Suspect: Murkrow

[spuds4ever]

Yeah, this makes a little bit more sense to me. I agree with almost all of this argument; however, I have to ask, why is Murkrow consistently lower than expected on the stats (currently at #5, which I believe is the highest we've ever seen it)? At first, we kinda chalked it up to Murkrow needing a lot of team support, but I'm not necessarily sure I still believe that. What do you guys think?

I think this is because LOmixkrow DOES need a lot of support. Without a scout like chou or foo, it will really struggle to get in. @prem's list, in most of your examples, you'll have one shot at brave bird before the recoil plus the SR damage kills you off, so if the opponent has a flying resist or something that can survive a BB, murkrow still hasn't payed off it's "automatic kill". Spin support is also very important if you want it to function throughout the match as a revenge-killer. Also, while subroostkrow is good, it's not that difficult to deal with for most teams. Murkrow really can't do everything on its own. It's really good on paper and if you can give it that support, but I think we are over-looking that murkrow really does need that support to do its job.

 

[Nanoswine]

Subroost Krow and Scarfkrow don't need the team support that Mixkrow does in order to be effective. On my main team I don't have hazards or spin support, or even something like Lileep or that can switch in on Chinchou really easily, but Murkrow still manages a kill every game unless I make a mistake, and almost always pulls off 2 or more. People really overstate how much support Krow needs, as well as how fast it kills itself.

As for it's lower than expected usage, I think that is because most players build defensively rather than offensively. Krow doesn't have much defensive merit, and in fact this may be why Eviolite Krow sees so much use.

 

[Heysup]

If you're using MixKrow as a Pokemon to build the team around and support you're using it suboptimally, it is one of the most independent Pokemon in the tier. You do not need to use a Rapid Spinner, you do not need to scout (in gen 5....really?), you do not really need anything except for a team to take advantage of the opposing team in post-murkrow destruction (ie with a few Pokemon either weakened or KOed). LO Heat Wave Murkrow just does too much damage to too many Pokemon to be adequately dealt with and that's the point


EDIT: If you see me running a team without Murkrow ever, it's only because I'm using Double Sand Rush.

 

[danilo]

Yeah MixKrow isn't something you build around. MixKrow is a team player that doesn't need team support because it almost always takes something out and severely weakens something else, giving other Pokemon on your team a chance to sweep. The other Murkrow set, SubRoost, is less of a team player and needs more support.

I don't really know why people don't use Murkrow. I don't use Murkrow but I recognize that it's a great Pokemon. Maybe it's because LC is more balanced and Pokemon that can switch into threats while dishing out more damage, like Mienfoo and Timburr, are chosen more often by players? Murkrow isn't something you can always just slap onto your team like Mienfoo or Misdreavus. Murkrow plays a very specific role on a team.

 

[Lord of the Fireflies]

@Ray Jay, my team peaked 1# on the ladder several times, and consistently won me matches against all kind of players. (under username Loco) Don't say a team is silly when you don't know it. I do have Natu and Mienfoo, as well as Scarf Snover (which is a good check to MixKrow if it can switch in on a Sucker Punch / HP Grass) and while Chinchou is good, is just has so many things to check it just finds itself too weakened (or asleep) and suddenly it can't take on Murkrow as reliably. Remember the two common spinners, Drilbur and Staryu, share a weakness with Chinchou, and that Natu is OHKOed most of the time by the most common hazard setter, Dwebble. It thus takes very good prediction skills to prevent any hazards from being set up.

 

[Elevator Music]

I've used RestTalk Chinchou probably more than anyone, and I've never once had problems with Murkrow when using it except when the opponent had Diglett as well. So I'm not really buying that it's easy to wear down or whatever. Mostly because the only way for Chinchou to get worn down if you're using it for Murkrow are 1) it's taking hits from Murkrow, and 2) entry hazards. If it's taking hits from Murkrow, that means Murkrow has to have come in, and that's not the easiest thing. Entry hazards shouldn't be a concern for the Chinchou user either because almost every good team has SR or some form of passive damage, and that means Murkrow isn't going to be able to come in any more than Chinchou can. IDK, just not buying it. Yeah it's set up bait for "all the common set up Pokemon," but in LC you have to realize that only means Scraggy, Drilbur, the rare Dratini, and defensive Pokemon setting up hazards.


I do agree with Heysup that Murkrow really doesn't require team support. You can literally just slap it on almost any team and get good results. I also agree that it's undoubtedly the strongest Pokemon in the tier. IDK, I guess I have still always found it manageable though. It's one of the only Pokemon that you really have to build in a specific way of dealing with (there are a lot of major Pokemon that you can just play around, but Murkrow is definitely not in that category), but options exist so I guess my opinion is to suck it up and use them?

I'm mostly neutral on this, though I guess I would prefer it to remain allowed.

 

[Ray Jay]

@Ray Jay, my team peaked 1# on the ladder several times, and consistently won me matches against all kind of players. (under username Loco) Don't say a team is silly when you don't know it. I do have Natu and Mienfoo, as well as Scarf Snover (which is a good check to MixKrow if it can switch in on a Sucker Punch / HP Grass) and while Chinchou is good, is just has so many things to check it just finds itself too weakened (or asleep) and suddenly it can't take on Murkrow as reliably. Remember the two common spinners, Drilbur and Staryu, share a weakness with Chinchou, and that Natu is OHKOed most of the time by the most common hazard setter, Dwebble. It thus takes very good prediction skills to prevent any hazards from being set up.

Uhm what? Please don't misquote me, I said

You don't have a missy counter? Your team is probably silly.

And I agree with em on virtually all points. Chinchou is a solid counter to Murkrow and that fact simply cannot be refuted, as demonstrated multiple times in this thread. With proper team support, you WILL have some method of clearing hazards and Chinchou WILL stick around long enough to handle Murkrow with smart playing. Furthermore, Chinchou isn't the only counter out there, and it certainly isn't so niche that if you use Chinchou you are greatly opening yourself up to other threats.

 

[Heysup]

i dont think it's fair to assume Chinchou won't be dealing with hazards a lot more than Murkrow simply because of Murkrow's ability to stop hazards. Additionally, as far as clearing hazards, Chinchou is essentially bait for that (especially restalk Chinchou) and if you ever use Rapid Spin on Murkrow you lose at pkmn. I mean yea it's 2x weak to Stealth Rock but it avoids Spikes and Toxic Spikes which are pretty common - though this is kind of beside the point. Essentially what I'm saying is: assuming equal hazards is pushing it because of Chinchou being set up / spin bait and even if hazards are equal, Spikes are common enough to weigh down Chinchou to be taking at least 25% from hazards (and possibly poison).

P.S. Using Return on Murkrow works better than you think.

 

[Lord of the Fireflies]

Furthermore, Chinchou isn't the only counter out there, and it certainly isn't so niche that if you use Chinchou you are greatly opening yourself up to other threats.

As surprising as it may seem, it is exactly why Chinchou is shaky! As I previously said, Chinchou checks so many common threats it is hard for it to stay healthy and awake for the entirety of the game without reliable recovery...

EDIT: Oh yeah and eviolite archen s pretty disappointing... Whatever it does (except countering Murkrow, of course) is done better by something else, and its defensive stats aren't exactly stellar. Also, it finds it hard to put constant pressure on the things it walls at soon as it falls below 50%. Moreover, lack of good flying STAB means it can't really counter fighting types like Scraggy and Timburr, because they can put it below 50% before Archen attacks and just run all over it. Finally, weakness to SR isnt a gift for anyone.