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As for AV Slither Wing, I really think if you're using Slither Wing in a defensive role you should run HDB with Will-O-Wisp + Morning Sun, because physically defensive Slither Wing can actually function as a good counter to the Donphans and can shut down some other physical threats like Roaring Moon. I don't see what AV Slither Wing accomplishes besides being able to switch into Iron Bundle a grand total of one time (assuming hazards aren't up, because it can't even do that if they're up). It has no recovery, not much bulk, and can't exactly function as a special wall against stuff like Specs Iron Valiant or Psyshock Gholdengo. AV Iron Hands seems to fulfil the same role but better in just about every way. But hey, if you're finding it useful then don't let me stop you
i have used defensive pivot slither with fimp/uturn/cc/morning sun and it actually works rather well. fimp imo is just too useful to drop as one of the strongest priority options rn, and uturn let you pivot out of annoying mons. fighting stab is still important for slither imo to pressure mons like corv and treads and just to make sure youre not as easily taken advantage of. i can see dropping uturn for wisp tho, the pokemon you would normally uturn out of dont like wisp anyway. priority fimp+slow uturn is quite a combo. run blitz if youre scared of gholdengo.
Iron Valiant @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Expert Belt
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Moonblast
- Close Combat
- Thunderbolt / Psyshock
- Knock Off / Psyshock
i know i talked a loooot about iron valiant the last time around but i just want to post this set here that ive been using to good success. mixed valiant is so damn good it takes advantage of so many common mons like tusk, treads, hands, ting, etc etc etc and is just very good at dealing damage and breaking holes in defensive cores. tbolt and knock are my preferred last moves to hit corv and hit unterad skeledirge/spread progress respectively, but psyshock is also good if you have issues with clodsire or amoonguss. i run boots on mine to combat hazard stack teams which tend to be slower (those that are not glimmora hos, that is) and valiant really likes the ability to shoot off more attacks against them. ebelt is good for more damages though. fairy tera because moonblast is an amazing move
you dont even kill annihilape with ebelt less moonblast even after tera like wtf why is monkey so obnoxious its demanding you to put a mon that ohkoes it on every team.
edit: credits to SetsuSetsuna in the ou channel for this one
it just fucking kills everything lmao you will believe tera specs moonblast's power when it does 40+ to your defensive corviknight. moonblast is a broken move fairy is a broken type blah blah blah. (of course i maintain cc/knock/trick are viable options on this set focus miss is ass)
also, i thought about chi-yu's ability, beads of ruin. it lowers your opponent's sdef by 25%. think about it. its not exactly a boost to your own special attacks (though usually in practice that might as well be the case). this means beads of ruin should also boost future sight's damage output. im not exactly sure what this implicates, but at the very least the combo can completely dismantle clodsires trying to sponge chi-yu. or you can even pivot to chi the turn sight is supposed to hit for that bit of extra damage. though i doubt chi itself will need it very much, because its power is already through the roof. anyome have thoughts about this?
Bundle has three viable sets it can run rn (Specs, HDB, Booster Energy + Agility) all of which have different answers. Not only that, but bundle would still be unbalanced even without multiple sets bc the core of the issue remains the same in any case. What makes it broken is the fact that any answer gets pivoted on for free and immediately pressured by whatever it brings in, and the unresisted stab combo lets it chip down its checks over the course of a game on its own if it needs to. After your means of revenge killing it are gone, you’ve literally just lost outright.
RE: Gholdengo, I get that it has a utility to block all forms of hazard removal unseen since Gen 5, and that its set versatility makes it hard to directly counter, but I'm pretty amused by the idea that people are claiming "OU only has 2 defoggers" or whatever. Like, OU is everything that's available right now, and each meta evolves to handle its top threats. People are acting like a former "low tier trash mon" can't suddenly find new life with a new niche, like never existed (Slowking was NU in USUM and ended SwSh A- in OU).
Which brings me to Talonflame, who ended SwSh in, oh, look at that, NU. I haven't tried it yet, but I'm seeing people just reject the idea out of hand because...it's not Corv? Except, Corv didn't rise to prominence in a tier featuring Gholdengo, and while Talonflame didn't get new toys the ways Slowking did between generations, a lot of other `mons had their toys taken away, which is kinda the same thing. Finally, while people seem perplexed/abashed by the very idea of Talonflame as a defensive `mon, that's *exactly* the role it played in SwSh NU (though it usually didn't run Defog there by the end).
Sure, it's harder to justify in a Palafin/Iron Bundle meta, but assuming those two get the boot, TFlame actually doesn't look terrible as a Gholdengo MU:
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 38 SpD Talonflame: 172-204 (47.9 - 56.8%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO
52 SpA Talonflame Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 254-300 (80.6 - 95.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
Gholdengo is basically forced to terra to pure ghost to keep up with TFlame over the course of a match, or else hazards are coming down -- you are allowed to double up with Rapid Spin support (Great Tusk loves the speed boost, anyway) as backup in case Gholdengo goes to something other than pure Ghost. And, as long as Tera is around, that helps limit your opponent's choices on what to do with it, which is also a plus.
TFlame also happens to have not terrible matchups against the other main hazard removers (Great Tusk, Iron Treads, Corv), letting it challenge your opponent's hazard removal as well as its hazard protection.
Again, this is pure theorymonning (will test over the weekend), but the whole point of early meta is to make theories and try them out, and if Palafin and Bundle do get the boot, it seems like you can do a whole lot worse than: @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Level: 100
Timid Nature
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 52 SpA / 208 Spe
- Defog
- Roost
- Overheat
- U-turn
Cold take: Annihilape is incredibly good and is about to get even better. This thing fucking dismantles stall and balance, and with Palafin and Iron Bundle almost certainly booted this weekend, stall and balance are about to be a lot more common. Rage Fist stocks going up, so get ready to buy! and of course remember to do what everyone else myself included did and steal blunders team
Edit: forgot to add this, I don't see it being broken, just very good. Fast ghost/dark types and Garganacl can stop it pretty dead in its tracks, so it needs a bit of support.
Again, this is pure theorymonning (will test over the weekend), but the whole point of early meta is to make theories and try them out, and if Palafin and Bundle do get the boot, it seems like you can do a whole lot worse than: @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Level: 100
Timid Nature
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 52 SpA / 208 Spe
- Defog
- Roost
- Overheat
- U-turn
Disclaimer: I'm not a great player, I do it for fun, I'm not super competitive.
I had just made this team to see how hazards plus gholdengo felt, and this was my second game. It kinda felt ridiculous to see the first three turns. Is this common in regular competitive play? I do not want the meta to be totally like this, it wasn't very fun.
Thought I'd contribute this before (or during since this took so long to research?) the Great Terastal Talk:
How to Check a Mon That Can Tera Into Any Type With One Other Mon
I'm honestly of the belief that the Terastal type-assigning meta is already deceptively solved. Just because you can make your mon any of the 18 different monotypes doesn't mean you should. Bug's pretty lame when you don't already get STAB (and preferably First Impression) on it, for example.
Given worries that Roaring Moon and Dragapult (and very possibly more) are overpowered due to Terastal, let's see how well those worries stand up!
We'll try seeing how hard it is to check an example mon that I don't think anyone thinks is broken in OU that can Tera into any type it wants: Iron Treads. For simplicity's sake, we'll assume that no weather and no terrain will be set in all test sets.
Since you may have busted your Tera on another mon already, we'll currently assume that Iron Treads can Tera but you cannot.
Now, typically, Great Tusk should be able to check Iron Treads (note that Corviknight already has big trouble checking the Adamant Choice Band Wild Charge set and Ting-Lu has big trouble checking Iron Treads's Body Press):
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 144-171 (33.1 - 39.4%) -- 13.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 192-226 (44.2 - 52%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Treads Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 156-184 (35.9 - 42.3%) -- 91.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Iron Treads Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 104-124 (23.9 - 28.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Treads Ice Spinner vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 104-124 (23.9 - 28.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Def Choice Band Iron Treads Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 81-96 (18.6 - 22.1%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Close Combat vs. +6 252 HP / 252+ Def Iron Treads: 104-126 (27 - 32.8%) -- 60.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Earthquake vs. +4 252 HP / 252+ Def Iron Treads: 116-138 (30.2 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Choice Band Iron Treads Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 114-136 (26.2 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
4 Atk Choice Band Iron Treads Ice Spinner vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 78-92 (17.9 - 21.1%) -- possible 5HKO
+2 252+ Def Iron Treads Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 107-127 (24.6 - 29.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Def Iron Treads Body Press vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 73-86 (16.8 - 19.8%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
+4 252+ Def Iron Treads Body Press vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 81-96 (18.6 - 22.1%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Def Iron Treads Body Press vs. +3 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 86-102 (19.8 - 23.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Def Iron Treads Body Press vs. +4 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 72-85 (16.5 - 19.5%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Def Iron Treads Body Press vs. +5 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 62-73 (14.2 - 16.8%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Def Iron Treads Body Press vs. +6 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 54-64 (12.4 - 14.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
4 Atk Iron Treads Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 23-27 (5.2 - 6.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Iron Treads: 206-246 (53.6 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Def Great Tusk Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Iron Treads: 186-218 (48.4 - 56.7%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Def Great Tusk Body Press vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Iron Treads: 92-110 (23.9 - 28.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Great Tusk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Iron Treads: 56-67 (14.5 - 17.4%) -- possible 6HKO
0 Atk Great Tusk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Iron Treads: 75-89 (19.5 - 23.1%) -- possible 5HKO
0 Atk Great Tusk Rapid Spin vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Iron Treads: 19-23 (4.9 - 5.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Just let Iron Treads go Tera Ground and *welp* looks like Great Tusk needs to use Ice Spinner and an offensive boost (be it Choice Band or Bulk Up) in order to be a solid check:
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 192-228 (44.2 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 256-302 (58.9 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tera Ground Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 130-154 (29.9 - 35.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Iron Treads Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 130-154 (29.9 - 35.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Iron Treads Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 170-202 (39.1 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Tera Ground Iron Treads Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 88-104 (20.2 - 23.9%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 176-208 (40.5 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Iron Treads Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 118-140 (27.1 - 32.2%) -- 48.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 188-222 (43.3 - 51.1%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 142-168 (32.7 - 38.7%) -- 4.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Iron Treads Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 96-114 (22.1 - 26.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Def Great Tusk Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ground Iron Treads: 124-147 (38.6 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Def Great Tusk Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ground Iron Treads: 186-219 (57.9 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Def Great Tusk Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Ground Iron Treads: 93-109 (24.2 - 28.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Def Great Tusk Body Press vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Ground Iron Treads: 46-55 (11.9 - 14.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ground Iron Treads: 279-328 (86.9 - 102.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tera Ground Iron Treads: 277-327 (72.1 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Ground Iron Treads: 368-436 (95.8 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Great Tusk Rapid Spin vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Ground Iron Treads: 51-60 (13.2 - 15.6%) -- possible 7HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Ground Iron Treads: 322-380 (83.8 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 Atk Great Tusk Rapid Spin vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tera Ground Iron Treads: 58-69 (15.1 - 17.9%) -- possible 6HKO
+1 0 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tera Ground Iron Treads: 372-440 (96.8 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+1 0 Atk Great Tusk Rapid Spin vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Ground Iron Treads: 44-52 (11.4 - 13.5%) -- possible 8HKO
+1 0 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Ground Iron Treads: 276-328 (71.8 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tera Ground Iron Treads: 208-246 (54.1 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
One of the nightmare defensive Teras against Great Tusk is Flying...we're dang lucky that Ice Spinner smashes that as hard as it smashes Tera Ground. Let's see how well Tera Flying Iron Treads can OHKO Great Tusk:
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Flying Iron Treads Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 306-362 (70.5 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Flying Iron Treads Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 234-276 (53.9 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Flying Iron Treads Tera Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 156-186 (35.9 - 42.8%) -- 93.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Flying Iron Treads Tera Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 156-186 (35.9 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Choice Band Tera Flying Iron Treads Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 170-204 (39.1 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Choice Band Tera Flying Iron Treads Tera Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 116-138 (26.7 - 31.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Hot dang, that was close. Defensive Bulk Up Ice Spinner Great Tusk pulls it out again! And so does Adamant Choice Band Great Tusk!
Another strong defensive Tera against Great Tusk is ironically Bug; guess we've got to check that, too:
252 Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Bug Iron Treads: 420-496 (109.3 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Great Tusk Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Bug Iron Treads: 364-432 (94.7 - 112.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+1 0 Atk Great Tusk Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Bug Iron Treads: 344-408 (89.5 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+1 0 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Bug Iron Treads: 69-82 (17.9 - 21.3%) -- possible 5HKO
Oh man, I'm gonna hate getting the Ice Spinner vs. Stone Edge gamble right, especially since the Defensive Bulk Up Great Tusk set needs Rapid Spin for the crucial speed boost and chip damage. At least Adamant Choice Band Great Tusk can spare the moveslots.
So it looks like a good general defensive Tera for Iron Treads is Water; now we have to check that:
252+ Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Iron Treads: 172-204 (44.7 - 53.1%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Iron Treads: 207-244 (53.9 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Earthquake vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Iron Treads: 87-103 (22.6 - 26.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Iron Treads: 179-212 (46.6 - 55.2%) -- 68% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Iron Treads: 269-317 (70 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tera Water Iron Treads: 360-425 (93.7 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
4 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Iron Treads: 87-103 (22.6 - 26.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 4 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Iron Treads: 130-154 (33.8 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 4 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Iron Treads: 156-184 (40.6 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 0 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Iron Treads: 174-205 (45.3 - 53.3%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO
+1 0 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Iron Treads: 208-246 (54.1 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 4 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. +6 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Iron Treads: 55-66 (14.3 - 17.1%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 4 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. +6 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Iron Treads: 66-78 (17.1 - 20.3%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 252+ Def Great Tusk Body Press vs. +6 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Iron Treads: 58-69 (15.1 - 17.9%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 4 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. +6 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Iron Treads: 87-103 (22.6 - 26.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 4 Atk Great Tusk Rapid Spin vs. +6 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Iron Treads: 19-23 (4.9 - 5.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever
So the Defensive Bulk Up Great Tusk set still manages to 1-vs-1 Tera Water Iron Treads! ...Except possibly the Iron Defense ones. Adamant Choice Band Iron Tusk looks like it's unable to KO Tera Water Tera Blast Iron Treads in time, though.
Perhaps the true nightmare might be Iron Defense Body Press Tera Fighting Iron Treads; let's check that one:
+2 252+ Def Tera Fighting Iron Treads Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 160-190 (36.8 - 43.7%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Def Tera Fighting Iron Treads Body Press vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 214-253 (49.3 - 58.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Def Tera Fighting Iron Treads Body Press vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 109-129 (25.1 - 29.7%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+4 252+ Def Tera Fighting Iron Treads Body Press vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 321-378 (73.9 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+4 252+ Def Tera Fighting Iron Treads Body Press vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 121-144 (27.8 - 33.1%) -- 86.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Def Tera Fighting Iron Treads Body Press vs. +3 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 129-153 (29.7 - 35.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Def Black Belt Tera Fighting Iron Treads Body Press vs. +3 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 154-183 (35.4 - 42.1%) -- 87.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Play Rough vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fighting Iron Treads: 208-248 (54.1 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Play Rough vs. +4 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fighting Iron Treads: 140-168 (36.4 - 43.7%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Close Combat vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fighting Iron Treads: 103-123 (26.8 - 32%) -- 35.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 4 Atk Great Tusk Play Rough vs. +6 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fighting Iron Treads: 132-156 (34.3 - 40.6%) -- 42.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Great Tusk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fighting Iron Treads: 14-16 (3.6 - 4.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever
This Iron Treads set might be beatable for Defensive Bulk Up Great Tusk, but it seems pretty sequencing-dependent. At any rate, you'll be leaning on Play Rough like mad...and hey neat, Adamant Choice Band Great Tusk pulls it out yet again with Play Rough!
These days, Choice Band Ground attack/Fighting attack/Ice Spinner/Stone Edge/Play Rough looks pretty silly against Air Balloon Gholdengo, making that set get forced out at least once.
Overall, non-Tera Great Tusk is forced into 50/50s in the teambuilder dealing with all possible Tera Iron Treads sets - and winning enough of those 50/50s with one set can leave it open to other prominent meta threats.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sweet sheesh, that was a Great Wall of Calcs - once more unto the breach, let's analyze Tera Iron Treads vs. Dondozo!
Dondozo typically should be able to check Iron Treads:
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 159-187 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Treads Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 192-226 (38 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (12.5 - 14.7% recoil damage)
4 Atk Choice Band Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 117-138 (23.2 - 27.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Choice Band Iron Treads Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 140-166 (27.7 - 32.9%) -- 80.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery (9.1 - 10.8% recoil damage)
0 Atk Dondozo Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 158-188 (49.2 - 58.5%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Dondozo Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Iron Treads: 156-186 (40.6 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Dondozo Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Iron Treads: 116-140 (30.2 - 36.4%) -- 57% chance to 3HKO
Dondozo no longer checks Tera Electric Iron Treads(!!!):
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Electric Iron Treads Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 288-338 (57.1 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (22.4 - 26.3% recoil damage)
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Electric Iron Treads Wild Charge vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 192-228 (38 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (14.9 - 17.7% recoil damage)
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Electric Iron Treads Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 254-302 (50.3 - 59.9%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Electric Iron Treads Tera Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 170-204 (33.7 - 40.4%) -- 37.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Dondozo Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Electric Iron Treads: 124-148 (38.6 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Let's see how well Dondozo can check Choice Band Tera Grass Tera Blast Iron Treads:
4 Atk Dondozo Avalanche (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Grass Iron Treads: 148-176 (46.1 - 54.8%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO
Overall, Tera Electric Iron Treads can even break through non-Tera Dondozo! I suppose Yawn Dondozo can at least make Iron Treads fall asleep, though...?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Let's go for a sillier example - the Iron Bundle match-up!
Iron Bundle typically smokes Iron Treads to kingdom come:
252+ Atk Iron Treads Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle: 192-228 (75.8 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Def Iron Treads Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle: 162-192 (64 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Treads: 464-548 (144.5 - 170.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Iron Treads: 210-248 (65.2 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Iron Treads: 210-248 (54.6 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Iron Treads: 314-372 (81.7 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
But Tera Rock Iron Treads smashes every Iron Bundle but Scarf ones!
252+ Atk Tera Rock Iron Treads Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle: 288-342 (113.3 - 134.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Treads: 464-548 (144.5 - 170.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Treads: 510-600 (158.8 - 186.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Tera Electric Iron Treads doesn't do too badly, either - it just probably KOs itself against Scarf Iron Bundle in the process:
252+ Atk Tera Electric Iron Treads Wild Charge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle: 260-308 (102.3 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (19.7 - 19.7% recoil damage)
252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Electric Iron Treads: 232-274 (72.2 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Electric Iron Treads: 255-300 (79.4 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Heck, even Tera Fighting Iron Treads doesn't do too badly, either - it can even scout for Scarf Iron Bundle without getting immediately KOd, and it still has a reasonable chance of KOing Scarf Iron Bundle on the spot:
252+ Def Tera Fighting Iron Treads Body Press vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle: 242-288 (95.2 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Fighting Iron Treads Tera Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle: 234-276 (92.1 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Fighting Iron Treads: 232-274 (72.2 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Fighting Iron Treads: 255-300 (79.4 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Overall, even non-Tera Iron Bundle can no longer check the right Tera Iron Treads set!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
At this rate, I've got a feeling that pretty much any seemingly non-broken mon can break through a whole bunch of its checks with the right Tera types and the right sets.
Here comes the fun part: in real games, you can Tera your prospective check, too! Calculations for every Tera against every other Tera get nuts Camomons-style. Of course, run walls of calcs like these and you can figure out when you're forced to Tera (especially in mid- to late-game) or you're forced out when they reveal their Tera (especially in the early-game).
And if you play sloppily enough and lose a mon or three, your opponent can figure out which of their remaining mons is mathematically the best to Tera with - even if it's none of them at all.
EDIT: Mucked up the Dondozo calcs - turns out that Dondozo fares even worse against Tera Iron Treads than I previously put down.
bundle is not overly broken like palafin. We should keep it so players can stop spamming skilless balance and stall. Just wear bundle down with rocks or offensive pressure/priority. Its not that bad
Just joined to give my 2 cents. Returned to play having not played since early BW OU and honestly, all this crying about hazards and Gholdengo seems way over the top to me. Hazards are no worse really imo than they are in earlier gens and we coped just fine back in the day, the only thing that perhaps makes it a little bit worse is Glimmora's ability.
As for stuff that's clearly broken, shed tail is just not fun. Why shed tail wasn't instantly banned alongside baton pass is beyond, it's almost always gg if somebody manages to pass to a sweeper, the scariest being Dragonite.
Tera offers too much utility to sweepers
Palafin feels more broken than Iron Bundle to me, fighting types are common enough to hit Bundle on the ice side and Bundle misses the pump a lot.
bundle is not overly broken like palafin. We should keep it so players can stop spamming skilless balance and stall. Just wear bundle down with rocks or offensive pressure/priority. Its not that bad
bundle is not overly broken like palafin. We should keep it so players can stop spamming skilless balance and stall. Just wear bundle down with rocks or offensive pressure/priority. Its not that bad
You still haven’t named a single check to Bundle, so let me go ahead and name the one thing that answers it: Blissey. And what archetype is the only one that fits Blissey right now? Stall.
A pokemon that has premium speed, enough physical bulk to withstand most priority, and near perfect coverage is a nightmare for offense. It incentivizes stall.
We do not keep blatantly broken Pokemon in the tier, but we especially don’t for the sake of fitting entirely incorrect notions about archetypical viability.
Finally, HDB Bundle is the best set, so good luck with that chip plan.
People are sleeping on gallade this generation, I've only seen like two so far. maybe it's that I'm on the low ladder, maybe it's because it's a new gen and everyone is focused on new mons and not old mon buffs, or maybe it's because it's overshadowed by it's paradox counterpart, Iron Valiant.
But either way, it's not getting enough attention.
I love this set because of how it takes advantage of this offensive metagame. It's so ridiculously strong that most offensive non resists straight-up drop from a neutral sacred sword, and not much resists it that aren't neutral to psycho cut and aren't weak to night slash. There's a bit of versatility here depending on what you want. Adamant is better most of the time, since you'd be hitting 518 speed and outspeeding the base 100 scarfers like chi-yu. But Jolly may be used to outspeed other faster scarfers. I believe that night slash is better 99% of the time, as I can only think of quagsire as a reason to use leaf blade, and X-scissor to hit Toedstool. I huge help for this guy is shed tail support from cyclizar. The main issue with this set imo is priority. But after palafin's ban sometime soon this set will become much better.
I love this set because of its raw power. Nothing switches in on all of these moves, which is hilarious to me, so basically you've just gotta predict right, and sometimes it's not even a matter of predicting as sacred sword hits resists stupendously hard. Spikes support is great for this set, as it helps if you miss predict on a bulky mon. I prefer jolly on this set as it has a hard time switching in and needs to be able to outspeed what it switches in on. Trick is great for crippling walls to help open up teammates, and shadow sneak helps revenge sweepers like dd pult. To help it switching in, I like corv with u-turn, but it's high spdef makes up for it's lackluster hp stat, so it's not too much of a problem bringing it in.
People are sleeping on gallade this generation, I've only seen like two so far. maybe it's that I'm on the low ladder, maybe it's because it's a new gen and everyone is focused on new mons and not old mon buffs, or maybe it's because it's overshadowed by it's paradox counterpart, Iron Valiant.
But either way, it's not getting enough attention.
I love this set because of how it takes advantage of this offensive metagame. It's so ridiculously strong that most offensive non resists straight-up drop from a neutral sacred sword, and not much resists it that aren't neutral to psycho cut and aren't weak to night slash. There's a bit of versatility here depending on what you want. Adamant is better most of the time, since you'd be hitting 518 speed and outspeeding the base 100 scarfers like chi-yu. But Jolly may be used to outspeed other faster scarfers. I believe that night slash is better 99% of the time, as I can only think of quagsire as a reason to use leaf blade, and X-scissor to hit Toedstool. I huge help for this guy is shed tail support from cyclizar. The main issue with this set imo is priority. But after palafin's ban sometime soon this set will become much better.
I love this set because of its raw power. Nothing switches in on all of these moves, which is hilarious to me, so basically you've just gotta predict right, and sometimes it's not even a matter of predicting as sacred sword hits resists stupendously hard. Spikes support is great for this set, as it helps if you miss predict on a bulky mon. I prefer jolly on this set as it has a hard time switching in and needs to be able to outspeed what it switches in on. Trick is great for crippling walls to help open up teammates, and shadow sneak helps revenge sweepers like dd pult. To help it switching in, I like corv with u-turn, but it's high spdef makes up for it's lackluster hp stat, so it's not too much of a problem bringing it in.
I've been thinking about it but its speed tier seem to crippling with stuff like Gholdengo and all of that around, it's a nice breaker but the meta would have to settle down when people start using more balance because it's easy to KO and not fast enough to warrant a slot
People are sleeping on gallade this generation, I've only seen like two so far. maybe it's that I'm on the low ladder, maybe it's because it's a new gen and everyone is focused on new mons and not old mon buffs, or maybe it's because it's overshadowed by it's paradox counterpart, Iron Valiant.
But either way, it's not getting enough attention.
I love this set because of how it takes advantage of this offensive metagame. It's so ridiculously strong that most offensive non resists straight-up drop from a neutral sacred sword, and not much resists it that aren't neutral to psycho cut and aren't weak to night slash. There's a bit of versatility here depending on what you want. Adamant is better most of the time, since you'd be hitting 518 speed and outspeeding the base 100 scarfers like chi-yu. But Jolly may be used to outspeed other faster scarfers. I believe that night slash is better 99% of the time, as I can only think of quagsire as a reason to use leaf blade, and X-scissor to hit Toedstool. I huge help for this guy is shed tail support from cyclizar. The main issue with this set imo is priority. But after palafin's ban sometime soon this set will become much better.
I love this set because of its raw power. Nothing switches in on all of these moves, which is hilarious to me, so basically you've just gotta predict right, and sometimes it's not even a matter of predicting as sacred sword hits resists stupendously hard. Spikes support is great for this set, as it helps if you miss predict on a bulky mon. I prefer jolly on this set as it has a hard time switching in and needs to be able to outspeed what it switches in on. Trick is great for crippling walls to help open up teammates, and shadow sneak helps revenge sweepers like dd pult. To help it switching in, I like corv with u-turn, but it's high spdef makes up for it's lackluster hp stat, so it's not too much of a problem bringing it in.
So I wasn't crazy thinking nobody else was using Gallade on the ladder, and I wasn't crazy in thinking it was a BEAST too! I made it to top 100 with Gallade a couple days ago and absolutely destroyed a stall team that was very high (like top 25 or something I think) with Gallade picking up 4 kills. Its power against fat and slower balance is insane and you are the first besides a post I made earlier that has mentioned it, as far as I've seen. You're running the exact set I've been running (banded no Trick) and I've literally OHKO'd Corvs with terra fighting Sacred Sword. Such a fun mon and I'm glad to have someone aboard the Gallade hype train with me.
I've been thinking about it but its speed tier seem to crippling with stuff like Gholdengo and all of that around, it's a nice breaker but the meta would have to settle down when people start using more balance because it's easy to KO and not fast enough to warrant a slot
Yeah, the speed is horrendous but it's easy enough to bring it in with shed tail and/or after a faint. But most people don't expect the agility so if you bring it in on something like clodsire or an offensive mon and then click agility.
So I wasn't crazy thinking nobody else was using Gallade on the ladder, and I wasn't crazy in thinking it was a BEAST too! I made it to top 100 with Gallade a couple days ago and absolutely destroyed a stall team that was very high (like top 25 or something I think) with Gallade picking up 4 kills. Its power against fat and slower balance is insane and you are the first besides a post I made earlier that has mentioned it, as far as I've seen. You're running the exact set I've been running (no Trick) and I've literally OHKO'd Corvs with terra fighting Sacred Sword. Such a fun mon and I'm glad to have someone aboard the Gallade hype train with me.
So I wasn't crazy thinking nobody else was using Gallade on the ladder, and I wasn't crazy in thinking it was a BEAST too! I made it to top 100 with Gallade a couple days ago and absolutely destroyed a stall team that was very high (like top 25 or something I think) with Gallade picking up 4 kills. Its power against fat and slower balance is insane and you are the first besides a post I made earlier that has mentioned it, as far as I've seen. You're running the exact set I've been running (no Trick) and I've literally OHKO'd Corvs with terra fighting Sacred Sword. Such a fun mon and I'm glad to have someone aboard the Gallade hype train with me.
Yeah, the speed is horrendous but it's easy enough to bring it in with shed tail and/or after a faint. But most people don't expect the agility so if you bring it in on something like clodsire or an offensive mon and then click agility.
I think by that point that Shed Tail may leave in the near future because of the egregious dynamic it brings to the tier, slow pivoting seems fine otherwise but i feel like it can be threatened too easily beside if as you said, you use agility
252+ Atk Choice Band Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 76 Def Scream Tail: 73-86 (16.8 - 19.8%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Sharpness Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 76 Def Scream Tail: 128-151 (29.4 - 34.7%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Gallade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 76 Def Scream Tail: 132-156 (30.4 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Sharpness Gallade Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 76 Def Scream Tail: 171-202 (39.4 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0+ SpA Scream Tail Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gallade: 116-140 (41.8 - 50.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
Lowkey want to draw attention to this set (fat). Modest for some extra chip, timid to outspeed Garchomp . Thing is really bulky with minimal investment. Really good wishpasser. This is just mega clefable, if mega clefable had Garchomp syndrome where its mega was just underwhelming and not worth using over the original.
252+ Atk Choice Band Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 76 Def Scream Tail: 73-86 (16.8 - 19.8%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Sharpness Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 76 Def Scream Tail: 128-151 (29.4 - 34.7%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Gallade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 76 Def Scream Tail: 132-156 (30.4 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0+ SpA Scream Tail Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gallade: 116-140 (41.8 - 50.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
Lowkey want to draw attention to this set (fat). Thing is really bulky with minimal investment. Really good wishpasser. This is just mega clefable, if mega clefable had Garchomp syndrome where its mega was just underwhelming and not worth using over the original.
never existed (Slowking was NU in USUM and ended SwSh A- in OU).
@ Heavy-Duty Boots
. Thing is really bulky with minimal investment. Really good wishpasser. This is just mega clefable, if mega clefable had Garchomp syndrome where its mega was just underwhelming and not worth using over the original.