what makes Iron Bundle such a problem—most of its so-called “checks” start the battle with 75% HP. Blissey and Chansey are the only things that can reliably switch into Iron Bundle at the moment, unless you’re using something like Tera Steel Water Absorb, which denies you Tera on the rest of your team.
The threshold for being too strong offensively is pretty low if we move it to "2HKOs almost everything... with a choice item... and three layers of spikes".
 
I can sorta understand Gholdengo being on the radar, but is Annihilape really that bad? I find him really hard to use consistently unless I waste my tera to keep him in a bit longer, and I already think Tera leads to a deeply unenjoyable meta. Even with Leftovers and Bulk Up, by the time he gets a good BP Rage Fist or two off he's easy pickings for most things faster than it in my experience. Sure he's good and can snowball with bad counterplay, but I don't really see that as banworthy.
 

Karxrida

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I mean, Dugtrio was effectively the only Pokémon with Arena Trap because using Diglett or Trapinch is a great way to get laughed out of a room. But this avenue of discussion isn’t going to take us anywhere interesting or new, so let’s turn to another topic that I’ve been thinking about recently.
I distinctly remember people meming with those two during Gen 7 and still getting actual results. As long as they could kill the one thing they needed to they did their job, so Arena Trap was indeed the problem.

Similar reason as to why Shadow Tag got a wholesale ban. You could trap something with freaking Wynaut and it would work.
 
Lol I'll look into those Gallade teams!

Also question, on what basis do pokemons get on the radar? Discussion among the council? Among the players? And at what point will we start suspect tests regarding any tier based decision?
Not on the council, but been playing since gen 6:

If something is broken enough for a quick ban to be on the table, you can bet that discussion among the council, players, usage, overall meta impact, etc. will all reflect that. If Rayquaza was usable in OU tomorrow, it would be a hot topic of discussion in this thread, the forum leaders would certainly be aware of it and working quickly to address it, and the overall level of brokenness would be reflected in ladder and tournament usage.

Usually, you land a spot like this either by being one of two things:

- Uncompetitive: An uncompetitive element makes the game revolve around some gimmicky/ RNG based element instead of skill. An example of an uncompetitive gimmick would be Baton Pass chains, while an example of uncompetitive RNG would be evasion moves.

- Broken: Something can be broken if its power is disproportionately high, and deemed too much for the tier. Often, this leads to the overuse of this Pokémon, or for all teams to use drastic counter play to handle it, making its presence in the tier too unhealthy. On the power front, this includes most powerful cover legends as well as mons like Mega Lucario in gen 6 or Marshadow immediately upon its introduction. The over centralizing argument finds its poster child in Dracovish, an incredibly powerful mon who forced Seismitoad on most teams last gen.

This isn’t a fine line, and many mons can blur the line. Oftentimes, people like to encourage complex bans, which is something Smogon really strays away from. Generally, Smogon likes to keep bans simple. Perhaps Zygarde wouldn’t have been broken without 1,000 Arrows. Perhaps Mega Mawile wouldn’t be broken without Sucker Punch. Perhaps Dynamax wouldn’t be broken if it was only usable on RU or below mons. Perhaps Kyogre would be usable if it was capped at level 80. We could do these complex bans on any conceivable mon, but that would be ridiculous. If a Pokémon is broken, 9 times out of 10, the simplest thing to do is to simply ban the Pokémon. If there’s some element that is banworthy on TONS of Pokémon, and it’s clear that THAT is the problem (Dynamax, King’s Rock, etc.) then that element will be banned.
 

Finchinator

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So everyone decided to collectively ignore the part where I said the discussion wouldn’t lead anywhere new so we should talk about something else, huh?
We were really just trying to inform you of a past development. It’s no slight to you, who we appreciate posting a great deal. It is indeed best we shift to other topics at this point
 
Has anyone found any success with Toedscruel? I've been experimenting with hazard control in all areas so I can build up my thoughts on Gholdengo, and I've come across Toedscruel who just seems so interesting. The problem is partly how mediocre his stats are, but mostly the massive case of 4MSS. I mean the movepool is crazy good. Earthquake, Earth Power, Energy Ball, Giga Drain, Knock Off, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Sludge Bomb, Toxic, Spore, Foul Play, Rapid Spin, and Taunt. I mean the options are insane, but it just can't be fit into one set.

The fact that its ability allows it to Spore Garganacl and Gholdengo is pretty cool and i think the main reason I want to see Toedscruel work.

Edit: Forget to add Leech Seed
 
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If Rayquaza was usable in OU tomorrow, it would be a hot topic of discussion in this thread, the forum leaders would certainly be aware of it and working quickly to address it, and the overall level of brokenness would be reflected in ladder and tournament usage.
I can already see the posts saying “we shouldn’t do anything about Rayquaza until we take care of Iron Bundle”

…wait, shit, Bundle does actually 1v1 pre-setup Rayquaza, maybe that wasn’t a good example
 
Some initial thoughts:

:Ting-Lu: Ting-Lu is a very useful mon. Monstrous HP, enough attack to be threatening even without investment, and good enough coverage to get the job done. I’ve experimented with Ting-Lu as a hazard setter, AV , and a set with Taunt + Sand Tomb + Ruination and while it hasn’t all been great, it has a lot of tools in its arsenal to fit into different builds. :Chi-Yu: Chi-Yu is another solid choice, mostly utilizing NP, Taunt and STABs. I’ve found that NP and HDB outweighs the immediate benefits of Specs. NP + Flame Charge and NP + WoW have both been underwhelming in my experience.

:Espathra: Espathra has some really great potential. I really like the CM + SP set, it’s the best Stored Power set in a while. More underwhelming, a set using Lumina Crash, coverage and U-Turn can cause some havoc too, without needing as much set-up to get rolling. Guaranteed two-stage SDef drop can definitely soften some would be checks, but it still has trouble with some bulkier Steel types due to a lack of sufficient coverage.

:Clodsire: Clodsire is a really solid glue, both Unaware and Water Absorb variants. Recently experimented with Chilling Water, and the guaranteed Attack drop can help grab momentum against some switch-ins. I’ve actually used Chilling Water on a few different Pokemon, such as Slowbro, and the power drop from Surf is noticeable, but the attack drop opens up more counterplay options. :Breloom: Breloom has seen a welcome return. Two great abilities, Spore, and some strong priority make it a great fit into a bunch of teams. Nice to have three new hazard clearers in :Great Tusk: Great Tusk, :Iron Treads: Iron Treads, and :Glimmora: Glimmora. Glimmora especially can compress a lot of roles with Toxic Debris, Mortal Spin and access to other hazards.
 
I remember Dugtrio being suspected but ultimately not banned by a slim margin. I do recall people using Trapinch on the suspect ladder, but I don’t seem to remember it being very successful.
So at the time I remember DMing a council member asking for clarification on why Arena Trap was banned and not Dugtrio. Some people back then anecdotally also talked of Trapinch and Diglett being broken, but we never had a metagame with them present and no Dugtrio so it’s hard to say for sure. I personally never played more than one or two battles against them.

Anyway, the council member told me 1) Dugtrio was just tested (and narrowly avoided being banned as you said) so testing it again was a bad look and thus something else needed to be tested, 2) It wasn’t worth taking extra steps to avoid the collateral of banning Trapinch and Diglett, and 3) People find Arena Trap inherently not fun and don’t like it anyway even if it was shown to be not broken on Trapinch and/or Diglett.

So yeah I find it hard to believe too that Arena Trap would be broken on Trapinch, but that’s why it was initially banned. As for this metagame, there’s obviously a lot of other things to focus on right now and I doubt Arena Trap Trapinch will ever grace OU again.
 
Some initial thoughts:

:Ting-Lu: Ting-Lu is a very useful mon. Monstrous HP, enough attack to be threatening even without investment, and good enough coverage to get the job done. I’ve experimented with Ting-Lu as a hazard setter, AV , and a set with Taunt + Sand Tomb + Ruination and while it hasn’t all been great, it has a lot of tools in its arsenal to fit into different builds.
Love seeing Fat Tingy get praise. I finally broke 1400 this gen with this random-ass fat team featuring him. Anyone have solid partner recs for Ting? Scream has been a nice Wishpasser to aid its lack of recovery, so curious how else y'all are building around him.
 
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Love seeing Fat Tingy get praise. I finally broke 1400 this gen with this random-ass fat team featuring him. Anyone have solid partner recs for Ting? Scream has been a nice Wishpasser to aid it's lack of recovery, so curious how else y'all are building around him.
Most of the solid Ghost types in this meta make pretty good partners since they appreciate Ting-Lu's ability to switch into opposing Ghost and Dark types. Gholdengo in particular blocks fog and spin in order to keep hazards up so it's an invaluable partner. Hard hitters like Bundle, Valiant, etc. can use its spikes to secure a lot of 2HKOs. Poison resists almost everything it's weak to, so there's a lot of defensive synergy with poison types like Pex. In my head Iron Moth seems like maybe a cool partner.
 
Been loving Choice Band Meowscarada. Flower Trick is such a nice move to have with so many Grimmsnarl, Bulk Up users, and Garganacl running around. Might not be OU caliber, but it's been very solid for me.
 
Some more thoughts on the early meta.

CC8A95AF-AF46-4EB9-B512-DD80F7D6490A.jpeg

SpD Dtail Chomp goes hard in this meta. Sets up spikes, phazes to inflict more spikes damage or to halt the sweeps of many setup sweepers in the tier. Rough Skin is great for punishment the merit of physical attackers and spin in the tier. One of the best spikers rn due to its speed, bulk, and dmg output while punishing most other spike setters. Checks Chi-Yu, Gholdengo, and Iron Moth. Once Bundle leaves this is gonna go crazy.

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Being one of the few defoggers left in SV, Talonflame is underrated. Knock distribution is lower than before, its the only defogger than can win a 1v1 with Gholdengo. Flame Body + its typing lets it punish the vast roster of physical attackers such as Breloom, Scizor, Valiant, Chien-Pao, etc. it can also Tera Water or Grass to punish Palafin. It can also run a Taunt + Roost set to shutdown fat mons like Clodsire. Definitely could find a niche as the meta settles down.

77A845AF-8A97-4352-BB8D-51F5D6298539.jpeg

Big Dnite. Band Tera Normal E-Speed is one of the most ludicrous things I’ve ever seen. Arceus has 120 atk, Dnite has 134 atk + multiscale. By far one of the best breakers and rkillers in the tier. Its bulk lets it live almost any hit and has the coverage to hit resists like Garganacl and Corviknight. Roost is a funny option to stay longer in the game. Very good rn in this aggressive metagame.

AEE5E4DA-5959-4A31-B390-6B74CEFD4419.jpeg

Another underrated mon I’ve been looking at. Alot of people were disappointed about it not having a sky high atk stat despite having the hat of discipline. However it has decent bulk, especially on the special side. 94 speed is fast asf for its role, getting the jump on Gholdengo, Great Tusk, and the snail. Rocks, Knock Off, T-Wave, Swords Dance, and a base 160 steel type move. Fairy/Steel is a broken typing, and unlike Mawile it has the HP and stats to back it up. It can work as a check to Chien-Pao, Dnite, and Pult. Or it can be a bulky SD breaker with its strong ass Gigaton Hammer and STAB combination, even with mediocre atk stats. The amount of resistances it has, plus its utility makes it a potentially viable pick.

The only thing I have left to say is this,

Ban Tera. Forces too many mindgames and it leads to us getting shit like Band E-Speed Dnite or whatever Tera Type Roaring Moon decides to run.
 

G-Luke

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I'm sure someone will ask so I might as well ask it anyways: at what point would the council ban Rage First instead of Annihilape? Primeape gets the move too and while it hasn't gotten any attention, Rage Fist is the core of everything Annihilape does in the tier. Or is Annihilape's bulk and Ghost typing enough to just ban the Pokemon and not the move?

Kinda like the Houndstone situation with the future datamines, except we have a second user of the move already.
This is an awful argument, simply due to the very real fact that Primeape is a garbage Pokémon and Rage Fist will not make it good.
 
I wouldn't even want to call Tinkaton's bulk a "good" bulk, tbh

This is an awful argument, simply due to the very real fact that Primeape is a garbage Pokémon and Rage Fist will not make it good.
It's a matter of staying consistant with the policies, I don't see why it's an "awful" argument. The move is clearly why people ever consider using Ape in the first place. This goes back to the Last Respect discussion that I don't really want to start as it is not worth discussing anymore, but you get the point.
 
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Has anyone found any success with Toedscruel? I've been experimenting with hazard control in all areas so I can build up my thoughts on Gholdengo, and I've come across Toedscruel who just seems so interesting. The problem is partly how mediocre his stats are, but mostly the massive case of 4MSS. I mean the movepool is crazy good. Earthquake, Earth Power, Energy Ball, Giga Drain, Knock Off, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Sludge Bomb, Toxic, Spore, Foul Play, Rapid Spin, and Taunt. I mean the options are insane, but it just can't be fit into one set.

The fact that its ability allows it to Spore Garganacl and Gholdengo is pretty cool and i think the main reason I want to see Toedscruel work.

Edit: Forget to add Leech Seed
I have tried Toadscruel along with two wish supporters (Sylveon, Fire Tera Vaporeon) and found the exact same thing. Absolutely dumb 4MSS to the point of dehabilitating any possible sets. Mycelium Might is crazy good vs Gholdengo (you can just spore it lmao) but everywhere else its kinda bad because you're negative priority.

The damning factor is the bulk. Grass Ground is a truly relentlessly bad typing and it has worse bulk than Torterra. IMO there's 0 way to make this mon good, especially because for all that utility (taunt especially) its NEGATIVE PRIORITY. You can run 3 attack spore which ended up being okay but even then you need rapid spin, you want knock off, you want dual stabs. Maybe drop spore altogether but now you can't do anything to corv.

Rough deal. Doubt it'll find a spot anywhere near OU.
 
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