With the uber situation you stand a chance without dynamax as a factor in battle. It is possible to stop setup and you can wear them down. Sweepers and ubers with dynamax get a huge health boost and can boost their stats even more. It's pretty fair to ban. You'd see my point after encountering a situation similar to this every battle
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SS Random Battle Suspect Process - Dynamax
- Thread starter The Immortal
- Start date
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Gen 8 is blatantly focused on Hyper Offense, and crushing teams has never been easier with such a powerful mechanic. While Shell Smash and the like will sweep teams that get unlucky, the thing with that is it's only restricted to a few Pokemon. You know when the Omastar switches in it's probably Shell Smash, and there does exist options to deal with it that aren't using your own Shell Smash sweeper. Dynamax is a new level of power. Anything that switches in with the right move can stomp the game and win pretty quickly. Your counterplay is limited in comparison to a traditional setup sweeper, as you're now relegated to fishing through your team to find a Substitute/immunity. If you don't have one, that's tough luck. You could defensively Dynamax but that screws you out of your own autowin, if you have one. And that implies you have something that can effectively Dynamax defensively. But here's the problem with doing so. Lets say it goes like this:
Player A gets lucky and rolls a Gyarados with Max Airstream and Max Geyser, and uses their Dynamax after switching it in on something it can threaten out. Player B is left with very limited options, but say they get lucky and have something to switch in on. Here's how this can play out.
I think that if this ban doesn't happen, a different system could be utilized. Ubers recently agreed Dynamax was a problem, but didn't want to fully restrict the mechanic. Instead they opted for a banlist where certain Ubers are restricted from Dynamaxing, as well as Ditto. This allows the mechanic to be preserved for Pokemon where the consequences aren't an automatic Necrozma-DM 6-0, or a Ditto countering a Xerneas for a clean reverse sweep. The power level of certain Dynamax Pokemon of the highest power level is unhealthy and problematic, and I would suggest implementing that rule if a full ban does not go through. Sure fighting a team that rolled Mewtwo and Zekrom will always be skewed, but if they can't Dynamax those guys, you at least get to have a fighting chance.
Random Battles can remain fun. By all means. But Dynamaxing causes problems beyond being fun, and should at the very least be restricted.
Player A gets lucky and rolls a Gyarados with Max Airstream and Max Geyser, and uses their Dynamax after switching it in on something it can threaten out. Player B is left with very limited options, but say they get lucky and have something to switch in on. Here's how this can play out.
- Player B switches to something with Water Absorb on a correctly predicted Max Geyser. Gyarados still has 2 turns of Dynamax with double their max HP and can just use Max Airstream twice to kill the wall, because 170 BP +1 speed is dumb.
- If Player B chooses to Dynamax defensively and Max Guard, Gyarados has 1 more turn to use Max Airstream, which probably won't kill, but that's still a guaranteed +1 speed (coinflip on max guard isn't really worth the risk) and the opponent's Dynamax close to wasted.
- Of course, this is all contingent on actually getting a Water Absorb mon and predicting the correct move.
- If Player B chooses to Dynamax defensively and Max Guard, Gyarados has 1 more turn to use Max Airstream, which probably won't kill, but that's still a guaranteed +1 speed (coinflip on max guard isn't really worth the risk) and the opponent's Dynamax close to wasted.
- Player B has Substitute. Player A still has Max Airstream, which will likely break the sub.
- Player B switches into an Electric type to attempt to eliminate the threat with a 4x Electric weakness.
- Player A Max Airstreams on the switch and now outruns and eliminates the counter, proceeding to get +2 speed and +1 attack and rolls the game.
- Player B comes in on a Max Geyser and can outrun the Gyarados for 1 turn. Gyarados has the potential to lose to it without them Dynamaxing, but the double HP makes it unreliable unless it's something like Zekrom. In which case Player B has to Dynamax to get rid of the problem.
- This creates a slippery slope where now Player B has a looming threat and Player A might not have any options to get rid of it, thus creating its own problem.
- Of course, this is all contingent on actually getting an Electric type and predicting properly.
I think that if this ban doesn't happen, a different system could be utilized. Ubers recently agreed Dynamax was a problem, but didn't want to fully restrict the mechanic. Instead they opted for a banlist where certain Ubers are restricted from Dynamaxing, as well as Ditto. This allows the mechanic to be preserved for Pokemon where the consequences aren't an automatic Necrozma-DM 6-0, or a Ditto countering a Xerneas for a clean reverse sweep. The power level of certain Dynamax Pokemon of the highest power level is unhealthy and problematic, and I would suggest implementing that rule if a full ban does not go through. Sure fighting a team that rolled Mewtwo and Zekrom will always be skewed, but if they can't Dynamax those guys, you at least get to have a fighting chance.
Random Battles can remain fun. By all means. But Dynamaxing causes problems beyond being fun, and should at the very least be restricted.
That would require significant effort by those that develop Random Battle sets. It could be an option later on but the result of this suspect will tell us where to focus our immediate attention because the current state of Random Battle is unbalanced due to being based on non-dynamax tiers.
We conducted several trial runs prior and these reqs were determined to be achievable for the average Random Battle player.
How is this any different from going up against ferrothorn when you have no fire or fighting moves?
It's RANDOM battles. Sometimes you get fucked.
Ferrothorn is one Pokemon. The list of Pokemon that have the potential to abuse Dynamax, handily outlined by Celever (really great post btw), is way, way too many.
Genuine question; bit of a whataboutism argument -- but still:
What makes G8 Dynamax different from all the blatantly broken stuff from last gens? Geomancy Xerneas (G6/G7)? "Ayy, it's just randbats, deal with it." Cosmic Power Sigilyph (G6)? "Well, Houndoom shuts it down." Mega-Salamence with set-up (G6/G7)? "There are TWO whole revenge killers in Mamoswine and Weavile, so don't fret." Zacian-Crowned (G8)? "Well, try using Torkoal or Arcanine"
People here are quoting Shell Smashers. While they make from some SCARY Dynamaxed Pokémon -- they were broken in gens before too. You basically had to have priority (and priority that actually threatens!) to stop them. I've seen someone reference priority Encore. FOUR POKéMON OUT OF ~1000: Volbeat, Illumise, Whimsicott and Liepard. That's hardly a consistent check.
Yeah, a dynamaxed Shell Smash/Quiver Dance Pokémon is scary but:
A) They're telegraphed from a mile away
B) Need a turn to actually set up SS/QD
This gives you time to Dynamax yourself and put them in KO range before they start threatening you. Before G8, a Banded Passimian in Rock Slide was easy set-up for something like Barbaracle. Now, with the prospect of it Dynamaxing and laying down some Max Quakes or Max Knuckles -- not so much.
Keep Dynamax
I genuinely don't understand why people think this is broken in a Randbat metagame. Yeah, some say it supplants skills. But so is going 0-5 to 6-5 when your opponent pulls out a Geomancy Xerneas in G7 randbats and you didn't have the luxury of rolling one of the seven consistent checks/revenge killers to it.
Furthermore, it's disputable whether or not it actually supplants skill -- as both sides get access to it. Does it suck when your foe pulls out a shitmon that you simply have no way of checking? Well, that's just the nature of randbats, isn't it?
What makes G8 Dynamax different from all the blatantly broken stuff from last gens? Geomancy Xerneas (G6/G7)? "Ayy, it's just randbats, deal with it." Cosmic Power Sigilyph (G6)? "Well, Houndoom shuts it down." Mega-Salamence with set-up (G6/G7)? "There are TWO whole revenge killers in Mamoswine and Weavile, so don't fret." Zacian-Crowned (G8)? "Well, try using Torkoal or Arcanine"
People here are quoting Shell Smashers. While they make from some SCARY Dynamaxed Pokémon -- they were broken in gens before too. You basically had to have priority (and priority that actually threatens!) to stop them. I've seen someone reference priority Encore. FOUR POKéMON OUT OF ~1000: Volbeat, Illumise, Whimsicott and Liepard. That's hardly a consistent check.
Yeah, a dynamaxed Shell Smash/Quiver Dance Pokémon is scary but:
A) They're telegraphed from a mile away
B) Need a turn to actually set up SS/QD
This gives you time to Dynamax yourself and put them in KO range before they start threatening you. Before G8, a Banded Passimian in Rock Slide was easy set-up for something like Barbaracle. Now, with the prospect of it Dynamaxing and laying down some Max Quakes or Max Knuckles -- not so much.
Keep Dynamax
I genuinely don't understand why people think this is broken in a Randbat metagame. Yeah, some say it supplants skills. But so is going 0-5 to 6-5 when your opponent pulls out a Geomancy Xerneas in G7 randbats and you didn't have the luxury of rolling one of the seven consistent checks/revenge killers to it.
Furthermore, it's disputable whether or not it actually supplants skill -- as both sides get access to it. Does it suck when your foe pulls out a shitmon that you simply have no way of checking? Well, that's just the nature of randbats, isn't it?
Agreed. My suspicion is a small amount of people will reach that.
Does this include Hackmons Cup as well?
Alright my opinion from someone who has topped ladder many times and has won many random battle tournaments, including this one, where I won 7/8 of my sets in a double elimination, best of 5 tour. I played a crapload of games for this. Good times.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/firebot-random-battle-tournament-the-2nd-grand-finals.3530997/
Dynamax makes Gen 8 randbats into a poorly balanced and unpleasant meta. In most generations of randbats, and certainly the ones in which randbats was developed alongside the gen and actively tweaked by PS staff to be reasonably balanced, the average team can take on anything on the opposing team, provided you play cautiously and scout, etc. That's just not true in Gen 8 randbats. The number of games where your team literally just loses, period, to a dynamaxed shell smasher or other set up sweeper like Slurpuff or Necrozma is way too high.
It's a fundamentally cancerous mechanic that has no place in any metagame.
I also question why this even had to be "suspected". At the end of the day Randbats is loosely based on the rules of Smogon singles tiers to begin with and all of them except Ubers have the mechanic banned, and even Ubers has claused it.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/firebot-random-battle-tournament-the-2nd-grand-finals.3530997/
Dynamax makes Gen 8 randbats into a poorly balanced and unpleasant meta. In most generations of randbats, and certainly the ones in which randbats was developed alongside the gen and actively tweaked by PS staff to be reasonably balanced, the average team can take on anything on the opposing team, provided you play cautiously and scout, etc. That's just not true in Gen 8 randbats. The number of games where your team literally just loses, period, to a dynamaxed shell smasher or other set up sweeper like Slurpuff or Necrozma is way too high.
It's a fundamentally cancerous mechanic that has no place in any metagame.
I also question why this even had to be "suspected". At the end of the day Randbats is loosely based on the rules of Smogon singles tiers to begin with and all of them except Ubers have the mechanic banned, and even Ubers has claused it.
This dude should buy a lottery ticket. It's real easy to craft these best case scenarios and complain about how you crafted them. Just as easy as Player A can do all this stuff someone can easily be given something that walls the shit out of it.
The argument still works. Each pkmn that can abuse Dynamax can be walled (even if poorly or by very specific Pokemon) if you have been blessed by the RNG gods.
I understand the compulsion to only focus on le epic sweep aspect of dynamax, since it can be extremely annoying with the Zekroms, Polteageists or Gyaradosi of the world. However, I've found that being able to dynamax is actually extremely helpful in dealing with broken Pokemon like the best ubers (Zacian-Crowned is going to need dealing with if this goes through) or shell smashers that have always been massive pains in random battles (as Unknown Warrior pointed out). Generally, I've seen it work consistently better as a defensive mechanic due to how the HP modification works.
I think the amount of times dynamax provides a free win is real but overstated- more often than not these sweeps still require planning and good execution to work. In my opinion, these few nightmare scenarios are cancelled out by the amount of times that dynamax can put a stop to a threatening Pokemon your team has no good answers to otherwise. It's actually a bandage on the matchup problem, not a hindrance.
I think the amount of times dynamax provides a free win is real but overstated- more often than not these sweeps still require planning and good execution to work. In my opinion, these few nightmare scenarios are cancelled out by the amount of times that dynamax can put a stop to a threatening Pokemon your team has no good answers to otherwise. It's actually a bandage on the matchup problem, not a hindrance.
breh
強いだね
The value of saving Dynamax largely stems from having shitty teams that you cannot fix. Sometimes you will get teams that get absolutely destroyed by literally one Pokemon. I have had teams where, for example, every Pokemon is slower than and weak to Freeze Dry Alolan Ninetales. Dynamax serves as a doorstop when you cannot fix big problems that result from team generation. I, personally, am ambivalent about whether or not it should be kept and will still enjoy rands either way, but getting rid of it would be made significantly sweeter if teams did not have large structural problems as a frequent feature.
ok lets talk about Dynamax in randbats, Ill start my post by saying Im all for Dynamax, its such a fun mechanic and I love the things that it enables me to do, it allows pokemon like Bellossom to be good, and allows things like charizard to set up its own sun, barraskewda set up its own rain, etc...
some pokemon benefit from it a lot more than others, which ill talk about later, what im saying tho is that the meta is very offensive as a result, which is good! i dont wanna face a toxapex and lose because i got no way to break it, Dynamax helps with that. its not the most simple thing to use on high ladder and top play either, I see Dynamax as a counter play avalible to opposing Dynamax, whatever pokemon you get is more than likely to be able to take a hit due to the double HP, so even tho its less reliable its still something to keep it balanced.
not every pokemon benefits from dynamaxing which i mentioned earlier, walls and support related mons get their utility changes to Max Guard, making dynamaxing them pretty much useless and happens on the rarest of ocassions.
theres also the fact that randbats has never ever suspect tested ANYTHING in the past, and this is a huge deal, thats breaking a very spesific trend that doesnt have to be broken, it has nothing to do with Dynamax and its effects itself, but its still important, the format would change so much with this one change, and it doesnt have to. I also want to mention that Dynamax is banned in SO many formats, it makes this gen lack so much in my eyes, I dont wanna have to wait for gen 9 for a new exciting mechanic because this one is this bad in therms of its healthy effect on the meta.
now Ill end off by mentioning the unpopular opinion which is I dont think Dynamax is the worst thing we need to deal with. hax and crits are worse but cant remove that. my point is random battles has followed a certain tredition where whatever exists, stays, and you gotta deal with it, therefore I think Dynamax should absolutely stay
some pokemon benefit from it a lot more than others, which ill talk about later, what im saying tho is that the meta is very offensive as a result, which is good! i dont wanna face a toxapex and lose because i got no way to break it, Dynamax helps with that. its not the most simple thing to use on high ladder and top play either, I see Dynamax as a counter play avalible to opposing Dynamax, whatever pokemon you get is more than likely to be able to take a hit due to the double HP, so even tho its less reliable its still something to keep it balanced.
not every pokemon benefits from dynamaxing which i mentioned earlier, walls and support related mons get their utility changes to Max Guard, making dynamaxing them pretty much useless and happens on the rarest of ocassions.
theres also the fact that randbats has never ever suspect tested ANYTHING in the past, and this is a huge deal, thats breaking a very spesific trend that doesnt have to be broken, it has nothing to do with Dynamax and its effects itself, but its still important, the format would change so much with this one change, and it doesnt have to. I also want to mention that Dynamax is banned in SO many formats, it makes this gen lack so much in my eyes, I dont wanna have to wait for gen 9 for a new exciting mechanic because this one is this bad in therms of its healthy effect on the meta.
now Ill end off by mentioning the unpopular opinion which is I dont think Dynamax is the worst thing we need to deal with. hax and crits are worse but cant remove that. my point is random battles has followed a certain tredition where whatever exists, stays, and you gotta deal with it, therefore I think Dynamax should absolutely stay
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Didn't read your whole post but (I think I'm agreeing with you?) if anything Zacian should be banned before Dynamax is even considered.
If dynamax is kept, I believe we'll be able to take some more liberties with Random Battles (but would need TI to confirm this one for me). In the hopeful case the mechanic remains, I'd like to see levels adjusted on Pokemon that take full advantage of dynamax, rather than using levels based on their tiering in a dynamax-less meta. My favorite example of this issue is Swoobat, a PU Pokemon that, based on leveling, is unreasonably fast and stronger than a Swoobat has any right to be. There's no chance this Pokemon is PU in a dynamax meta. This Pokemon is just an extreme, but incongruities like this run through the meta we have now, and could likely be better adjusted if we break away from the current structure with a decision to keep dynamax.
Mariannabelle
chill guy
Hello, friendly Random Battle player here.
First, a few notes.
"Dynamax is the gimmick of this generation, we didn't ban Megas or Z-moves, banning dynamax results in a watered-down version of gen 7 randbats"
None of these arguments have inherent value. So why waste your fingers?
"Random battle is the fun meta anyway, and Dynamax is fun"
Too subjective. Still no inherent value.
Random Battle, in recent generations, was not a luck-based game. Sure, any one game always could go south (and you know they did.)
But you know what says a lot more than one game? Hundreds of games. Thousands of games. You can't write off a high GXE as 'just luck'. It's an aggregate.
The fact that some players rose to 80%, even 90% GXE (never got to 90% myself) indicates that there was something they did differently than the riffraff. Something that took practice.
See, even if you think one match is about luck, the aggregate of hundreds or thousands of games is about skill.
What is skill?
In Random Battle, up until recently, skill was determined by different factors than you would find in tiered metagames like OU, and UU, etc.
In a tiered meta, part of skill is teambuilding skill- having a game plan that reflects an understanding of current metagame trends, i.e. understand what threats are common now and am I prepared for them.
On the other hand, one aspect of skill in Random Battle is putting together a plan on the spot. Right now. How many contingency plans do you have? Can you recognize your win condition? "I don't know their entire team, so what are the risks vs benefits of saccing the creature in front of me?"
You have to gather information as fast as possible, evaluate the risks, and sometimes, make a read based on limited information.
These are all elements that take practice.
And yes, sometimes you're forced into a 50-50 scenario because of a speed tie, or you aren't sure if they have a scarf or not, etc.
But again, in the aggregate, your analysis skill is really being tested.
Sometimes you lose because of Geomancy Xerneas having very few counters, but that's the way the cookie crumbles. Move onto the next battle.
---------
Now? With Dynamax?
There's a lot more Geomancy Xerneas. Sure, they aren't called Geomancy Xerneas, but you know the names. You know the faces. Shell Smashers, Max- Airstreamers, etc. They're everywhere.
Slow down. I get it. I recognize that there's some degree of skill to be had here. It's a different kind of skill, I suppose. The skill of recognizing when you're about to get absolutely destroyed if they happen to dynamax right now, and the skill of flipping a coin on whether they're gonna do it or not. (That's sarcasm, in case you couldn't tell.)
When compared to previous iterations of Random Battle, the number of situations where you quite literally, automatically lose has shot up. It's gone up.
Don't say that it hasn't, because it has.
And that represents a diminishment of skill.
A game full of good moves can be overturned by factors outside your control.
"But we've always dealt with that reality!"
Yes, we have, but it was a result of RNG. Nothing we can do about that.
Now, kicking over the table when you're losing, or securing an insurmountable lead with no preparation or thought?
It's been turned into a gameplay mechanic.
And we sure as hell can do something about that. It's called a ban.
Sure, it's my opinion, but at least it's got a principle behind it. The principle is that [The higher skilled player should be more likely to win a game.]
And, right now? Admittedly, the higher-skilled player IS still more likely to win a game.
That statement becomes MORE true, however, in a game without Dynamax.
First, a few notes.
"Dynamax is the gimmick of this generation, we didn't ban Megas or Z-moves, banning dynamax results in a watered-down version of gen 7 randbats"
None of these arguments have inherent value. So why waste your fingers?
"Random battle is the fun meta anyway, and Dynamax is fun"
Too subjective. Still no inherent value.
Random Battle, in recent generations, was not a luck-based game. Sure, any one game always could go south (and you know they did.)
But you know what says a lot more than one game? Hundreds of games. Thousands of games. You can't write off a high GXE as 'just luck'. It's an aggregate.
The fact that some players rose to 80%, even 90% GXE (never got to 90% myself) indicates that there was something they did differently than the riffraff. Something that took practice.
See, even if you think one match is about luck, the aggregate of hundreds or thousands of games is about skill.
What is skill?
In Random Battle, up until recently, skill was determined by different factors than you would find in tiered metagames like OU, and UU, etc.
In a tiered meta, part of skill is teambuilding skill- having a game plan that reflects an understanding of current metagame trends, i.e. understand what threats are common now and am I prepared for them.
On the other hand, one aspect of skill in Random Battle is putting together a plan on the spot. Right now. How many contingency plans do you have? Can you recognize your win condition? "I don't know their entire team, so what are the risks vs benefits of saccing the creature in front of me?"
You have to gather information as fast as possible, evaluate the risks, and sometimes, make a read based on limited information.
These are all elements that take practice.
And yes, sometimes you're forced into a 50-50 scenario because of a speed tie, or you aren't sure if they have a scarf or not, etc.
But again, in the aggregate, your analysis skill is really being tested.
Sometimes you lose because of Geomancy Xerneas having very few counters, but that's the way the cookie crumbles. Move onto the next battle.
---------
Now? With Dynamax?
There's a lot more Geomancy Xerneas. Sure, they aren't called Geomancy Xerneas, but you know the names. You know the faces. Shell Smashers, Max- Airstreamers, etc. They're everywhere.
Slow down. I get it. I recognize that there's some degree of skill to be had here. It's a different kind of skill, I suppose. The skill of recognizing when you're about to get absolutely destroyed if they happen to dynamax right now, and the skill of flipping a coin on whether they're gonna do it or not. (That's sarcasm, in case you couldn't tell.)
When compared to previous iterations of Random Battle, the number of situations where you quite literally, automatically lose has shot up. It's gone up.
Don't say that it hasn't, because it has.
And that represents a diminishment of skill.
A game full of good moves can be overturned by factors outside your control.
"But we've always dealt with that reality!"
Yes, we have, but it was a result of RNG. Nothing we can do about that.
Now, kicking over the table when you're losing, or securing an insurmountable lead with no preparation or thought?
It's been turned into a gameplay mechanic.
And we sure as hell can do something about that. It's called a ban.
Sure, it's my opinion, but at least it's got a principle behind it. The principle is that [The higher skilled player should be more likely to win a game.]
And, right now? Admittedly, the higher-skilled player IS still more likely to win a game.
That statement becomes MORE true, however, in a game without Dynamax.
I never thought I'd see the day when Smogon became so ban happy that they actually decided to start suspect testing randoms.
It's literally an rng tier. Leave it alone.
It's literally an rng tier. Leave it alone.
It's hilarious to me that pro keep jumped on this replay and tried to defend it as proof Dynamax isn't busted. After all, the Gengar player should have just Dynamaxed!
Yes, in order to not get 6-0'd you had to press the button and 6-0 right back. Or else you get 6-0'd. The only way to avoid the loss to the blatantly overpowered mechanic was to use your own blatantly overpowered mechanic.
Broken does not check broken. Plain and simple.
We've tried this mechanic. It doesn't work. In any tier. In any mode of (singles) play. Smogon isn't "ban happy"; this argument LOVES to pop up on suspects like these, and remains ignorant every single time. Read the description behind any ban vote; any quickban is given an adequate description as to why the action needed to be taken, and any suspect encourages active participation and ends with reasons as to why the decision was made to ban or keep.
And this is different to a Dynamax-less Meta how? You could be the best scout in the world, have all your merit badges and be personally recognised by Roger Mosby himself, but if you ain't roll a bulky Steel your prospects vs a BD Slurpuff are very grim. Heck, I've been beaten quite a lot of times just trying to stave that thing off forgetting the opponent still has 5 other Pokémon that aren't necessarily useless.
I found it easier to deal with Dmax vs Dmax than I did in Gens prior. Few Max Strikes cripples it and it won't get its HP back with Max Knuckles like it does with Drain Punch.
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People are also saying
I may not be able to vote, but I believe that Dynamax should be banned. It fundamentally changes what random battles are and requires a completely different skillset. On the other hand, I do believe people should have at least one game mode to play with this feature. It’s the defining feature of Galar after all. I believe that a new mode should be added to play with Dynamax while banning it from normal play. Perhaps a new random cup would suffice.
Will be voting do not ban.
While it is true that Dyna can make games a bit more swingy than usual, randbats have always been swingy anyway, and is more caused by team imbalances and the lack of team preview than good dynamaxers or shell smashers themselves. Really having no answers to certain mons does happen here and there, but very often, when I get swept by something of the sort, I did, in fact, have an answer to it or could have prevented it somehow - I just had no idea it would be that crucial and sac'd it or let it take too much chip somewhere along the way (or more often than not I simply misplayed, that thing noone likes to admit). And it is fine. Randbats having no team preview calls on a different skillset when it comes to battling - it makes a game a near-perfect information into a game of very, very limited info, and you have to make assumptions, take into account more variables, etc.
In fact, I think Dynamax particularly fits in this no team preview environment. It is sometimes simple to identify a threat on the other team very early in the match, and quickly remove it from the equation by trading your Dynamax for it before the other player has a chance to scout and actually understand how much of a wincon it is, in situations where you would otherwise get 6-0'd by a certain mon. Most obvious examples are Linoone/Slurpuff that can very easily sweep if you don't have any real answers to it, but it's not limited to offensive threats either, nor does it have to be as extrme as those two. Something as simple as a Ninetales against a team full of slow mons that almost all get ohko'd or 2hko'd by sunboosted fire blasts. I've had so many games that would be completely, utterly lost based on matchup alone that were able to be swung around with Dynamax, and catching those mons with their pants down before they can run all over my team, which they otherwise would have done in a Dyna-less world.
Dynamax just adds even more impredictability into all the variables you need to keep in mind, and I personally love it. I do not believe it to be 'overpowered' by any means. All those situations where people claim that there was 'nothing they could do' are, imo, mostly a result of inherent human bias that lets you remember all the times you get destroyed by it, but makes you forget all the times you could just dyna back and nullify it. Of course, certain blatantly OP sets exist. Gyarados, DD Zekrom, Necrozma-DM, you name it. But those are oddities that do need balancing and tuning down, similar to Geomancy Xerneas or Zacian-C or w/e, not problems with the mechanic itself.
And onto the final element that leads me to voting do not ban: Dynamax does require skill to be used properly. It has been shown time and time again that some players are able to handle and play around it way more proficiently than others. It may or may not be a healthy competitive mechanic, but randbats are not inherently competitive to the same extent as OU or whatever, so I don't think this matters as much as it does in other formats. If it was truly blatantly unsurmountably broken or a simple autowin button, the same players wouldn't keep achieving consistently good results. On a personal level, I haven't noticed any significant difference in my rank in the transition from gen 7 to gen 8 randbats. You could make the same argument about the lack of team preview - whether it is more competitive or not than having access to it is irrelevant, all I know is that it creates a different set of skills required to succeeed, and in a similar fashion to how I wouldn't want team preview in randbats, I also do not want Dynamax to go away. I want to see this different set of battling skills remain relevant here, in this little corner that isn't otherwise competitively relevant.
While it is true that Dyna can make games a bit more swingy than usual, randbats have always been swingy anyway, and is more caused by team imbalances and the lack of team preview than good dynamaxers or shell smashers themselves. Really having no answers to certain mons does happen here and there, but very often, when I get swept by something of the sort, I did, in fact, have an answer to it or could have prevented it somehow - I just had no idea it would be that crucial and sac'd it or let it take too much chip somewhere along the way (or more often than not I simply misplayed, that thing noone likes to admit). And it is fine. Randbats having no team preview calls on a different skillset when it comes to battling - it makes a game a near-perfect information into a game of very, very limited info, and you have to make assumptions, take into account more variables, etc.
In fact, I think Dynamax particularly fits in this no team preview environment. It is sometimes simple to identify a threat on the other team very early in the match, and quickly remove it from the equation by trading your Dynamax for it before the other player has a chance to scout and actually understand how much of a wincon it is, in situations where you would otherwise get 6-0'd by a certain mon. Most obvious examples are Linoone/Slurpuff that can very easily sweep if you don't have any real answers to it, but it's not limited to offensive threats either, nor does it have to be as extrme as those two. Something as simple as a Ninetales against a team full of slow mons that almost all get ohko'd or 2hko'd by sunboosted fire blasts. I've had so many games that would be completely, utterly lost based on matchup alone that were able to be swung around with Dynamax, and catching those mons with their pants down before they can run all over my team, which they otherwise would have done in a Dyna-less world.
Dynamax just adds even more impredictability into all the variables you need to keep in mind, and I personally love it. I do not believe it to be 'overpowered' by any means. All those situations where people claim that there was 'nothing they could do' are, imo, mostly a result of inherent human bias that lets you remember all the times you get destroyed by it, but makes you forget all the times you could just dyna back and nullify it. Of course, certain blatantly OP sets exist. Gyarados, DD Zekrom, Necrozma-DM, you name it. But those are oddities that do need balancing and tuning down, similar to Geomancy Xerneas or Zacian-C or w/e, not problems with the mechanic itself.
And onto the final element that leads me to voting do not ban: Dynamax does require skill to be used properly. It has been shown time and time again that some players are able to handle and play around it way more proficiently than others. It may or may not be a healthy competitive mechanic, but randbats are not inherently competitive to the same extent as OU or whatever, so I don't think this matters as much as it does in other formats. If it was truly blatantly unsurmountably broken or a simple autowin button, the same players wouldn't keep achieving consistently good results. On a personal level, I haven't noticed any significant difference in my rank in the transition from gen 7 to gen 8 randbats. You could make the same argument about the lack of team preview - whether it is more competitive or not than having access to it is irrelevant, all I know is that it creates a different set of skills required to succeeed, and in a similar fashion to how I wouldn't want team preview in randbats, I also do not want Dynamax to go away. I want to see this different set of battling skills remain relevant here, in this little corner that isn't otherwise competitively relevant.
This is a follow-up to my previous post, as I don't believe it represents my current thoughts.
Let me start this post that, after reading some of the replies to this thread, my opinion on Dynamaxing has changed for the worse. If I'm being completely honest, it's a broken mechanic. In previous generations, there were only a few broken setup sweepers, which meant both players were unlikely to get one in any given match. However, in this generation, pretty much any Pokemon with a decent offensive stat and a Flying move can Dynamax, mash the Max Airstream button. As Mariannabelle eloquently put it, Dynamaxing results in a ridiculous amount of auto-win situations when compared to previous generations. You know how Geomancy Xerneas was so broken that the set had to be banished to the shadow realm? In this meta, simply Dynamaxing can turn a variety of Pokemon into a threat on the level of that thing. The usual counters like Encore don't even work on Dynamaxed Pokemon!
A lot of people believe that there's another side to this coin, as the Dynamax mechanic can prevent a potential setup sweeper from destroying your team. However, there are two problems with this argument:
1. The opponent can easily Dynamax themselves and destroy your Pokemon anyway.
2. Dynamaxing in this situation means the opponent has an advantage over you, as you just forfeited your insane sweep button.
Either way, the opponent has just as much of an advantage as before. Dynamaxing doesn't fix the issue with getting swept in these situations. If anything, it only makes your problem worse, as the opponent always has the option of Dynamaxing, which means they become almost impossible to defeat.
I regret basing my initial argument on the fact that the meta without Dynamaxing would be stale. That doesn't really have any inherent value, and doesn't prove any points when it comes to the mechanic itself.
The "extra dimension" Dynamaxing adds is quite shallow. This extra dimension basically boils down to almost all of your attacking moves becoming objectively better. The most skill this involves is basically knowing if your Max Move has enough power to OHKO or 2HKO the opponent, and knowing if you need to Dynamax offensively if your opponent knows these things. These are not complicated things to learn, even to your typical lowish-mid level ladder player.
Finally, we get to the main argument of the people who wish to save Dynamaxing: it counters itself. First of all, just because a broken mechanic can defeat that same broken mechanic doesn't mean that it's not still broken. Second: does it, though? In this case, both players have wasted their Dynamax, and one gets the benefits of the Max Moves they used while the other doesn't, since it's likely a defensive Pokemon. This therefore results in the one who pulled the trigger first reaping the rewards.
On a more positive note, I think I underestimated the fun factor of a Gen 8 meta without Dynamaxing. I still do believe it would be rather boring and inferior to Gen 7's meta, but it would have its own unique charm to it, with the new Pokemon and the older ones getting brand new moves and sets.
In the current situation we're in, I personally think we should ban Dynamax. It's an unbalanced mechanic that shifts the ratio of skill to luck in luck's favor, and reducing the skill of a meta is never a good idea. It also means that the meta is much less fun to play.
However, in the long-term, there is another, far preferable option available: make two tiers, one with Dynamaxing and one without. Since the debate seems fairly split at the moment, this would appease both sides. Of course, making an entirely separate Gen 8 meta would take a long time, which is why I suggest this as merely a long-term solution. For now, we should probably just throw it in the trash.
Let me start this post that, after reading some of the replies to this thread, my opinion on Dynamaxing has changed for the worse. If I'm being completely honest, it's a broken mechanic. In previous generations, there were only a few broken setup sweepers, which meant both players were unlikely to get one in any given match. However, in this generation, pretty much any Pokemon with a decent offensive stat and a Flying move can Dynamax, mash the Max Airstream button. As Mariannabelle eloquently put it, Dynamaxing results in a ridiculous amount of auto-win situations when compared to previous generations. You know how Geomancy Xerneas was so broken that the set had to be banished to the shadow realm? In this meta, simply Dynamaxing can turn a variety of Pokemon into a threat on the level of that thing. The usual counters like Encore don't even work on Dynamaxed Pokemon!
A lot of people believe that there's another side to this coin, as the Dynamax mechanic can prevent a potential setup sweeper from destroying your team. However, there are two problems with this argument:
1. The opponent can easily Dynamax themselves and destroy your Pokemon anyway.
2. Dynamaxing in this situation means the opponent has an advantage over you, as you just forfeited your insane sweep button.
Either way, the opponent has just as much of an advantage as before. Dynamaxing doesn't fix the issue with getting swept in these situations. If anything, it only makes your problem worse, as the opponent always has the option of Dynamaxing, which means they become almost impossible to defeat.
I regret basing my initial argument on the fact that the meta without Dynamaxing would be stale. That doesn't really have any inherent value, and doesn't prove any points when it comes to the mechanic itself.
The "extra dimension" Dynamaxing adds is quite shallow. This extra dimension basically boils down to almost all of your attacking moves becoming objectively better. The most skill this involves is basically knowing if your Max Move has enough power to OHKO or 2HKO the opponent, and knowing if you need to Dynamax offensively if your opponent knows these things. These are not complicated things to learn, even to your typical lowish-mid level ladder player.
Finally, we get to the main argument of the people who wish to save Dynamaxing: it counters itself. First of all, just because a broken mechanic can defeat that same broken mechanic doesn't mean that it's not still broken. Second: does it, though? In this case, both players have wasted their Dynamax, and one gets the benefits of the Max Moves they used while the other doesn't, since it's likely a defensive Pokemon. This therefore results in the one who pulled the trigger first reaping the rewards.
On a more positive note, I think I underestimated the fun factor of a Gen 8 meta without Dynamaxing. I still do believe it would be rather boring and inferior to Gen 7's meta, but it would have its own unique charm to it, with the new Pokemon and the older ones getting brand new moves and sets.
In the current situation we're in, I personally think we should ban Dynamax. It's an unbalanced mechanic that shifts the ratio of skill to luck in luck's favor, and reducing the skill of a meta is never a good idea. It also means that the meta is much less fun to play.
However, in the long-term, there is another, far preferable option available: make two tiers, one with Dynamaxing and one without. Since the debate seems fairly split at the moment, this would appease both sides. Of course, making an entirely separate Gen 8 meta would take a long time, which is why I suggest this as merely a long-term solution. For now, we should probably just throw it in the trash.
- Status