Survivor Stupid Survivor: Season One FINAL TRIBAL COUNCIL

Celever

i am town
is a Community Contributor
I'll say that my playstyle is working with allies and coming up with plans and ideas together. It's hard to quantify that in a FTC scenario where the decisions are made in private, I guess unless the people involved also go to bat for me in the jury chat.
I feel like your influence post merge is over stated.

F11- What happened was definitely not because of you and me, whydon/tbz were key votes no matter how you cut it, and species was involved in having rumors spread about him too.
I was legitimately under the impression that it was us. IIRC I brought it up to you in conversation and then we were the first to put Inferno on the table to others at which point it became clear that it was salient with Whydon/TBZ/Species. Perhaps Inferno was gone regardless due to the rumours and things, but I thought we at least directed discussion there. Sorry if I was wrong aha.
F10-Probably the only point where you had most agency? And even then it is hard to see who takes more credit for f10 here, you or species.
Species and I talked throughout the whole live tribal about our vote together. I don't remember who gave the final say, though. I think it was me but I wouldn't want to say for certain.
F9- I don't understand how you think that this is an example of you controlling things from the shadows. Tbz/whydon have to choose between giving jal/I the Idol or you/species the Idol, and we didn't get it because we betrayed them in f10. That is not an example of you controlling from the shadows, that is an example of you reaping the benefits of fallout in the other social dynamics in the game. It isn't hard to recognize that the immunity will be passed between joe/texas/alimdia in some manner, I don't see where the mastermind strategy is over here?
The impression at the time was that Texas might give the immunity to you + Jal instead of Joe. I don't know whether that's true or not, but Whydon, Species and I discussed this challenge a lot in our chat and then reached out to others to confirm that the immunity would travel as we had planned, ensuring it was passed to Joe first so that both would definitely be safe.

On a side note I have no trouble with being a good ally and helping my allies with their games in lieu of helping my own. At this point I felt that I had a route to at least the lategame and so when we were working out who should deepen their bond with Ali by passing the immunity to him, I stepped aside and let Species do it. Doesn't necessarily show agency but it's how I usually stay on the top of alliances rather than the bottom, which is beneficial in its own way.
F8- Tbz was an unanimous vote, please tell me where you had any influence over here?
I said in my post that TBZ was unanimous and skipped past it. I'm not claiming to have done anything here lol but it was good for my game because he was the last person I didn't really have a connection with.
F8 again- Considering species was your closest ally, there isn't any real strategy in choosing between alimdia and I when you've admitted that we didn't have you in our endgame plans, if anything it is a stroke against you that you had worse challenge performance here given the nature of how elimination worked this round.
Oh yeah I absolutely sucked at challenges this season. I usually win party games like Parroting and sometimes grinding-based challenges if I need the win and that's about it, and neither really came up unless practising Machiavelli counts. If y'all decide to vote me it's not for my challenge performances aha.

The social game here relied on talking to people to pick the target that on balance my allies wanted out the most, and the unanimous votes show that I chose correctly (I don't think it would have been unanimous had I nominated Ali based on the conversations I had and may have put me in danger).
F7-Good job voting Texas out, however, most of the game wanted to vote Texas anyway. How does that make you more influential than the rest of the game?
Again I don't really take credit for voting Texas out. It was Joe's plan and it was Whydon who messaged and called me right before deadline to tell me to change my vote. However, related to the first paragraph of this post is that I set the groundwork for it to turn out this way. Once Joe revealed he was interested in blindsiding Texas, I think I was a key player in getting Joe and Whydon involved in each other's endgame plans, which led to the plan to blindside Texas if he and Whydon were the two on the chopping block.

Furthermore, in this instance it was a 4-3 vote and I technically could have voted Whydon here, which would have been valid because then PHST easily sweeps the rest of the game. I chose the more chaotic and risky route for my game of taking out Texas, which stripped me of guaranteed F4 but I think paid off overall by taking out a challenge and jury threat.

F6-You wanted ali out over laurel,despite laurel having the strongest narrative of being a challenge beast who convinced people to flip votes constantly and came back from elimination...only because you thought that he was easy to beat because texas and I wouldn't vote him? I don't think this is a point in your favor at all...
I was fairly bad in the F6 challenge yeah, doing everything in public was weird and I think I equivocated a fair bit. With that said, I essentially had a vote weight of 3 here because Whydon and Species sheeped me (in this challenge) which shows influence to a degree.

It's worth noting that I also had the same deal with Laurel that he would take me to the end as I did with Joe. In my mind, a challenge beast with my self-pres in mind was a good presence in the game for me in a F5 with a lot of crossover allegiances. I fully admit to underestimating Laurel's jury credibility, though. My metrics for judging jury cred seem to be far away from the standard.

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When I say I had social influence it's more so about who got into the influential positions rather than the votes and targets themselves. I was always in voting blocks that directed the game, and I still think there's something to be said for voting in majority every single time except for intentional ties and idol plays. I definitely aimed to keep my target level low and was probably intimidated by the fair amount of votes I received in the early stages of the game at several different roosters, leading me to take a more self-pres approach during merge. But at the end of the day, I'm at the end so the self-pres worked. And I still believe I played a part in talking with people and planning out our routes through the game together, and that this guided the more openly influential players' decisions and moves, which IMO is socially influential.
 
Alright, I understand what you mean by social influence.

I want to say that yes you found yourself in a position where no one wanted to vote you for a long time, but alimdia had a very similar game until f6.In fact he got a target on his back during f6 because he didn't want to vote his ally joe,when he was in the minority, which is very understandable. How is your game different from his? Yes you found yourself voting on the majority more than him but how does that influence your position better than alimdia's? His f11 didn't put him in a worse position than before, so the only vote I can even think of is...f10? I will note that the time you were at your strongest position this game was f10,and no later.

From f6 onwards, alimdia clearly has more influence here, and also takes out notable threats in laurel and joe. While he put himself at more risk of getting voted out, it is also clear that he played harder to protect himself.


So I need to ask, what are the points in the game where your social influence mattered more compared to alimdia's? Because you two have very similar games for the majority of merge, so I'm not able to tell much difference between your games.
 
I guess I do have one question: Why did you think that species has to go at 5 and not at 4 or 3? I've been told that he was your closest ally.

And, did you have a plan for what would happen if you eliminated alimdia at 6?
 

Celever

i am town
is a Community Contributor
Alright, I understand what you mean by social influence.

I want to say that yes you found yourself in a position where no one wanted to vote you for a long time, but alimdia had a very similar game until f6.In fact he got a target on his back during f6 because he didn't want to vote his ally joe,when he was in the minority, which is very understandable. How is your game different from his? Yes you found yourself voting on the majority more than him but how does that influence your position better than alimdia's? His f11 didn't put him in a worse position than before, so the only vote I can even think of is...f10? I will note that the time you were at your strongest position this game was f10,and no later.

From f6 onwards, alimdia clearly has more influence here, and also takes out notable threats in laurel and joe. While he put himself at more risk of getting voted out, it is also clear that he played harder to protect himself.


So I need to ask, what are the points in the game where your social influence mattered more compared to alimdia's? Because you two have very similar games for the majority of merge, so I'm not able to tell much difference between your games.
The first thing that comes to mind where my social influence outshone Ali's is in the RAD vote where Ali was the original target. Ali admitted to not knowing he was receiving any votes here, and voted in minority at that. Species and I saved Ali, partly because we thought we could work with him later but primarily because tribal phase was almost over and we wanted RAD out before merge. Had RAD not been the other option, then Ali goes here every time. It shows a distinct lack of social influence and awareness, and while I disagree with Whydon that Ali was lucky at the end-game, which he played very well, I think this is an example of him being lucky earlier on in the game and due to his lack of social influence it was that happenstance that saved him when he was in the firing line.

During the merge phase, Ali was frequently a "next time" target. I feel he was passed over in some votes because there were bigger fish to fry, rather than because he was seen as an asset to enough people's games that they wanted him around. A good example of this is the F8 vote where you were eliminated, Marth. More people wanted you gone than Ali, but not many people cared about either of you actually staying. To me this shows a complete lack of social influence that once again could very easily have landed him in the firing line, and indeed had some of us been more interested in goating TBZ to the end than taking him out in the first F8 vote, I believe it would have been you leaving in the first F8 vote and Ali leaving in the second, if not the other way around, even. Ali was a target before F6, he just didn't receive votes until then if that makes sense.

By comparison, I kept myself in enough people's plans that there wasn't a vote in this game where I was in legitimate danger, despite receiving a few votes over the course of the season (primarily in the early stages). An occasional minority target is a better example of the "marathon" style of game than Ali's, where he was saved by me and Species performing a gambit to take someone else out rather than to save him and was nexted a lot. This is of course counterpointed by Ali's burst at the end indeed being better than mine, though I had one right at the end when I grinded the Machiavelli challenge with friends. And it really is a bad game -- one of my friends I played it with (NinjaPenguin, some of you might know him from other forums) called it a "slow grind to insanity" -- so grinding it was not fun :P

My burst at the lategame wasn't as good as I was hoping for it to be, but again it was enough to beat Whydon and get me here which is all that was needed, and after a more consistent game up until that point where I was never in real danger, I think it tips my game in favour of Ali's.
I guess I do have one question: Why did you think that species has to go at 5 and not at 4 or 3? I've been told that he was your closest ally.
I spoke on this a little before, but the threat of Species blindsiding me at F5 was I think fairly legitimate despite us being close, assuming he had had the same thought process as me -- that we would have a spoiler effect on each other in a F3 scenario -- which at this point was still seen as the likeliest probability because even number juries are very rare. Outside of that, a perceived duo this late in the game is a pretty big target just due to the influence 2 votes has when there's 5 people left, and the fact that Species is head-based while I'm a little more heart-based in gameplay, which makes him more predictable and me a little more of a wildcard, meant I thought it was rational that I would be cut instead of him if our duo were to be targeted. It was just a possibility that I thought should have been nixed at that point.

I'll readily admit that Joe and Ali misted me a little in this rooster, but I also think my reasons for jumping the gun on voting Species out earlier than I had originally planned are legitimate. I am sorry to Species for the blindside, though. It was only game-motivated.
And, did you have a plan for what would happen if you eliminated alimdia at 6?
Basically, whenever Laurel was next on the block he was outta there. Beyond that, Species would have been taken out at 5 if Laurel's immune or 4 if he isn't, and I set up a 3-man with Whydon and Joe with the purpose of executing that plan to take out Species (both said they were on board). If Laurel wins immunity in F5 and F4, we probably take out Joe in F4 honestly. Laurel and Whydon vote Joe there every time I think, and there's no point going to firemaking.
 
I don't think ali ever gets voted before joe or Texas, mostly because joe and Texas have bigger visibility,

I will however concede that you having connections with joe/texas early on kept you safe, probably explains why he wanted to vote tbz over you lol
 
I will however give celever credit for getting rad out, unless laurel/species think otherwise
species took rad out. Celever wasnt able to vote in the revote because it was between he and rad if i recall.

i was leaning towards doing celever and whydon agreed because “he proved he wasnt reliable” but species forced my hand and said celever was the bad vote and to vote Rad
 
That definitely makes me think that he just happened to be targeted and that he didn't actually do anything with this good social position that he claims
rad was gunning for him every vote on haley tribe really but i never like voting out ppl on the bottom.

there was a point where cal had like 10 votes against him and then managed to get 0 votes the rest of the game though
 
Oh I knew about rad targeting him ever since the start of the game, never knew why though,although cel was never in actual danger of getting the majority on him in dumber tribe because most of us didn't care about voting him, the only people who did were rad paper and snype.

The thing is the most I can credit him with is getting rad voted off for targeting him, but if the person responsible for voting off rad was you/species then that means even when he was being targeted he didn't mastermind voting off rad much, when it was most crucial. I think he gets into a much better social position at merge but that also means being in that position of influence is less crucial to his game since he can coast off of goodwill.
 

Celever

i am town
is a Community Contributor
species took rad out. Celever wasnt able to vote in the revote because it was between he and rad if i recall.

i was leaning towards doing celever and whydon agreed because “he proved he wasnt reliable” but species forced my hand and said celever was the bad vote and to vote Rad
After Species and I saved Ali with the tie we flipped Ali who wouldn't vote for me in the revote, and neither would Species because we were close allies. With neither of them shifting, you and Whydon were left with the choice to go to rocks or vote RAD out.

Admittedly this isn't how I thought it was gonna go ahead of time, but I thought it was worth pointing out. Definitely Species masterminded this plan though, I've never denied that. But I put myself in danger when I agreed to it and actually did raise my target level in the short-term (as said here where you and Whydon wanted to vote me out afterwards) which was a risky gambit in order to take a threat to my game out, and actually was the most danger I was in all game.
 
My thoughts of what happens if alimdia is voted at F5
-Short answer: either Joe or Laurel is sitting at F2 right now, and they win. Most likely Joe is sitting here because of that F5 challenge.
In particular, I know Laurel was really good at pokemon, but Joe likely still wins coding challenge.
Speaking of which, I didn't lose the coding challenge because I was bad at it, I just got unlucky with where I started from in the brute force solve. But I think the fact that I survived the vote without immunity is impressive in itself. Hal himself was asking us wtf happened.


Regarding the vote where Rad went home,
I would give Species credit for 'flipping' me at the Rad vote and then Species and I half-forced Laurel and Whydon's hand when we threatened rocks since I knew you guys would not want to draw rocks.
That in addition with Species part in the F11 and F10 vote just emphasized to me how big of a player Species is. Like, I already knew that from before just from our conversations but that just confirmed it.
Additionally I want to add that Species is also relatively good at hiding his threat level. In particular, Joe thought Cel was the mastermind in the duo and I had to convince him otherwise.
 
Cel The reason you said there was always next time to vote alimdia out was because I wasn't the biggest fish to fry. There was always bigger fish to fry. That is called the meat shield strategy. Many people have used it in survivor. And when I no longer have shields, I still have an idol as a backup, or be near the home stretch where I can challenge beast out after the other challenge beasts have been eliminated.

And as you know, 'next time' is not a solid guarantee. For example, Laurel was supposed to be gone 'next time' so many times.
You think there is always next time to vote off alimdia, until you never get another opportunity to. That's why I took the chance I had to get Laurel out, I may never have another chance 'next time'.
 

Celever

i am town
is a Community Contributor
Cel The reason you said there was always next time to vote alimdia out was because I wasn't the biggest fish to fry. There was always bigger fish to fry. That is called the meat shield strategy. Many people have used it in survivor. And when I no longer have shields, I still have an idol as a backup, or be near the home stretch where I can challenge beast out after the other challenge beasts have been eliminated.

And as you know, 'next time' is not a solid guarantee. For example, Laurel was supposed to be gone 'next time' so many times.
You think there is always next time to vote off alimdia, until you never get another opportunity to. That's why I took the chance I had to get Laurel out, I may never have another chance 'next time'.
We both used the meat shield strategy this season. This was alluded to when I cited Species probably having a lower target level than me at F6 hence me voting him out. I was in good with Laurel, Joe and Texas, the 3 challenge beasts this season, and had them taking shots at each other until late in the game. I was wholly intending on challenge beasting at the end, but you were admittedly better at the final challenges than me. However, though I only won one challenge during merge, it was the last one and got me here.

If we're talking meat shield strategy, I had a lower target level for the merge portion of the game and a solider route to the end from early on, and so arguably executed it better on paper at least.
 
Alright Cel there's a few things I'm gonna need you to clarify:

F7

Hoo boy this vote. Laurel can testify that I hated every second of this rooster. Audience probably laughed at my heart-to-heart with him about how I legitimately cared for both he and Texas and my conscience hurt at the thought of voting either of them out. I also happened to be out on this particular day for the most part, but had talked with Joe, Texas and Laurel quite a bit during that day and eventually put my vote on Laurel, intending to check back in at deadline. It was better for my game for Laurel to go there at that point, as I didn't want to burn a bridge with Joe or Texas.

And then just before deadline Whydon messaged, and we had a quick voice call (I'm sorry for being as drunk as I was Whydon aha). Whydon had become the counter-wagon and it was between him and Texas. As per my conversation with Joe before, between Whydon and Texas I voted for Texas. I believed this was the blindside we had been waiting for, but it turns out it wasn't that in Joe's mind. Regardless, taking Texas out was good for my game here as it really shifted the game. Everyone at this point was exposed and alone except for me and Species.
I told you at the very top of the round that I didn't think it was the time to take Texas out and that Laurel was a much bigger issue we needed to take care of. And I was really pushing that. I get that you were busy that day but still to say that you thought this was the blindside I had been planning without making any effort to discuss it with me seems like a misplay on your part. I understand being busy and drunk close to deadline but the Texas move was probably the single biggest move I approached you with and I just can't see how it would make any sense to think that the move was happening with zero communication. Not to mention that don't you think if I had been planning to execute it I would've said something to you along the lines of "plans changed, it's time to do Texas"? Did you actually believe this was gonna be the big move we had talked about or is that just a front to make yourself look/feel less guilty about it?

F6

Ali takes credit for this challenge in his post above, but that couldn't be further from the truth. At this point, I hadn't been talking frequently with Ali and I identified that he was closer with Species than myself. Laurel was a great ally to me and, with Texas gone, so was Joe. Whydon and Species followed me here and made me choose who went, presumably so as to not burn bridges, and as Ali was by far my weakest ally, I chose him to go. Almost everything put in that chat was me trying to preserve a shot at Ali's jury vote. I was never voting Laurel or Joe there, and as the vassal of 3 entire votes I decided what happened. Ali's idol play was great, but he didn't bait the target. I pushed it onto him and that was my plan from the start. At some point toward the start before it was clear that Species and Whydon would sheep me I tried to subtly tell Laurel to push the target onto Ali by typing "not gonn alie" but it didn't work. However, that's verification if you need it.
I'd like to know what changed your opinion on Laurel that quickly between F7 and F6. You say here that you were never gonna vote Laurel and that he was a great ally to you, but you claim to have had your vote on him pretty much up until deadline in F7. And in F6 you seemed to buy right into his whole BS plea about not being a threat. So what occurred in the span of less than one round for you to do a complete 180 on Laurel and go from almost voting him out to being completely unwilling to do so?
 
Alright Cel there's a few things I'm gonna need you to clarify:



I told you at the very top of the round that I didn't think it was the time to take Texas out and that Laurel was a much bigger issue we needed to take care of. And I was really pushing that. I get that you were busy that day but still to say that you thought this was the blindside I had been planning without making any effort to discuss it with me seems like a misplay on your part. I understand being busy and drunk close to deadline but the Texas move was probably the single biggest move I approached you with and I just can't see how it would make any sense to think that the move was happening with zero communication. Not to mention that don't you think if I had been planning to execute it I would've said something to you along the lines of "plans changed, it's time to do Texas"? Did you actually believe this was gonna be the big move we had talked about or is that just a front to make yourself look/feel less guilty about it?



I'd like to know what changed your opinion on Laurel that quickly between F7 and F6. You say here that you were never gonna vote Laurel and that he was a great ally to you, but you claim to have had your vote on him pretty much up until deadline in F7. And in F6 you seemed to buy right into his whole BS plea about not being a threat. So what occurred in the span of less than one round for you to do a complete 180 on Laurel and go from almost voting him out to being completely unwilling to do so?
I just want to say that Cel had a conversation with me that he promised me not to repeat which was basically like - I'm probably voting you because I don't want to betray Texas again. My reaction was "????????" and about 10 minutes before deadline Whydon called Celever and got him to switch his vote to Texas.

Cel was very torn on this vote, I think its possible Whydon convinced him I was a non-threat.
 

Celever

i am town
is a Community Contributor
Alright Cel there's a few things I'm gonna need you to clarify:

I told you at the very top of the round that I didn't think it was the time to take Texas out and that Laurel was a much bigger issue we needed to take care of. And I was really pushing that. I get that you were busy that day but still to say that you thought this was the blindside I had been planning without making any effort to discuss it with me seems like a misplay on your part. I understand being busy and drunk close to deadline but the Texas move was probably the single biggest move I approached you with and I just can't see how it would make any sense to think that the move was happening with zero communication. Not to mention that don't you think if I had been planning to execute it I would've said something to you along the lines of "plans changed, it's time to do Texas"? Did you actually believe this was gonna be the big move we had talked about or is that just a front to make yourself look/feel less guilty about it?
I don't think it's a front to feel less guilty about it tbh. The conversation we had had was basically that Whydon had replaced Texas in your endgame plans, and as Whydon was also in Species' and I think Laurel's endgame plans, meant I thought it was the alliance-minded move to take him out. I knew that you weren't voting for Texas yourself in this particular vote, but on balance I thought taking Texas out was less bad for your game than taking Whydon out would have been for my other allies due to the conversations we had had, which was important when my gameplay was to remain as close to the top of everyone else's allegiances as possible.

You know that you convinced me that a Texas blindside had to happen at some point and that before our talk at ~F8 I was in the mindset of PHST battling it out at the end between us. And you were totally right to change my mind, because clearly Texas was a huge jury threat and I didn't come close to his standard.

On reflection, after organising my thoughts by typing this out, yes I wish I would have been able to talk with you on the day and not been out, but I probably vote Texas out there anyway because cost-benefit analysis is simple here. The cost was that you were gonna vote him out like, one rooster earlier than you wanted to. The benefit was that the rest of my allies wanted him out at that point. And as soon as things moved off of Laurel and onto Whydon, who was now in the inner circle of our plans while Texas was seen as expendable, it was a fairly clear choice.
I'd like to know what changed your opinion on Laurel that quickly between F7 and F6. You say here that you were never gonna vote Laurel and that he was a great ally to you, but you claim to have had your vote on him pretty much up until deadline in F7. And in F6 you seemed to buy right into his whole BS plea about not being a threat. So what occurred in the span of less than one round for you to do a complete 180 on Laurel and go from almost voting him out to being completely unwilling to do so?
Some of what Laurel said above in terms of heart-minded play, combined with that it was after and during this vote in particular where I made the deal with Laurel that he would take me to the end if he got the opportunity through challenge wins (and vice versa, had I actually won a challenge). This game has helped me realise that my metrics for judging jury cred are outside the norm because I overestimated my own and underestimated Laurel's, and thought there was a >0% chance of me beating him at the end. So perhaps that deal was dumb to make, but I was also in self-pres mode at this stage.

The F6 challenge itself was a lot of me trying not to reveal my deal and closeness with Laurel, while also saving him in a rooster where he was the more obvious target. I wouldn't read into what was actually said there that much, more than anything I was enjoying watching the tea get spilled by the rest of y'all :P

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My thoughts of what happens if alimdia is voted at F5
-Short answer: either Joe or Laurel is sitting at F2 right now, and they win. Most likely Joe is sitting here because of that F5 challenge.
In particular, I know Laurel was really good at pokemon, but Joe likely still wins coding challenge.
Speaking of which, I didn't lose the coding challenge because I was bad at it, I just got unlucky with where I started from in the brute force solve. But I think the fact that I survived the vote without immunity is impressive in itself. Hal himself was asking us wtf happened.
This is pretty much falsifiable. Granted, it's falsifiable with hindsight, but hey.

We know that Joe wins the next challenge (coding), so Laurel is voted out in F5. I wouldn't have tried to fight that, nor had the numbers to. The point of the F6 vote was that Ali was my target for having less use to my game, as up to that point he hadn't won a challenge and didn't care about my self pres, so I wanted Laurel to stay there because if anyone were gonna challenge sweep from there, it was better for me if it were him. So at F5, Laurel goes anyway.

Then F4, it's Me-Joe-Species-Whydon. Unless Species wins immunity, he actually goes here. If Species does win immunity, then Joe goes. Plus, there's every chance that Whydon decides to save Species and take Joe out here. He was ostensibly good with the plan to take Species out, but a lot happened between when that plan was agreed and F4 so it's not a dead certainty.

F3 it's hard to know what would happen. The first leg of that challenge was obviously very stupid, and the second leg I practised hard in and actually became good at that dumb card game. There's every chance that Joe gets out here, depending on if he draws 5 cards in Paint or not. This is too hypothetical, and ig only Joe knows if he would have figured out Part 1 of that challenge. After a long enough silence from Hal, I think I would've too. I almost did a text submission which I'm not sure would have counted, depends on Hal.

.....I've just realised the joke is draw = make a picture of and draw = take cards. So a text submission wouldn't have counted. Paint takes a solid 2-3 minutes to open on my computer rn, don't know why, so I was doomed from the start. Ah well.

This devolves into very hypothetical territory later on, but the beginning of the scenario is much less so. Laurel definitely doesn't make it to the end (unless he's secretly good at coding), and Joe is unlikely to. Either way, taking you out there results in the planned F4 between myself, Joe, Species and Whydon, and then either of the F3 deals me and Whydon had together with Joe or Species. So with hindsight, we know it would have been a better execution of mine and my allies' plans, and was the right call.
 
im honestly of the belief that the forced tie move at the rad/cel vote was a bad move that only happened to pay off because laurel did not submit his vote. had laurel voted it would've been 2-2-2 and he/I would've been able to decide what to do there, and i believe we both would've just voted ali out after seeing species/cel being so desperate to save him for whatever reason. i think in this situation species/cel reveal their hands too early and it would only strengthen our tie with rad while limiting species'/cel's options for allies come merge. of course i might be wrong but i specifically remember being upset bc i thought that what should've been a terrible move was paying off because laurel somehow managed to do something worse. i could be wrong though?
 
Sorry I havn't been very involved in the FTC -- I'm happy for both of you but not entirely invested in the winner.

Celever was obviously a lot more genuine with me this game and I think he made a few mistakes, but ultimately, he insulated himself well and voted out the people he was working with to distinguish himself. I can see how, from his perspective, Species was the better vote at F5 because if F2 were him and Species, he has no chance.

In the same vein, Ali was a snake yet he tries to put on this facade that he is an honest guy. He just found different people to sheep all game while Cel was building relationships with the same core group of people that were all bigger threats than him.

I really just don't think Ali did anything that merits winning (unless you want to make the argument that Cel did even less like what Texas said). Like, to me, I just see the story of a typical EOE returner (obviously he is not one), he did nothing for the first 20 votes of the game, plays an idol in a public voting trial and puts together a couple immunities in some cheese challenges. Ali went into the game just trying to make alliances with his existing EIMM friends and completely failed so he played the roll of a goat.

Here is how I see it:

1. Celever played a sheep game
2. Ali played a sheep game
3. Celever played the middle very well and nobody targeted him (making relationships with Joe for instance, even Texas?)
4. Ali played the middle and everyone knew he was doing it and people quickly lost trust in him except for Joe who had no other options after he flipped on me.

I think they both tried to play the same game and Celever did better at it. Keeping the target off his back after getting voted in the first like 5-6 tribals.

If any of the jurors disagree with points 1 to 4 please let me know.
 
btw for me ali got lucky at the vote where laurel didn't submit his vote (for obvious reasons that i've stated already) and arguably at the f6 vote bc species says he was asleep until a few minutes before the vote and had his vote on joe. had species failed to wake up we possibly see a tied vote between joe/laurel and i think joe gets voted here BUT im not confident bc ali/cel could theoretically force a tie bc i know celever was close with joe. however if species/cel/myself vote together against joe i dont know if ali actually makes f2 from that point and if he does it's possibly with laurel/species, a f2 that i don't think he wins at all. i think a him/me f2 is theoretically possible but given the f3 challenge and how it was set-up im convinced there was no way i was making f2 unless i get luckier in machiavelli in this "alternate" universe. species waking up right before the deadline sealed laurel's vote bc we didnt split successfully which took out one of ali's main competition when it came to those challenges. also with joe out idk if alimdia can get cel to flip on species at f5 unless he gets laurel to do it, but in that case we probably see a laurel/x f2 because laurel's chances of winning f4 immunity are probably pretty good. please correct me if i'm wrong though since this is all largely hypothetical.

by the way, when it was cel vs. me for EC in the f4 challenge i asked him to throw it for me bc i knew my chances of survival weren't good if i was on the block and had my vote negated. however if ali was already planning to stab joe then ig it didn't matter in the long-run. idk if this impacts anyone's view of celever's game but yeah that was a thing that happened.
 
in alternative universe where species doesn't wake up, I have to beat Ali at f5. I have enough coding experience to be able to do this considering I took Java in college. F4 challenge, I didn't really look much into, but at something Pokemon related.. I feel like I'd do fine.

It really comes down to F5 challenge and if I'm capable of beating Ali. I feel like if I lose this, I'd get voted out.

I do agree, there's a difference between getting lucky and the gods of the universe being in your favor lol (I cant believe I'm saying this but its true)
 
even if you don't think the f6 thing was luck, ali surviving that one vote because laurel forgot to vote is...very lucky. so lucky that it's enough for me to say that ali got to f2 largely because of luck. ofc luck is an element to survivor but this feels particularly exceptional idk. ngl Energy i thought you abstained on purpose so that it wouldn't be you stabbing alimdia, if that's the case then it wasn't so much luck and more laurel making a poor decision but i believe you when you say that it was unintentional so yeah thats how i stand on that.
 

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