Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

so on an unrelated note, how do y’all think gems would impact the current metagame? who would benefit the most from them, and would they be balanced in OU?
My answer may be biased, as I despise Z-moves in Generation 7 but I think that Gems would not be a very healthy addition a 50% boost to a move is pretty insane even if they're one-time use, I will provide examples:

+2 252 Atk Flying Gem Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko : 243-286 (86.4 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (A bit of chip and you get the KO)
+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Clefable: 412-486 (104.5 - 123.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Ground Gem Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 430-507 (109.1 - 128.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Dark Gem Atk Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 367-433 (95.8 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

These are a few and it goes to show that providing a 50% boost to any move you want is ridiculously strong, it kind of allows you to just pick and choose what you absolutely nuke and it's a large reason why I hated Z-moves in Gen 7
Obviously they aren't the same as you can keep Z-moves until you see a situation fit while Gems are automatically used upon clicking a move of their typing while Z-moves are exclusive to one pokemon per team but I think they have the same principle in what they do

So TLDR I think that they'll cause a lot of Offensive pokemon to be a lot harder to check, Hawlucha gets a really big boost and Garchomp gets an option for better breaking capabilities without having to take recoil damage form Leftovers
Kartana is cursed etc.

They'd be fine though if they were 30%, a one-time Life Orb is not really that good if I'm being honest
That's my rant on Gems
 
Do you guys think this generation defined ice as the best ofensive type in the game? If you stop to think about it, ice type mons ruled the role generation, from darmanitan-g to moody glalie to kyurem black to ninetales-a + arctozolt to kyurem to weavile, definetly the best generation for ice types of all time
Do you guys think is merit of the typing, meta or just a random case where a lot of strong mons happen to be ice types?
 
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Do you guys think this generation defined ice as the best ofensive type in the game? If you stop to think about it, ice type mons ruled the role generation, from darmanitan-g to moody glalie to kyurem black to ninetales-a + arctozolt to kyurem to weavile, definetly the best generation for ice types of all time
Relatively speaking this has been the strongest generation for ice types thus far, with Weavile's rather tumultuous OU history per generation being solidified with access to Triple Axel as well as mons like Kyurem getting freeze dry and of course hail becoming an actual playstyle and not just always screens+random chip (though veil offense is still better and more flexible than hard hail)

However, I wouldn't necessarily call ice the best offensive type in the game (though it's definitely one of the best) because being resisted by two of the best defensive types and team comp staples (steel and water) makes it a lot less spammable. I'd still consider ground better, since the threat of Earthquake spam is so high you'd better have a very good reason not to run a ground immune on a serious team, and dark+ghost are infamously spammable due to steel not resisting them. I'd say offensive ghost types have influenced teambuilding in a similar and arguably more intense way now that Lando of all mons sometimes has to act as a fake ghost resist among other things it's able to do for a team.

In Weavile's case (the inarguable ice type representative of Generation 8 Singles OU), I'm a bit more scared of its dark STAB than its ice STAB to be honest, though they complement each other quite well and infamously so lol. Though there really is something to be said about the utility ice currently provides with being able to revenge a few notable setup sweepers with Ice Shard but I guess that's kind of more meta dependent and not type chart dependent (which discussions should be BTW typing just does not exist in a vacuum)
 

viivian

OU's sweetheart
is a Tiering Contributor
Do you guys think this generation defined ice as the best ofensive type in the game? If you stop to think about it, ice type mons ruled the role generation, from darmanitan-g to moody glalie to kyurem black to ninetales-a + arctozolt to kyurem to weavile, definetly the best generation for ice types of all time
Do you guys think is merit of the typing, meta or just a random case where a lot of strong mons happen to be ice types?
i’d say the title of “best offensive type” goes to ground. it hits 5 types for super effective damage (including the nearly unkillable steel type), is resisted by only 3 types, and hits a lot for neutral damage. not to mention that ground hits a lot of common OU pokemon for super effective damage, such as heatran, melmetal, tapu koko, tyranitar, toxapex, and many more. it’s become a near necessity to have a ground move on teams because of its fantastic coverage. not to mention that pairing it with types such as fire, rock, dragon and ice makes it even harder to stop, as most pokemon that would switch into EQ would not want to take a stone edge or outrage in fear of getting 2HKOed on the switch. and those are only a few examples of types that ground pairs really well with, mind you. another great offensive type who gives ice a good run for its money is dark, whose STAB is incredibly spammable because no pokemon are immune to it and it has very spammable moves on both sides on the attacking spectrum, in knock off and dark pulse. dark types can simply come in, boost up and then spam their moves with impunity due to the limited amount of pokemon who want to switch into a knock off or dark pulse, due to their secondary effects. or alternatively, you can slap a choice item on them and spam dark moves to hell and back as your opponent scrambles to find a safe switch-in. weavile, ttar, hydrei, etc. are all dark types who do exactly that: boost up and spam their dark STAB or abuse a choice item to spam their dark STAB. and like ground, it isn’t resisted by steel, so it pairs very well with lots of different types, like fairy, ice, fire, flying, normal, and many more.

then there’s ice. while ice hits a lot of common OU pokemon very hard, like landorus-t, garchomp, zapdos, tornadus-t, and dragapult, it’s also walled by a lot more types than ground, including the numerous bulky waters and steels that litter the tier, like pex, bro, fini, melmetal, tran, scizor, just to name a few. being walled by steel makes it much harder for ice pair as well with most types due to the aforementioned resists in water and steel. this limits it to only 5 types that can help ice break past its resists, as opposed to the aforementioned ground and dark, which can exert huge amounts offensive pressure when paired with almost any type. ice is definitely a great offensive type nonetheless, and gen 8 was by far the most successful generation for ice types, but going as far to call it the best offensive type in the game is a bit of a stretch imo.

edit: added some more onto this bc i personally thought there was more that needed to be said
 
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Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
Do you guys think this generation defined ice as the best ofensive type in the game? If you stop to think about it, ice type mons ruled the role generation, from darmanitan-g to moody glalie to kyurem black to ninetales-a + arctozolt to kyurem to weavile, definetly the best generation for ice types of all time
Do you guys think is merit of the typing, meta or just a random case where a lot of strong mons happen to be ice types?
Nah. For me ghost is the best offensive type. Without Tyranitar to pursuit them, they've become a lot more viable, especially that clown that two shots everything that doesn't resist its shadow ball. If Dragapult didn't exist then Gengar and maybe even Aegislash would be a lot stronger in the tier. Anyway, the fact that the only normal type, Blissey, in the tier is not easy to put on most teams is a huge boon for ghosts and with Tyranitar or Weavile not on every team only makes them stronger, especially that clown beast

To be honest, I don't think ice is even that good on its own. It's the fact that the ice type mons are really good that makes the type seem good. I mean, with Weavile, it has a very strong speed and a second stab to compliment its ice typing against water and steels and Kyurem is Kyurem which destroys everything in sight because its fucking Kyurem. In fact, aside from Weavile and Black Kyurem, I don't think ice types have ever been prevalent in ou and for good reason. Stealth rock, Heatran, steels, blah blah blah
 
Nah. For me ghost is the best offensive type. Without Tyranitar to pursuit them, they've become a lot more viable, especially that clown that two shots everything that doesn't resist its shadow ball. If Dragapult didn't exist then Gengar and maybe even Aegislash would be a lot stronger in the tier. Anyway, the fact that the only normal type, Blissey, in the tier is not easy to put on most teams is a huge boon for ghosts and with Tyranitar or Weavile not on every team only makes them stronger, especially that clown beast

To be honest, I don't think ice is even that good on its own. It's the fact that the ice type mons are really good that makes the type seem good. I mean, with Weavile, it has a very strong speed and a second stab to compliment its ice typing against water and steels and Kyurem is Kyurem which destroys everything in sight because its fucking Kyurem. In fact, aside from Weavile and Black Kyurem, I don't think ice types have ever been prevalent in ou and for good reason. Stealth rock, Heatran, steels, blah blah blah
Galar Darm in early gen8 before its ban, kyurem for a large part of gen8, Weavile for a large part of the CT, of course KyuB before its ban, and let's not forget hail rising to prominence this gen. There's also lesser seen stuff like Cloyster on HO. Ice has had it pretty good this gen and shows what happens when you design a Mon with such a type properly.

Honestly saying stuff like "oh it's their secondary traits that make them good not the ice type" when in fact it's a combination of traits, ice being one of them, almost feels like shifting the goals to not acknowledge the huge generation ice types have had. Ice is a potent offensive type, especially in tandem with other secondary types as it complements a large amount of types well offensively. Are there a LOT of ice types in OU atm? No. But ice is the rarest type in the game so surprise surprise.
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
Galar Darm in early gen8 before its ban, kyurem for a large part of gen8, Weavile for a large part of the CT, of course KyuB before its ban, and let's not forget hail rising to prominence this gen. There's also lesser seen stuff like Cloyster on HO. Ice has had it pretty good this gen and shows what happens when you design a Mon with such a type properly.

Honestly saying stuff like "oh it's their secondary traits that make them good not the ice type" when in fact it's a combination of traits, ice being one of them, almost feels like shifting the goals to not acknowledge the huge generation ice types have had. Ice is a potent offensive type, especially in tandem with other secondary types as it complements a large amount of types well offensively. Are there a LOT of ice types in OU atm? No. But ice is the rarest type in the game so surprise surprise.
Oh. Wasn't here before crown tundra. Forgot about galarian Darmanitan

What I meant about that secondary trait is that ice type alone isn't that great with their near non existent defensive utility and multiple weaknesses. That's why I literally said that ice seems good because the ice type mons are really good
 
Oh. Wasn't here before crown tundra. Forgot about galarian Darmanitan

What I meant about that secondary trait is that ice type alone isn't that great with their near non existent defensive utility and multiple weaknesses. That's why I literally said that ice seems good because the ice type mons are really good
Shouldn't that logic apply to all types than? I doubt ghost would seem very good if our best ghost types were stuff like gorgheist or Frosslass now would they.
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
Shouldn't that logic apply to all types than? I doubt ghost would seem very good if our best ghost types were stuff like gorgheist or Frosslass now would they.
It does apply to all types and not just ice. Ghost has actual utility with their fighting immunity and is a very spammable type as I said in the first post

Also, I think you're all missing the point I made. A pokemon consists of types, ability and stats and it is that combination that determines if a mon is good or not. I'm just saying that ice is just an objectively bad type but ice type pokemon can be good because of the stats they have like Weavile or Kyurem. I mean, if you look up worst types in pokemon, ice is usually at the bottom or close to the bottom on every single list. I'm just talking about types alone and not which pokemon have those types since the original question I gave my opinion to asked about offensive types. The story would be a hell of a lot longer if the discussion was about which mons does one think is the best offensively rn
 
Also, I think you're all missing the point I made. A pokemon consists of types, ability and stats and it is that combination that determines if a mon is good or not. I'm just saying that ice is just an objectively bad type but ice type pokemon can be good because of the stats they have like Weavile or Kyurem. I mean, if you look up worst types in pokemon, ice is usually at the bottom or close to the bottom on every single list. I'm just talking about types alone and not which pokemon have those types since the original question I gave my opinion to asked about offensive types. The story would be a hell of a lot longer if the discussion was about which
Except you can't judge a type by itself. There's a lot more nuance than that. Ice is defensively lacking and thus a bad defensive type but offensively potent, hitting much neutrally and pairing well with other types. Thus it is a strong offensive type. Thus offensive ice types tend to do well. This is basically the opposite of steel, which is a bad offensive type but strong defensive type (the strongest defense type actually but details). And beyond that, the stats and movepools contribute as well. Also bluntly, whatever some random internet lists say about "worst types in Pokemon" is completely irrelevant.


does apply to all types and not just ice. Ghost has actual utility with their fighting immunity and is a very spammable type as I said in the first post
It's more of a situationally useful trait because you won't consistently switch into a fighting type with a ghost for risk of a secondary attack. And spammability, ice is quite spammable. Especially as its often complimented by coverage or secondary stab. It's one reason it's such a potent offensive type.
 
Guys i’m sorry about the confusion, I was just trying to start a discusson on how ice type mons have been pretty dominant the whole gen(darm, both kyurems, weavile, hail) and how being ice type helped those mons in fulgilling their roles, like it was said, this was the best generation for ofensive ice types as show by track record
 
Guys i’m sorry about the confusion, I was just trying to start a discusson on how ice type mons have been pretty dominant the whole gen(darm, both kyurems, weavile, hail) and how being ice type helped those mons in fulgilling their roles, like it was said, this was the best generation for ofensive ice types as show by track record
Well it's a super interesting point. I hadn't thought about just how defining they've been. Obviously freeze dry and HDB has boosted them hugely. Freeze dry feels like an excellent evolution on the classic bolt beam whilst HDB has given a new consistency and ease of use to the ice types.
But it also speaks to the power of ice types that non boots sets are so potent between Kyurem's specs/scarf/Never melt ice and Weavile's band sets. I also feel like they've benefited from the strength of their partners, particularly defoggers and other brutal attackers such as Urshifu, Dragapult and Zeraora. Ice types on the special and physical side have great partners who are great for overwhelming defensive checks and counters overtime. Heatran, buzzwole, blissey, melmetal, ferrothorn they all struggle to keep up with the brutal onslaught of offensive cores that ice types can fit into. These teammates also frequently pack pivot moves that make it easier to bring frail ice types in.
I Didn't play pre-tundra but I did get to experience Kyurem's meta defining abilities. Kyurem in particular displays how versatile ice has been this generation, an ice type with good coverage can be the offensive glue of a team. Weavile is displaying it again with its variety of sets, once these offensive ice types are on the field they exert huge pressure forcing the opponent to make risky decisions that can eat up their offensive momentum or just lose a pokemon.
I also feel that the strength of ice types have played a part in minimising the power of traditional stall teams. Kyurem was obviously a stall killer with Arctozolt able to somewhat do this now. Weavile's ability to spam knock off can VERY quickly wear down stall teams.
 

viivian

OU's sweetheart
is a Tiering Contributor
can i post a tier list in this thread? i decided to go ahead and make a tier list ranking the offensive capabilities of every type, and i want to make sure if it’s permissible to post it here.
 
Teleport is just like any slow pivot, aside from being the slowest pivot available. There has been slow uturn, volt switch and the like uses across the generations. Its not hard to punish especially if the opponent becomes too comfortable and over reliant on it.
The problem is it's pretty much guaranteed to go last and it doesn't make you take chip damage. It's also a slow pivot move on regenerator mons with recovery, something we've never seen. I gotta agree with Sensory that in general, it's an uncompetitive and janky move. Not to say it's broken.
 

viivian

OU's sweetheart
is a Tiering Contributor
If you do, please put it in spoilers so it doesn’t take up too much space
ah, thanks for letting me know. that being said, here’s my list on every type ranked based on their offensive presence, let me know if you disagree or what you’d add on.

202E7A19-667F-4647-B357-90897374D755.jpeg

edit: finally figured out how to use the spoiler tag on images correctly, so now it doesn’t look as weird
 
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The problem is it's pretty much guaranteed to go last and it doesn't make you take chip damage. It's also a slow pivot move on regenerator mons with recovery, something we've never seen. I gotta agree with Sensory that in general, it's an uncompetitive and janky move. Not to say it's broken.
What you're describing is teleport+ regenerator and slack off.

Blissey and Clefable are teleport users easier to exploit.
 
The problem is it's pretty much guaranteed to go last and it doesn't make you take chip damage. It's also a slow pivot move on regenerator mons with recovery, something we've never seen. I gotta agree with Sensory that in general, it's an uncompetitive and janky move. Not to say it's broken
It's not only found on regenerator Pokemon. It's that Regen Pokemon tend to use it best. As for the rest, like others have stated, teleport is not some riskless free move that one can just throw out whenever. A good player knows how to punish the use of the move, especially if the opponent uses it so much they become predictable. in fact a Slowbro vs a LandoT is potentially toxic bait if it teleports out. Not to mention it can be entirely shut down by taunt.

Uncompetitive elements tend to reduce the skill level, which teleport does not do. It just adds another element to the pivot game and while it certainly can be annoying for newer players who don't know how to properly deal with it yet, as you play more you become accustomed to it more.
 
It's based on purely offensive typings, as in how dangerous or valuable they are when offensively specced for STAB or coverage, assuming all are held to negligible defensive utility. Nobody who's serious would put steel near the bottom as an overall typing do not worry
I am not a very good reader lol my fault

one thing I’d like to note is that I don’t think poison belongs in the bottom tier. The fact that poison moves have a chance of poisoning can make them really tough to switch into. Steel types are rough, but that could apply to the majority of types and most poisons have coverage to get around this
 
Got a clown question/discussion

How is everyone limiting Blace:Blacephalon:?

This is the mon that to me feels like the most suffocating to play against right now, but nobody is talking about it so I assume it is me being a bad player.

My gameplan against on standard teams without a ghost resist is literally hazards plus doubling into faster threats if it is specs and using more standard walls like pex for scarf.

I really just like having band Ttar to turn this stupid mon into free (not just getting tricked specs certainly) entry for the **best** band user in the tier.

What other means of counterplay are there?
 
Best offensive type in gen 8? Ghost. How many Ghosts have been banned or suspected from different tiers just because "Shadow Ball too strong". There's like two things in OU that can consider themselves switch ins. Tyranitar, who Gamefreak in all their infinite wisdom nerfed out of Pursuit, and Blissey who is passive and easily exploited.

Ghost is so stupid that you can literally just run Blaceph and Pult on the same team and sometimes auto win due to raw Shadow Ball spam. Not only did Gamefreak remove Pursuit and nerf Steels out of a Ghost resist, they even added one of the strongest, most spammable physical moves in the game, Poltergeist. Thankfully there aren't many OU viable physical Ghosts but anyone who's tried switching in on A-Marowak in TR knows how brutal it can be.

Ghost is the only type in the game where it's not unusual for the opponent's team to simply lack a single resist outside maybe Weavile. Look at what happened to Spectrier. Literally all that shit did was click Shadow Ball.

Imo Ghost is the best offensive type because you can get banned or suspected if your entire offensive movepool consists of a single 80 bp STAB move with no real coverage. I don't think any other type has that kind of brain dead spam.
 
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