Sun in LC Post Tangela

[DTC]

Approved by blarajan

Now that Tangela is banned from LC, the dynamics of sun have changed a lot. While Tangela was definitely an amazing (this adjective is an understatement really) sun sweeper, many users feel sun is still very strong even without Tangela. In this thread, we will talk about how sun fares without Tangela, its core components, as well as good Pokemon to counter common Pokemon found on sun teams.

Here are the general core components of sun:

Core Component #1: Vulpix

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You obviously want Vulpix on a sun team, as it is much easier to set up sun with Drought than with Sunny Day. A common misconception is that Vulpix is simply a mediocre Pokemon which makes using sun difficult. While Vulpix has some flaws, it is actually a decent Pokemon on its own. Vulpix's Fire Blasts hit hard and it has enough special bulk to check some key threats such as Swirlix.

• What moveset and item is the best for Vulpix?
• How much of a challenge is keeping Vulpix's alive for setting up sun while still retaining additional utility?

Core Component #2: Chlorophyll Sweepers

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Even though Vulpix is a decent Pokemon, a Chlorophyll sweeper or two should be used on a sun team, as they become devastating sweepers. Solar Beam combined with enough Speed to outspeed most standard Choice Scarf Pokemon can be very hard to beat without specific Pokemon.

• What Chlorophyll sweepers are good, and what do they have over other sweepers?
• How viable of a strategy is stacking more than 1, or even more than 2 Chlorophyll sweepers?
• How dependent are these Pokemon on sun being up?

Core Component #3: Utility Pokemon

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While a core of Vulpix + Chlorophyll sweeper is very strong, you will want some backup to support them. Sun teams will definitely want a good Fire-, Ground-, and Rock-type resistance, Pokemon to beat common sun Pokemon counters such as Munchlax, extra Sun setters, and other utilities like that.

• What support do sun teams need most?
• What Pokemon best provide this support?

Optional Component: Additional Fire-types

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Additional Fire-types may not be necessary because of Vulpix, but they are a viable option to use if you want some extra power. A lot of these Pokemon are also good at setting up sun in case Vulpix dies.

• How viable is running multiple Fire-types on a sun team?
• What holes does this cause, and how you patch them?

Of course, you are not forced to answer any of the questions; they are simply there to promote thinking and guided discussion. It is also worth talking about Pokemon that beat common sun boosted Pokemon, as well as Pokemon that do well against sun teams in general.

 

[Shouting]

No mention of Exeggcute? Grass / Psychic is kind of a mediocre typing right now, but it has good physical bulk. More importantly, it has Psychic STAB, which beats the Posion types that would otherwise check other Sun Sweepers

I think Mantyke is the best answer to Sun in all honesty, because Water types don't have the best synergy on Sun Teams. Aside from that, Cloud Nine Lickitung? Swablu?

It's worth noting that Choice Scarf Porygon can do OK against Sun, but it kinda medicore otherwise in my opinion. Probably better than Snover, which just gets completely walled by Vulpix.

 

[Darkamber8828]

I keep toodling my horn about this, but Soak Chinchou is still the best Water-type in sun. STAB hits 99% of stuff without getting nerfed by sun, and Soak + Volt Switch into Chlorophyll sweepers is so, so sexy :>

Also, Deerling is criminally underrated. STAB Return hits like a truck. Shame it doesn't get Horn Leech.

Also, I think it's great to have a second Fire-type. Sun-boosted STAB Fire moves punch holes in pretty much everything. Also, it's really cool to have a pokemon with Flash Fire, as there aren't many 4x resists in Little Cup and not having something to take sun-boosted Fire moves from your opponent sucks.

 

[Heysup]

NUMEL. People always forget how powerful Numel is in the sun. You get to +4/+4 in 1 turn and then +2 Spe after you smack something. The best part is that it still works when sun is down.

 

[Expulso]

Helioptile is surprisingly strong, with Solar Power and a Choice Scarf.

Darkamber8828 is right, Deerling is too underrated. Highest speed of all Chlorophyll sweepers. A Choice Band set would be extremely powerful. :O I might try that.

 

[DTC]

NUMEL. People always forget how powerful Numel is in the sun. You get to +4/+4 in 1 turn and then +2 Spe after you smack something. The best part is that it still works when sun is down.

I don't think Numel is very practical at all. Yeah vs players who don't know what Numel does, it'll get up to +4 /+4 / +2 and sweep. But think about the conditions you need to go through to get that. First off, you need 2 turns to set up and sweep. There are so many other Pokemon that would be nearly as strong or even as strong after 2 turns of set up (think about Shell Smash Tirtouga or Dwebble, who also have Berry Juice + Sturdy to back themselves up). If you have only 1 turn of set up, good luck at sweeping -- you're either really strong but way too slow to sweep, or you're fast but don't have enough damage to sweep. 1 turn of set up is reasonable to assume, but 2 turns -- really? And if Numel doesn't get off BOTH Flame Charge + Growth, it probably won't accomplish much. In addition, Numel also has to be in the sun to get +4/+4 boost from Growth; otherwise, it's less impressive than basically any other sweeper.

Even if Numel manages to set up EVERYTHING, it'll probably have lost most of its life by then, which means it's easy to revenge with one of the many strong priority users in the tier, such as LO Murkrow Sucker Punch, LO Meditite Fake Out, and Pawniard Sucker Punch. Like I said, it's not a bad Pokemon; it is just very impractical when you look at the grand scheme of things.


Expulso, Life Orb would be a much better choice, as Choice Band does not increase damage output by much in LC, and a sweeper really doesn't want to lock itself into one move if it can help it. As for Deerling in general, I haven't seen it much yet, so I'd love to see people post some sets / logs / etc. with Deerling in it.

Also I agree with Darkamber that Soak Chinchou is awesome on sun teams. Water synergizes very well with the Fire- and Grass-types on sun teams, and it has Volt Switch + Heal Bell to support its team (plus Soak makes Pokemon weak to Solar Beam from the sun sweepers). Another plus is that it counters Mantyke effectively, which Shouting mentioned as a great Pokemon vs sun teams.

 

[Joycdonnell]

of the few LC matches that I played using a sun team (with tangela), I found more userful Dry Skin Helioptile than Solar Power one since people like to launch water attacks even if the sun is setted. Yeah it lost some HP during the sun (like solar power one) but really helps to counter pokes like Mantyke and Slowpoke.

 

[Heysup]

I don't think Numel is very practical at all. Yeah vs players who don't know what Numel does, it'll get up to +4 /+4 / +2 and sweep. But think about the conditions you need to go through to get that. First off, you need 2 turns to set up and sweep. There are so many other Pokemon that would be nearly as strong or even as strong after 2 turns of set up (think about Shell Smash Tirtouga or Dwebble, who also have Berry Juice + Sturdy to back themselves up). If you have only 1 turn of set up, good luck at sweeping -- you're either really strong but way too slow to sweep, or you're fast but don't have enough damage to sweep. 1 turn of set up is reasonable to assume, but 2 turns -- really? And if Numel doesn't get off BOTH Flame Charge + Growth, it probably won't accomplish much. In addition, Numel also has to be in the sun to get +4/+4 boost from Growth; otherwise, it's less impressive than basically any other sweeper.

That's not how it works. Even if you know what Numel does it's often still a very prediction oriented switch from the Fire-type / Magnemite that's countering your Bellsprout/Oddish out of Numel, as it can very well beat whatever Pokemon you switch-in. For example, you could switch in Gligar if you think its going to Growth, but if it uses Flame Charge you lose. Bulky water-types are generally slower and can be potentially OHKOed by +4 Earthquake. It has its advantages over Tirt/Dwebble in its coverage and the fact that no one metagames it (you won't see like +Speed Frillish). It's also not walled by Gligar or weak to Mach Punch like Tirtouga. Both are walled by Fighting-types as well, unlike Numel.

You're basically suggesting that Numel works as a double dance Pokemon, which is very wrong. Without a boost, Flame Charge is still going to dent something because it is double STAB due to Sun, and you get to move first the next turn. The other thing to keep in mind is that Flame Charge usually does about 30-40% to most neutral bulky Pokemon (like Gligar), meaning Fire Blast or Earthquake usually KO. If the Pokemon isn't going to OHKO you, you can set up Growth on the next turn and sweep.

It's not as one dimensional as you think.

 

[Ashley11]

That's not how it works. Even if you know what Numel does it's often still a very prediction oriented switch from the Fire-type / Magnemite that's countering your Bellsprout/Oddish out of Numel, as it can very well beat whatever Pokemon you switch-in. For example, you could switch in Gligar if you think its going to Growth, but if it uses Flame Charge you lose. Bulky water-types are generally slower and can be potentially OHKOed by +4 Earthquake. It has its advantages over Tirt/Dwebble in its coverage and the fact that no one metagames it (you won't see like +Speed Frillish). It's also not walled by Gligar or weak to Mach Punch like Tirtouga. Both are walled by Fighting-types as well, unlike Numel.

You're basically suggesting that Numel works as a double dance Pokemon, which is very wrong. Without a boost, Flame Charge is still going to dent something because it is double STAB due to Sun, and you get to move first the next turn. The other thing to keep in mind is that Flame Charge usually does about 30-40% to most neutral bulky Pokemon (like Gligar), meaning Fire Blast or Earthquake usually KO. If the Pokemon isn't going to OHKO you, you can set up Growth on the next turn and sweep.

It's not as one dimensional as you think.

I've already tested out numel a bit without sun, so i have a bit of experience with it. It is honestly a bit dissapointing to me, it struggles to set up to begin with, and sticky web really screws it up too. After sticky web you are a .5X speed instead of .75, and that really sucks. even in the rain stab aqua jets and even priority in general can really screw it, since it is so frail. I mean sure, it can work, but you will need defog/rapid spin, many things can still even take a +4 earthquake or fire blast if they must, and priority will still screw it up. You will struggle to find many opportunities to set up a growth with its frailness and lack of speed in the beginning.

Calcs:

Hide

212+ Atk Tirtouga Aqua Jet vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Numel in Sun: 12-16 (52.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Remember that there is the sturdy berry juice

196+ Atk Timburr Mach Punch vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Numel: 7-10 (30.4 - 43.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO

196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Numel: 16-21 (69.5 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+4 196+ Atk Numel Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gligar in Sun: 16-19 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+4 196+ Atk Numel Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 21-25 (75 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Fake Out vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Numel: 8-10 (34.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

236+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Numel: 16-19 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

76 SpA Numel Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gligar in Sun: 15-18 (65.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

196+ Atk Numel Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gligar in Sun: 7-9 (30.4 - 39.1%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO (Even with berry juice instead of Eviolite, your situation of using flame charge on the switch-in doesnt win it for you, berry juice will activate gligar back to full health[HIDE/]

 

[Darkamber8828]

Helioptile is surprisingly strong, with Solar Power and a Choice Scarf.

Speaking of Solar Power, has anyone tried Charmander out? 371.25 base power Fire Blasts have got to hurt, and it seems like it could be an amazing Scarf cleaner. Special movepool is rather lacking (basically Fire Blast, Ancientpower, Dragon Pulse, Hidden Power is the only set), but...even resisted Fire Blasts pack major wallops, so it's ok. Gets Dragon Dance too, but I'd think Flare Blitz recoil would screw it and it has major 4MSS (DD / Flare Blitz / Tpunch / Rock Slide / Brick Break / Quick Attack).

 

[Sergetank]

Fire Blast / Ancient Power / Air Cutter / HP Filler? Charmander gets Air cutter as a new egg move for some reason this gen, and might have more coverage than dragon pulse. Why does it not get solarbeam like wtf though?

 

[Heysup]

I've already tested out numel a bit without sun, so i have a bit of experience with it. It is honestly a bit dissapointing to me, it struggles to set up to begin with, and sticky web really screws it up too. After sticky web you are a .5X speed instead of .75, and that really sucks. even in the rain stab aqua jets and even priority in general can really screw it, since it is so frail. I mean sure, it can work, but you will need defog/rapid spin, many things can still even take a +4 earthquake or fire blast if they must, and priority will still screw it up. You will struggle to find many opportunities to set up a growth with its frailness and lack of speed in the beginning.

Calcs:

Hide

212+ Atk Tirtouga Aqua Jet vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Numel in Sun: 12-16 (52.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Remember that there is the sturdy berry juice

196+ Atk Timburr Mach Punch vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Numel: 7-10 (30.4 - 43.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO

196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Numel: 16-21 (69.5 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+4 196+ Atk Numel Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gligar in Sun: 16-19 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+4 196+ Atk Numel Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 21-25 (75 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Fake Out vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Numel: 8-10 (34.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

236+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Numel: 16-19 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

76 SpA Numel Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gligar in Sun: 15-18 (65.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

196+ Atk Numel Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gligar in Sun: 7-9 (30.4 - 39.1%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO (Even with berry juice instead of Eviolite, your situation of using flame charge on the switch-in doesnt win it for you, berry juice will activate gligar back to full health[HIDE/]

Numel out of Sun is not something I would use by choice, but in the Sun its a different story. You get those important KOes on Pokemon like Gligar and the sheer threat of Growth alone makes people need to be careful otherwise they will have to deal with a +4/4 +2 numel.

The calcs, though they were probably there to show Numel's frailness, to me they actually show the opposite. Surviving anything basically gives Numel the set up it needs to sweep. With Gligar you don't Growth, you need to Flame Charge on the switch and then smack it in the face with Fire Blast. Also you said that it triggers Berry Juice but it doesn't, it does 9 damage and then Fire Blast cleanly KOes.

 

[Ashley11]

I will say that despite numel's fraility and lack of immediate power, it is quite the threat under the sun. I would still definitely watch out for sticky web and priority though, as those really cripple the camel.

On the other hand, what secondary fire types do you all find the most useful on your sun teams, if any? There is so many different possibilities to choose from. I personally have only used ponyta, and its pretty cool. Flare Blitz in the sun is nothing to laugh at.

 

[Darkamber8828]

Growlithe, Ponyta, and Larvesta are really great bulky sun setters with Morning Sun, Will-o-Wisp, and Eviolite. Ponyta sweeps best with 19 speed (and has Flash Fire), Growlithe has Intimidate, Larvesta has U-turn.

Scarf Houndour obliterates everything with Fire Blast and Dark Pulse, and has Flash Fire, which is neato.

I've also gotten wrecked pretty hard by a Scarf Cyndaquil, STAB Sun-boosted Eruption is ridiculously strong. Too bad Flash Fire isn't released, but Blaze Fire Blast still hits like a truck after your health is too low for Eruption.

 

[ghh]

After testing some sun teams, I've found Gligar to be the greatest threat. This is because not a single Fire or Chloro sweeper can switch into its STABS. It's also a dangerous counter-lead if you lead with Vulpix, and you're forced to switch into something that is bulky enough to tank an EQ, or waste a turn of Sun switching into for example a Gligar of your own to escape EQ. If you don't lead with Vulpix, you're probably leading with a hazard setter, which they can promptly Taunt and U-turn out, or set up SR for free

The omnipresent Fake Out really takes its toll on the frail sweepers such as Oddish, Bellsprout, Deerling, Scarfed Fire types, since they are all pretty much need to run Life Orb or risk missing out on Solarbeam OHKO's, as well as losing a turn of sun.

In fact, priority in general is a terrible obstacle for sun teams to face. Murkrow's Sucker Punch cleanly 2HKO's all of the sweepers, even OHKO's after a round of LO recoil and hazards. Bunnelby's Quick Attack is just as powerful. Defog or Rapid Spin seems almost mandatory so that Fire Types don't get easily revenge killed.

It seems to me the key to succeeding with sun teams is getting your sweepers safely switched in, with preferably 100% hp or one round of SR damage. This is pretty difficult, since you have to use slow Volt-Turners, or predict a support move that doesn't cripple your sweepers. Even this presents a problem, since you can switch in Electric immune pokes, but at least you can predict their switch-in and send your sweeper in safely.

Due to all this prediction and safe switching, if you're running a dedicated sun team, you really have no other choice but to run Heat Rock on Vulpix. If you're simply using a small offensive core such as Vulpix/Bulbasaur, Scarf works pretty well so that Vulpix can hit first with a powerful Fire Blast before it dies, followed up with Bulbasaur sweeping, pretty good late game shenanigans.

Unless someone can create a team that can handle all these threats, of which there are many, dedicated sun teams won't be difficult to handle. Or you could hope the opponent doesn't use Gligar or Murkrow :D

 

[Anthiese]

i would like to say, i've been running a sun team capitalizing on keeping sun alive by using 3 Prankster pokemon as disruptors and running 2 Chlorophyll sweepers.

My issue with sun is that i would like to run a physical sun sweeper but iunno if there's one notable of using (ahem Deeling isnt goo enough for me rn)

 

[Kavatika]

i would like to say, i've been running a sun team capitalizing on keeping sun alive by using 3 Prankster pokemon as disruptors and running 2 Chlorophyll sweepers.

My issue with sun is that i would like to run a physical sun sweeper but iunno if there's one notable of using (ahem Deeling isnt goo enough for me rn)

bellsprout could work, but you lose out on weather ball unless you go mixed

 

[Liquidocelot]

Has nobody really brought up choice band darumaka yet i mean come on in the sun this things flare blitz will probably Ko the entire tier minus slowpoke and other really physically bulky resists will update with calcs when im off my phone.

Edit: ok here are some fun calcs that show choice band/scarf darumakas power in sun

196+ Atk Hustle Darumaka Flare Blitz vs. 196 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke in Sun: 12-14 (42.8 - 50%) -- 60.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

196+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Darumaka Flare Blitz vs. 196 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke in Sun: 16-20 (57.1 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


196+ Atk Hustle Darumaka Flare Blitz vs. 236 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Gligar in Sun: 18-22 (69.2 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

196+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Darumaka Flare Blitz vs. 236 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Gligar in Sun: 25-31 (96.1 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

196+ Atk Hustle Darumaka Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Frillish in Sun: 16-20 (64 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

196+ Atk Hustle Darumaka Flare Blitz vs. 236 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Frillish in Sun: 12-15 (48 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

196+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Darumaka Flare Blitz vs. 236 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Frillish in Sun: 18-22 (72 - 88%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

196+ Atk Hustle Darumaka Flare Blitz vs. 212 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Hippopotas: 13-16 (50 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

196+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Darumaka Flare Blitz vs. 212 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Hippopotas: 19-24 (73 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

196+ Atk Hustle Darumaka Flare Blitz vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Porygon in Sun: 24-28 (92.3 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

196+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Darumaka Flare Blitz vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Porygon in Sun: 33-40 (126.9 - 153.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

These are some calcs against some of Lc's top physical walls there is literally no safe switch in against a banded flare blitz in sun after Sr and all this is also without counting coverage moves just flare blitz. the only switch ins are flash fire users who easily fall to coverage moves and the only thing that can destroy this thing are either faster revenge killers/scarfers (if its scarfed) and nothing can switch into the scarf set either except flash fire users/slow poke (who 2hko by u-turn) and he can only be killed by faster pokemon or priority and recoil but is guaranteed to take out at least 1-3 pokes a game.

edit:2 also just for fun 196+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Darumaka Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dry Skin Paras in Sun: 336-396 (1680 - 1980%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Electrolyte]

Ponyta @ Life Orb
Level: 5
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 196 Spe
Jolly nature
- Flare Blitz
- Wild Charge
- Flame Charge
- Morning Sun

For those of you that don't like to read long posts, let me sum this up in a few sentences:

LO Ponyta in the Sun outspeeds and kills everything. Want to beat 19 speed fuckheads? Sure, Flame Charge something weakened and OHKO everything that doesn't have major defensive investment. Want to deal heavy damage quickly and reliably? Sure, LO Flare Blitz in the sun OHKOs or 2HKOs every common thing in the tier when combined with Wild Charge coverage. Steel-types a bitch? OHKO them. Flying-types a bitch? OHKO them. Opposing teams a bitch? OHKO them. This Ponyta is fast, powerful, bulky, long lasting, and virtually unstoppable. GG, get wredy to get wrecked.



For the rest of you:

I've found LO offensive Ponyta to be a huge bitch in the Sun. Ponyta is commonly known for its defensive prowess as a Flame Body physical tank, but a sun abusing set taking advantage of its outstanding Attack and Speed stats is also extremely destructive. Its Speed is very high, hitting the coveted base 19, outspeeding everything else common in the meta and speed tieing with top tier threats such as Murkrow, Misdreavus, and Gligar. The problem is, with LO and a sun boost, Ponyta can easily OHKO all three, while only Gligar can solidly do something in return. Ponyta's natural bulk lets it survive one of LO Murkrow's Brave Birds most of the time, and just OHKO back. Misdreavus can't even OHKO with Stealth Rock up. Then, once Ponyta runs down your faster Pokemon, it has an easy time demolishing the rest of your team. Pokemon that don't resist Flare Blitz and don't carry significant defensive investment will find themselves mowed down easily. Even bulkier physical tanks such as Spritzee or Slowpoke find themselves OHKOd or 2HKOd by Ponyta's fast and powerful attacks. The fact that Fire-type resists are fairly uncommon makes Ponyta even scarier. Only Fire, Water, and Rock-types resist Fire, and Water-type can be taken down by Wild Charge quite easily. Rock-types are basically inexistent because of the presence of Gligar, and Fire-types really can't do much to stop Ponyta because of its ability, Flash Fire. Also, just having a resistance often isn't anywhere near enough; Pokemon like Chinchou, Slowpoke, and Archen are all 2HKOd by some combination of Flare Blitz and Wild Charge.

Speaking of Flash Fire, another thing Ponyta has over many other attackers are ways to quickly and effortlessly set up to enforce its sweep. Flash Fire is an awesome ability for it, letting it seize opportunities to switch in on Wil-o-Wisps and Hidden Power Fires to boost its Fire-type attacks by x1.5. With LO, Sun, and a Flash Fire boost, Flare Blitz is sure to at least have a chance of OHKOing everything that doesn't resist it, and 2HKO everything that does. Flash Fire also makes Ponyta's main nemesis, Fire-types, virtually unable to deal any significant damage to it whatsoever (Growlithe is forced to Wild Charge, which deals stomachable damage, or Close Combat, which also deals stomachable damage and is easily punishable.) Flash Fire also lets it easily beat other defensive Ponyta and Vulpix.

Flame Charge is another deadly setup move Ponyta has in its arsenal. While not extremely powerful, it boosts Ponyta's Speed by one point, and if it can manage to get it off without sustaining damage, it can easily then outspeed everything and pick off whatever it wants. As I said before, it also certainly isn't weak, and with LO and Sun boosting it, it can deal quite a bit of damage to finish off weaker foes while simultaneously granting Ponyta a boost to its already fast Speed.

The last move in Ponyta's set is Morning Sun, which caters to the fact that Ponyta's attacks, while powerful, wear it down really easy when combined with Life Orb recoil. Morning Sun patches this up easily, healing Ponyta by 66% in one swift move, helping it heal against the weaker walls that might try to outlast it or stall out its sun. Morning Sun makes stalling Ponyta not an option, and also lets it heal itself so that it can come in continuously when its sun is put up again.

LO Ponyta is still extremely uncommon compared to its defensive counterpart, but it's a destructive killer once it gets its ball rolling.


Really the only real problem with this set in my experience is the reliance on Sun support, but it's not that annoying because Ponyta can still deal massive damage outside of the sun. The main problem is teambuilding repetition, and I feel that this goes the same for a lot of other sun-abusing Fire-types- Vulpix is pure Fire-type, so if you pair another Fire-type with it, you're stacking Rock, Ground, and Water weaknesses, all of three of which are pretty common coverage attacks. Stealth Rock is also an issue; it's not too common and can be removed by does make it difficult to play with Ponyta, basically shutting both its support down and also its longevity until removed. Still, Ponyta is very threatening, and I have yet to see any major counters to this set aside from Scarfed Pokemon or lucky speed tie wins.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Fire Blast / Ancient Power / Air Cutter / HP Filler? Charmander gets Air cutter as a new egg move for some reason this gen, and might have more coverage than dragon pulse. Why does it not get solarbeam like wtf though?

Air Cutter is basically Hidden Power Flying with a slight miss chance. There's nothing Flying hits super effectively that resists Fire anyway, and is therefore not an ideal coverage option.

bellsprout could work, but you lose out on weather ball unless you go mixed

There is absolutely no reason to use Bellsprout over Bulbasaur unless you specifically want to use Weather Ball, as Bulbasaur has superior stats. You also have to be mindful that while Weather Ball is a notably stronger attacking option than HP Fire in Sun, Weather Ball becomes a Normal-type move with poor coverage outside of Sun, whereas HP Fire maintains its type. Another less important move Bellsprout gets that Bulbasaur doesn't is Sucker Punch, but both Bellsprout and Bulbasaur have access to Knock Off, which is generally a better choice. Removing items and having a stronger and more reliable Dark-type move is a lot more ideal than having priority when you already outspeed the whole tier in the Sun, which is the only reason you'd run a Chlorophyll sweeper anyway.

 

[Darkamber8828]

Yeah, the best Scarf Charmander set is Fire Blast / HP Electric (Mantyke, Tirtouga) / Dragon Pulse (Tyrunt)/ Ancientpower (Flash Fire Houndour / Ponyta). Flamethrower can be run in one of the last two slots, but most of the time you're just clicking Fire Blast.

Scarf Charmander IS really, really strong, but it's not a sweeper as much as s nuke. Switch in, kill something, switch out of the Fake Out / Sucker Punch / bulky water that you can't 2HKO. Solar Power and Stealth Rock screw your health, but it's not a big deal because Charmander shouldn't be tanking anything that isn't resisted or weak priority anyway.