Resource SS UU Crown Tundra Viability Ranking Thread

Nominating :gyarados:to A

This Pokemon is a genuine threat, I think that while A- is fine, the recent games I've had involved this beast (playing as and against it) have proven to me that it's so much more than I've taken it for. It's stupidly bulky, able to come in on more than it should for free. A healthy Gyarados living a Draco Meteor from Choice Scarf Hydreigon, one of our primary speed control options, can often force some awkward situations for the Hydreigon user if they lack some other method of punishing Gyarados (contact punishing items/abilities like Rocky Helmet and Flame Body, though Moltres is getting slightly less relevant and it carries Lum Berry anyways). Coverage is also absurd on this Pokemon, with Power Whip invalidating answers like Rotom-Wash and Quagsire, and Ice Fang eliminating Salamence and Amoonguss, making it a lot harder to fit counterplay to it. I think that Moxie takes this Pokemon to a whole other level as well, in a similar fashion to Celesteela; though Celesteela is slower and weaker to Choice Scarf Hydreigon, and can run into some issues with more common Pokemon like Nihilego and both Rotom formes. Gyarados is able to snowball in the face of so many Pokemon by virtue of these traits, and I think A or maybe A+ is reflective of this.
Vouching this nomination. Gyarados is a brutal sweeper even after one DD, mainly because the things that would try to revenge kill it either lose to its coverage or can get flinched to death. In a tier with not too much speed control, Gyarados can snowball easily, even from team preview. The only things that can revenge kill it to my knowledge is Scarfers that can hit it super-effectively, such as Rotom-Wash, which is a rare Washer set anyways. Lycanroc (which is not a very good mon compared to other UU Pokemon) can also revenge kill a slightly weakened Gyarados with Accelerock. If garnering several attack boosts, Gyarados is nearly unstoppable.
 
Vouching this nomination. Gyarados is a brutal sweeper even after one DD, mainly because the things that would try to revenge kill it either lose to its coverage or can get flinched to death. In a tier with not too much speed control, Gyarados can snowball easily, even from team preview. The only things that can revenge kill it to my knowledge is Scarfers that can hit it super-effectively, such as Rotom-Wash, which is a rare Washer set anyways. Lycanroc (which is not a very good mon compared to other UU Pokemon) can also revenge kill a slightly weakened Gyarados with Accelerock. If garnering several attack boosts, Gyarados is nearly unstoppable.
I also agree, DDdos is so good it will give regieleki (due to outspeeding after 2 DD's when adamant but not sure about jolly) an actual niche (it is eternally walled by big bulky hippowdon)
 

Aqua Jet

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Hopefully for the final time, I am here to argue for Celebi's place on the VR again (i.e. I am nominating it for C rank). But I'm not just here to rehash the same old sets (i.e. the Stealth Rock user, although it is still viable!) - I have two new ones I would like everyone to consider, plus another one I believe has potential:

Thunder Wave
Celebi is among the best Pokemon available for spreading Thunder Wave, mainly because almost nothing immune to Thunder Wave (i.e. Ground-types and Thundurus-Therian) can switch into Celebi safely due to its powerful STAB Psychic- and Grass-type moves. The exception to this is :zarude:, who is not immune to Thunder Wave, but easily shrugs it off with Jungle Healing and threatens Celebi out. This makes a Rocky Helmet user or bulky Steel-type a necessary partner for Celebi to function, as these are able to switch into U-Turns for Celebi. Fortunately, :skarmory: and :cobalion: are two of the best Pokemon in the tier and do this job excellently while also appreciating Celebi soaking up Ground-, Electric-, and Water-type attacks for them. Once an opposing team is slowed down with paralysis, there are several abusers that can capitalize, but perhaps no Pokemon is scarier to take a hit from than :marowak-alola:, which happens to have great synergy with Celebi type-wise and can easily be brought in on the common :skarmory:, especially with U-Turn support. I elected to do exactly that on the paraspam team I built with Celebi:
:ss/celebi: :ss/marowak-alola: :ss/skarmory: :ss/slowking: :ss/diggersby: :ss/celesteela:

Replays

Light Screen
Celebi also makes an excellent user of Light Screen. In this case, Light Screen patches up Celebi's defensive profile and allows its offensive teammates to stay in on hits that would normally force them out. In particular, I found that Swords Dance :cobalion: makes a great recipient of Light Screen, allowing it to tank hits like :salamence:'s Flamethrower and :thundurus-therian:'s Focus Blast to set up a Swords Dance and begin to sweep. Other Pokemon that are mainly forced out by special attacks could benefit from Light Screen, too. These might include: :celesteela:, :conkeldurr: ,:crawdaunt:, :gyarados:, :keldeo:, :mamoswine:, :moltres:, and :diggersby:. The team I used for this went through a few variations, so I'll provide both:
:ss/celebi: :ss/cobalion: :ss/celesteela: :ss/chandelure: :ss/diggersby: :ss/swampert:
(weaker to hazard stacking and Hydreigon)

:ss/celebi: :ss/cobalion: :ss/togekiss: :ss/chandelure: :ss/diggersby: :ss/swampert:
(weaker to Mamoswine)​

Replays
Other Sets?
In a similar vein to Light Screen, I believe Reflect also has potential as a great last move for Celebi. Many dangerous offensive Pokemon fear strong physical hits, and Reflect grants them extra turns to set up or dish out attacks, enabling them to take out Pokemon they would not normally be able to. In particular, :azelf: appreciates Reflect support greatly, allowing it to stay in on Knock Offs and U-Turns that would normally force it out in order to set up a Nasty Plot or simply attack. Some other Pokemon that might benefit from Reflect support (due to their weaknesses/checks being primarily [to] physical attackers) include :togekiss: ,:hatterene:, :tentacruel:, :slowbro-galar:, :thundurus-therian:, :chandelure:, :moltres:, :primarina:, :nihilego:, and :hydreigon:but this is theory at this point. Making a functional team with Reflect Celebi has proven more difficult than making one with Light Screen (partially due to the overlap in weaknesses between Celebi and Pokemon that benefit from Reflect), but I plan to keep working at it.

Other Replays
These replays don't focus on the sets I mentioned above (though they do use some of the same teams), but reiterate Celebi's value as a member of a team. I feel it's important to include these since it tends to be forgotten just how valuable a team member Celebi can be and how many Pokemon it actually has a great matchup against.
I also agree with this, but on the basis of the following set:
broke your heart (Celebi) @ Leftovers / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 96 Atk / 44 Def / 56 SpD / 64 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Zen Headbutt
- Leaf Blade
- U-turn
- Recover


This is a set I theorymoned with Mystras Leoxses (I think) during UnderUsed Snake Draft II. The Attack OHKOs Choice Specs Primarina with Leaf Blade, the Defence is a dump, the Special Defence is 3HKO'd by Choice Specs Keldeo's Icy Wind, and it outpaces Scizor so you can U-turn first. This set has the unique attribute of completely stopping anything Hippowdon aims to do while also acting as an excellent pivot that can lure out Steel-types for teammates such as Chandelure and Rotom-Heat. Zen Headbutt is a RarelyUsed tech I've been using in order to surprise Crobat which would otherwise freely come in on it. It also allows Celebi to always 1v1 Amoonguss.
 
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:regieleki: -> C

litterally borderline useless mon, why use this when raikou and thundy-t exist? THey have coverage for the ground types and are good against teams on a game to game basis while this sucks on a game to game basis and will only be a rising star every blue moon. Regieleki litterally lets in hippo, exca, pert, thundy-t, mamo, and zydog every day of the week. The only reason im putting it in C is because it has utility with spin and when it does put in work it does work... but I doubt its warranted to be anything above C for the sake of it being so inconsistent i would rather use anything else
 

Aqua Jet

Stardew
is a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
why use this when raikou and thundy-t exist?
I agree with the nomination but not for this reason. Regieleki has a certain number of pros and cons that warrant its usage. For starters, it has a Substitute + Protect set that is particularly potent against offensive teams that do not have a grounded Poison-type, or ones that forgo Defog (though these are less common). The reason that this set isn't very good it because it can't run Toxic though. In addition, you could run Extreme Speed / Rapid Spin (which you do acknowledge) / Thunderbolt / Volt Switch and decimate teams with a weakened Ground-type. This set would have the niche of outspeeding and OHKOing Dragon Dance Salamence at +1 after some chip damage that could come from U-turn. It also does something that both Raikou and Thundurus-T cannot -- lure in Ground-types, allowing the Regieleki user to double to teammates like Zarude, Keldeo, and Mamoswine. Obviously this being one of two uses for the set isn't great (hence again why I agree with the nomination), and the opponent could easily predict the double and triple to a teammate like Slowking, Amoonguss, or Tangrowth (depending on what they think the Reigeleki user will double to) Based on this, I think that a better comparison for Regieleki can be drawn to something like Regidrago, a Pokémon able to shred Fairy and Steel-less teams. However, like Regieleki to Ground-types, most teams carry a Fairy or Steel-type, preventing Regidrago from doing its job.
 

Estarossa

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I agree with the nomination but not for this reason. Regieleki has a certain number of pros and cons that warrant its usage. For starters, it has a Substitute + Protect set that is particularly potent against offensive teams that do not have a grounded Poison-type, or ones that forgo Defog (though these are less common). The reason that this set isn't very good it because it can't run Toxic though.
On this point, imo you'd get a lot more success out of just using Pokemon that are good at Toxic'ing grounds more so than running tspikes (amoong/glowbro/nihi all amazing mons and u still gotta contend with removal so im eh about that), excadrill celesteela mence are just a couple of examples of things that can do this.

It's still pretty fishy and you are kinda forced into running magnet rise over volt switch compared to before so that you are left with only thunder cage and no momentum move cause of the way hippos sand mucks with your recovery and easily breaks subs out otherwise (magnet rise at least means you maintain subs and can waste the sand turns away and then thunder cage a switch in after they forced out to stop toxic building up too much, but whirlwind hippo is still a big problem), but could definitely get the wins into teams that are forced to rather rely on their grounds to check specific toxic users and dont have cleric support.

I don't really have an opinion either way on whether it should be C or unranked though, would kinda like to see this set get some usage on ladder / swiss first at least to prove that it still works ok in this meta compared to before where it didn't have hippo to contend with.

Wanted to kinda reply to your post though because I definitely don't think Toxic Spikes is the route to try and make the most of this, especially since you need two layers guaranteed to make it work vs hippo, if it picks up a normal poison its game over regieleki useless.
 
I agree with the nomination but not for this reason. Regieleki has a certain number of pros and cons that warrant its usage. For starters, it has a Substitute + Protect set that is particularly potent against offensive teams that do not have a grounded Poison-type, or ones that forgo Defog (though these are less common).
I disagree, toxic spikes are pretty much unusable, since even then u have nidoqueen, exca, and god forbid boots hippo (even without it unless u get 2 layers u arent breaking through hippo). Toxic spikes is also very very niche or unviable since I doubt any of the users are very viable or do not want to use it such as nidoqueen, tenta, or roserade.

It also does something that both Raikou and Thundurus-T cannot -- lure in Ground-types, allowing the Regieleki user to double to teammates like Zarude, Keldeo, and Mamoswine
Ground types are still usable checks and counters to thundy-t and raikou they are just not shutting it down and rendering them useless as they can pivot into them still easily such as exca on thundy-t, swampert on both and can make a 50/50 grass knot/volt switch, and grasses generally also are vulnurable to different counterplay such as special mence, mamo, moltres, nihi, crobat, nidoqueen, etc.
 

Aqua Jet

Stardew
is a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
On this point, imo you'd get a lot more success out of just using Pokemon that are good at Toxic'ing grounds more so than running tspikes (amoong/glowbro/nihi all amazing mons and u still gotta contend with removal so im eh about that), excadrill celesteela mence are just a couple of examples of things that can do this.
The difference between Regieleki and something like Excadril or Salamence is the speed tier -- neither can successfully Toxic stall (or even hit) things like Icy Wind Keldeo. I do agree that this set is shit, but as you say, it could be a successful fish.

I disagree, toxic spikes are pretty much unusable, since even then u have nidoqueen, exca, and god forbid boots hippo (even without it unless u get 2 layers u arent breaking through hippo). Toxic spikes is also very very niche or unviable since I doubt any of the users are very viable or do not want to use it such as nidoqueen, tenta, or roserade.
see above

Ground types are still usable checks and counters to thundy-t and raikou they are just not shutting it down and rendering them useless as they can pivot into them still easily such as exca on thundy-t, swampert on both and can make a 50/50 grass knot/volt switch, and grasses generally also are vulnurable to different counterplay such as special mence, mamo, moltres, nihi, crobat, nidoqueen, etc.
They aren't. Excadrill gets Focus Blast'd by Thundurus-T and Scald'd by Raikou, and Hippowdon & Swampert get Grass Knot'd by Thundurus-T and risks a Scald burn by pivoting into Raikou. If the opponent decides that their best Regieleki answer is a Grass-type Pokémon then that's the best-case scenario for the Regieleki user, as you can just Volt Switch out after luring Grass-types in and bringing in counterplay to them.
 

Estarossa

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The difference between Regieleki and something like Excadril or Salamence is the speed tier -- neither can successfully Toxic stall (or even hit) things like Icy Wind Keldeo. I do agree that this set is shit, but as you say, it could be a successful fish.


see above


They aren't. Excadrill gets Focus Blast'd by Thundurus-T and Scald'd by Raikou, and Hippowdon & Swampert get Grass Knot'd by Thundurus-T and risks a Scald burn by pivoting into Raikou. If the opponent decides that their best Regieleki answer is a Grass-type Pokémon then that's the best-case scenario for the Regieleki user, as you can just Volt Switch out after luring Grass-types in and bringing in counterplay to them.
I think you missread/understood my post, I'm suggesting that you run those Toxic pokemon alongside regieleki and not tspikes, tspikes are awful as stated before and these Pokemon get the stage 2 Poison that you need on hippo etc.
 
They aren't. Excadrill gets Focus Blast'd by Thundurus-T and Scald'd by Raikou, and Hippowdon & Swampert get Grass Knot'd by Thundurus-T and risks a Scald burn by pivoting into Raikou. If the opponent decides that their best Regieleki answer is a Grass-type Pokémon then that's the best-case scenario for the Regieleki user, as you can just Volt Switch out after luring Grass-types in and bringing in counterplay to them.
Well sure but they deter it from spamming volt, u can do a sequence of smth like switch out -> bring in hippo -> switch out to nihi and still keep momentum, and thundy-t sure as hell doesn't want to eat a toxic esp since hippo have been running more sp. def these days.

Regieleki is obv gonna get countered by ground types regardless, nothing is stopping them from switching into it, but i was talking about raikou and thundy-t whose best checks and counters are grass types and get volt turned on into smth else such as the mons i mentioned. Esta mentioned btw that regieleki drops volt switch for magnet rise, so getting momentum is out of the window
 

Aqua Jet

Stardew
is a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
I think you missread/understood my post, I'm suggesting that you run those Toxic pokemon alongside regieleki and not tspikes, tspikes are awful as stated before and these Pokemon get the stage 2 Poison that you need on hippo etc.
I wouldn't say they're awful, sure they're bad but in a meta where most teams run Crobat as a Poison-type you could probably make them work if you're able to somehow eliminate their defogger / not give it opportunities to Defog but I think they're decent with the right abusers. Though I'll awknoweledge that Toxic spam is probably better.

Esta mentioned btw that regieleki drops volt switch for magnet rise, so getting momentum is out of the window
This is only on the Substitute + Protect set, we're talking about the Pivot set. Thus, you can in fact get momentum on Grass-types.

Also if you two want to continue this conversation my discord is Hauji#8851, we should probably do it there before a forum mod / hilo / monky comes and yells at us :D
 
Heres my Nomination for Cofagrigus to to rise from UR --> C/C+

Cofagrigus @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Mummy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold/ Impish Nature
- Rest
- Body Press
- Iron Defense
- Knock Off/ Shadow Ball



Cofagrigus @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Mummy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Rest
- Body Press
- Will-O-Wisp
- Knock Off

I have mainly used the first set which is why i'll focus on that.


What are the Pros?
  1. Cofagrigus can make for a dangerous wincon when using iron press
  2. Cofagrigus has a ghost stab to hit hatterene and the Slowtwins with or alternatively nice utility in using knock off
  3. Cofagrigus can check dangerous physical attackers like gyarados, azu(only on sets that dont have knock/when it doesnt switch in on knock) or even lycanroc as long as rocks arent up
  4. One of the things i personally like about it is how it, as a iron press mon, stops the other 2 iron press mons in skarm and Registeel
  5. Due to its ghost typing it can function as a spinblocker

Now we all know Cofagrigus has Problems which is why i'll mention those now as well
What are the Cons?

  1. As an Ironpress sweeper it faces heavy competition from the other 2 prominet ones, skarmory and registeel. And while it does have the mentioned advantages Registeel can boost its SpDef while skarm overall has more utility and a better typing
  2. Strong special wallbreakers like hydreigon, keldeo and primarina are capable of stopping it, though the knock variation can at least get rid of their items on the switch
  3. Unlike Skarmory Cofagrigus doesn't have reliable recovery so it has to rely on rest which is of course abusable

So now comes my reasoning for why i think cofagrigus deserves to be ranked in C or C+
Comparing the Niche of Cofagrigus to other mons ranked in C i do think it is fair to say it is similiarly viable as those, in some cases ( like inteleon for example) i do even think it surpasses them. I think checking gyarados and Registeel is a valuable Niche to have right now , that it has set variety is nice as well though thats not a reason to rank it. As for C+, i do think that it is worse than most of the mons listed there with jus some minor exceptions, so i think ranking it in C is best. Now here are just some replays and calcs.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1694406944
Here i missplayed a lot but cofag deactivating Conks guts allowed my salamence to survive Mach punch and it checked the lycan
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1694399709
This is just a quick showcase of it checking gyara whilst also showing why rest is unreliable
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1694521956
This is just a normal Cofag sweep at the end but they forfeited to early
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1694570885-tla3uoqp76i4ouppv5ubjbclhix2ovbpw
This is mainly just a sweep though i think its interesting to note how cofag just walled that entire team
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1694654419-5fdfvsdb3p91e4km3fhykwjq0hrpz7lpw
and here is just a last endgame swep, nothing too special

https://pokepast.es/0d622a3c6106bfa1
https://pokepast.es/f84cf6bf8d2c22b7
the 2 teams i used in case anyone is interested

252 Atk Choice Band Lycanroc-Dusk Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 127-150 (39.8 - 47%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Lycanroc-Dusk Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 127-150 (39.8 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mystic Water Gyarados Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 139-165 (43.5 - 51.7%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. +2 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 184-220 (57.6 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Cofagrigus Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hatterene: 162-192 (50.9 - 60.3%) -- 86.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 148-175 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
(Note that mummy takes away huge power after)
252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 135-160 (42.3 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
 
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Lily

wouldn't that be fine, dear
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UU Leader
Changes for this VR slate!

rises

:cobalion: Cobalion: S- -> S - best pokemon in the tier, invalidates a significant number of pokemon defensively, can bust through almost all of its checks and is just super fast and has so much utility at its disposal. nothing else is rly close to this level of centralisation and strength.

:hydreigon: Hydreigon: A -> A+ - hydreigon is very debatably the best scarfer in the tier and has oodles of offensive and defensive utility in that slot, being able to stave off psychics and checking a whole host of stuff offensively like cobalion, excadrill, zygarde, azelf and more. other sets remain decent as well, it has been underranked for a significant amount of time.

:nihilego: Nihilego A -> A+: I DID NOT FORGET THE JELLYFISH OKAY

:chansey: Chansey: A- -> A - the blob enjoys a rise in pokemon like hydreigon and primarina that usually lose to it and most of the things that threaten chansey can be outlasted by it long term

:excadrill: Excadrill: A- -> A+ - massive rise but excadrill is just really good right now. the downturn in hippo / skarm usage is amazing for it, and the rise in nihilego means its favourite prey is always there to be eaten. It's also enjoying the rise in amoonguss > tang bc that thing does NOT take earthquake well! It's in a really amazing spot and is arguably one of the scariest mons to face at +2 +1, especially if you're lacking a dedicated counter as so many teams tend to do.

:gyarados: Gyarados: A- -> A - waterfall flinch go brr

:zygarde-10%: Zygarde-10%: A- -> A - less tang, less hippo, more mushroom, happy dog

:togekiss: Togekiss: B+ -> A- - good stop to hydreigon and stuff and can really just 6-0 stuff randomly if you don't have a flying resist / if your flying resist is skarmory. twave and heal bell both v strong

:lycanroc-dusk: Lycanroc-D: B -> B+ - perhaps we treated you too harshly. doggy likes beating up hyper offense and likes there being less hippo and skarm to ruin its day

:necrozma: Necrozma: B -> B+ - HO staple, demon with CM sets as well
:raikou: Raikou: B -> B+ - raikou's speed and good coverage in addition to its great mu against stuff like togekiss and ability to check crobat gives it a fair amount of utility for offenses that makes it better than other stuff in B

:reuniclus: Reuniclus: B- -> B+ - aha! i see you are lacking a dark type! unfortunately i will be sweeping your entire team. well played friend

:crawdaunt: Crawdaunt: B- -> B - have primarina or die

:vanilluxe: Vanilluxe: C+ -> B- - die but like, regardless of what you have

:toxtricity: Toxtricity: C -> C+ - pretty decent ho mon and can be a funky breaker on its own, i personally think it sucks but i acknowledge it's better than c rank

drops

:hippowdon: Hippowdon: S -> A+ - the former titan has just not been so hot lately. people are abusing the fact that wow! a pokemon that only uses earthquake and toxic is actually pretty easy to handle if you respect its presence. while hippo is still great at keeping rocks up and has a very valuable and unique defensive profile, it just lets too many things to shit for free to be considered the very best.

:scizor: Scizor: S- -> A - scizor is something to be respected to a massive degree but it's just got so many flaws; the best pokemon in the tier is one of your best checks, stuff like salamence skarm rotom gbro is still giving you a really hard time, and it wants 10 moves to fit in 4 slots. on top of that it's quite difficult to build effective scizor teams because of the awkward issues brought about by its typing and meh bulk, making it an ineffective check to fairies (hatt prim toge), rocks (lycan nihi), grounds (drill mamo zydog) and a bunch more. random fire coverage on EVERYTHING sucks ass as well. it still retains a high ranking because you need to respect it so much but it just is not a super consistent in-game performer these days

:keldeo: Keldeo: A+ -> A - water horse no like seal or slow guy :(

:crobat: Crobat: A -> A- - ppl running less hippo means theres less stuff for crobat to abuse freely. being a speed control option that's rly meh into coba makes it less appealing too.

:jirachi: Jirachi: B+ -> B - just really hard to find a reason to use jirachi rn

:moltres: Moltres: B+ -> B - ohkod by knock, can't check coba, minimal reasons to use this

:mandibuzz: Mandibuzz: B+ -> B - good defensive profile but biggest coba fodder ever and is just so passive into stuff like prim as well

:starmie: Starmie: B+ -> B - was always extremely overranked

:swampert: Swampert: B+ -> B - big competition w/ hippo drill and fat waters

:tentacruel: Tentacruel: B+ -> B - meh at everything it does

:nidoking: Nidoking: B -> B- - use nidoqueen

:tapu bulu: Tapu Bulu: B- -> C+ - use any other grass type

:cloyster: Cloyster: B- -> C+ - use polteageist

:jellicent: Jellicent: C+ -> C - honestly don't know what to say about this one bc i didn't support ranking it in the first place really :worrywhirl:

:mantine: Mantine: C+ -> C - rain is just meh

:heliolisk: Heliolisk: C+ -> C - ^

:inteleon: Inteleon: C -> UR - just use crobat or noivern or something

new additions

:polteageist: Polteageist: UR -> B- - big ass threat that really abuses darkless teams and is one of the best mons on ho rn.

:golisopod: Golisopod: UR -> B- - first impression is incredible at revenge killing diggersby, azelf, hydreigon, etc. and pod is so strong that it can even revenge kill nihi, gyara etc. from pretty respectable ranges. combine that with valuable knock targets in mence, skarm, prim. coba and steela, as well as a great and unique defensive profile that lets you check excadrill and zygarde quite effectively, and you've got a pretty valuable pokemon.

:sylveon: Sylveon: UR -> C - scorbunnys this is still blacklisted just so you know

:regieleki: Regieleki: UR -> C - use any other electric type

:lanturn: Lanturn: UR -> C - beats thundy on stall and heal bells. it's something

these will be edited into the op whenever i'm not feeling lazy but if you have any questions let me know :D
 
btw why is the argument for cloyster "just use poltea" how do they compete? i dont see how they even compare as they are like 2 different pokemon, they are both smashers but what else they share apart fromt hat?
 
btw why is the argument for cloyster "just use poltea" how do they compete? i dont see how they even compare as they are like 2 different pokemon, they are both smashers but what else they share apart fromt hat?
Yeah I agree, using cloy as an offensive spike lead is prob better as nothing really wants to take that +2 icicle that could do anything about it setting up spikes
 

Sulo

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btw why is the argument for cloyster "just use poltea" how do they compete? i dont see how they even compare as they are like 2 different pokemon, they are both smashers but what else they share apart fromt hat?
While they don't directly compete, I'd say Cloyster is worse then Polteageist becasue of its inability to hit most of the metagame in three moveslots, especially common Pokemon like Primarina and Rotom-W. It's also getting less overall opportunities to set up, as opposed to Polteageist, which can come in on Pokemon like Skarmory, Keldeo, RestTalk Primarina, etc, by virtue of its solid SpDef stat. Ghost STAB is also incredibly hard to switch into if lacking a Dark-type, since even Chansey struggles to take Stored Power if it boosts again. Choice Scarf Hydreigon lacking Roost is also easier to take advantage of for a lot of Pokemon that Polteageist is often surrounded by on hyper offense, meaning most of the time you'd prefer Polteageist if anything.
Yeah I agree, using cloy as an offensive spike lead is prob better as nothing really wants to take that +2 icicle that could do anything about it setting up spikes
It's very difficult to actually fit Spikes and if you're using it as a sole suicide lead, it's better to use Scolipede, since it's almost always getting up more than a few hazards with Speed Boost + Spikes and can make progress due to Endeavor. Though Cloyster threatens common entry hazard removal like Salamence, you're pretty much wasting its potential as a somewhat threatening sweeper otherwise.
 

scorbunnys

Don't dream your life, but live your dream. #Bunny
:sylveon: Sylveon: UR -> C - scorbunnys this is still blacklisted just so you know
sry gurl dead af joke (i'll take it if u actually explain all the c ranked mons INCLUIDING this tho and "i have no idea why this is ranked" aint valid smh).

anyw why didn't vern rise? seems like meta trends kinda benefit it to some extent n it's solid speed control.
 
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Moutemoute

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Froslass (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Ice Beam
- Shadow Ball

Hello there ! I would like to nominate Froslass to either C+ or B- because I think it's an underrated Pokémon in HOs. I think it should be ranked at least at the same spot as Scolipede since both of them have their advantages and disadvantages. Even tho Scolipede has speed boost, a great speed tier and the combinaison of Endeavor + coverage, it can't deny the opponent to setup its own Entry Hazards which is something big for HO that rely on Focus Sash spam / Focus Sash users. With that in mind, Froslass cover this issue thanks to its access to Taunt and the fact that Ice Beam allows it to pressure the most common Defogger in the tier Salamence. This STAB is also pretty great to dent common threats such as Tangrowth, Amoonguss, Zarude, Thundurus-T or Hydreigon. On the other hand, I found that Shadow Ball was the best filler at the moment, allowing Froslass to pressure Slowking but also Hatterene which almost always tried to deny Froslass's Spikes with Magic Bounce. Shadow Ball also hits Cobalion for nice chip damages. Froslass's Ghost-type is also pretty nice to deny Rapid Spin from Excadrill.

Moutemoute vs. Micciu : Even tho I lost that game, I think it's a good way to showcase Froslass and how it can pressure a lot of Pokemon thanks to the set I mentionned. He managed to pressure effectively Micciu's team thanks to both of its STABs. In this situation, Spikes weren't that needed compared to chip damages on Micciu's bulky pivots.

Moutemoute vs. Runoisch : A recent game from UU Last Chance Qualifier tournament. Once again, Froslass pressured the opponent's team (with some haxx I have to admit but even without the freeze, it did well).
 
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Froslass (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Ice Beam
- Shadow Ball

Hello there ! I would like to nominate Froslass to either C+ or B- because I think it's an underrated Pokémon in HOs. I think it should be ranked at least at the same spot as Scolipede since both of them have their advantages and disadvantages. Even tho Scolipede has speed boost, a great speed tier and the combinaison of Endeavor + coverage, it can't deny the opponent to setup its own Entry Hazards which is something big for HO that rely on Focus Sash spam / Focus Sash users. With that in mind, Froslass cover this issue thanks to its access to Taunt and the fact that Ice Beam allows it to pressure the most common Defogger in the tier Salamence. This STAB is also pretty great to dent common threats such as Tangrowth, Amoonguss, Zarude, Thundurus-T or Hydreigon. On the other hand, I found that Shadow Ball was the best filler at the moment, allowing Froslass to pressure Slowking but also Hatterene which almost always tried to deny Froslass's Spikes with Magic Bounce. Shadow Ball also hits Cobalion for nice chip damages. Froslass's Ghost-type is also pretty nice to deny Rapid Spin from Excadrill.

Moutemoute vs. Micciu : Even tho I lost that game, I think it's a good way to showcase Froslass and how it can pressure a lot of Pokemon thanks to the set I mentionned. He managed to pressure effectively Micciu's team thanks to both of its STABs. In this situation, Spikes weren't that needed compared to chip damages on Micciu's bulky pivots.

Moutemoute vs. Runoisch : A recent game from UU Last Chance Qualifier tournament. Once again, Froslass pressured the opponent's team (with some haxx I have to admit but even without the freeze, it did well).
For Lead Froslass have you tried the Physical variant with Triple Axel/Poltergeist or did it not work as well on your team?
 

Moutemoute

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For Lead Froslass have you tried the Physical variant with Triple Axel/Poltergeist or did it not work as well on your team?
Yep I tried. But Triple Axel isn't a perfect move at all because of its accuracy, the fact that Salamence can Intimidate Froslass and you can take some nasty chip damages on a wrong predict on stuff that run Rocky Helmet (like Cobalion). Also Poltergeist doesn't synergize well with Knock Off on both Krookodile and Azumarill.
 

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