SS Random Battle Suspect Process - Dynamax

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I've gravitated between 1850-2100 ELO throughout the various metagames since I've joined in 2014 including this one and I must say, I am enjoying RandBats A LOT more than I have ever done before and I feel like Dynamax is just such an awesome, fresh mechanic that quite frankly, I'm going to be so sad to see it go. I'll try to explain:

It Forces You to Have a Pulse On the Game From the Get Go: More so than ever, getting a feel for what is going through your opponent's mind is the key element to victory. I initially stagnated at around 1500 ELO for this generation and attributed to how unfair and unbalanced Dynamaxing initially appeared. But after playing so many games, I feel like I am rarely ever taken by surprise when my opponent Dynamaxes and when I am, it's usually because it was a really egregious misplay or blatantly premature. Gaining this ability to anticipate an opponent's Dynamax takes some time to develop, but once you do, literally every turn is so much more exciting. It's all about laying not just laying the groundwork to maximize the effectiveness of your own Dynamax but to also see what kind of long-term plan your opponent has in mind. You can't just bust out your shell-smash sweeper, because you can Dynamax as soon as a Shell-Smasher comes out, lower their stats, trigger their White Herb with a Stat Drop (or boost your defenses) and be in a more favorable position. So it's all so much more calculated than ever before and to really understand what risks your opponent is taking or when they're desperate enough to use this game-changing mechanic.

Pokemon Become Much More Versatile Now: No longer is Lucario limited to being a powerful but frail glasscannon. With Max Steelstrike, you can boost his defenses to respectable levels and if the set features Swords Dance, you can even become a beastly sweeper to boot. Suddenly any Pokemon wielding Earthquake can become a defense giant. Glaring weaknesses that come with the luck of the draw can be mitigated by the sheer type of moves your Pokemon possess and at any moment you can completely transform your Pokemon into a completely new playstyle outside of their traditional role to patch up weaknesses that naturally come from a randomly generated team.

Team Information Is More Vital and New Team Synergies Can Arise: Every little bit of information revealed, every switch performed and even the type of every move in your opponent's moveset becomes valuable information. Does your opponent have a Swift Swim user and another Pokemon that carries a water-type move as coverage? Well then, that does provide a pretty clear avenue of information. By the same token, knowing YOU have a Swift Swim and a Pokemon with water-type coverage may make you want to hide your Swift Swim Pokemon until the very end to spring a nasty trap on your opponent.

Encore, Taunt and Other Disruptive Moves Aren't As Useless As They Initially Appear: At first glance, this may seem like a preposterous statement. If a Pokemon can just Dynamax to negate move like encore, of what use is it? Well, you just have to stop viewing these moves the same way you did in previous generations. Before your opponent has Dynamaxed, you can view these moves as a challenge to your opponent. Are you willing to go all-in after using your set-up move or will you back down? This can actually force your opponent to go into a premature Dynamax which you can fully exploit. You can even use this to willingly lure your opponent to Dynamax when you know you have a counter for their sweeper. In other words, you can't just sit back after using these kinds of moves like in previous generations. You have to incur some risk, but by the exact same token, so does your opponent. And if you can use it to bait out Dynamax, your opponent is triply screwed. For the rest of the match, assuming you yourself didn't Dynamax, they must be wary of your set-up sweepers since now they can always bypass a taunt or encore with Dynamax so they can continue to set-up in peace knowing no Dynamax Pokemon will ruin their setting up, the opponent won't be able to use Dynamax defensively against any of your set-up sweepers, making their team that much more vulnerable and all of their set-up sweepers will now have to be wary of taunt, encore, etc. It's just too good and opens up so many mindgames that quite frankly never existed before Dynamax.

You Have More Ways of Dealing with Pokemon That Shut Down Your Entire Team: This has and will always be an issue with RandBats in particular. You know the games. Where your opponent just so happens to have that ONE Pokemon that just seems to be tailor made to counter your party. But before, you were severely limited in how you could deal with this one problem 'Mon. But with Dynamax, you now have safer ways of severely taking the Pokemon down. Is the Pokemon too fast for your team? Your Dynamax Pokemon can probably take a hit and then Max Strike it down, get another nasty hit in and now that it's slower, maybe another Pokemon can pick up a revenge kill it wouldn't have otherwise. If that Pokemon sets up a Dragon Dance, you can kiss your chances of winning good-bye? Well maybe you can lower it's attack, and even if you don't kill it, it won't be able to get the +1 Attack that would make it impossible to deal with, allowing you to negate a free opportunity to set up. I can't tell you how many games I've won by using my Dynamax in this defensive way. Not as a way to counter another Dynamax but as a way of getting rid of one or two powerful counters to my team. Additionally, really unfair things that you would never be able to prepare for before, such as being Arena Trapped with Dugtrio on the first turn, now carry some risk for the person doing the trapping. Additionally, it really limits the amount of unmitigated set-up your opponent has. Does anyone really want to risk a second Swords Dance when the opponent can just Dynamax and nuke the sweeper? It makes it way harder for the game to get carried away from unfortunate match-ups because there is always the risk of getting nuked if you get greedy AND if you want to ensure your sweeper doesn't get nuked, you have to go all-in. Oh and now everyone has a way of countering serene grace BS, even if your entire team happens to be slower!!!!

Wildly Different Ways To Utilize Your Team:
This kind of touches upon previous points, but I think it's worth mentioning. I legitimately get really excited seeing all the moves my team has and the many, many different strategies can develop from each unique secondary effect that comes from their movepool. It allows me to create very intricate plans that cannot exist if there wasn't this mechanic that gave moves "underlying" qualities to exploit. It basically adds so much more depth to what each individual Pokemon can do and this can allow you to be better able to react to new information as it comes up. Did you just suddenly realize that your opponent's Pokemon are mainly Special Attackers? Then maybe your best Dynamax option is with a Pokemon with ground-type coverage and not just the one that has the weak Max Knuckle and poor special defense! It just expands the game and the possibilities at each game state in such a clever and nuanced way.

So with all this said, I do have four gripes that I will admit really do suck:

  1. Destiny Bond is way too risky and useless a lot of times. Unlike with Taunt or Encore, this will fail the next turn and if your opponent Dynamaxes, not only did you lose a Pokemon but even your chance to deal any damage. I do feel like Dynamax should carry the risk of running into a destiny bond in the back of their minds and since this generation it will always fail the next turn, the user of Destiny Bond also bears a great risk if they predict wrongly
  2. Max Airstrike maaaay just be a bit too strong. I actually don't have too much of a problem with Max Knuckle and while Max Ooze has its problems (see point 3), they both bear the huge risk that type immunities exist for both. Your opponent carries a huge risk in using either, especially if they haven't scoped out your team and you can easily bait them out when your opponent has imprecise information (and this adds yet another layer to my earlier point about how team information is much more complex and valuable this generation than ever before), but with Max Airstrike, it will hit anything and go off without hitch and it doesn't have it's damage dented. Sometimes, it really isn't wise to Dynamax just for the +1 if you need that raw power. With Max Airstrike, the benefit is insanely good with next to no detriment.
  3. Max Ooze Feels Underused: Poison is a terrible attacking type and complicating things even more, special attackers will rarely ever run poison coverage and Pokemon that do have poison moves rarely are special attackers. What a terrible thing! It does make setting up a Special Sweeper feel especially hard to pull-off. This is somewhat mitigated by the terrains and weather effects, but realistically, only Gengar and Toxicitry really benefit. I don't think it's game breaking but maybe some more sets of special sweepers could use the odd poison move.
  4. Certain Pokemon Do Not Benefit and Are Nearly Always Liabilities: This goes especially for Pokemon like Shuckle, Wobbuffett, Pyukummuku and both Orbeetle and Toxipex to a much lesser extent, because they will never be able to benefit from Dynamax, effectively taking away the creativity usually allowed by Dynamax. In "normal" matches this isn't so much of an issue since a player conscientiously puts these Pokemon into their team and can build a team around it. But in RandBats, these Pokemon can be super risky to send out and to make matters worse, if you get two or god-forbid 3+ of them on your team, well...your options really are appallingly limited and your plays so much more telegraphed. It's not much fun when you have two Pokemon that are essentially deadweights for a good chunk of the match.
But honestly, I don't feel like any of the four points above warrant taking away what is such a fun, dynamic and complex mechanic!
 
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I've been playing Showdown for 4 years now and I truly think that dynamax ruins the fun for people. Sure once you use your dynamax you cant use it anymore but that doesn't mean its balanced. Like one match my opponent dynamaxed early and after it ran out I dynamaxed my togekiss and used max airstream and you know how awful air slash serene grace togekiss is with all of the flinches but on top of that getting a 100% chance speed buff from an attacking move. It's not balanced at all in my opinion and I think it should be removed.
 
This is a follow-up to my previous post, as I don't believe it represents my current thoughts.

Let me start this post that, after reading some of the replies to this thread, my opinion on Dynamaxing has changed for the worse. If I'm being completely honest, it's a broken mechanic. In previous generations, there were only a few broken setup sweepers, which meant both players were unlikely to get one in any given match. However, in this generation, pretty much any Pokemon with a decent offensive stat and a Flying move can Dynamax, mash the Max Airstream button. As Mariannabelle eloquently put it, Dynamaxing results in a ridiculous amount of auto-win situations when compared to previous generations. You know how Geomancy Xerneas was so broken that the set had to be banished to the shadow realm? In this meta, simply Dynamaxing can turn a variety of Pokemon into a threat on the level of that thing. The usual counters like Encore don't even work on Dynamaxed Pokemon!

A lot of people believe that there's another side to this coin, as the Dynamax mechanic can prevent a potential setup sweeper from destroying your team. However, there are two problems with this argument:
1. The opponent can easily Dynamax themselves and destroy your Pokemon anyway.
2. Dynamaxing in this situation means the opponent has an advantage over you, as you just forfeited your insane sweep button.
Either way, the opponent has just as much of an advantage as before. Dynamaxing doesn't fix the issue with getting swept in these situations. If anything, it only makes your problem worse, as the opponent always has the option of Dynamaxing, which means they become almost impossible to defeat.

I regret basing my initial argument on the fact that the meta without Dynamaxing would be stale. That doesn't really have any inherent value, and doesn't prove any points when it comes to the mechanic itself.

The "extra dimension" Dynamaxing adds is quite shallow. This extra dimension basically boils down to almost all of your attacking moves becoming objectively better. The most skill this involves is basically knowing if your Max Move has enough power to OHKO or 2HKO the opponent, and knowing if you need to Dynamax offensively if your opponent knows these things. These are not complicated things to learn, even to your typical lowish-mid level ladder player.

Finally, we get to the main argument of the people who wish to save Dynamaxing: it counters itself. First of all, just because a broken mechanic can defeat that same broken mechanic doesn't mean that it's not still broken. Second: does it, though? In this case, both players have wasted their Dynamax, and one gets the benefits of the Max Moves they used while the other doesn't, since it's likely a defensive Pokemon. This therefore results in the one who pulled the trigger first reaping the rewards.

On a more positive note, I think I underestimated the fun factor of a Gen 8 meta without Dynamaxing. I still do believe it would be rather boring and inferior to Gen 7's meta, but it would have its own unique charm to it, with the new Pokemon and the older ones getting brand new moves and sets.

In the current situation we're in, I personally think we should ban Dynamax. It's an unbalanced mechanic that shifts the ratio of skill to luck in luck's favor, and reducing the skill of a meta is never a good idea. It also means that the meta is much less fun to play.

However, in the long-term, there is another, far preferable option available: make two tiers, one with Dynamaxing and one without. Since the debate seems fairly split at the moment, this would appease both sides. Of course, making an entirely separate Gen 8 meta would take a long time, which is why I suggest this as merely a long-term solution. For now, we should probably just throw it in the trash.
Yes I agree completely
 
I stopped playing randbats when Gen 8 came out. I just found dynamaxing to be so boring and one-dimensional, it stopped being fun for me. I play older gens these days.

Personally, I don't mind seeing the occasional shell smasher or Uber or Sigilyph. It can be kinda fun to scramble and have to run damage control. But an entire team full of them, with double HP as well? That doesn't sound fun or skill-based at all to me.

So yeah, I'm not going to be able to vote, but I hope you guys decide to ban. I'd like to rejoin the main randbat format. :)
 

Peli

name elevated but i still act average
As someone who has extensive experience in both gen 7 and gen 8 random battles:
Screen Shot 2020-04-04 at 3.57.33 AM.png

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I have flipped back and forth on Dynamax, while Random Battles is a casual tier for most, anyone that has seen the top top of the ladder can tell you that its much less of a casual thing once you really get into it. There is a core group of people you see over and over again on the top of the ladder, and much of these games come down to 1: who is forced to dynamax first before the potential counter is revealed OR 2: Having the counter in the back when the opposition is forced into a d-max position.

Random battles are not random, the better player wins a good majority of the time, just as much as most tiers. Yes, you will have the games where you are boned by the random teams, but for the most part there is always a path to victory. Often looking at my losses with subpar teams, there are turns where I had chances to put the game in my favor but failed too.

The goal of random battles is fun yes, but I think random battles are more fun when the better player wins more often then not. The question is if d-max achieves this or not.

At the start of the gen I hated d-max and thought it just made Random Battles much more well, random in terms of a winner. However as I played more I got more used to the option and how to play around dynamax, and I'm worried with the removal of dynamax combined with the shortened list of usable pokemon that random battles will become more stale.

For example, in the following replay I think dynamax's potential is shown in random battles.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8randombattle-1088252597

This would be the type of game that I would have near auto-lost without dynamax, but with the combination of a good d-max sweeper and good timing I was able to turn the game in my favor.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8randombattle-1088233404

Again, another example of d-max shining, Pikachu last versus three healthy mons and a unrevealed mon in the back, of course the stars lined up for this one but another showing of what d-max adds to Random Battles.

I do think that higher ladder players can utilize d-max better than lower ladder players, but once you get to a certain skill level, which mon is going to d-max is obvious in 75% of the games and isnt a matter of a reactionary thing but a player can have a broken d-max in the back and just put themselves in an auto-win position.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8randombattle-1073864870

I think this is an unhealthy example of d-max, my options were either d-maxing a pokemon that couldn't KO togekiss before togekiss 2hkod my d-max, or stall it out then d-max a subpar pokemon when I have 2 mons left.

Battles like that would be my reasoning for banning d-max, but im not sure they occur often enough to ban the new gens mechanic in something like random battles. I wish the suspect test had no d-max so we could see what the ladder would be like with this pokemon pool without d-max. I guess the decision is if the mechanic creates too much variance and lessens the skill-gap which im not sure of. I'm leaning towards banning d-max because talking to other top players it seems that the skill gap is smaller with d-max.


TLDR: GXE is significantly lower this gen then last gen = good players winning less. Ban D-max
 
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I feel like this suspect is missing the point a bit? As stated in the OP, dynamaxing has been banned in every one of the Smogon singles formats. It seems to me that as a competitive community we've already decided - for a variety of reasons, all of which apply to randbats (at least in opinion as a filthy casual) - that dynamaxing is broken and uncompetitive.

I think the question we should be asking is "Should dynamaxing be allowed in randbats even though it's broken and uncompetitive." This is where arguments about whether or not dynamaxing is fun or not, as well as whether there's any merit in playing dynamax-less gen 8 randbats as opposed to gen 7 actually have some sway. Unlike with the rest of the singles formats, is intended to be a bit more fun and casual than other tiers, so many dynamax is worth keeping around just to keep things interesting, despite its uncompetitiveness.

I just don't see the point in requiring a suspect test and a high ELO to vote on dynamax yet again. If we want randbats as competitive as possible, dynamax needs the ban hammer, for all of the reasons that have been stated in this thread and many others since the release of SS. If we're more interested in having an interesting, unique meta, why do only top level players get to choose?

My personal opinion is that this meta is a lot less fun than previous gens of randbats. Pretty much all of my games are decided when one player clicks the 'make it big' button to blow through their opponent's check, and makes too much of a dent on the other team to recover from even when said big pokemon doesn't outright sweep. In my experience it makes games boring, fast, and coin-flippy, to an even worse extend than it did in other metas because I'm not in control of my team composition. I don't really intend to play more gen 8 randbats until it's removed (if it's removed), and that includes making reqs, because I don't want to force myself to play a bunch of games that I don't find enjoyable to try to get a vote to fix the format. Overall I'm just frustrated that it's taken us this long to decide if we want to ban it, and that the discussion is being framed this way.
 
As someone who has extensive experience in both gen 7 and gen 8 random battles:
View attachment 233823
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I have flipped back and forth on Dynamax, while Random Battles is a casual tier for most, anyone that has seen the top top of the ladder can tell you that its much less of a casual thing once you really get into it. There is a core group of people you see over and over again on the top of the ladder, and much of these games come down to 1: who is forced to dynamax first before the potential counter is revealed OR 2: Having the counter in the back when the opposition is forced into a d-max position.

Random battles are not random, the better player wins a good majority of the time, just as much as most tiers. Yes, you will have the games where you are boned by the random teams, but for the most part there is always a path to victory. Often looking at my losses with subpar teams, there are turns where I had chances to put the game in my favor but failed too.

The goal of random battles is fun yes, but I think random battles are more fun when the better player wins more often then not. The question is if d-max achieves this or not.

At the start of the gen I hated d-max and thought it just made Random Battles much more well, random in terms of a winner. However as I played more I got more used to the option and how to play around dynamax, and I'm worried with the removal of dynamax combined with the shortened list of usable pokemon that random battles will become more stale.

For example, in the following replay I think dynamax's potential is shown in random battles.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8randombattle-1088252597

This would be the type of game that I would have near auto-lost without dynamax, but with the combination of a good d-max sweeper and good timing I was able to turn the game in my favor.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8randombattle-1088233404

Again, another example of d-max shining, Pikachu last versus three healthy mons and a unrevealed mon in the back, of course the stars lined up for this one but another showing of what d-max adds to Random Battles.

I do think that higher ladder players can utilize d-max better than lower ladder players, but once you get to a certain skill level, which mon is going to d-max is obvious in 75% of the games and isnt a matter of a reactionary thing but a player can have a broken d-max in the back and just put themselves in an auto-win position.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8randombattle-1073864870

I think this is an unhealthy example of d-max, my options were either d-maxing a pokemon that couldn't KO togekiss before togekiss 2hkod my d-max, or stall it out then d-max a subpar pokemon when I have 2 mons left.

Battles like that would be my reasoning for banning d-max, but im not sure they occur often enough to ban the new gens mechanic in something like random battles. I wish the suspect test had no d-max so we could see what the ladder would be like with this pokemon pool without d-max. I guess the decision is if the mechanic creates too much variance and lessens the skill-gap which im not sure of. I'm leaning towards banning d-max because talking to other top players it seems that the skill gap is smaller with d-max.
The thing with your last replay is, If dynamax was banned, would you have had a better shot?
Without dyna, as long as that toge got one flinch (60%) your only way would have been to always win tie with togekiss and get flinch, since if it moves first or doesnt flinch +2 air slash would do (58-68%).
With dyna allowed, the play was sac frosmoth to dyna max guard eiscue, max air stream + aura sphere doesnt kill thanks to sitrus, and rkill, you can see how if in one scenario (dyna banned) you need luck(avoid togekiss flinch, 40% chance) with dyna allowed You can actually play around it making the game more skill-based rather than luck-reliant.
Unfort none of your mons outsped togekiss which means the match-up was just bad, but that's just rands being rands :(
 
And, right now? Admittedly, the higher-skilled player IS still more likely to win a game.
That statement becomes MORE true, however, in a game without Dynamax.
Ok? If that's what you want then go play literally ANY other tier, where you can make your own team and the higher skilled player is MUCH more likely to win. Clearly random battles are not for you.

Let those of us who enjoy chaos enjoy random battles.

Can't believe you wrote over two thousand words just to make such a ridiculous argument.

Yes, in order to not get 6-0'd you had to press the button and 6-0 right back. Or else you get 6-0'd. The only way to avoid the loss to the blatantly overpowered mechanic was to use your own blatantly overpowered mechanic.

Broken does not check broken. Plain and simple.
Yeah bro I hate how I can't use any of my UU mons in OU. OU mons are so broken. They should all be banned so I can use my UU mons in OU.

Honestly, hard to argue against an argument like that.
 
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I feel like this suspect is missing the point a bit? As stated in the OP, dynamaxing has been banned in every one of the Smogon singles formats. It seems to me that as a competitive community we've already decided - for a variety of reasons, all of which apply to randbats (at least in opinion as a filthy casual) - that dynamaxing is broken and uncompetitive.

I think the question we should be asking is "Should dynamaxing be allowed in randbats even though it's broken and uncompetitive." This is where arguments about whether or not dynamaxing is fun or not, as well as whether there's any merit in playing dynamax-less gen 8 randbats as opposed to gen 7 actually have some sway. Unlike with the rest of the singles formats, is intended to be a bit more fun and casual than other tiers, so many dynamax is worth keeping around just to keep things interesting, despite its uncompetitiveness.

I just don't see the point in requiring a suspect test and a high ELO to vote on dynamax yet again. If we want randbats as competitive as possible, dynamax needs the ban hammer, for all of the reasons that have been stated in this thread and many others since the release of SS. If we're more interested in having an interesting, unique meta, why do only top level players get to choose?

My personal opinion is that this meta is a lot less fun than previous gens of randbats. Pretty much all of my games are decided when one player clicks the 'make it big' button to blow through their opponent's check, and makes too much of a dent on the other team to recover from even when said big pokemon doesn't outright sweep. In my experience it makes games boring, fast, and coin-flippy, to an even worse extend than it did in other metas because I'm not in control of my team composition. I don't really intend to play more gen 8 randbats until it's removed (if it's removed), and that includes making reqs, because I don't want to force myself to play a bunch of games that I don't find enjoyable to try to get a vote to fix the format. Overall I'm just frustrated that it's taken us this long to decide if we want to ban it, and that the discussion is being framed this way.
Random Battle has one thing over actual tiers: level balance. If you've read this thread or saw the chat room, you'd know that the view on Dynamax isn't one-sided. We've had polls with thousands of users that was almost split down the middle on how Random Battle should proceed with Dynamax. I could make the decision myself but that decision would be to keep it because I believe it is a net-benefit to Random Battle. Dynamax is a necessary tool to deal with the prevalent matchup issue. If you've played gen 7, practically every other game is a 6-0. After playing several months of gen 8, I went back to give gen 7 a whirl. My God - that is not fun in the slightest. You can get swept by literally anything. Simply put, Dynamax prevents one-sided matches more than it creates it.

While I'm speaking about my experience, I believe that Dynamax has a very steep learning curve. We're about 4-5 months into the generation, and only now I can say I've learnt how to effectively manage Dynamax. Dynamax isn't just clicking a button but about understanding when is the most optimal time to use it, similar to how you would setup the conditions for a sweeper in standard tiers. The other side of Dynamax is when is it optimal to use it defensively. Yes, good prediction is a key skill in a "fun" metagame too. Another example is considering whether to preserve it if you have certain Pokemon in the back and the rest of your team can be sacrificed to deal with the present threat. What I see here backs up my claim. The predominant supporters of ban fall into two categories: 1) low ladder players, and 2) casual players. In both of these cases, they haven't fully grasped how to effectively manage Dynamax.

Having played possibly close to a 1000 games this gen, and thousands more in previous generations, I will be voting no ban because I believe the Dynamax metagame is far more balanced and skill-based, and less matchup dependent, than the non-Dynamax metagame.
 
I have played Smogon on and off on two different accounts since 2013 with my most active period being Gen XY Little Cup and SM and SS randbats. I basically only lurk but sometimes like to bring in my thoughts, particularly for suspect tests. I must note that I won't be able to achieve these reqs, but I have no objection to the decision to make them tight as long as users can discuss their views

I am leaning towards wanting to ban Dyna for reasons everyone has mentioned previously e.g. Max Airstream, the only counter being Dynamaxing yourself, the huge variance in every mon's Dyna potential, ad nauseam. Some users have mentioned that you can stall out Dyna with Substitute and Protect, but neither of these prevent the boosts, in particular the most important ones in Max Knuckle and Max Airstream. Sub and Protect only really help against mons who miss their window once the three turns end, i.e. NOT Max Airstream and Max Knuckle users (moreso Airstream).

I'd also like to point out something else I don't think I've seen mentioned yet, which is that you can set your own weather with Max Geyser/Flare and less importantly Rockfall and Hailstorm. By setting their own weather, Fire-types can further increase their survivability against Water moves while increasing their damage substantially, and vice-versa for Water-types of course. This effect can even persist 2-4 turns after Dynamax ends, depending on when weather was set. To put it in other terms, a mon having a 130-140BP STAB move that sets beneficial weather for itself and potentially other mons in its roster which may or may not be revealed just adds to the variance of Dyna.

This isn't to say that weather-Dynamax moves push the mechanic over the top, but I just thought it was worth bringing up since no-one talked about it beyond the introduction paragraph. I think my main gripe with Dyna is just the variance it can have. Randbats are inherently about variance but Dyna pushes it too far, and as a result I am having a little less fun in SS randbats than I did in SM. Several wins I have had thanks to Dyna feel unrewarding, as do the losses due to it.

Also, to give a talking point to my post which is essentially repeating what others have said, I would like to pose a hypothetical question which could clarify what we prioritise in this tier. If it came down it, would we prefer banning the mechanic itself, or the mons that can abuse it the most e.g. Togekiss? In my opinion, Dyna is so polarising and gives certain mons that much more potential than others that it's a question worth asking in order to see where exactly our issues lie. I also don't intend to derail the discussion with this question so apologies in advance if I break any discussion rules with this.
 
Random Battle has one thing over actual tiers: level balance. If you've read this thread or saw the chat room, you'd know that the view on Dynamax isn't one-sided. We've had polls with thousands of users that was almost split down the middle on how Random Battle should proceed with Dynamax. I could make the decision myself but that decision would be to keep it because I believe it is a net-benefit to Random Battle. Dynamax is a necessary tool to deal with the prevalent matchup issue. If you've played gen 7, practically every other game is a 6-0. After playing several months of gen 8, I went back to give gen 7 a whirl. My God - that is not fun in the slightest. You can get swept by literally anything. Simply put, Dynamax prevents one-sided matches more than it creates it.

While I'm speaking about my experience, I believe that Dynamax has a very steep learning curve. We're about 4-5 months into the generation, and only now I can say I've learnt how to effectively manage Dynamax. Dynamax isn't just clicking a button but about understanding when is the most optimal time to use it, similar to how you would setup the conditions for a sweeper in standard tiers. The other side of Dynamax is when is it optimal to use it defensively. Yes, good prediction is a key skill in a "fun" metagame too. Another example is considering whether to preserve it if you have certain Pokemon in the back and the rest of your team can be sacrificed to deal with the present threat. What I see here backs up my claim. The predominant supporters of ban fall into two categories: 1) low ladder players, and 2) casual players. In both of these cases, they haven't fully grasped how to effectively manage Dynamax.

Having played possibly close to a 1000 games this gen, and thousands more in previous generations, I will be voting no ban because I believe the Dynamax metagame is far more balanced and skill-based, and less matchup dependent, than the non-Dynamax metagame.
In all honesty, I've counted at least as many ban-supporting arguments from elite players who have actually topped the ladder consistently in past and current generations - so that's by no means a predominant majority of low ladder players being against dynamax.
 
This is clearly a much more split discussion than every other Dynamax discussion where everyone universally agrees Max Airstream breaks the foundation of competitive singles. That being said Max Airstream breaks the foundation of competitive singles, and random battles is no different. Anything with a flying move now has the ability to snowball wildly out of control. Again if a ban doesn't go through limits should definitely be placed on the mechanic.
 

Typhlosion48

RBTT Champion
Hello, I usually don't make these types of posts but I decided to make one for this one time. After getting rank 1 on the ladder several times and acquiring reqs, I can say that I'm against banning dynamax. I've never really had an issue with dynamax and it doesn't seem like a broken mechanic in random battles.

Here are some things about dynamaxing in general:

1) Dynamaxing comes at a risk in non team-preview formats. What differentiates dynamax in tiers like ou, uu, and so on from randbats is that this format does not have team preview in gen 8. This causes dynamax to play differently here. A dynamaxed pokemon could easily be shut down by one of the opposing teams pokemon which the user couldn't have predicted the opposing team to have. For instance, any special attacker in general gets walled by blissey. A durant can be outsped and ohko'd by salazzle. Obviously, there a ton of more similar situations like this and this is usually why many players hold on to their dynamax until till late game or until they absolutely need to use it.

2) You do not need to use your own dynamax to defend an opposing one. I've seen many players unnecessarily use their dynamax when it's not required because of a created misconception that you need to use your dynamax to defend the opposing one. This is not always true and depends on the pokemon on your team and how you play them. If there's a way to play around an opposing you should try to do it as it automatically gives you an advantage.

Why I think dynamax should NOT be banned:

1) It adds a new element of strategy to randbats. It can lead to prediction heavy games as you only have 3 turns of dyanamax and want to get the most value out of it. These are the type of games that I personally find enjoyable. Trying to predict when your opponent is going to dynamax makes for some interesting games.

2) Dynamax gives you a better chance in difficult matchups. In a format where mons are randomly generated, you may not get the good matchup. Dynamax can help in situations like these by preventing your opponents set-up sweepers such as linoone and slurpuff from washing your team. Sometimes this may put you at a disadvantage as it might not provide the most value out of your dynamax but it can still prevent you from getting swept on the spot.

3) It's an enjoyable mechanic. Not too much to say here. I've certainly had the more fun playing gen8 randbats than any other random format. I just find the mechanic fun to use and it's what primarily differentiates it from gen7 rands.

There are a couple of things that I dislike about the dynamax mechanic however:

1) Max airstream is a bit too strong for its added effect.
2) Certain pokemon such as Necrozma-Dusk Mane become incredibly powerful after a dynamax because of its ability to set up a dd and use steelspike to increase defense with its already monstrous stats. Not to mention it also has weakness policy prism armor which makes it increasingly tough to deal with. There are also certain pokemon that almost never benefit from dynamax such as shedinja, shuckle, pyukumuku, wobuffet which I also dislike. Issues like this can be dealt with increasing/decreasing the levels of pokemon of pokemon like we've seen with shedinja.

And even a dynamax of my own couldn't live just one hit.
Dynamax gives you a better chance of living. If you couldn't live while you were both dynamaxed, you certainly couldn't live if you both did not dynamax

I don't think these replays are the best examples of what you were trying to prove because in the first one your opponent threw by sacking farfetch'd and in the second one(your third one) a regular togekiss could have done the exact same thing.

In conclusion, I think the benefits outweight the drawbacks in the random battle format and I think it should NOT be banned. Some of the points I mentioned are subjective like the part about it being fun and if you don't agree that's okay. We all have our opinions.
 
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Hello, I usually don't make these types of posts but I decided to make one for this one time. After getting rank 1 on the ladder several times and acquiring reqs, I can say that I'm against banning dynamax. I've never really had an issue with dynamax and it doesn't seem like a broken mechanic in random battles.

Here are some things about dynamaxing in general:

1) Dynamaxing comes at a risk in non team-preview formats. What differentiates dynamax in tiers like ou, uu, and so on from randbats is that this format does not have team preview in gen 8. This causes dynamax to play differently here. A dynamaxed pokemon could easily be shut down by one of the opposing teams pokemon which the user couldn't have predicted the opposing team to have. For instance, any special attacker in general gets walled by blissey. A durant can be outsped and ohko'd by salazzle. Obviously, there a ton of more similar situations like this and this is usually why many players hold on to their dynamax until till late game until they absolutely need to use it.

2) You do not need to use your own dynamax to defend an opposing one. I've seen many players unnecessarily use their dynamax when it's not required because of a created misconception that you need to use your dynamax to defend the opposing one. This is not always true and depends on the pokemon on your team and how you play them. If there's a way to play around an opposing you should try to do it as it automatically gives you an advantage.

Why I think dynamax should NOT be banned:

1) It adds a new element of strategy to randbats. It can lead to prediction heavy games as you only have 3 turns of dyanamax and want to get the most value out of it. These are the type of games that I personally find enjoyable. Trying to predict when your opponent is going to dynamax makes for some interesting games.

2) Dynamax gives you a better chance in difficult matchups. In a format where mons are randomly generated, you may not get the good matchup. Dynamax can help in situations like these by preventing your opponents set-up sweepers such as linoone and slurpuff from washing your team. Sometimes this may put you at a disadvantage as it might not provide the most value out of your dynamax but it can still prevent you from getting swept on the spot.

3) It's an enjoyable mechanic. Not too much to say here. I've certainly had the more fun playing gen8 randbats than any other random format. I just find the mechanic fun to use and it's what primarily differentiates it from gen7 rands.

There are a couple of things that I dislike about the dynamax mechanic however:

1) Max airstream is a bit too strong for its added effect.
2) Certain pokemon such as Necrozma-Dusk Mane become incredibly powerful after a dynamax because of its ability to set up a dd and use steelspike to increase defense with its already monstrous stats. Not to mention it also has weakness policy prism armor which makes it increasingly tough to deal with. There are also certain pokemon that almost never benefit from dynamax such as shedinja, shuckle, pyukumuku, wobuffet which I also dislike. Issues like this can be dealt with increasing/decreasing the levels of pokemon of pokemon like we've seen with shedinja.

Dynamax gives you a better chance of living. If you couldn't live while you were both dynamaxed, you certainly couldn't live if you both did not dynamax

I don't think these replays are the best examples of what you were trying to prove because in the first one your opponent threw by sacking farfetch'd and in the second one(your third one) a regular togekiss could have done the exact same thing.

In conclusion, I think the benefits outweight the drawbacks in the random battle format and I think it should NOT be banned. Some of the points I mentioned are subjective like the part about it being fun and if you don't agree that's okay. We all have our opinions.
well said. i'd like to point out that pyuk can at least wall out statboosting dynamaxers (lookin at u braviary) and shed can block most max moves. shuck's kinda bad but it can at least try to stall certain threats. wobb is literally setup fodder because max breaks encore. idk how to fix that one, maybe more custap wobbs. it's at least kinda useful against things that are already dynamaxed?
 
Is it possible to do something like the Ubers Dynamax Clause? I personally would like the entire mechanic banned, but people already voice their opinion on keeping it, so this might be a good option to consider. Besides, it's consistent with following Ubers banlist.

It would require more mons listed in the clause because Dexit isn't a thing here, but the first few additions should be self-explanatory.
  • Ho-Oh
  • Lugia
  • Kyogre
  • Groudon
  • Rayquaza
  • Dialga
  • Palkia
  • Giratina
  • Arceus
  • Xerneas
  • Yveltal
And then the rest of the inclusions cn be decided upon. So could the Dynamax Clause be an option?
 

Andy Snype

Mr. Music
i'm likely voting ban. most of my feelings going into this reqs were based on the impression of a pre-home meta, a very different meta I played in these reqs. That meta had a major problem of just feeling so powerless and uninfluential with the choices I could make and the options given. However, HOME is a great addition though that has kept things fresh and more importantly feeling manageable by introducing more Pokemon, and my impression of dynamax has changed that it can be fun and fresh, but ultimately it is bad for rands.

One thing I'm not denying though is that Dynamax on its own is that there are some dynamaxes where it doesn't have to be an offensive boost to set up for a win, just give a stat boost to further a Pokemon's pressure. Couple of replays to illustrate this:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8randombattle-1090656466 - all Yveltal had to do was Dyna Fly to secure speed boosts and it just outsped everything on my relatively fast & somewhat frail team and win. This takes Yveltal's natural bulk and mitigates its slow Speed, which once outside of Dyna lets it just wail on the rest of the otherwise-fast yet frail team with minimal recourse because it's a fast Yveltal without choice.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8randombattle-1090722551- Durant on its own is generally a fast threat and mildly physically bulky, but what really let Durant set up and shut down the Sirfetch'd dyna was STAB D-Steel to raise Defense and take the gamble that the rest of opp team is physically offensive.


Dynamax directly does three things for every Pokemon:
  1. give significantly boosted Base Power moves with perfect accuracy for any damaging move that isn't Fighting or Poison for 3 turns
  2. adds HP for 3 turns. i don't know what the number is, but this usually adds significant bulk to it
  3. all damaging moves have an effect that is maintained for some time after dynamax runs out (stat raise/drop, terrain, weather)
I don't like the practical effect that comes with playing with Dynamax, and these are my subjective reasons on why Dynamax is undesirable.

Dynamax dissociates a Pokemon's role from the individual Pokemon. One of the best things that I love about rands is that I can learn what roles/things certain Pokemon have without having to build. Honestly my favorite Poke to use in randbats is Orbeetle (so fast and bulky with utility, it's a better gen7 Ledian), and finding out that it's got Webs, Hypnosis, Recover, and hazard immunity with boots is pretty cool! I get to associate these roles with Pokemon. Dynamax removes this because of its ubiquitious distribution and swingy effect, I now have to consider much more about what type moves its sets get (which change in balance updates) to understand what this Poke is capable of. It's less: what does this Pokemon do but more: how can I use Dyna to get to my team and what could my opponent do? It's available for practically every Pokemon. A movepool typing with such an effect that can improve a Pokemon's shortcomings is so granular with broad applications that it detracts from a Pokemon's role

Facing Dynamax feels hopeless. Dynamax effects one and two often give very little counterplay outside of offering fodder to waste dyna turns or responding with your own Dyna, and perhaps getting gimped since you may have to spend a turn on Max Guarding on Turn 3 of theirs. (See the hide tag.) It makes things that have a reasonable shot to win just win harder with less avenues of recourse. The fun for me when facing these types of boosts is then on playing for my outs, maybe I have something faster that with a crit could KO back, or maybe I can bank on a miss to KO and still have a reasonable chance to come out on top. The main issues with Dynamax are at this point, it's either boosted enough that I can't revenge it, dynamax is too bulky for a crit to make a meaningful difference or I've sunk so many resources (fainted Pokes) to stall out dynamax that I'm unable to handle the rest of the team with what's left. It doesn't feel like there is hope to adequately answer a Dynamax and then the rest of the team after that. There are sweeps that you can do nothing about, and there's frustration that comes with the inability to do anything. Dynamax exacerbates it because even with crit odds, the damage output was never possible and there's that feeling of being unable/unlikely to prevent the dyna from being called at a different time/mitigate the dyna effects (team preview would only highlight how the teams are rolled).

They get significant bulk that you can't significantly chip them back through any other means. %-based residual damage is nerfed. Status is hard to pull off, especially if the dyna has base play rough or moonblast, and to go for status, you're likely taking 60-80% for whatever you're trying to status on them. The type of Pokemon that even could significantly status (WoW / Sleep/Para) often don't have appropriate recovery, so whatever bulky mon you send in is reduced to fodder. Protect is counterplay that currently doesn't have wide distribution (only seen it on pex/bronzong that I can recall) but it has been iffy because it doesn't block the boosts or terrain which could ensure a 2hko/ohko when facing a choiced Dyna Poke that hasn't locked itself into a move yet.


Dynamax is a pain to balance around. Balancing happens in rands; Ubers weren't always level 72. Suppose Dynamax is kept, this is a non-Pokemon mechanic that opens up a lot of holes. Moves that never existed prior certainly improve a lot of shortcomings to Pokemon that otherwise have clear weaknesses. For example, Max Airstream now offers slower Flying types with minimal use like Noctowl to get a chance, but it also offers also strong Pokemon like Yveltal to just be fast and bulky. Another fact is that certain Pokemon are nerfed enough that if you don't dynamax, they're dead weight. This is the cost of keeping Dynamax around if it's found that a Dynamaxed form is too heavy. Balancing around dyna forces whomever maintains the set choices that define certain Pokemon to have in their rands movepools: Brave Bird/Hurricane/Close Combat/Superpower are the obvious examples though it is possible for Earthquake/Iron Head to be considered as well.
 
Pretty much everything I have to say about Dynamax has been said by other posters in this thread. Because of the fact that almost any Pokemon can Dynamax at any given point (unlike Mega Evolutions and Z-Moves, which were relegated to specific Pokemon/sets), it turns every battle into an annoying guessing game. Unlike Z-Moves, which are generally one-time nukes, Max Moves have hilariously unbalanced secondary effects, namely the stat-boosting ones like Max Knuckle and Max Airstream. While some Z-Moves also boosted stats while dealing immense damage, they only lasted for one turn and were exclusive to specific Pokemon, whereas any mon can use these broken moves for three turns straight. Additionally, Dynamax removes the lock from Choice items. Ultimately, Gen 8 rands is incredibly unfun with the presence of Dynamax, and I support a ban on the mechanic.

That being said, I can understand the reasons why people would like to leave it in (it's not banned in Ubers, it's SS's defining mechanic and some people find that the Dynamax mechanic adds a new layer of strategy). Would it be possible to create a separate no-Dynamax format? If I recall correctly, OU did a similar thing a while back with a no-Stealth Rock format.
 
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One more point I'd like to make:

If it does get banned, I'd like to see future Randbat suspect tests. No more "but this is randbats". Or at the very least, heavily, HEAVILY nerf some Pokémon.
Zacian-C needs to go along with Dynamax. She was literally designed to be in that meta. She's even more suffocating than GeoXerneas, as she doesn't need the turn investment and can just switch out vs anything with impunity. Unless you roll an Intimidate Arcanine (and don't get worn down by nigh-irremovable Rocks), Sticky Webs (assuming the foe doesn't have a Spinner) or Torkoal it can set up and run a train on virtually everything. Her levels have been nerfed thrice and she STILL outruns everything bar like 4 Pokémon (Accelgor ,Ninjask, Zeraora and Dragapult are the only ones I can think of) and they have no hope of even denting her without Dynamax.
 
Hi, I'm the guy who says "lovely hax" in a game every time it happens lol. Having been #1 in gen7 ladder (for 2 days lol), and as high as #3 on gen8 ladder (never got to #1 unfortunately), I feel I should post my $0.02 on this matter. Other high-ladder 2100+ elo players I've played who have posted in this thread are Duck and Typhlosion08. I don't recognize anyone else in here but I could've just had a brain fart. So I respect what they have to say a lot. It's also very interesting that one has made a detailed argument as to why dynamax should be banned, and the other has argued why it should stay.

Dynamax requires skill. It is very possible to misuse dynamax, even at high-level ladder play. I don't think it's a lucksack as lower-level players make it out to be, as what I've noticed is that many of the players who were at the top of the gen7 ladder are also at the top of the gen8 ladder. I've played the current gen8 #1, minhthuanpk, many many times. He has 16792 gen7 battles played. That is insane. What I'm getting at is that if you were a good gen7 player, you're going to be a good gen8 player. Maybe your win rate is now closer to 50%, but you're still going to be near the top. What people don't get is that in random battle, a 55-60% win rate is considered good because you are facing other good players. This is not like OU where you can come up with some savage tech, get 80% win rate for a small while, then facepalm as everyone copies your team.

I have used dynamax to win with the usual setup suspects (Hawlucha, Braviary, Dreadnaw, Corviknight, Togekiss, Gyarados, Shell Smashers, Quiver Dancers). But I have also used dynamax to stop these Pokémon, and many times I have won by using dynamax second. There are a few counterplay measures that I have used to good effect. Obviously the best one is status moves. Another is stalling out the dynamax if the opp uses it first, letting some Pokémon with Sturdy/Sash die, and then using dynamax yourself. My favorite counterplay trick is if the opp has set up rocks/spikes, and I have a crippled Pokémon that will automatically faint upon switch-in. Obviously there's no silver bullet, otherwise there wouldn't be a suspect test in the first place, but dynamax isn't the autowin button that many people claim to be. In fact, it's a stopper against certain Belly Drummers/Shell Smashers who would otherwise destroy your team.

Here are a list of things that I feel are dumber than Dynamax, but I have accepted are part of the random metagame:
  • Zacian-Crowned. Enough said.
  • One player using Sticky Web on turn 1 or 2 (switched to the Sticky Web user) and automatically winning because the other player has no way to deal with it.
  • Toxic stall is a strategy that has been around forever. I would much rather lose to Dynamax than a Toxic staller. Pyukumuku has become somewhat of an unlikely MVP in this format in that it can stall out any non grass/electric/steel Pokémon due to its level advantage and neutral/84 EV spread on all Pokémon, thus weakening wallbreakers who would otherwise be adamant/252 EV. But yeesh, losing to Umbreon/Vaporeon/Salazzle over 10+ turns while they toxic stall you out is very infuriating and is the main reason I concede games. I'm not saying that Toxic stall should be suspected. It's a proper check to dynamax as long as the Pokémon can survive 1 hit to use Toxic.
  • Setup Pokémon that have Strength Sap are stupid. Polteageist has become one of the dumbest shell smashers. It has a monster SpD stat, and so the proper counter would be to go after its weak Def stat. Nope! Strength Sap is a hilariously stupid move because it's typically a *full* heal along with a Growl. This move has also made Bellossom a freak of nature, though Bellossom's offensive set (Giga Drain/Moonblast) does make it possible to beat it with steel types packing Swords Dance.
  • Farfetch'd, for some reason, is RU. This has to be some sort of silly mistake, as it puts Farfetch'd at lv84. We're supposed to believe that Farfetch'd is more powerful than Unfezant (NU, lv86) which sports the same high criticals gimmick. Or Shell Smash Crustle (NU, lv86). Serious?
  • All moves having PP Max. Yes, in constructed formats it's a fine idea. In random all it really does is prolong a stalled game because Recover has 16 PP instead of 10. If it were up to me, random wouldn't have any moves with PP Max, thus making Pressure an awesome ability.

My decision vote is clear. DO NOT BAN
 
  • Farfetch'd, for some reason, is RU. This has to be some sort of silly mistake, as it puts Farfetch'd at lv84. We're supposed to believe that Farfetch'd is more powerful than Unfezant (NU, lv86) which sports the same high criticals gimmick. Or Shell Smash Crustle (NU, lv86). Serious?
Farfetch'd was only recently added thanks to Home. It started in OU and is currently falling down the tiering ladder. Changing levels based on tiers is probably still for the best but yeah it has its problems.
 
Here are a list of things that I feel are dumber than Dynamax, but I have accepted are part of the random metagame:
  • Zacian-Crowned. Enough said.
  • One player using Sticky Web on turn 1 or 2 (switched to the Sticky Web user) and automatically winning because the other player has no way to deal with it.
  • Setup Pokémon that have Strength Sap are stupid. Polteageist has become one of the dumbest shell smashers. It has a monster SpD stat, and so the proper counter would be to go after its weak Def stat. Nope! Strength Sap is a hilariously stupid move because it's typically a *full* heal along with a Growl. This move has also made Bellossom a freak of nature, though Bellossom's offensive set (Giga Drain/Moonblast) does make it possible to beat it with steel types packing Swords Dance.

My decision vote is clear. DO NOT BAN
Hard agree on these points (I'm undecided/ambivalent about the others).

I'll add one more - Slurpuff is also broken as fuck. WAY more broken than dynamax.
 

Deleted User 229847

Banned deucer.
I will probably find some time to ladder just because, being a quite casual random battle player, dynamax has proved to be the worst mechainic ever implemented into this game so far (and with Z moves it's really saying something). The fact that this is the first suspect in the history of random battles is also extremely telling. I loved playing some randbats from time to time, even getting into top 500 on some occasions.

Unluckily for me, dynamax is such a broken disgusting mechanic that's sucking all the fun I've had with this modality to begin with. Which is more than enough to warrant a ban.
 
My vote is DO NOT BAN
I actually have a lot more fun with Dynamaxing. If I wanted to play a meta without dynamaxing I could play Gen 7 or Gen 8 OU. There are more pokemon being added as DLC to the dex and I want to see what Dynamaxing does for them and there sets and banning Dynamaxing would prevent such a meta from developing.

The opponent Dynamaxing isn't a total loss as usually one can come back as its obvious when they will dynamax in most cases. And in most cases where it is a loss I find that I would have lost anyways. And is it really worth banning a mechanic to save maybe 5% of matches where you pull a comeback from behind victory? For some the answer may be yes but for me its no.
 
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