Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]

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As such, I would like you to not make comments about the team as if claiming it somehow invalidates the work put in by Sandaconda in these replays, as that would simply be faulty logic.
I'm sorry but I should be allowed to make a comment about the team. Yes, there are other cheese picks in C- like Polteageist, Hatterene, Shedinja, etc... but these have seen success on their respective archetypes (PsySpam, Trick Room, Stall). Glare / Thunder Wave Spam is not an archetype. It's just a shitty gimmick.

Let me get this straight that no one is stopping you from using Sandaconda but ranking it on the VR is a different story. It's misleading to new players who use the OP as a resource to get into the tier. Sandaconda has no real use over something more reliable like Hippowdon or Garchomp outside of your specific team where you just click Glare and fish for flinches the whole game.

Please don't rank this.
 
I'm sorry but I should be allowed to make a comment about the team. Yes, there are other cheese picks in C- like Polteageist, Hatterene, Shedinja, etc... but these have seen success on their respective archetypes (PsySpam, Trick Room, Stall). Glare / Thunder Wave Spam is not an archetype. It's just a shitty gimmick.

Let me get this straight that no one is stopping you from using Sandaconda but ranking it on the VR is a different story. It's misleading to new players who use the OP as a resource to get into the tier. Sandaconda has no real use over something more reliable like Hippowdon or Garchomp outside of your specific team where you just click Glare and fish for flinches the whole game.

Please don't rank this.
How would have Sandaconda been any less efficient on another, more serious team ? It doesn't require any specific support to fill its role, thus the team it is featured in should be irrelevant to see whether or not it has merit. Those are just the replays I happen to have at hand, but any team can appreciate para spread, not just more gimmicky ones like the paraflinch team in the replays. This is why Thunder Wave is also a popular option on mons like Clefable, Ferro, Melmetal, Blissey, and others, and why Glare is sometimes run on Zydog, or why people use Druddigon just because of its access to the move + SR. Just because this team in particular was ENTIRELY based on para flinch and luck gimmicks shouldn't distract you from the work Sandaconda on its own put in, especially when I specifically labeled each replay to emphasize on the role Sandaconda alone played in every game. You claim conda has no niche over Hippo and Chomp but my posts explains at length why I think that's not the case. Try answering to the points if you believe I am wrong to say so, not just throw the whole thing out the window because the replays happen to feature a "gimmicky team" without giving any real arguments.
 

Ehmcee

A Spoopy Ghost
is a Pre-Contributor
View attachment 463791 UR -> C-/C

Sandaconda is a pokemon that is generally overlooked, mostly because it suffers from the comparison to (mostly) better grounds like Lando-T, Garchomp or Hippowdon. However, after playing with it for a bit, I feel like it has a few qualities that set it apart from other defensive grounds and may justify using it on certain teams.

The first and most relevant of these is access to one of Pokemon's most useful support moves; Glare. Glare is a normal-type move with 100% accuracy which inflicts paralysis, simple as that. It's a very free to click move in most situations since it can hit anything but electric types, and is a much more crippling status than Lando/Chomp/Hippo's usual Toxic, especially when playing against more offensive oriented teams as being paralyzed is often equivalent to being dead for a sweeper or breaker. While it can still be blocked by electric types, neither Zeraora, Koko nor Magnezone are able to stay in or threaten Sandaconda with anything, and are at risk of being KO'd should they mispredict and switch in on earthquake, which leaves Zapdos as the only mon able to prevent you from spreading paralysis effectively. All in all, it's a much stronger alternative to something like Thunder Wave or Stun Spore and was part of the reason Zygarde was so oppressive and had to be banned.

The second of those qualities lies in one of its abilities, Shed Skin. It grants its user a 30% chance to be cured from status at the end of each turn. Shed Skin is very rarely seen ability in OU, as it is very poorly distributed, Sandaconda being one of the only mons with the defensive statline to justify using it. In practice, it allows Sandaconda to win in the long run versus other status reliant defensive mons such as Tankchomp, Hippo, Toxapex, or even Chansey in the lategame just to state a few. Not fearing burn or toxic poisoning means that Sandaconda is a mon that is quite hard to make progress against defensively, which means that to force it out your opponents will have to expose one of their breakers or sweepers to glare, which as mentioned earlier, are completely ruined by paralysis. This ability also helps turn Rest into a semi-reliable recovery move, as you have good chances to wake up immediately after using it, or only after 1 turn, which makes Sandaconda more durable in the long run than Tankchomp and Landorus-T. The set I've been running lately which as convinced me that this mon could have a niche in OU is a set that uses this ability:

View attachment 463791 Sandaconda @ Leftovers
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Glare
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake

Overall, a pretty reliable defensive rocker, which can check a variety of mons such as Heatran, Volcarona, Tapu Koko, Zerarora, Slowking-Galar, Tyranitar, Excadrill, Dracozolt, and to a lesser extent Blacephalon and Dragapult. It's job is mostly to get rocks up and spread paralysis, being able to come in safely against defensive or utility mons like Ferrothorn, Clef, the aforementioned defensive ground trio, Corviknight, Tornadus-T, Chansey/Blissey. I prefer running specially defensive EVs as the team I was using it with was pretty weak to pult, but a physically defensive set would also be reasonably conceivable, further reinforcing's Sandaconda's already impressive base 125 physdef and allowing it to take on other mons, although its type makes it less desirable for that role, mostly because Weavile, Urshifu-R and Kartana all can hit it with a supereffective STAB.

Sandaconda's other viable ability Sand Spit is also worth mentioning, although I have tested it far less extensively than the set show above. It's an ability which starts a Sandstorm after its user is hit by a damaging move. This allows Sandaconda to fill the role of a secondary sand setter in a sand team, and when equipped with an Eject Button, it can force a momentum gain on your side by starting Sand and immediately pivoting into Excadrill or Dracozolt, especially if sent out on an opposing u-turn. Here's the set I used when testing this variant:

View attachment 463791 Sandaconda @ Eject Button
Ability: Sand Spit
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Coil/Stealth Rock
- Rest/Glare
- Rock Slide/Body Press/Sleep Talk

This time, I'm running a physdef set, because being on a sand team means being coupled with either Hippowdon or Tyranitar, which are both more capable at taking special hits. This set also can run Coil and Rest, which gives it the potential to sweep late game once opposing special attackers have been dealt with or sufficiently crippled. I won't go to great length describing this one, as I haven't tested it as much as the other variant, but I've generally had a good experience with it, especially with the Sand Spit + Eject Button combo allowing you to go for very aggressive plays as it guarantees a safe pivot into your desired sand sweeper.

As customary, here are a few replays demonstrating Sandaconda being used in practice (all of these demonstrate the first set, not the Sand Spit one). While all of these show Sandaconda being used on a pretty unserious team, they were all recorded at a pretty significative elo and do a good job of showing Sandaconda's usefulness indepently from its teammates. As such, I would like you to not make comments about the team as if claiming it somehow invalidates the work put in by Sandaconda in these replays, as that would simply be faulty logic.


If you've made it this far, thanks for your time, hope you had a good read and have a nice day :)
I think one of the largest issues with relying on rest for recovery on a ground type is that one of the most popular electric types: Tapu Koko, just completely invalidates your recovery through electric terrain. If we compare Sandaconda to the ground type that most closely ressembles it's role, I find the pros of running Hippowdon to be almost always better.

:hippowdon: pros:

  • Has reliable recovery (not stopped by eterrain or being unable to move for some turns)
  • Sets sand more reliably
  • Has much better bulk (72/125/70 for Sandaconda, 108/118/72 for Hippo)
  • Can phase pokemon out with whirlwind
:sandaconda: pros:
  • Has Glare
  • Has Shed Skin (able to take on status)
I don't think it's worth adressing Coil sets, because Landorus or Garchomp can fulfill the role of setup sweeper/breaker infinitely better with their speed tiers.

Ultimately, if you want to spread para and be immune to status, just run a twave clef alongside a hippo. I understand that role compression can seem nice into a pokemon, but I don't think Sandaconda has a particular noteworthy niche in this metagame when there are so many better ground types to run.
 
Seconding the Sandaconda rejection, and to add to it: both paralysis and Shed Skin require a substantial amount of luck to be on the user's side in order to be effective, which you should never force yourself to rely on. I'll take not-Rest recovery and better bulk over that any day.
 
snip snop
This is a pretty good post, which sums up well the balance of pros and cons of picking hippo vs conda, and makes a good point. There are just a few little things that I would adress, but I otherwise agree that on most teams Hippo would be a better choice, hence why I'm only making a nom for C rank, and am not claiming that it should be considered better or even equal to the big 3 OU grounds. That being said, here's what I disagree with:
I think one of the largest issues with relying on rest for recovery on a ground type is that one of the most popular electric types: Tapu Koko, just completely invalidates your recovery through electric terrain.
While it's true that eterrain could get in the way of using Rest to recover, doing so requires you to predict well, as switching in Koko on Sandaconda is hazardous, and because you also can't stay in unless it is already very low, switching out is also hazardous, because as most teams do not run multiple eletrics, you are likely to let a free glare go off, so the situation is not as clearly disadvantageous as this sentence may make it seem.
:hippowdon: pros:
  • Can phase pokemon out with whirlwind
For this one, I'd just like to state that whrilwind hippo has seen a steep decline and is not as relevant as it was before. The most recent usage stats show Hippo only carries whirlwind about 9.5% of the time in games above the 1825 cutoff. This might be explained by the fact that slotting whirlwind on Hippo can be tough, as you really need toxic to be able to win longterm vs set up sweepers like chomp, and whirlwind tends to only delay the problem. Toxic is not perfect either, as you will often need to let hippo or other mons take big hits from opposing sweepers or breakers to wait out for poison damage, which may leave you open to being swept by something else. Sandaconda, being able to definitively cripple opposing mons with glare, does not suffer from such a problem, and is significantly harder to set-up on than Hippo because of this.
just run a twave clef alongside a hippo.
This one is really minor but, Sandaconda being sensibly more bulky than clef on the physical side helps it paralyze some mons that clef couldn't. It's also very important that glare can paralyze grounds and never misses, making it quite a bit better than clef for this purpose specifically.
Seconding the Sandaconda rejection, and to add to it: both paralysis and Shed Skin require a substantial amount of luck to be on the user's side in order to be effective, which you should never force yourself to rely on. I'll take not-Rest recovery and better bulk over that any day.
Mons is a game of probability at its core. While getting full paras is up to luck, the speed reduction from paralysis isn't, and the mere chance that a mon might be unable to act even just one fourth of the time often makes it very hard for that mon to do it's job as intended in practice. The objective of spreading paralysis is not to get 10 full paras in a row and dry sweep with Sandaconda, of course, but to increase the probability that opposing mons will fall apart. It is a net positive. I will agree that shed skin + rest can be iffy in some situations, but it is generally safe to go for against more defensive mons (or teams in general) as they will have a hard time punishing you even if you wake up. Besides, a 1/3 chance to cure status after each turn still means Conda can absorb opposing status, which is already a nice perk in itself, even if you will not be going for instant and free full recovery every time. This is a good time to also remind you that one of the best moves in mons, scald, is so good because of a 30% chance to burn. The point is not to get lucky every time, but to have the free added probability to.
 
The Sandaconda VR allegations piqued my interest so I've been testing it for the last couple days, building a new team with it every day. I have a couple thoughts on its viability and check if he was really next up out of Atlanta.


Seconding the Sandaconda rejection, and to add to it: both paralysis and Shed Skin require a substantial amount of luck to be on the user's side in order to be effective, which you should never force yourself to rely on. I'll take not-Rest recovery and better bulk over that any day.
Sandaconda is not broken by toxic without shed skin activating; rest gives it a probability-independent solution. When it activates to remove toxic it’s beneficial, but if it doesn’t activate it’s not fatally detrimental. On top of that, the probability it does activate is pretty favorable; no activation for 3 turns has a slightly less than 29% chance of occurring. As a result, this benefit is statistically likely and happens frequently enough to give Sandaconda consistent upside without being dependent on RNG.

:hippowdon: pros:

  • Has reliable recovery (not stopped by eterrain or being unable to move for some turns)
  • Sets sand more reliably
  • Has much better bulk (72/125/70 for Sandaconda, 108/118/72 for Hippo)
  • Can phase pokemon out with whirlwind
Hippowdown has very reliable recovery, which is supplemented by its very high defensive stats. Comparatively calling Sandaconda’s recovery inconsistent, however, personally seems a little inaccurate. My personal biggest criticism of Conda's recovery is that its lower defensive stats make recovery less meaningful than it would with defensive stats like Hippo's. Setting electric terrain to prevent rest is theoretically a complete counter, but in practice it requires finding a way to bring in Koko on Sandaconda every 5 turns.

Misty terrain is by far the most notable practical counter, with Fini being able to switch without fear of glare. Although Fini is an undeniably valid check, this is similarly true for other bulky ground types, particularly Tankchomp and Hippo. Taunt CM Fini prevents Hippowdon recovery, and sets up on most walls in general; while other defensive pokemon aren’t prevented from using their recovery moves by misty terrain, they are by its setter. As a result, Sandaconda isn’t uniquely weak.

Whirlwind does not particularly benefit Hippowdon, and it’s seen a massive decline in the set’s usage as a result. Without going too much into it, it’s rarely worth running whirlwind on Hippo, and Hippo isn’t the ideal whirlwind user if your team is looking for a phaser.

While the two are barely comparable in terms of splashability, Sandaconda’s utility moves are similar to Ferro’s. Defensive mons have difficulty with paralysis, and are often eventually overwhelmed by full paralysis after enough turns happen for it to be an inevitability. It also comes in on a lot of 3HKOs and is able to find turns to set SR or glare pretty easily. Obviously Ferrothorn has a much wider movepool and provides much more than just para and hazards, but in my testing I just found their similarity kinda unexpected so it's worth a mention ig idk.

Ultimately, if you want to spread para and be immune to status, just run a twave clef alongside a hippo. I understand that role compression can seem nice into a pokemon, but I don't think Sandaconda has a particular noteworthy niche in this metagame when there are so many better ground types to run.
Although these sets are undeniably strong, Sandaconda still has enough distinctive upsides to make a case for its use in the right team. Primarily, glare is a far better move than t-wave. Team structures that benefit from spreading paralysis greatly appreciate this niche, particularly in dealing with faster ground type threats such as Excadrill and SD Garchomp. Independent of glare’s advantages, Sandaconda’s role compression is valuable in teambuilder as it opens up more possibilities for its surrounding structure, with toxic crippling other fat ground types without cleric support.

Alright now some extra personal observations. Expanding on Delibird Heart’s list of advantages, Sandaconda has natural synergy with mons found on a variety of archetypes. Melmetal, for example, fits on pretty much every structure and assists in Conda’s weakness to Fini, while benefiting from its improved ability to spread paralysis. Wallbreakers such as Nidoking, Volcanion, and Bisharp become viable late-game cleaners if opposing teams are paralysed and cannot outrun them. The spashability of its core pairings makes Sandaconda valuable on a variety of teams, particularly finding a home on balanced squads.

There are still notable unique disadvantages that come with its use though - in testing I found Zapdos to be a big problem (it’s not ideal to have your ground type struggle against the most common electric type in the tier lmao). Given the right support (such as toxic washtom, spdef Heatran, glowking, secondary ground type, etc.), however, the matchup isn’t a big problem with some practice. I was testing in the 1600-1700 mid ladder and I found that common defensive Zapdos-core partners like Landorus and Garchomp were able to be crippled by glare, while SR were relatively easy to get up without eating a hurricane.

Another really notable general weakness of a ground type with paralysis spreading is the sacrifice of toxic. Although this sounds obvious, the reliable chip damage of toxic is insanely valuable in every matchup. While paralysis’ speed reduction and full para chance are great, the lack of residual damage has to be justifiable in context of team structure. All other meta-relevant ground types manage to quite easily fit the utility of toxic into their sets, but Sandaconda’s move slots are much less flexible.

As a result, Sandaconda obviously doesn’t fit on every team. Zapdos and Washtom being so problematic significantly narrows its niche in teambuilder, and it isn’t even close to as splashable as the tier-defining ground types. That said, the combination of glare utility, unique near-immunity to toxic, and complete recovery through rest carve out a definite niche for Sandaconda in the OU meta The flexibility of useful partners, further, makes this niche far wider than I would have thought before testing.

In conclusion, idk he kinda valid.

1668370744627.png


Sorry for the wall of text idk how to format and ion post on here much, but this really caught my eye. Thanks for reading!
 
I'm sorry but I should be allowed to make a comment about the team. Glare / Thunder Wave Spam is not an archetype.
Since some people didn't like the first team I posted replays with, I took the time to use Sandaconda on a more serious team on the ladder, with which I collected more replays. Here's what I got:

Sandaconda wins lead matchup vs torn and puts in massive work
Sandaconda takes advantage of Blissey and guarantees a win in the late game with glare
Sandaconda cripples ferro to help melm break then beats zeraora and cripples Hydreigon to ensure a win
Sandaconda cripples 3 mons and beats tran
Sandaconda cripples heatran and buzzwole, allowing Melmetal and Weavile to win in the late game
Sandaconda saves the game by crippling dnite and taking on pult
Sandaconda cripples gastro, lele, and mandibuzz, allowing it to sweep in the late game
Sandaconda cripples 4 mons, allowing the rest of the team to win easily (vs Minimax AI so might not be as indicative as the others)

Here are two additional replays in which I ended up losing due to misplays but where Sandaconda still put in enough work that I thought I should put them out here:
Sandaconda cripples enemy's defensive core + would be sweeper hydreigon, leading to a very close endgame where I could have won if i just eq'd instead of resting for no reason
Another close call where conda prevented the rest of the team from being crippled by ferrothorn while also repeatedly forcing ttar out

Hopefully these will do a better job of convincing you than the previous, admittedly cheesy, replays.
 
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Sage

From the River To the Sea
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some post SCL updates I think should happen

:rillaboom: A- to A

Rilla has more than proved its staying power as better than a one trick pony, fitting on all sorts of teams from bulky protect spam balances where it enables stuff like Melmetal and Heatran, to HO where it can be teched as a Tornadus remover. With just SD and Grassy Glide you have an extremely functional mon leaving it up to the player to choose which of Superpower, Knock, Wood Hammer, Drain Punch etc they require for their team context. Versatility of the item slot between the classic Leftovers / LO and the more niche things like Coba Berry and Terrain Extender helps this aspect of it too.

:hippowdon: B to B+ / A-

Way too consistent of a wall, it lets some dangerous things in but is a ground type with recovery that can check non-Hydro Pult a hugely unique trait in the builder. Natural physical bulk lets it soft check a lot of threats on that spectrum even without investment and lets it do things like Toxic / EQ +2 Garchomp to get it in Ice Shard Range, Toxic non Wood Hammer Rillaboom in a pinch, and eat Boots Weavile Axel to do heavy damage back with EQ. Overall it trades far better than you would expect your bulky Ground with recovery too in matchups where it might get overwhelmed if played passively. Would settle for a B+ raise if two ranks is too drastic but it again has showed up far too much for its current rank, also seeing a lot of play in OLT on Magnezone fats and other semi stallish teams.

:buzzwole: A to A-

Buzz is still fine but the SPL meta was definitely the peak of its surge, where teams were really struggling to handle Kartana and Weav and it had some level of surprise factor with its coverage variance. Don't think what it brings in the builder is as appreciated currently where offensive sets struggle to switch into Double Iron Bash and bulky sets can be statused, its awkwardness as a Melmetal response is tricky. Clef is also back to top 3 level usage which is never a good sign for it even though it technically has ways around it.

:corviknight: A- to A

Corv has come back in a nice way, I think its being played better in game overall and the value of being a Steel with recovery into Lele is better than ever, with most opting for Focus Blast to deal with Melmetal over Thunderbolt. U-turn has been used to get a lot of dangerous breakers in and lets it skirt around matchups with Electric-types that would otherwise use it for entry. Its usage is also just too high for its current rank, and I think its consistency in the builder should be rewarded.

:victini: A- to B+

Struggles to make progress consistently enough to warrant being in the A ranks anymore. The typing checking Lele is really nice and there are some cool tech options, I'm fond of Encore to help deal with bulky setup, but it just doesn't do enough damage and flopping into SpD Garchomp all game is a common sight. Scarf Gambit is still kinda cool although it sucks that Pult's typing makes it a plausible switch into Tini.

:pelipper: :barraskewda: :seismitoad: down a rank

Rain is the worst its been in awhile, commonly running into negative matchups versus current staples and just overall being inconsistent. Pelipper has a cute Specs set which still has some merit but it's not an A ranks worthy one, otherwise all of the main abusers should be shifted downwards to reflect Rain's struggles.

:rotom-wash: :zapdos: Same Rank (A or A+)

I currently think Rotom is the strongest electric we have access to, with the growing danger of NP sets and how annoying its pivot set can be to put down. Zapdos still has some great attributes with Static always being relevant and Hurricane being harder to switch into than Hydro Pump when unboosted, but the gap between them is not big enough to have them in seperate categories.
 
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