STAB STABmons

[HiZo]

Revival Blessing is still stuck in development, but I was wondering what would abuse this move, and then I saw a certain Pokemon....


Arboliva @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Revival Blessing
- Rapid Spin
- Strength Sap
- Spiky Shield

A Grass/Normal Type with Harvest allows this set to really flourish (theoretically). Especially with Strength Sap recovery it will be an annoying Pokemon that has a habit of reversing progress. Spiky Shield is even there to try and fish for harvest while simultaneously punishing the opponent for clicking Knock Off. It has 70/90/109 bulk which can be a bit of a downer but its interesting movepool might make up for that.

 

[in the hills]

Extreme Speed, Fillet Away, and Last Respects are restricted from STABmons!​

Following our second voting slate, the council has decided to restrict Extreme Speed, Fillet Away, and Last Respects.
Extreme Speed
Extreme Speed really needs no introduction, having been banned the past two generations as well. This generation, there were less obvious users of it to start, with Ursaring really being the forefront of powerful Normal-types. However, other Normal-types like Zangoose, Braviary, and even Slaking/Cyclizar became potent users of the move as the metagame developed. Extreme Speed's most broken user however came from Azumarill, despite Extreme Speed being non-STAB it took Belly Drum sets to the next level by stopping offensive counterplay (pretty much just faster priority at the moment due to Jet Punch) and provided decent coverage for Water-type resists. On top of that, Azumarill could use Tera to become a Normal-type and boost Extreme Speed to well... extreme levels. When looking at this in conjunction with the already too strong Normal-types using Extreme Speed, it becomes clear that Extreme Speed was creating an unhealthy metagame where the move was almost required to beat other Extreme Speed users, and thus the move was banned.

Fillet Away
Fillet Away was mentioned in our previous watchlist and for good reason- while this move had a worse prerequisite to set up than Shell Smash, it can be equally as threatening in most situations. An immediate +2 to 3 stats is very difficult to deal with, especially on a type that already gets so many move options and ways to bypass the 50% HP reduction. Users of this move like Sylveon, Indeedee, Farigara- just about any Normal-type really could become potent setup sweepers and while it isn't a completely fool-proof move, we feel it has no place in this metagame.

Last Respects
LOL RIP BOZO. We all know why this one is getting restricted

Votes:

Vote	Fc	in the hills	LBDC	pannu	RESULT:
Terastallization	DNB	DNB	DNB	DNB	DNB (0-4)
Chien-Pao	DNB	DNB	DNB	DNB	DNB (0-4)
Cyclizar	DNB	BAN	BAN	DNB	DNB (2-2)
Iron Bundle	DNB	BAN	BAN	DNB	DNB (2-2)
Extreme Speed	RES	RES	ABS	RES	RES (3-0-1)
Fillet Away	RES	RES	ABS	RES	RES (3-0-1)
Last Respects	RES	RES	RES	RES	RES (4-0)
Shift Gear	DNR	DNR	ABS	DNR	DNR (0-3-1)

We obviously voted on quite a lot this time around, and I'll quickly go through why some of these things weren't banned. Tera is the big one here, and while I personally find it broken, I don't think we've given it enough time yet and I'd like to have a bigger vote on it in the future. Chien-Pao was from our previous watchlist and since then it's proved to be a lot more manageable than we had previously thought. Obviously it is still a big contender in the metagame but we've eased our sights on it a little for now. Cyclizar and Iron Bundle I can't really comment on, I think both are quite broken personally but I suppose frailness in a priority-heavy metagame played a part in them staying. Finally, we are still looking at Shift Gear since it is pretty strong, but so far we haven't found it to be too good and if Steel-types do crop up as more broken after these bans, we'll give this or maybe Gigaton Hammer a closer look to see what the root issue is.

I'm not gonna talk to much about the next metagame yet as I have another post planned soon, but let us know your thoughts! Also apologies for the delay on the results, holiday weekend made it a bit difficult to get all of the votes together. Thanks!

Tagging Kris to implement Extreme Speed, Fillet Away, and Last Respects restrictions.

 

[PrincessGardevoir]

Fillet Away
Fillet Away was mentioned in our previous watchlist and for good reason- while this move had a worse prerequisite to set up than Shell Smash, it can be equally as threatening in most situations. An immediate +2 to 3 stats is very difficult to deal with, especially on a type that already gets so many move options and ways to bypass the 50% HP reduction. Users of this move like Sylveon, Indeedee, Farigara- just about any Normal-type really could become potent setup sweepers and while it isn't a completely fool-proof move, we feel it has no place in this metagame.

Last Respects
LOL RIP BOZO. We all know why this one is getting restricted

fucking BANGER POST and BANGER BANS. Was great finding the one person trying to abuse Azu on ladder for the last bit only to lose to an idiot clicking banded Glacial Lance


Seeing Bundle and Cyclizar at 2-2 does give me mental pain, especially as someone who's gotten steamrolled by the former on far too many occasions and has recently come to absolutely despise the latter in pretty much everywhere, but hey, at least they're absolutely on your radar.

The funniest use of Fillet Away I saw was someone running Fillet Away Espeon, who insisted on pressing it in the face of Substitute Roaring Moon, then proceeded to get one shot by Ceaseless Edge right after.

I think it'd be a shame to lose Gigaton (funny instakill button + Steel kinda mid), but I am not at all opposed to Shift Gear's ban. That shit is wack, and every time I see a steel type I realize the impending doom as Kingambit suddenly has an 80 bp Power Trip, whoops it Terastalized, now is immune to headlong rush, and now it's got a 140 bp Power Trip and is at +2/+4

Sleep Moves Clause

I presume Sleep Moves Clause (Since I can't find any source for this anywhere, google search be damned) means that mons who don't naturally learn Sleep-inducing moves can't use them? (Ex. Lilligant-Hisui wouldn't get Spore, Farigiraf wouldn't get Hypnosis, etc) Asking since I wanted to make a post on potential for Hisuian forms.

 

[Ducky]

I presume Sleep Moves Clause (Since I can't find any source for this anywhere, google search be damned) means that mons who don't naturally learn Sleep-inducing moves can't use them? (Ex. Lilligant-Hisui wouldn't get Spore, Farigiraf wouldn't get Hypnosis, etc) Asking since I wanted to make a post on potential for Hisuian forms.

Sleep Moves Clause means all Sleep-inducing moves are banned, even on Pokemon who naturally learn them

 

[Giagantic]

Post-Extremespeed / Last Respests team, this team I went, after adjustments, 10-0 with and felt it was good enough to post since it has some interesting sets. The Meta is definitely much better but I am sure more adjustments will be needed in time but for now here is the team.
_________________________

Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Salt Cure
- Stone Axe
- Body Press
- Recover
Typical lead, Garganacl is a strong physical tank that combines the utility of an attacking SR, Salt Cure Spam, Body Press, and reliable recovery in a package. Tera Fairy is useful for turning matchups on their head, however, Tera Water can be used to counteract different matchups.
_________________________

Azumarill @ Leftovers
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Jet Punch
- Surging Strikes
- Hyper Drill
- Swords Dance
It is the premiere priority sweeper and just general breaker of Pokemon, it is insanely strong even with the banishment of Extremespeed and should be amply prepared for lest you like getting swept. Tera Water is used because it bolsters the priority spam even further however, I suppose you could run other more defensive options if you want to do some surprise type changes.
_________________________

Baxcalibur @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Thermal Exchange
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Glacial Lance
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
- Swords Dance
Extremely strong, Lance will dent virtually everything, EQ gives further coverage to threaten some of the checks / counters that try to come in, namely Toxapex. It is built to be bulky in order to act as a check to Iron Bundle and to utilize it's innate 115 hp and decent defenses. SD allows it to threaten walls and Ice Shard is your priority of choice to tackle faster threats.
_________________________

Skeledirge @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Torch Song
- Infernal Parade
- Will-O-Wisp
- Slack Off
Added to team to handle fighting types like Iron Hands and Iron Valiant, can act as a bulky sweeper on top of applying status every which way whether that be through Wisp or Infernal Parade.
_________________________

Toxapex @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Dire Claw
- Mortal Spin
- Clear Smog
- Flip Turn
A strong pivot that compounds multiple different roles from hazard clear, status applicator, and sweeper neutralizer. Toxapex only really struggles against steel types that are immune to three quarters of it's kit and can only pivot to others as a response. Be careful to not let it be set-up fodder for a shift-gear sweeper.
_________________________

Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Mirror Armor
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Power Trip
- Gigaton Hammer
- Shift Gear
- Roost
The Creme-de-la-Creme of the team, the heat bulky sweeper set that has the benefit of being able to tank and surprise foes that don't expect the whomping of a giant hammer or the potent combination of shift gear and power trip together. This set is very easy to use and sweeps teams very effectively.
_________________________
https://pokepast.es/e25cd6bcd95bce02

 

[drampa's grandpa]

The time has come! This ugly little graffiti artist has become not just viable but a major pain.

Grafaiai @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Ghost / Dark / Whatever, you won't be using it as your Tera
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Revival Blessing
- Parting Shot
- Encore / Taunt
- Knock Off

Prankster Revival Blessing is horrific. This idiot can revive 2 Pokemon in each and every match with +1 Priority. Besides that it has a wide movepool from its Normal/Poison typing which it can abuse with Prankster including Encore, Glare, Court Change, Transform, Toxic, and Rapid/Mortal Spin, as well as Parting Shot and Taunt just because it gets them.

Other abusers of Revival Blessing are likely to be our resident Shed Tail spammer, Cyclizar, and possibly Sylveon and BlissChansey, depending on the type of team. However Grafaiai has the advantage of Prankster making it seem custom built for this job.

How long will this move last in the metagame? We'll see!
EDIT: byebye

 

[Giagantic]

Okay, since I want Revival Blessing YEETED out of the metagame ASAP, I figure wynaut proliferate it's usage a tad! Here are some sets that include Revival Blessing!
_________________________
Cyclizar @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Rapid Spin
- Revival Blessing
- Shed Tail
More reasons to hate this stupid lizard, fast, annoying, and now a necromancer!
_________________________
Arboliva @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Apple Acid
- Revival Blessing
- Recover
Think this was mentioned somewhere but it is pretty much a near infinite revives for however long you can keep it alive. It's bulk is pretty good so it really all comes down to how you bring it into play that decides how potent it can be. EV's are entirely to your team's discretion as it can do mixed, or focused defensive EVs or even bulky Offensive with its good SPA.
_________________________
Sylveon @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Boomburst
- Rapid Spin
- Revival Blessing
- Recover
Really any Eeveelution can pull this off but obviously Sylveon is best due to it's actual offensive presence due to Boomburst and Pixelate compared to the generally passive Umbreon or Vaporean.
_________________________
Azumarill @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Jet Punch
- Surging Strikes
- Revival Blessing
- Swords Dance
The heat set I made that is extremely easy to use, it combines the lethality of water stab Azumarill with the sheer utility of Revival Blessing. It is more easily wall-able but the utility makes up for this as Azumarill excels at forcing switches into Pokemon like toxapex which is a free Revival Blessing moment.
_________________________

 

[in the hills]

Chi-Yu and Iron Bundle have been banned! Revival Blessing and Shift Gear have been restricted!​

Another ban slate following the release of Revival Blessing and spending some more time focusing on our previous watchlist!
Chi-Yu and Iron Bundle
Chi-Yu and Iron Bundle are our first Pokemon bans since the very early bans of Dragapult and Flutter Mane. While we were focusing primarily on moves early on, there's been a few Pokemon on our radar, and these two in particular stood out for their lack of switchins. Chi-Yu's ability lowering Special Defense makes even the fattest special walls fall to it and if you don't have Tyranitar on your team you're pretty much forced to make 50/50 decisions at best or severely chunk your offensive switchin. Iron Bundle was a similar case to having next to no switchins, while packing a Speed tier that limited offensive counterplay dramatically. Without Blissey or powerful enough priority on your team, Iron Bundle was near guaranteed a kill every time it switched in, between Specs Water Spout sets and just 3a Taunt sets there's just no reliable counterplay available for this Pokemon.

Revival Blessing
The introduction of Revival Blessing properly working recently has been a pretty big impact on the metagame, I'm sure people looking back on this a few years from now are gonna be thinking "how tf did Revival Blessing last for 3 weeks into the meta?" It's no shock that this move when coupled with multiple good users can create very uncompetitive situations, and there's a few Pokemon that have a relatively easy time using the move more than once. While Revival Blessing doesn't feel entirely uncompetitive, having easy access to reviving your Pokemon puts a huge advantage on the team with the move to make aggressive plays with next to no risk.

Shift Gear vs Gigaton Hammer
As I mentioned in my last post, we did want to take a closer look at Steel-types and get to the bottom of what, if anything, was making them overpowered. Shift Gear and Gigaton Hammer were the obvious targets, as specific Steel-types have not felt overwhelming in the slightest. Ultimately, we did land on the agreement that the issue is... probably both? For now, we unanimously agreed that Shift Gear on its own is enabling Steel-types to be overwhelming more than anything else, and with the rise of fatter setup like Shift Gear Corviknight on top of the more offensive options like Iron Treads, Scizor, Kingambit, Bisharp, and others we think Shift Gear's time has run out. As for Gigaton Hammer, we're going to continue to assess its effect on the metagame without Shift Gear enabling sweepers (time to whip out those SD Bisharp/Kingambit wooo!!)

Vote​	Fc​	fissure​	in the hills​	LBDC​	RESULT:​
Chi-Yu​	DNB​	BAN​	BAN​	ABS​	BAN (2-1-1)​
Cyclizar​	DNB​	DNB​	ABS​	BAN​	DNB (1-2-1)​
Iron Bundle​	BAN​	BAN​	BAN​	BAN​	BAN (4-0)​
Gigaton Hammer​	DNR​	ABS​	ABS​	RESTRICT​	DNR (1-1-2)​
Revival Blessing​	RESTRICT​	RESTRICT​	RESTRICT​	RESTRICT​	RESTRICT (4-0)​
Shift Gear​	RESTRICT​	RESTRICT​	RESTRICT​	RESTRICT​	RESTRICT (4-0)​

We have a few council shifts with this vote, first off I'd like to welcome Fissure to the council again! Glad to have you :) Also, pannu has stepped down from council, thanks for all of the help with the tier over this year!

Shifting Gears a little, I feel decently confident this will be our last bigger ban slate for a bit, so we're going to work on finalizing our initial Viability List and hopefully get some other resources out ASAP! That's all for now, thanks!

Tagging Kris to implement Chi-Yu & Iron Bundle bans and Revival Blessing & Shift Gear restrictions

 

[Giagantic]

Here is my personal preliminary Viability list, sorted into High Viability, Medium Viability, and Low Viability.

High Viability (No Particular Order)
The Rock type that defied it's typings history rising to the top due to great defensive stat line, access to various rock moves and reliable recovery
Alongside Corviknight it is one of the premiere defensive pivots and hazard removal, and a necessary element to handle Azumarill / Palafin
Terrifying monster with powerful access to Dark movepool, Steel movepool and great general bulk
A Nightmare
Scary pokemon that pulls off Mixed, physical and special sets the best, very hard to confidently wall
Pivot, Tank, and Defogger extraordinaire
Jet Punch and Normal Pool access are just that good
Surging Strikes bolsters an already scary pokemon to new levels
Normal Pool utility, access to restricted Shed Tail, Boomburst for some kick
Dragon Dance, Headlong Rush, Glaive Rush, Shore Up ... Need I say more...
Gains Double Shock which when combined with Tera Electric make for a potent combination on top of access to Mach Punch
Access to reliable heal makes it a powerful bulky Pokemon with great dual stabs
Access to reliable heal, and packs a wallop with Gigaton Hammer
Great Tank and hazard setup with access to SR and Offensive Spikes in the move Ceaseless Edge and Shore up access
Access to strong Water/Flying Stabs and DD on top of roost and Moxie make it a potent sweeper

Medium Viability (No Particular Order)
Unaware, Heals, access to Rage Fist and infernal Parade are great
Torch Song + Scarf is extremely potent
Scary dual stabs with access to DD and SD but still relatively slow
Inferior Toxapex but still brings with it a lot of potential as a regen mon with hazard clear, status spread, and heals
THE definitive sun setter
Normal type pool utility + Boomburst Pixelate power
access to a bunch of new psychic moves like Lumina Crash and re-access to Teleport + Chilly Reception
access to a bunch of new psychic moves like Lumina Crash and re-access to Teleport
Plenty of Builds to operate with and access to Dragon Ascent
Doesn't gain a ton but is still Gholdengo and does gain Infernal Parade and is surprisingly decent with Rage Fist (because it is OP)
Normal Type utility and immensely scary Transform
Lack of Recovery but stronger offensive presence
Performs similarly to last gen but now has to compete with Garganacl

Low Viability (No Particular Order)
Requires Tera to gain decent coverage
Sun dependent Sweeper
Prankster Shenanigans only goes so far when the bulk of the mons is pitiful
Doodle still requires a whole turn to use in which Slaking does nothing and resets upon switchout
Sticky Web + Tinted Lens Pivot
Abundance of Physical Attackers and relatively few special attackers many of which have SE moves versus it results in low rank
(It's Ditto aka only as strong as what it transforms into)
Requires Tera to be actually good defensively

If I missed some (I know I have) let me know. This list is just based on my experience and may differ from yours.

 

[in the hills]

The official STABmons Viability List is here! Check it out:
Top
Chien-Pao
Garganacl
Toxapex

High
Azumarill
Annihilape
Corviknight
Cyclizar
Dragonite
Garchomp
Gholdengo
Iron Hands
Iron Treads
Iron Valiant
Kingambit
Palafin
Roaring Moon
Rotom-Wash
Skeledirge
Slither Wing
Ting-Lu
Tyranitar

Mid
Alomomola
Amoonguss
Baxcalibur
Bisharp
Blissey
Chansey
Clodsire
Cloyster
Ditto
Gengar
Glimmora
Great Tusk
Grimmsnarl
Gyarados
Houndstone
Lokix
Meowscarada
Mimikyu
Rotom-Heat
Salamence
Scizor
Slowking
Sylveon
Volcarona
Wo-Chien

Low/Undefined
Barraskewda
Brambleghast
Ceruledge
Dondozo
Drednaw
Espathra
Gastrodon
Hatterene
Hawlucha
Heracross
Hippowdon
Hyrdreigon
Indeedee-F
Iron Jugulis
Iron Moth
Leafeon
Magnezone
Mudsdale
Orthworm
Pawmot
Pelipper
Pincurchin
Quagsire
Quaquaval
Sandy Shocks
Scovillain
Slaking
Slowbro
Torkoal
Umbreon
Vaporeon

We will be working on adding some more resources soon, particularly Sample Sets, Sample Teams, and Speed Tiers. That's all for now, thanks!

 

[drampa's grandpa]

The official STABmons Viability List is here! Check it out:
Top
Chien-Pao
Garganacl
Toxapex

High
Azumarill
Annihilape
Corviknight
Cyclizar
Dragonite
Garchomp
Gholdengo
Iron Hands
Iron Treads
Iron Valiant
Kingambit
Palafin
Roaring Moon
Rotom-Wash
Skeledirge
Slither Wing
Ting-Lu
Tyranitar

Mid
Alomomola
Amoonguss
Baxcalibur
Bisharp
Blissey
Chansey
Clodsire
Cloyster
Ditto
Gengar
Glimmora
Great Tusk
Grimmsnarl
Gyarados
Houndstone
Lokix
Meowscarada
Mimikyu
Rotom-Heat
Salamence
Scizor
Slowking
Sylveon
Volcarona
Wo-Chien

Low/Undefined
Barraskewda
Brambleghast
Ceruledge
Dondozo
Drednaw
Espathra
Gastrodon
Hatterene
Hawlucha
Heracross
Hippowdon
Hyrdreigon
Indeedee-F
Iron Jugulis
Iron Moth
Leafeon
Magnezone
Mudsdale
Orthworm
Pawmot
Pelipper
Pincurchin
Quagsire
Quaquaval
Sandy Shocks
Scovillain
Slaking
Slowbro
Torkoal
Umbreon
Vaporeon

We will be working on adding some more resources soon, particularly Sample Sets, Sample Teams, and Speed Tiers. That's all for now, thanks!

So Far Above The Top That He Was Banished
FREE MY BOI

I don't agree with everything on this list, so I will post what I disagree with.

Cyclizar

While it may be a high honor, I believe Cyclizar to be one of the top Pokemon in the metagame. The reason for this is pretty much purely its utility as a Shed Tail abuser, but when a move is as broken as Shed Tail and the abuser is as tailor made to abuse the move as Cyclizar it doesn't need much more than that.

At the current moment powerful wallbreakers have become the norm in the metagame, with fewer but still powerful setup sweepers compared to previous incarnations of Gen 9 STAB. Cyclizar provides multiple safe opportunities for Pokemon such as Chien-Pao, Palafin, and Iron Hands to set up or just murder stuff. It's a near necessity for any offensive team, and every Pokemon in this metagame needs to be prepared for behind a Sub.


I'm not sure I can push for these up to Mid because they all only fit on one playstyle, but IMO that playstyle is really good right now, and it won't necessarily stay that way. Shift Gear's ban really helped out the Chlorophyll boosters, especially since there isn't much priority sun can run. Give Sun a try!

Add this idiot to low. It fits on sun, and is a pain to switch into. It's a Chi-Yu replacement, because Chi-Yu was broken on Sun ;-; It has a better matchup versus Ground-Type Pokemon such as Great Tusk than Iron Moth, as well as hitting harder thanks to Solar Power.

I'm a little confused about the placement of Alomomola and Toxapex, but I'm not sure I can fully disagree. My main question about Toxapex is whether a physically defensive or AV set is primarily what got it into top. I've been finding AV more effective, but there's also very little that you need it for on this list. Alomomola is just far too passive. Besides the huge wishes it's sad. It lost Toxic and Knock Off this generation and really can't handle that. Is it in mid for Chien-Pao? Purely for Wish support? Because I love it too much anyway and spend my time talking about WishFish?


What on Orth does this thing do? It's the worse Shed Tail user in pretty much every way. Just use Lagging Tail Cyclizar if you're that desperate to be slow honestly.

Slaking

I stand by Slaking being unviable and a noob trap. Here are some cooler Normal types to abuse!

Normals

Tidy Up Braviary
Braviary (M) @ Life Orb / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tidy Up
- Close Combat
- Dragon Ascent
- Explosion

A one-shot setup Pokemon that breaks pretty much anything or dies trying, then explodes. Loves Tidy Up, hates Garganacl. Partners well with Cyclizar, but what doesn't? You can also use Staraptor with a very similar set which I'm not gonna bother posting, you can figure it out.


Ursaring @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Tidy Up
- Hyper Drill
- Close Combat
- Crunch

Ursaring @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum / Swords Dance
- Quick Attack
- Facade
- Crunch / Quick Attack

I want to be clear, I don't think these are the greatest sets ever. But they're better than Slaking because they don't a) absolutely require the turn of setup and b) are able to be in a better place after that single turn. The only things Slaking has is bulk and a higher ceiling for power.

 

[in the hills]

With the STAB Kickoff tour over, I figured I'd share some of my thoughts on the metagame as well as some sets/teams I've been using.

General Thoughts
For the most part, I actually love the state of the metagame, pretty much everything about it feels fast paced but open to defensive niches, while having enough really strong threats to have pretty strong variety in teams. The hazard game created by the introduction of moves like Ceaseless Edge, Stone Axe, Mortal Spin, and Tidy Up as well as new Pokemon that have warped things as well like Gholdengo almost completely stopping hazard control and new removal options with Great Tusk and Iron Treads have really made the metagame feel so much different from the slow paced slogs of late gen 8 stab. Defensive Pokemon like Garganacl, Skeledirge, Ting-Lu, etc. have really eased my worries I had going into the generation that anything defensive not named Toxapex would suck, though I do think for a defensive Pokemon to be good in this metagame it's almost required for them to have pivoting and/or some form of setup/something that makes them less passive. Good defensive Pokemon thrive in this metagame as a good deal of the more frail offensive teams crumble to them.

Tera
Personally, I love the introduction of Tera in gen 9 for the most part. While some breakers are a bit much with it, I haven't encountered much issues from offensive Pokemon using Tera that aren't already arguably broken in the first place. However, I have had great success in exploring the defensive and utility aspects of Tera and its one of the reasons I find Bulky Offense so potent in this metagame, as seen in replays like this and this. The ability to have your defensive Pokemon adjust to the opposing team's breakers at any point in the match is insanely understated in the discussions around Tera and is what makes Tera largely seem like a skill-based gimmick to me. I think unsure situations around Tera are something us OM players have been dealing with for generations now and the more I play with it the more it feels like any other aspect of the game. If there's anything that I have felt is unhealthy about Tera, it's already strong sweepers like Chien-Pao and Specs Iron Valiant using same-type Tera to boost their already high BP STABs to new levels, but those two fall under the 'arguably broken in their own right' category I mentioned earlier. I'm not entirely opposed to tiering action on Tera, but I think it'd be a shame to not give this mechanic a fair chance more than just a month while so many probable broken Pokemon are in the tier still and for the time being my stance on it would be DNB.

Chien-Pao
Chien-Pao is #1 or #2 on most people's lists for being broken, and looking at it it's not hard to understand why. Being crazy strong and fast is very difficult to deal with, and the added moves it gets in the metagame makes it even harder when it can set Spikes or remove your item pretty easily. While I personally don't really find it that broken, I do understand calls for it to be banned. I find it decently manageable with such an oversaturation of Fighting and Water-types in the metagame that provide pretty consistent offensive and defensive checks to it, as well as just popular Pokemon like Garganacl and Skeledirge being able to beat it if they use their Tera/play around it properly. I think banning Chien-Pao would ultimately only be a positive for the metagame so I'm generally open to tiering action on it despite my lack of troubles dealing with it.

Cyclizar
Cyclizar HO is pretty potent in the metagame right now due to how well Cyclizar is at passing Substitute. I honestly don't have much of an opinion on this one since I've found it to be pretty inconsistent when facing it and just good while using it myself, but I've heard some people call to ban/suspect it and am curious what others think.

Gholdengo
Personally, this is probably the most unhealthy thing for the metagame right now in conjunction with Ceaseless Edge (as much as I love using them ;-;). Simply put, not only is this too good at blocking hazard removal due to being immune to Defog, Mortal Spin, and Rapid Spin (big reason Great Tusk and Iron Treads are probably the best removal we have behind Toxapex tbh), it's also an insanely potent setup sweeper due to using so many Pokemon as setup fodder due to its amazing typing and ability. Make It Rain is an amazing STAB move and choosing between Shadow Ball and Infernal Parade isn't a difficult choice since both are really good as well, personally I usually go Infernal Parade to get Toxapex and Ting-Lu burnt when they switch in. If Gholdengo wasn't so good at blocking hazards it might be fine, but when paired with Ceaseless Edge mons it's really easy to keep hazards on the field long term with this on your team in a pretty unhealthy way.

Moves (Gigaton Hammer, Ceaseless Edge, Dire Claw, Triple Arrows, etc.)
Another thing I'm interested in hearing people's thoughts on in the current metagame is what moves people feel are too strong at the moment. I think some moves may be a bit unhealthy for the metagame due to their secondary effects, but discussion on this has been pretty minimal and I'd want to hear more from others before deciding anything. I can definitely see there being an argument for moves like Dire Claw and Triple Arrows being too RNG reliant/having too good of secondary effects, while Gigaton Hammer was previously on the watchlist and Ceaseless Edge ties into the hazard game I've been talking about throughout this post.

That's really all I wanted to talk about regarding the metagame, I think there's probably more to talk about like how good some mons like Specs Valiant or Toxapex are right now but that can wait for a later post. Here's my team dump from the kickoff tour:
Band Roaring Moon
Going Ape
Double Hands
Ditto Hands... is that the same name as Double Hands?
The Dirge feat. Specs Valiant
Bullshit (it's not shit neat mon tbh)
Fat Grounds are fun
Salty HO
I got into a pretty clear groove when building but hey it worked

Was going to post some sets but it's dinner time and I wanna get this post out, we are open to sample set suggestions right now though! Would love some help in the effort to get analyses open soon

 

[LBDC]

Gm, STABmons players!

Team drop time :)

(click on sprites to have the pokepast)

I wanted to build a HO. After trying Greak Tusk as a lead (see below), switched to Glimmora; it is a good lead because it has Toxic Debris and Stone Axe. Ceruledge is a good sweeper: Sash + Weak Armor (+ Rage Fist) works well, kinda powerful. Scizor bring in the steel-type capabilities, with LO Bullet Punch. Yeah it is easily a mid-tier Pokémon, even after the Shift Gear ban. Iron Valiant is fully physical, which I have found satisfying. Not sure why everyone else is so on board about special Valiant. Sandy Shocks is a bit slow but it is a great Electric-type wallbreaker, better than Iron Hands. This is because its Ground-STAB lets it to actually damage Electric-resistant foes like Garchomp and Iron Heads.



My original HO attempt. Kinda good but use the other team, please. Tried Great Tusk as a suicide lead as I saw potential with good Speed/Taunt/Hazards. I think it is OK-ish but it is far from dominant; not sure if a set including Rapid Spin can be worth. Roaring Moon CB is good, at least way better than DD, but frankly I think Dragonite is currently the superior Choice Band Dragon-type. U-turn is good, though. Gholdengo is super good Pokémon that is perfect; not too powerful yet very versatile (I have to try the Scarf Trick set that I have seen!). Iron Hands is a good Pokémon but I regret that I used it here. It ended up being too often way too slow. It fits better in balance structures.



Tried Brute Bonnet, I don't think anyone else has tried it so far. I ran Grav Apple / Knock / Sucker Punch / Close Combat. I'd say that it is not very strong; both its speed and bad defensive typing are detrimental to its success. I guess it is still viable, just not very high..? I don't know. Rest of the team is pretty standard, with CorviToxa as the premier defensive core. Prepare for it! I found out that Annihilape Choice Scarf is a good speed control tool but Triple Arrows flinch chance is ridiculous. Uncompetitive y/y?




Both teams are built before Iron Bundle ban, and the Iron Treads of the last team was originally Shift Gear. They're both cool, but underwhelming. Drag-mag was a concept I looked into, but Dragonite is really the only good abuser; Roaring Moon just DD and do nothing until it phazed away by Ting-Lu. On the other hand, Rotom-Wash team can work; you setup the Electric Terrain, volt to Iron Moth/Valiant/Treads and use your moves from there. It is very funny that I was able to beat Toxapex with Iron Moth, using Electric Terrain, Torch Song boost, and Discharge, something present-time Volcarona would dream to.

Just to respond to a few ITH points:

Tera

Hey I... actually agree with what you said. For me it felt genuinely no too strong..? We (STABmons playerbase) have to learn how to play better w/ tera, in which case using it, what types are the better. I won't go into the specific because I feel I won't explain well.

Chien-Pao

Very good Pokémon. What I found to most frustrating is how fast this thing is: 135 speed is like the fastest thing we have currently, and it has both Sucker and Ice Shard against any revenge sweeper. As such, revenge killing this guy is hard (yes, this is one of the reasons why I like Scizor in HO builds). Another bad time I have against it, is when I found that it is Choice Band and it does like 65% to my Toxapex with Knock Off... That being said, Glacial Lance is somewhere around in the whole picture too, I'm not sure where but it part of why it is so good.

Definitely favorable to a tiering action but not sure by which way (quickban/suspect/forum survey/???) I kind of believe we (STAB council) should seek ways to involve the playerbase so we should keep the door open to a suspect, if there's support for it of course.

Gholdengo

That's the first time I see Gholdengo being called broken honestly. There two issues here that get mixed in a single Pokémon: sweeping potential and the stack hazards. The NP set felt balanced to me. However I do want to say that it is mainly because I found it easy to revenge kill it. There is a lot of Pokémon that outspeed it and can hit it hard / OHKO (Roaring Moon / Sandy Shocks / Iron Moth / Chien-Pao ofc for OHKO; if Gholdengo is weaken then Knock Off Iron Valiant can KO it too). The ability to block hazards however... definitely would keep a eye on it, wait if durable, reliable vs Gholdengo, Defog / Spin users emerge (Greak Tusk ftw??). Wouldn't ban it for the time being, though.

Moves (Gigaton Hammer, Ceaseless Edge, Dire Claw, Triple Arrows, etc.)

For context, here is a few lines in council chat, only from myself, about the subject of move:

Hide

(was written before Shift Gear ban, I'll say that now I'm little more moderate on the brokenness of Hammer without Shift Gear; still not good for the metagame)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9stabmons-1743176606-uau0uackiz2heiw3xd90ba02amdo2v9pw the replay in question (low ladder yeah)

My opinion on these two moves hasn't changed. Dire Claw is on a similar boat but IMO, we have to wait to see if it being abused by somebody. GameFreak did after all release Covert Cloak, which is a fairly decent item now, but I'm afraid to think it not good enough, because opportunity cost and you can use Knock Off / Corrosive Gas after all.

Now, speaking of moves, I'd also watchlist some other moves for brokenness, too, including but not limited to:

• Glacial Lance (if Chien-Pao doesn't get the boot)
• Magical Torque / Headlong Rush / Precipice Blades (too good offensive types)
• Lumina Crash
• Torch Song (mayybe) (it's fine when it is only on Skeledirge, super slow user, but on every single Fire-types it is more a problem)
• Rage Fist (very unsold on it)

All these moves feel partially broken to me in some ways to me, either by having too much raw power on too many users or by having insane secondary effects. At this point, I feel the need to repeat that this post only represent my personal view and not the STABmons council or anyone else. This list of a product of my own.

Now... a little set to conclude this post... Have a great day!

Sableye @ Covert Cloak 
Ability: Prankster 
Tera Type: Steel 
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD 
Careful Nature 
- Bulk Up 
- Rage Fist 
- Taunt 
- Recover

Upon realizing that Rage Fist was, in fact, available to every Ghost-type Pokémon, I immediately tried to abuse it... and I came up with this.

The plan is simple. First, eliminate any Normal-type like Cyclizar and Ursaring in the opposing type, otherwise you'll get walled to death. Secondly, find a setup opportunity, and use Prankster-boosted Bulk Up until an adequate number of boost is accumulated. You may have to use Taunt against Haze Toxapex to prevent it from removing your boost. Note that Toxapex can't use Mortal Spin to poison it, thanks to Covert Cloak. Similarly, you can use Taunt against a physical attacker to prevent it from boosting too much. Rage Fist power will increase. And then, using the ridiculous power of Rage Fist and your defense boost, you can sweep the opposing team! Sableye can use Tera Steel to avoid OHKO from faster Fairy-type Pokémon that could OHKO it, like Sylveon.

This is far from broken because it relies on setup to tank hits and if the opposent if smart they will keep their Normal-type to block Sableye. Whirlwind Ting-Lu can also phaze it, unless Sableye is the last Pokémon. Ideally, you want to have Cyclizar in your team. Well, yes hits that are taken by the sub aren't factored in Rage Fist power; however that'll give Sableye a easier time to setup at least one Bulk Up behind the sub, or more if the opposing Pokémon can't break the sub.

Thanks for reading!

 

[Giagantic]

Okay, time to get the ball rolling in Stabmons, here are a bunch of sets that I've found very effective!

Hide

Gholdengo @ Leftovers
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 196 SpA / 60 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Infernal Parade
- Make It Rain
- Nasty Plot
- Recover

Hide

Toxapex @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Mortal Spin
- Scald / Clear Smog
- Flip Turn
- Recover

Toxapex @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Mortal Spin
- Scald / Dire Claw
- Clear Smog
- Flip Turn

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Dragonite @ Choice Band
Ability: Multiscale
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 160 HP / 252 Atk / 96 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Glaive Rush
- Earthquake
- Extreme Speed

Hide

Iron Valiant @ Choice Specs
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Fleur Cannon
- Psyshock
- Vacuum Wave

Hide

Scream Tail @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Lumina Crash
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind
- Moonlight

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Chien-Pao @ Life Orb
Ability: Sword of Ruin
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Glacial Lance
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch / Ice Shard
- Ice Shard / Swords Dance

Hide

Cyclizar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
- Shed Tail

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Cloyster @ Focus Sash
Ability: Skill Link
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 112 HP / 252 SpA / 144 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Origin Pulse
- Freeze-Dry
- Water Shuriken
- Shell Smash

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Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Salt Cure
- Stone Axe
- Body Press
- Recover

Hide

Iron Hands @ Leftovers
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Double Shock / Volt Tackle
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Swords Dance

Iron Hands @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Double Shock
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Belly Drum

Hide

Azumarill @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Huge Power
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Jet Punch
- Surging Strikes
- Hyper Drill
- Belly Drum

Azumarill @ Leftovers
Ability: Huge Power
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Jet Punch
- Surging Strikes
- Hyper Drill
- Swords Dance

Hide

Skeledirge @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Infernal Parade
- Torch Song
- Will-O-Wisp
- Slack Off

Hide

Kingambit @ Leftovers
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Gigaton Hammer
- Knock Off
- Bullet Punch
- Swords Dance

 

[pannu]

i would like to talk about a few mons and moves i think should be banned or restricted, a pretty low effort post because this is just my ramblings mostly trying to figure out why sv stab doesnt click with me as much as ss did.


The main offender for being broken in the tier at the moment is Gholdengo. Personally its my most used Pokemon in the tier so far, and thats for a good reason. I believe that in the current metagame, Gholdengo enables hazard stack teams to an unhealthy degree.

Gholdengo being able to block every form of hazard removal, thanks to GaG and its ability and beating every Pokemon that commonly uses removal (Bar great tusk, who you either lure with tera or outlive idunno why i dont see many people use Shore Up on tusk, its great on it imo) is what makes hazard teams too strong and creates and unhealthy, boring, and stale meta. I dont know how many people share this thought but in my experience hazards are incredibly overwhelming rn. When i build i find there to be very little reason to not use Gholdengo + Hazards. Theres a plethora of ways you can do this, with hazards being more widely distributed this gen, however i would like to mention dual hazard Garchomp, and Stealth Rock setter + Ceaseless Edge Chien-Pao as two very viable cores with it. Basically any team ive used and consideded serious (bar some cyclizar cheese HO, more on that guy later) has featured Gholdengo, a great tusk check, 2 hazard setters, and x amount of bonkers breakers/set up sweepers that take advantage of hazards being perma up. Hazards are so easy to get up and basically never go down, its a stupid meta and i dont think dengo being around is good for it.

Its very easy to put Gholdengo on a team as it has a plethora of viable sets and fantastic defensive utility. Personally i mostly see Choice Scarf and Offensive NP sets, but ive also explored PhysDef NP, which has amazing defensive utility (and also beats clodsire 1v1 lol) and Defensive utility sets (mostly used to spam para / check iron valiant). Its an immense threat offensively because of its high-power STABs and access to perfect coverage.

I dont know how many people agree with my take that Gholdengo is overwhelming and hazardstack is the best playstyle in the meta, so im gonna drop some Gholdengo hazard teams so that people can use them and form their own opinion on the matter:








The other broken in the tier ATM is Cyclizar, to me, Cyclizar just enables HO too much and specifically cheese set up mons like Dragonite, Cloyster, Annihilape, Volcarona and Chien-pao. Shed Tail takes advantage of the current Hyper-Offensive (note: im not saying HO is the meta im saying the meta is super duper insanely offensively oriented) to a very silly degree, as Shed Tail into a set up sweeper that is good against whatever you opponent has out at the given moment can often end games on the spot. Furthermore, Shed Tail + Regen is just a silly combination and with the insane amount of viable support options its got (encore, uturn, rapid spin, boomburst, overheat, taunt, u-turn, draco, etc etc) make it able to fulfill a plethora of diffrent roles on whatever offense you wanna run, personally ive been liking scarf w/ encore as a failsafe against opposing set up sweepers and taunt + sitrus as a lead on HO. I dont think that playing against or with cyclizar teams is particularly fun or competetive so it should be banned




This thing has NO switch ins at all oh my god also its like the only actually good ceaseless user cuz it can afford to run both it and knock so like u knock all switch ins get up a layer or two and just kill everything dear GOD this thing is not okay please ban it asap

 

[Giagantic]

Nominating Chien-Pao for Quick Ban

This pokemon is insane in Stabmons having gained moves like Glacial Lance, Knock Off, Ceaseless Edge, and Parting Shot. It is so insane that counterplay is nearly impossible outside of sacking something in the hopes that you can scare it off with some form of priority that one shots it (usually Mach Punch or Bullet Punch). This post will prove to you all that Chien-Pao needs immediate action.

First off, when it comes to counterplay there are only 3 Pokemon that can safely switch into Chien-Pao, Azumarill, Avalugg, and Dondozo. Of these three Azumarill is the least practical for it forces you to run an unorthodox Thick Fat, max HP, max Def set which is the height of coping with something from my perspective. Avalugg is a niche pick and is able to take most of what Chien-Pao doles out, however, it can be heavily pressured after having it's Heavy Duty Boots Knocked Off and takes a moderate amount of damage from Sacred Sword. Lastly, there is Dondozo whom takes half health from Tera Dark Knock Off and around 30% from Knock Off afterwards risking being 3hko'd if not running rest.

(Edit: Tera Water Ting-Lu can tank it and is probably the best option but being forced to Tera to check something is inherently bad)

Hide

252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 226-268 (44.8 - 53.1%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 153-182 (30.3 - 36.1%) -- 46.1% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 161-190 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 148-177 (37.5 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Thick Fat Variant

252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Azumarill: 144-170 (35.6 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Azumarill: 66-78 (16.3 - 19.3%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery

Huge Power Variant

252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 192-227 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 208-246 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As can be seen from the calc's every single Pokemon barring Thick Fat Azumarill is heavily pressured by Chien-Pao regardless whereas Azumarill is forced to run a weak coping set just to live.

Every other tank in the game is at minimum 2hko'd on the switch, Toxapex, 2hko'd with Tera Dark Knock Off, Ting-Lu, 2hko'd by Glacial Lance, Corviknight, 2hko'd by Glacial Lance or Knock Off...

Hide

252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ting-Lu: 398-471 (77.4 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 187-221 (61.5 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 125-148 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

As shown, there basically isn't any effective and viable counter to Chien-Pao, at best there is coping solutions but even then you are losing a potential team member to run a niche set or pokemon. This means that at minimum a Chien-Pao should score 1 kill per switch in and the only response after that point is to bring in something that can either survive a hit to revenge kill it or force it out due to priority from a fighting type (Mach Punch or Vacuum Wave) or Choice Band Dragonite with Tera Normal Extreme Speed. This is not balanced, it is inherently broken.

I hope with this post that the council acts as quickly as possible to ban Chien-Pao.

 

[Ducky]

Nominating Chien-Pao for Quick Ban

This pokemon is insane in Stabmons having gained moves like Glacial Lance, Knock Off, Ceaseless Edge, and Parting Shot. It is so insane that counterplay is nearly impossible outside of sacking something in the hopes that you can scare it off with some form of priority that one shots it (usually Mach Punch or Bullet Punch). This post will prove to you all that Chien-Pao needs immediate action.

First off, when it comes to counterplay there are only 3 Pokemon that can safely switch into Chien-Pao, Azumarill, Avalugg, and Dondozo. Of these three Azumarill is the least practical for it forces you to run an unorthodox Thick Fat, max HP, max Def set which is the height of coping with something from my perspective. Avalugg is a niche pick and is able to take most of what Chien-Pao doles out, however, it can be heavily pressured after having it's Heavy Duty Boots Knocked Off and takes a moderate amount of damage from Sacred Sword. Lastly, there is Dondozo whom takes half health from Tera Dark Knock Off and around 30% from Knock Off afterwards risking being 3hko'd if not running rest.

Hide

252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 226-268 (44.8 - 53.1%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 153-182 (30.3 - 36.1%) -- 46.1% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 161-190 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 148-177 (37.5 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Thick Fat Variant

252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Azumarill: 144-170 (35.6 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Azumarill: 66-78 (16.3 - 19.3%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery

Huge Power Variant

252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 192-227 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 208-246 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As can be seen from the calc's every single Pokemon barring Thick Fat Azumarill is heavily pressured by Chien-Pao regardless whereas Azumarill is forced to run a weak coping set just to live.

Every other tank in the game is at minimum 2hko'd on the switch, Toxapex, 2hko'd with Tera Dark Knock Off, Ting-Lu, 2hko'd by Glacial Lance, Corviknight, 2hko'd by Glacial Lance or Knock Off...

Hide

252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ting-Lu: 398-471 (77.4 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 187-221 (61.5 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 125-148 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

As shown, there basically isn't any effective and viable counter to Chien-Pao, at best there is coping solutions but even then you are losing a potential team member to run a niche set or pokemon. This means that at minimum a Chien-Pao should score 1 kill per switch in and the only response after that point is to bring in something that can either survive a hit to revenge kill it or force it out due to priority from a fighting type (Mach Punch or Vacuum Wave) or Choice Band Dragonite with Tera Normal Extreme Speed. This is not balanced, it is inherently broken.

I hope with this post that the council acts as quickly as possible to ban Chien-Pao.

Gia pretty much put it perfectly but I also want to say as someone who has been playing a fair bit a stab with friends that I 100% agree. Chien pao phts an extreme amount of pressure in game and in thr builder. Also I don’t want to speak for them but I believe pannu feels similarly

 

[pannu]

Also I don’t want to speak for them but I believe pannu feels similarly

i do

To add onto gia's points, there's some stuff about pao which I haven't seen a lot of discussion on that I think pushes it further over the edge.

Firstly, and a bit of a minor point but, Chien-Pao doesn't necessarily have to run tera Dark. Personally I've run both Ghost and Poison to defensively tera against foes that would've KO'd, like Scarf Valiant or Mach Ppunch Iron Hands, to live and KO them back. Chien-Pao is still plenty strong without a Tera damage boost so this is a very real and viable option IMO.

Furthermore, it has the option to run a set with Heavy-Duty Boots alongside Ceaseless Edge and Knock Off on more fat builds, while this set doesn't have the instant breaking prowess of SD or CB Variants, it's still incredibly strong because all of its checks lose long term to knock + ceaseless, and it will outlast the few offensive checks (Scizor, Scarf Valiant, etc) due to its hazard resilience in comparison to them getting knocked off the first time they switch in and taking ceaseless damage + spikes on every turn afterwards. Also, it still has two empty move slots to run stuff like Glacial Lance, Ice Shard, Sacred Sword, etc.


This is a team I've been using where I use Chien-pao + a bunch of fat mons where chien-pao has the support to outlast and wear out all its checks long term thanks to the rest of the team being able to defensively handle them.
Edit: oops forgot to include the paste https://pokepast.es/0b5cfcdb43cf3e9f here u go xoxo

I think chien-pao should be banned because there just isn't a way to reasonably beat it, all of its checks are easy to abuse or lose in the long temr.

 

[in the hills]

Chien-Pao has been banned from STABmons!​

Following more discussion and time with Chien-Pao in the metagame, it's become more clear that it's too powerful for the metagame to handle properly. While bulky Water-types/Tera Water-types existed and could theoretically switch in once or twice, Chien-Pao could just about always gain the upper hand in the situation by chunking them heavily and/or hitting them with Knock Off/Ceaseless Edge. I'll refrain from repeating points too much since the thread already has a ton of good discussion on it, check out any of the 5 or so posts above for more reasoning. We also voted on Cyclizar in this slate following some outcries from the community, but the consensus is still that it's currently fine in the metagame.

Votes:

Pokemon	fc	fissure	in the hills	LBDC	RESULT
Chien-Pao	BAN	BAN	BAN	BAN	BAN (4-0)
Cyclizar	DNB	DNB	DNB	ABS	DNB (3-0-1)

Moving forward, we're gonna keep working on resources as the metagame settles. As far as tiering action goes, expect a survey soon to gauge opinions on things like Tera, Gholdengo, Ceaseless Edge, and others.

Tagging Kris to implement Chien-Pao's ban.

 

[pannu]

[15:33] +SBPC !: pannu remember when you told me this team was a war crime
[15:33] +SBPC !: i see what u mean
[15:33] pannuracotta: i stand by that comment.
[15:33] pannuracotta: LMAO
[15:33] +SBPC !: LMAO
[15:33] +SBPC !: pls post about this tar set on forum for me I'm too lazy
[15:34] pannuracotta: :sob:
[15:34] pannuracotta: okay
[15:34] +SBPC !: just like, paste this chat log as credit ig
[15:34] +SBPC !: but you can take partial credit for enabling me to play stab

Tyranitar @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
Tera Type: Flying / Whatever has good defensive utility
EVs: 252 HP / 144 Def / 48 SpD / 64 Spe
Impish Nature
- Salt Cure
- Knock Off
- Ceaseless Edge / Parting Shot / Whatever you feel like running
- Shore Up

Tyranitar is a rlly cool, albiet somewhat underutilized Salt Cure user other than garg, which is super cool! The main things that set it apart are its access to Ceaseless Edge, Knock Off, and Sand Stream to further wear down opposing teams alongside Salt Cure, making it incredibly irritating to beat. Salt Cure is also able to weaken usual Ttar answers like Ting-Lu, Toxapex, Corviknight, etc, making it a very threatening mon. Its not solely reliant on Salt Cure either, as its got decent defensive utility being able to check threats like Dragonite and Skeledirge, and potentially terastallizing into types to help it beat mons like Iron Valiant, Palafin, or Gholdengo. Credit goes to SBPC for coming up with this very cool set that I think needs more attention. (albiet the EV spread is mine, speed for skeledirge and the SPdef lets it live 1 Gholdengo Focus Blast from full)

 

[Voden]

Lack of Recovery but stronger offensive presence

sorry for the nitpic but, the lobster gets roost, right?


Scizor @ Leftovers
Ability: Swarm
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Adamant Nature
- Gigaton Hammer
- U-turn
- Roost
- Swords Dance / Bullet Punch

also im guessing it would run usual scizor stuff, just now w 200% more obliterations.

see also, some more sets I've been fucking around with:


Indeedee (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Psychic Surge
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Expanding Force
- Trick
- Lumina Crash / whatever

i havent seen this anywhere? ik the tier is infested w dark types, but still, its Exp. Force Indeedee, it 2hkos everything that doesnt resist it, and even some that do;
252+ SpA Indeedee Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge in Psychic Terrain: 208-246 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Indeedee Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp in Psychic Terrain: 274-324 (65.2 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Indeedee Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill in Psychic Terrain: 288-340 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

between that, scarf and priority being useless, it has no switch-ins aside from The Darks.


Muk @ Black Sludge
Ability: Poison Touch
Tera Type: Flying / Fighting / BUG
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD | 252 HP / 8 Atk / 248 SpD
Adamant / Careful Nature
- Coil
- Barb Barrage
- Drain Punch
- Fire Punch / Shadow Sneak / Baneful Bunker

Muk :) w 80% chance to poison.
gimmicky but it could stall a lot of mons common in the tier:3

and that's it for now! may do some more stuffs and things bc i can feel the STABmons brainrot setting in again

 

[Sulo]

sorry for the nitpic but, the lobster gets roost, right?

lost roost this gen, probs bc of no home transfers yet

 

[Talpr0ne]

lost roost this gen, probs bc of no home transfers yet

It's STABmons, it gets it from Scyther.

 

[Sulo]

It's STABmons, it gets it from Scyther.

Oops.

 

[Giagantic]

Oops.

When I wrote this I forgot Scizor inherits Roost from Scyther (and all flying moves), just a mistake on my part.