Volcarona feels really underwhelming to me compared to the rest of the mons in tier 4. This mon is a very distant third in terms of special attacking fire attackers and doesn't really get much out of its bug type. It gets used significantly less than other mons in tier 4, with sub 2% usage across the last four rounds of osdt. It also struggles into the common rain and semiroom archetypes. Volcarona has some valuable qualities, but I don't think it provides enough to a team to be ranked in tier 4.
5 -> 4
Another case of I don't think this mon fits along with the same Tier 5 mons. It's not the easiest thing to fit in the world but it's really good at what it does, with that being outspeeding the entire metagame while being an extremely strong offensive threat. It also helps how it doesn't die to the most common priority attack in Grassy Glide (although it does take a lot still). It being able to pivot out with a really strong U-Turn also helps a ton, as it prevents it from being as much of a momentum sink in most situations. All of those qualities make it useful on both certain semiroom teams and Psyspam, as both the pivoting and immediately outspeeding anything without a Choice Scarf is extremely helpful for those teams, as well as Pheromosa being really hard to stop with priority out of the picture (for psyspam specifically).
However I think Pheromosa is considerably better than a lot of the Tier 4 mons and you see it commonly used on a few archetypes that are popular right now including:
and here's my own custom build from OSDT r10 + top 32 that won games vs Nido-Rus and Lemurro respectively, just to give it a shoutout :P
Pheromosa is a glass cannon that struggles to switch in on virtually any opposing attack, so using Pheromosa takes some careful thought and team design (generally you want to lead with Pheromosa, switch it in on a fainted ally for a revenge kill, or use a slow pivot like incin or rillaboom).
That said, Pheromosa outspeeds the entire unboosted metagame without having to sacrifice speed or power the way Urshifu has to with life orb/band and scarf respectively. In other words Pheromosa can effectively outspeed and OHKO down fast threats including Zeraora (dies to CC), Naganadel (dies to Ice Beam/Axel and Axel), and Landorus-I (dies 97864253x to IceBeam/Axel) without being choice locked or sacrificing any power - these are all mons that Urshifu has to be wary of.
A few other calcs worth mentioning: phero ohkos Incin through an Intimidate, has a good chance to ohko standard Porygon2, and U-turn just does a tonne of chip on any matchup where you don't want phero to stay in on a hit.
And in terms of winrate, Pheromosa has had neutral or positive winrates throughout OSDT with only one exception in round 3. At its peak in round 6 it had a 90.91% winrate, and throughout all of the late rounds of OSDT Phero's winrate has stayed positive. And while it was not nearly as omniprescent as Urshifu, you can see that enough people used it each round to provide viable data and its Usage % increased during the latest rounds of OSDT.
| Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
| 44 | Pheromosa | 8 | 2.34% | 50.00% |
| 44 | Pheromosa | 10 | 2.69% | 50.00% |
| 44 | Pheromosa | 9 | 2.60% | 44.44% |
| 52 | Pheromosa | 6 | 1.68% | 66.67% |
| 39 | Pheromosa | 10 | 2.92% | 60.00% |
| 35 | Pheromosa | 11 | 3.69% | 90.91% |
| 35 | Pheromosa | 11 | 4.26% | 72.73% |
| 36 | Pheromosa | 8 | 3.48% | 50.00% |
| 31 | Pheromosa | 9 | 5.42% | 55.56% |
| 25 | Pheromosa | 9 | 8.49% | 55.56% |
For reference, below I have provided the winrate for Urshifu (the "better" fighting-type) throughout OSDT - its winrate never exceeded 60% and roughly half the time was below 50% (of course, Urshifu was much more popular esp with people who were maybe just pulling/remaking teams, so I do recognize the effect that has on these stats).
| Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
| 3 | Urshifu-* | 93 | 27.19% | 59.14% |
| 5 | Urshifu-* | 97 | 26.08% | 52.58% |
| 3 | Urshifu-* | 91 | 26.30% | 52.75% |
| 2 | Urshifu-* | 106 | 29.61% | 50.00% |
| 6 | Urshifu-* | 85 | 24.85% | 49.41% |
| 4 | Urshifu-* | 77 | 25.84% | 49.35% |
| 6 | Urshifu-* | 61 | 23.64% | 50.82% |
| 7 | Urshifu-* | 53 | 23.04% | 49.06% |
| 7 | Urshifu-* | 36 | 21.69% | 55.56% |
| 5 | Urshifu-* | 27 | 25.47% | 48.15% |
I've made my case. If Phero gets nommed to 4 I think that's respectable, but personally I think Pheromosa deserves tier 3 as it is only slightly worse that Urshifu and in many matchups and builds is actually better, if harder to pilot.
i'll keep this short bc i feel like a lot of these aren't exactly flaming hot takes (i'm also sick )
Mew -> t1 OR Incineroar -> t2
A lot of people think mew is t1, and i agree... kind of. I think mew is better than incin, but not as good as kyub/rilla (kyub is debatable but rillaboom is pretty obviously just better), so i think mew should either rise to t1 or incineroar should fall to t2. Incineroar feels significantly worse than everything else in tier 1, and mew is one of the best mons in t2, so im fine with either (or both :D)
Heatran -> t2 OR Zygarde -> t3
Pretty similar reasoning to the mew nom, i think heatran is the best pokemon in t3 and zygarde is one of the worst in t2 by an uncomfortably wide margin, so i think either heatran should rise or zygarde should fall (or both)
Zapdos -> t4
Zapdos is the worst tailwind setter rn imo (not counting volcarona) naga is generally just better, the main thing zapdos does is whirlwind, which mew generally doesnt want to run and naga can't run, but it also can't safely whirlwind diancie or porygon2 (diancie clicks diamond storm and does a good chunk and porygon2 almost kills it with ice beam) so it's kinda just restricted to whirlwinding stuff like cress and demon gross. there's also the fact its forced to run hurricane but that's been talked about before so i won't beat a dead horse, hurricane is ass on non-rain teams. Zap is good on rain but not on many other teams, which is the literal definition of a t4 mon
Indeedee-f -> t3
Indeedee and lele are pretty relative as psyterrain setters, so it feels weird that theyre an entire tier apart. There's obviously pros and cons to each (lele is more offensive whereas indeedee is a better eject button user and has access to follow me) but not to the point where they should be an entire tier apart, especially when pelipper and politoed are in the same tier.
Hatterene -> UR
This mon is just worse necrozma, i genuinely can't think of a situation where you would use this over necrozma. The data is there too, this mon has gotten pretty low usage in most recent tours.
Dragapult -> t4
Dragapult just isnt good. Special pult is frustrating levels of mid, i feel like most people agree on that, and dd just hasn't seen enough usage to justify it being t3 imo. it has its place on some teams, i've used it myself quite a lot recently, but i dont think it really deserves to be in the same tier as psyspam/zera, and it being in the same tier as stuff like stakataka and ferro seems fair for it
Togekiss -> UR
There's really not much of an argument for this mon being ranked. It's seen no usage in most recent tours, and it's also kinda just bad. not much to say here.
Tyranitar -> t4
Tyranitar is a good mon. Sand in general is pretty good imo, and ttar itself is a good setter. Rock is a great offensive type, so many teams just don't have rock resists and ttar can abuse that. It also has a lot of freedom with the sets it can run. Av is the bulkiest special mon in the game second to maybe eviolite chansey (but like, its an eviolite chansey) it can run stuff like sitrus and allow itself to use taunt/rocks, and choice band does crazy amounts of damage to everything in the tier while still having enough bulk to do its job as a consistent sand setter. It's not the best mon in t4 or anything, but its seen enough usage that i think it deserves to not be in the same tier as landot.
Celesteela -> t3
Celesteela's fallen off pretty hard imo, it's in the same boat as zyg where it's jus significantly worse than everything else in t2 by a significant margin, to the point where i think it's fair for it to be in t3. It's not bad, its just that the other t2 mons are better
Yoda edit: added sprites because no sprites is pain
This was already nommed to 4 but I think it may be worthy of 3 in the current meta:
The set that seems to be popping off most right now in SCL is the bulky Stealth Rock + Dragon Tail ttar Nails enjoys using, having secured three (1, 2, 3) wins in three weeks. Hazard stacking has seemed really strong as of lately, and Tyranitar is the perfect companion for a hazard stack team thanks to its additional chip damage from Sand Stream, as well as having excellent type synergy with Mew who can either run Spikes + Snarl/Wisp for maximum hazard stacking or a more fast offensive set which can deal with ttar's threats like Urshifu (Psychic) and Zygarde (Ice Beam).
Even before hazard stack Dragon Tail ttar was cool, Tyranitar also saw great and long-lived success on the now iconic Fespy Sand team which is now a newly-added sample team. Fespy Sand runs Assault Vest ttar which has absurdly good special defense, notably taking less than 50% damage from a Landorus-I Earth Power, and Tyranitar also has a very wide coverage movepool that can help deal with whatever threats your team may be weak to.
Sand in general just isn't half bad as an archetype. I'm too lazy to list all the different viable sand teams I've seen, but all of the main Sand Rush mons (Dracovish, Dracozolt and Excadrill) put in good work on the right team.
Even without Sand Rush beneficiaries, ttar's role compression of big stat stick + hazards setter/AV tank + ability to cancel out opposing weathers makes Tyranitar a reasonably versatile pick.
Of course, ttar does have a glaring 4x weakness to Fighting-type moves so you need good counters to Urshifu and Pheromosa. And likewise, Rillaboom's omniprescence is a concern. Howver, looking at Tier 3's definition:
Pokemon that are generally strong, but less powerful than those in Tier 2 or Pokemon that require a decent amount of support or a specific team style to function well, but are defining pieces to said archetypes.
I think this describes ttar really well in the current meta - it requires a decent amount of support and a specific team style to function well, but is a defining pieces to the Sand archetype which can be made viable in a lot of different styles.
4 -> 3
I don't think Genesect should have been brought down to 4 in the first place, but now with the emergence of Choice Band Extreme Speed Genesect with hazard stack, it has found another niche along with the already established Choice Scarf and Shift Gear sets.
UR -> 5
A Sand Rush attacker that is just as good if not better than both Excadrill and Dracovish. Dracozolt can OHKO Fini and Urshifu before they can attack and it resists Grass, all of which the other two Sand Rushers lack and are appreciated by sand setters. Tyranitar becoming more common is also making it easier to fit onto teams.
Good enough speed tier to outspeed most of the tier with adamant and has the ability to ohko every t1 mon and the majoirty of t2. Has acsess to 120/130 bp stab moves to hit basically anything for atleast netural, and important stab moves like u-turn and sucker punch, and usually does enough to ohko most non bulky mons at neutral with rocks or a diff hazard. Pairs very well with something like scarf gene or whims to outspeed and ohko the few mons faster then cinder/ mons like zyg and volcanion that live.
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Incineroar: 398-468 (101 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 355-419 (92.6 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 298-351 (92.8 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Libero Cinderace Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Tapu Fini: 377-447 (109.5 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nihilego: 507-598 (141.2 - 166.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 282-333 (88.4 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Libero Cinderace U-turn vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Indeedee-F: 299-354 (86.9 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 292-344 (100.3 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Libero Cinderace Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 460-541 (113.8 - 133.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Will do a more complete post after scl but here's a quick once over.
Tyranitar to 2
Rocks are good but every rocker sucks, it makes you beat rain and psyspam which frees up your teambuilding a ton. Insurance against extreme mus, and SR into die is sufficient contribution for its bad mus, though it does more than that usually.
Mew to 1
Best mon in the tier. Tailwind and then pick your favorite 3 attacks from more than a dozen excellent options and like 20 I'd seriously consider for a game I wanted to win. Can do whatever you want it to do and it works bc your opponent can't reasonably respect it all.
Genesect to 2 (closer to 1 than 3)
CB is a tier 2 set, Scarf is tier 3 (still higher than 4). Makes monke sad when little else except Mew really does.
Pheromosa to 3
Phero makes monke sad too. But this time I mean it, splashable options to punish Rillaboom are v limited. Lower than gene bc it can't switch in.
Cube to 3 (or 4?)
Zapdos to 4
Volcarona to UR
Really bad rn. They claim to make monke sad but don't actually.
Whimsicott to 2
If you don't have tar or cott you lose to weather.
Spectrier to 3
Ghosts are good.
Yoda edit: added sprites because no sprites is pain
Crazy take to some but it's not without good reason. Common T1 Mew arguments reference how many sets it can run. While its versatility makes it strong due to the sheer amount of options it has, no certain combination of those options is inherently broken and more often than not are certain combinations of moves it runs very bad. People commonly dump tons of support moves onto Mew, opting to only run one attacking move typically in the form of snarl. Sets like these are failures in the builder, and using them are forms of failing in the battle. Building teams where you're dumping so many support moves onto one mon means you aren't doing a good job at spreading out roles throughout the team, and when playing it shows you don't have a clear idea of how you should progress the game. These types of sets take 2-3 turns to get going and more often than not result in you playing in a 1v2 situation. Mew functions best when it is utilizing its speed to throw out fast fake outs and tailwinds, while using its vast pool of coverage to check some of the more frail pokemon in the format. Even at max SpA Mew fails to threaten some of the bulkier mons in the tier however.
Tldr: Despite all of the moves Mew can run, it is fairly easy to discern what a moveset Mew is wanting to run just by looking at team preview. It is limited in what it can do as an offensive support and sacrifices too much momentum when used in other ways.
Although it can only be used on hail teams, and there is the argument that using Kyurem-Black is better (that you can hide witch set you are using better). I think that Kyurem's base form still has merit on hail, just enough for tier 5 as it has a few niche rolls that a special attacking Kyurem-Black would not be able to otherwise obtain thanks to it's extra 10 spatk (130 SPATK on Kyurem vs 120 on Kyurem-Black).
252 SpA Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 344-408 (100.8 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (344, 348, 354, 356, 362, 366, 368, 374, 378, 380, 386, 390, 392, 398, 402, 408)
252 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 324-384 (95 - 112.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (324, 330, 332, 336, 338, 344, 348, 350, 356, 360, 362, 366, 372, 374, 378, 384)
A guarenteed ohko on Urshifu with freeze-dry is a very nice bonus, allowing it to win a 1v1 if using a chopple berry, though Kyurem-black can also OHKO with freeze-dry at max spatk, it's not gaurenteed. Kyurem-Normals extra damage can also come in handy against bulkier threats that pose a threat to hail teams such as CM Tapu Fini.
Now I'm sure you're saying "But fangame it's still a ohko on Kyube just not 100% of the time.... it shouldn't matter too much :((((" WELL NO! YOU TRY RUNNING THE SAME TEAM EVERY GAME AND YOU'LL TRUELY SEE HOW MUCH 100% KO ON URSHIFU MATTERS >>>>>:^(
also a potential ohko (25% if no boost to Earth Power) on Nihilego:
252 SpA Kyurem Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nihilego: 316-372 (88 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (316, 316, 320, 324, 328, 332, 336, 340, 344, 348, 352, 356, 360, 364, 368, 372)
Kyurem normal is better on hail than Kyurem-Black >: (
The important noms have all been made and as long as Mew goes to 1 idgaf about the rest. That said, couple last minute noms:
UR -> 5
Sand is good rn, and although Sand Rush abusers are optional they are also competent fast attackers. I think zolt > vish > drill but Excadrill puts in work on the right team, including one of this community's sample teams. It's wack to see a mon thats good enough to be on a sample but not "good enough" to be ranked on VR. Crunchman also posted an alternative Excadrill team in their post-OSDT bazaar dump.
UR -> 5
I think sun kinda sucks in SS rn (sorry torky I feel I'm betraying you by saying this) but people have used it to good success, and more often than not sun teams are semiroom builds that use Venusaur as a Drought abuser. Other than chris numbers sun which uses Cinderace, I think most sun teams are packing Venu these days. Makes it worthy of being ranked imo.
Nice that y'all are catching up to early summer KyleCole in mid October...
I jest! But I wanted to add my support to these noms before making one of my own. Pheromosa onto psyspam especially was a discovery I was really impressed with this gen so big shoutouts to whoever had that idea, and it's cool to see it spreading onto other builds.
Tier 4 to Tier 3
If you just go down the viability rankings with the standard meteor beam set you can pretty quickly see that the counters for this guy are, while specific and very effective in stopping nihilego, limited. Meteor Beam Nihilego is an incredibly easy set to include on a team, an easy set to use when you get into the game, and an easy set to create a game plan around (KO the metagross then win, KO the Zygarde then win, just win, etc.).
Nihilego also enjoys the Sp.Def boost from sand (yours or the opponents). As an example, the sand boost gives it more than enough special bulk to survive a Modest Necrozma Expanding Force in Psychic Terrain or any hit from Modest Heatran or Volcanion.
But wait there's more! As the chess grandmaster Daniel Naroditsky has often said, "the threat [can be] stronger than the execution". As good as meteor beam is, if you want to experiment with other nihilego movesets you can rest easy knowing your opponent is going to dance around the Meteor Beam click. Ally Switch (love), Substitute (like), and Thunderbolt (fine) are all cool third move options I've tried. Not running Meteor Beam also frees up your item choice to try something like Focus Sash, Poison Barb, Shuca/Babiri/whatever. As long as you don't give away the set with something like Life Orb there's plenty of room for surprise. Edit: Psychic could also be cool
Tier 4 looks as if it will be in for a bit of a shakeup so it's tough to find good comparables, but my headcalc says Nihilego is much closer to the threat of something like Dragapult or Necrozma than Cresselia or Zapdos-G.
fair warning for readers this is gonna have a lot of opinions as well as repeat noms because I want to get my thoughts out.
-> 1 nails put this extremely well, however, I would also like to touch on its offensive options. the choice scarf set has proven itself by crippling defensive mons or locking setup sweepers out of their setup (or into if you time it right) being able to stack up on offensive moves gives it incredible coverage while also outspeeding other common scarfers like genesect and urshifu. other offensive options like power herb meteor beam let it function like a faster necrozma that can use tailwind. while some mew sets may not be t1 quality you have to respect a number of possible sets that are t1 quality in preview as more often than not multiple sets will function incredibly on any given team. I do not agree that stacking support moves is a bad thing either because of the utility mew provides it often gets focused down in battle meaning your partner has free turns to act. additionally even with just one attacking move mew threatens significant damage on a number of metagame staples regardless of what move it chooses to run.
despite its many weaknesses tyranitar has shown itself to be consistent at clicking rocks and spreading damage. it enables so many mons to just do their thing while denying trick room attempts and spreading hazard and chip damage with dragon tail, changing weather to assist with rain teams, soaking up special attacks from hyper offence, and even potentially going on the offence with a cb set. extremely consistent mon deserving of a spot in t3 at minimum.
this could just be an scl trend but p2 is currently at its worst viability all of crown tundra due to numerous fighting types in the tier being really good. this means shadow ball has free reign on the tier. grassy seed seems to be the favourite item to get around incin knock off, while sets like nasty plot can win practically on the spot vs teams with minimal ghost resists, and snarl wisp can make it incredibly difficult to remove while it spreads damage.
currently sits at a respectable 12 scl uses with an incredible 75% win rate. in order of viability choice band, choice scarf, and shift gear are all incredibly potent sets that have the ability to clean up entire teams given enough time. albeit they are difficult to fit onto teams at times due to its 4x weakness to fire, and it is often taking repeated hazard damage since it switches out every time it clicks u-turn.
fastest unboosted mon in the tier, has incredible ohko potential, and spreads damage with u-turn. while incredibly weak to tapu fini and difficult to get on the field at times. pheromosa has an absurd damage output and is difficult to pin down at times. even outspeeds some dd kyub sets forcing them to invest fully in attack and speed if they want to not lose to mosa. also outspeeds kingdra at +1.
7 wins in 8 uses in scl, enables hyper offence, and many options for 4th or even 3rd attack as it pretty much only needs tailwind and moonblast. not even that frail and can live some strong attacks with a bit of bulk investment. incredibly frustrating mon to fight.
rain is very consistent bump this pair up.
best sand rush sweeper by a lot, is incredibly good at doing damage with bolt beak, and has multiple coverage options to hit mons that can take bolt beak, and can be difficult to take down at times due to its dragon types resistances.
I personally think the only redeeming quality of sun teams is this mon. but I suppose it's significant enough to warrant being ranked. sleep powder + weather ball earth power and leaf storm is incredibly good coverage but is doomed to poor results due to being stuck on sun teams.
abused by hazards and fighting types + ttar, trades incredibly poorly when using av sets and dd sets require multiple pokemon to get it set up and it doesn't even sweep more than half the time because every good team is prepared for a +1 +1 kyub, or some consistent way to prevent it from getting there, ie: incin.
too many fighting types, gets abused a lot more often now and gets stuck clicking recover in trick room too often to be t2.
second worst fighting type currently on the vr. its pretty bad at trading cause it suicides into all the mons it wants to hit with brave bird and gets killed by the partner when using close combat because of defence drops.
literally requires an entire team of support to work it is not good unless it has a stupidly good mu. its called the matchup moth for a reason.
I can go off on how bad this mon is, and I will. only fits on fullroom, cant even OHKO the things it wants to check in trick room due to its pitiful base attack stat of 90 and is not even as bulky as people like to say because of its 65 base HP. the eject button set gets forced out before doing anything unless trick room is already up, however its job is to click fake out to assist in setting trick room meaning it is more than likely getting forced out early. the pokemon it actually does check ALWAYS has a partner that threatens it, or in zygardes case it doesnt care because it just clicks superpower and scrafty takes 70%. trick room already being weak to tapu fini doesnt help when scrafty is also x4 weak to it. ok rant done.
the balance support set with tw + spikes is tier 1 worthy, it has the most versatile moveset in the tier, which puts a lot of pressure on the opponent and makes it viable on pretty much every playstyle. if rilla is tier 1, then mew should be tier 1, as it fits in on just as many teams and it usually does more.
whimsi to 2
super good scl record + one of the best speedcontrol mons atm + it fits on a lot of teams, as it has been shown balance / bulky offense can also use it as a setter, it's not restricted to ho.
gene to 2
we should either move gene to 2 or drop meta/celes to 3, as it's at least just as good as they are. band works great with spikes balance as well as on offensive teams, shift gear is also very viable.
kyub to 2
this mon has lost a lot of viability, due to the recent meta trends. tar / cb gene abuse it, hazard spam makes it much more clunky, mew being super viable decreases it's utility as a lando-i check.
tar to 3
tar is one of the few viable ghost resists, it works well on sand and spikes balance teams, both of which are viable and strong playstyles at the moment.
mosa to 4
extremely hard to check, it fits well on offensive teams and is one of the best mons to use with psyspam.
zolt to 5
solid sand abuser, I don't see why it shouldn't be ranked if drill/vish are. it has been proven to be viable in scl/osdt.
venu to 5
sun is not great, but it's viable and venu is a fine sun abuser.
moltres-g to 5
this mon sucks, but it has a unique typing, which allows it to counter spectrier and landoi really well, which can be useful for some offensive teams. it's also undefeated in scl.
exca to 5
it faces a lot of competition from vish/zolt, which might be slightly better as sand abusers at the moment, but it's still viable for sure. it also benefits from the rise in the utility of tar.
scrafty to ur
nobody uses this mon + it competes with tar, which has been very good in the last couple of weeks.
togekiss to ur
nobody uses this mon + mew/whimsi are almost always better as tw setters. the demand for redirection is pretty low, as there aren't that many great abusers.
volcarona to ur
nobody uses this mon + inc/volcanion/tran are very good at the moment and I'm not sure why would I ever drop one of them for volcarona.
Yoda edit: added sprites because no sprites is pain
I'm not entirely sure how this works, but I'll just leave my thoughts here, starting with the kyurems:
This might surprise some people but I actually think base kyurem is extremely viable right now. It is basically a diet kyurem-white, capable of dishing out significant damage with earth power, freeze dry, and draco meteor. This mon is extremely under-explored due to the opportunity cost of giving up on using Kyurem-black. However, I often find base Kyurem to be better and I also think:
Kyurem black remains solid, however I think it is quite overrated. Its physical sets are pretty easily checked by tools like incineroar and its several weaknesses. Its av set is extremely bulky, but it also feels very passive at times. You should still respect it in the team builder, but its not as splashable as its current vr would suggest.
After using Victini for the last several weeks, I honestly don't see why it isn't used more. With the ridiculous base power of v-create, victini can afford to run minimal attack EVs. Searing shot provides interesting utility with the burn chance, and max hp evs allow final gambit to trade with pretty much anything in the format. It isn't overpowered by any means, but it is very solid- victory star pairs extremely well with partners like Tsareena, allowing triple axel to attain its true power. It's also quite fast with a choice scarf.
Time for a VR update! This is a pretty comprehensive update with most Pokémon voted on. We’ll likely do one more after invitationals if there are nominations to wrap up Sw/Sh. Thank you to everyone who nominated!
Ferrothorn: Tier 4 →Tier 3
Actuarily: Tier 3. A very good choice as an ID Body Press mon, as it can outlast non-fire special attackers with leech seed. Also holds rain together, and can even be a hazard setter.
Yoda2798: Tier 3. Iron Defense is potent, especially on rain, which is where Ferrothorn really shines. It is also usable without rain, but that’s where it’s most effective, and what makes me think it fits into Tier 3.
Nido-Rus: Tier 3. Very solid lately with ID, pretty much necessitates a good fire type and/or something with a fire move that doesn’t die to body press. Other sets like AV or standard leech still work but are mostly tier 4-5 sets.
SMB: Tier 4, pretty easy to fit many checks for it, it doesn’t need to be fire types… Problem is some teams giving up on checks for it due to bad sets on things that should check it.
Paraplegic: Tier 3, agree with everyone else.
Mew: Tier 2 →Tier 1 or 3
Actuarily: Tier 1, been voting it for a while. Most versatile mon in the tier, best hazard setter, most reliable tailwind setter, can also set TR, gets fake out + coaching support, can heal allies with pollen puff, can run a demon set with body press/stored power, and the snarl wisp set can be destructive to unprepared teams. The versatility makes it applicable to so many teams, so it fits everywhere. It’s mediocre offensive stats are the only thing that maybe holds it back, but it’s great coverage let’s Mew choose what it wants to beat if it is running a more offensive set
Yoda2798: Tier 1. The resurgence of hazards pushes this over the edge for me from last time. Before, Tailwind was the one thing that it did really well, though it wasn’t/isn’t the only one in that regard. The addition of Spikes and Stealth Rock to its arsenal, which additionally makes Snarl better due to their synergy, raises it to the next level. Mew also has other sets which can be effective, but that’s the difference maker in my eyes, taking it from something you could be using to something you should be using. #2 in OSDT Top Cut and SCL usage speaks for how splashable this is at the moment.
Nido-Rus: Tier 1 - a bit iffy on this since I genuinely believe that this is simply a product of the current meta, but right now it has a lot of good sets that each perform well, which in itself creates a lot of pressure when it's sent out. Quite sure it’ll fall back down as SS becomes an oldgen.
SMB: It’s common to read some overreacts by this time of the year but I honestly don’t get how something that has only gotten worse since last slate and has 0 tier 1 sets, arguably 0 tier 2 sets and many tier 3 and lower sets could reach tier 1. The set that was deemed as tier 2 (tailwind + 2 attacks) is worse due to better tailwind setters in naga and whims. Ghost types are more popular and it struggles vs offense teams which are the most common at the moment.
I’m not going to repeat myself explaining how bad some sets like wow + snarl + hazards are, they don’t accomplish anything and they make mew not check what it should check.
Even if it’s versatile, it doesn’t take more than 1 turn to figure out what it does, none of their sets are “oppressive” if you have a good team, and all or most of its sets share checks and counters.
A bunch of tier 3 and lower sets don’t make a pokemon tier 1, they make it tier 3.
Paraplegic: Tier 1. Mew literally does whatever you want and plugs holes in teams in a way nothing else can remotely come close to replicating. Spikes is the main kicker here for me, it being the only good setter really increases its value for me on top of being able to run half a billion other sets if it chooses to.
Celesteela: Tier 2 →Tier 3
Actuarily: Tier 3. It’s a weird fit a lot of the time due to the flying typing - while it makes a great Lando-I wall, it struggles vs the bolt-beam mons (Porygon2 and DD Kyu-b) that steels are typically used to check. It can still run away with games for unprepared teams, which I think better fits tier 3, where it’s not just as splashable as tiers 1 or 2.
Yoda2798: Tier 3. Still alright, but definitely not Tier 2 anymore. People are better prepared for it and it doesn’t fit on that many teams, which isn’t helped by the rise of competition as a Steel-type.
Nido-Rus: Tier 3. People adapted their teams and learned how to play better against meteor beam. Other sets (sub leech, wg, special, AV, etc) are tier 4 at best.
SMB: Tier 3, I’ve never voted this to tier 2, 3 is where it always should have been
Paraplegic: Begrudgingly Tier 3. This really doesn’t feel fight to me but I don’t have good counterarguments to what has been said by some.
Incineroar: Tier 1→Tier 2
Actuarily: Tier 2. Running Incin as your fire mon really puts you at a disadvantage versus certain team types (anything built around body press, teams built around steel types like Shift Gear Genesect, or tsareena teams, etc.) that it almost requires you to find a way to fit another fire move. While it is better into stuff like P2 and DD Kyu-b than the other fire mons, it’s just not a tier above Heatran and Volcanion due to its limitations.
Yoda2798: Tier 1. Incineroar is still incredibly splashable, it’s the only good Intimidate, and provides Fake Out and pivoting which are useful as always. I actually don’t think hazards are so bad for Incineroar, you just use Heavy-Duty Boots which equals Sitrus Berry after only switching into Stealth Rock once or a single layer of Spikes twice. Since you’ll usually be saving even more HP, Incineroar is actually getting more value from its item slot currently, and as the easily best Boots user that puts it in a relatively good spot with hazards around. It checks the two top Pokemon, Rillaboom and Mew, being especially good against Mew since it’s immune to hazards and Will-O-Wisp, and Mew typically not having a move to hit it. Despite not being the best counter to Genesect in comparison to other Fire-types, its rise is not all bad either, since Incineroar is actually its most common teammate at the moment. Genesect appreciates the slow pivot back into it, and pivoting around the opponent forcing switches while you rack up hazard damage is solid. Speaking of which, Mew also really appreciates Incineroar as a partner, weakening all the U-turns it attracts and generally protecting it while setting hazards, and now notably being a Ghost-type resist/check for it too. Incineroar is also a natural fit for facilitating setup or helping set Trick Room, meaning it fits on a variety of teams. #3 in usage in both OSDT Top Cut and SCL, with numbers more in line with the rest of Tier 1 than Tier 2, Week 5 it even hit 7/10 uses while Mew has only peaked at 5/10. If you want to compare Incineroar to Heatran and Volcanion, then the cat’s usage is much closer to the other two’s combined (only ~5% lower) than it is to either individually (~10% above the higher of the two) in both tours, which is a good indication it should be a tier higher than them.
Nido-Rus: Tier 2. The return of hazards hasn’t helped, while other fire types like volcanion and heatran have become much more prevalent, especially with ID body press stuff running around.
SMB: Tier 1, incineroar doesn’t really care that much about hazards, that’s another overreact… It’s always going to do what it’s meant to do and it’s going to do it at least 2 times which is more than enough. The only thing with it is that it’s passive so you’re not making a good use of the turns your opponent is wasting.
Anyway intimidate, fake out and slow pivoting is too valuable for many teams.
Paraplegic: Tier 1. Yoda is spitting here just refer to his blurb.
Dragapult: Tier 3 →Tier 4
Actuarily: Tier 3, a really good anti-offense mon, good at stopping Mew from doing whatever it wants. It’s checks are very popular, so that does limit what it can do though.
Yoda2798: Tier 3. Ghost-type is good for Fake Out immunity and is especially good these days for Mew, has a very nice Speed tier, and its movepool helps make up for its modest Special Attack. Most classically used as the fast mode on Trick Room teams, but Dragapult’s traits make it pretty usable outside of that too.
Nido-Rus: Tier 3. Probably on the lower end of tier 3, but it continues to work well. Had a major drop-off for a while, but now with the increased popularity of mew and decreased popularity of Incineroar, it has a relatively easier time in the meta.
SMB: Tier 3. DD still ass special still lit. (please don’t use special life orb and clear body, it’s extremely bad lmao)
Paraplegic: Tier 3. Special still ass DD still lit.
Tsareena: Tier 4→Tier 3
Actuarily: Tier 3. Stopping priority is huge, opening up a lot of different team styles that want to prevent fake out from stalling out turns. Triple axel gives it a coveted ice type attack making it good into a lot of stuff grasses are usually deadweight into like Amoonguss and Naganadel. Arguably the best taunt user in the tier as well since it ignores fake out and ragepowder. Obviously the opportunity cost of not using the best glue mon (Rillaboom) holds it back, but Tsareena makes certain team styles, and keeps the tier from being too much of a fake out + pivot fest.
Yoda2798: Tier 4. Fits on rain, but only as a supporting piece for the more important members, and is very difficult to justify outside of that. Fits the description for Tier 4 more than Tier 3, generally you’d much rather have Rillaboom instead.
Nido-Rus: Tier 4. Fits well on rain and some semiTR teams. Love this mon, but it really just doesn’t have enough stats or typing to be ranked higher. Stopping priority is great and it gets good moves/attack stat, but often its low speed and lack of resistances prevent it from doing anything apart from soaking a few hits.
SMB: Tier 4, stops priority and that’s pretty much it, it doesn’t have the bulk to be on the field more than 2 turns or be constantly switching in and out
Paraplegic: Tier 4. This mon is ass but stopping fake out do be powerful.
Kingdra: Tier 4→Tier 3
Actuarily: tier 3, rain is really strong.
Yoda2798: Tier 3. I think rain is strong enough to warrant Tier 3 at the moment, and Kingdra as the primary beneficiary is obviously a defining aspect of that.
Nido-Rus: Tier 3. Rain has made a big comeback, riding off of stuff like specs zapdos and iron defense ferrothorn. Definitely a potent threat rn.
SMB: Tier 4; Rain is tier 4
Paraplegic: Tier 3. Rain is good and kingdra is the main piece of the style.
Politoed: Tier 4 →Tier 3
Actuarily: tier 3. Rain is really strong.
Yoda2798: Tier 3. I think rain is strong enough to warrant Tier 3 at the moment, and Politoed as the primary setter is obviously a defining aspect of that.
Nido-Rus: Also voting to move alongside Kingdra to tier 3 as the primary enabler.
SMB: Tier 4; Rain is tier 4
Paraplegic: Tier 3. People are finally seeing that toed is better than shit ass peli this is like christmas!
Pelipper: Tier 4 →Tier 3
Actuarily: Tier 3. Rain is really strong. I think the fact it combines rain setter + can run tailwind too into one slot is nice enough to justify it being the same tier as Politoed, just don’t expect it to be a reliable tailwind setter.
Yoda2798: Tier 4. Pelipper isn’t on the best version/s of rain, since as Nido-Rus said the support Politoed provides is better for the rain users.
Nido-Rus: Tier 4 this time around imo, not providing HH like politoed is pelipper’s biggest drawback. HH with stuff like specs kingdra or specs zapdos makes or breaks too many important calcs
SMB: Tier 4; Rain is tier 4
Paraplegic: UR. This mon is a bad setter thats outclassed by toed you don’t have to like it but I’m telling the truth.
Pheromosa: Tier 5→Tier 3
Actuarily: Tier 4. It REALLY needs to be faster than anything your opponent is running, or else it’s in a bad position since it can’t apply the same offensive pressure turn 1. It also has to find free switches when no speed control is in effect because of its terrible bulk. A really sad calc that shows it can’t even switch in on resisted hits: 112+ Atk Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa in Grassy Terrain: 153-180 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Phermosa’s advantage of being fast enough that it can take over the role of a scarf-fighting type and still run LO is really nice, as is STAB u-turn and ice move coverage, but its limitations getting it on the field hold it back in t4.
Yoda2798: Tier 3. Glass cannon but it does that job very well, as GenOne described in detail. The fastest unboosted Pokemon and able to take on other fast Pokemon especially well due to strong STABs and Ice-type coverage. Even against bulkier Pokemon Pheromosa is threatening due to its high offensive stats, being able to OHKO Porygon2 or KO Incineroar through Intimidate. U-turn deals massive damage to metagame staples Pokemon Rillaboom and Mew, and provides a great deal of risk-free damage when Pheromosa is threatened out. It is too frail to switch into anything, and Grassy Glide KOing after a Close Combat is sad, but safely get Pheromosa on the field and the rewards are worth it. It first came under the spotlight as a replacement for Urshifu on PsySpam, now being a staple on such teams, but has since proven it can work well elsewhere as well, making Pheromosa worthy of Tier 3 in my eyes.
Nido-Rus: Tier 3, Yoda explains it well. Massive immediate pressure with the ability to OHKO many common mons or just u-turn out safely. Also huge threat at cleaning endgame.
SMB: Tier 5 as any glass cannon pokemon that is able to meet the vr, just another overreact
Paraplegic: Tier 2. Imo best fighting in the tier, the pressure it puts out onto the field is absolutely insane and when well supported/positioned this mon abuses almost everything.
Heatran: Tier 3→Tier 2
Actuarily: Tier 2. I think the three main fire types (Heatran/Volcanion/Incineroar) all fulfill the role of fire type in different ways and fit on different teams, and are each deserving of tier 2. You pretty much have to run one of them unless you’re running something unconventional, so they’re all very splashable. Heatran is the most offensive of the three, with eruption in tailwind being very strong, and the LO set checks a lot.
Yoda2798: Tier 2. Deserves to be up there with Volcanion, good Fire-type and a valuable spread attacker, pairs particularly well with Whimsicott which has risen up.
Nido-Rus: Tier 2, heatran is back as a great offensive fire type, especially with stuff like the LO flash cannon set.
SMB: Tier 3, it relies a lot on what the rest of the team is able to do, not like the other fire types
Paraplegic: Tier 2. Its part of the trinity of good fires it doesn’t belong in 3.
Zygarde: Tier 2→Tier 3
Actuarily: Tier 2. DD is still one of the best set up sweepers in the tier, and Choice Band + speed control is such an effective way of spreading around damage.
Yoda2798: Tier 2. Shouldn’t be a tier below Landorus, spread Ground-type is quite valuable to have, from both sets.
Nido-Rus: Tier 2, still a very potent threat with both sets. Soft sand DD is underused, a single boost is often enough to clean up endgame very well.
SMB: tier 2, only ground type better than the tier 4 standards that the tier has
Paraplegic: Tier 2. One of the two good grounds, and while dd is less immediately threatening than lando it being such a potent wincon makes the tradeoffs pretty fine, and band isn't my favorite but it does its job very consistently.
Tyranitar: Tier 5→Tier 2
Actuarily: Tier 4. This one is interesting, as Ttar’s combination of typing and ability allows it to check a lot in the builder. (It’s a DD Kyu-b check, a psyspam check, a weather setter that helps check opposing weather, and it can do other stuff like set rocks and force out set up wincons with d tail/roar). But it doesn’t do any of those particularly well, like it still can take a lot from DD Kyu-b and doesn’t ohko it (unless you’re like CB), psyspam always runs fighting mons, and it’s not like it wants to switch in on rain. But no other Pokémon does all of this in one slot. For instance Metagross is a better check to kyu-b and psyspam, and a more reliable rocks setter, but is bad into weather. So there is merit to Ttar, but it’s just bad into so many popular mons that something else can often do most of its role better, other than setting sand. So if your team is really built around sand, then yes ttar is the right fit, but on anything else I think you’d be better off going in a different direction, leaving it in t4.
Yoda2798: Tier 3. Tyranitar is surprisingly good as a standalone Pokemon, and when you add one of the several usable Sand Rush Pokemon to the mix, you find that sand as an archetype is actually in a pretty good spot, and largely because of Tyranitar. Hazard stacking is strong and Tyranitar plays well as a part of that too. It’s really good at tanking special attacks, especially so with Assault Vest but even without, living a super effective Landorus’ Earth Power, after which you can KO back with an Ice-type attack, is no easy feat. Tyranitar’s obviously particularly good against PsySpam, and helps against rain, but its general survivability as long as you dodge Fighting-types has to be noted, and helps ensure it’ll always do something. I’m kind of just retreading GenOne’s excellent post here but Tyranitar fits the Tier 3 definition, being THE defining piece of sand and important to multiple different viable teams.
Nido-Rus: Tier 4. Ttar can just about work as a standalone mon, particularly on recent hazard stack teams. Dracozolt’s recent rise has also helped a lot, making sand a much bigger threat.
SMB: Tier 5; sand is tier 5. It makes sand work and that’s pretty much it, a burden on every team that doesn’t carry any sand rush pokemon.
Paraplegic: Tier 4. I find myself agreeing with act’s line of reasoning pretty wholly here.
Genesect: Tier 4 →Tier 2
Actuarily: Tier 3. Scarf is a good anti-offense mon that has to be careful not to get choice locked in the wrong position, and SG can run away with games yet always has enough checks that make it tough to pull off. Those two sets are good, but do have their drawbacks. Outside of the specific Nails team that was built around hazards + e-speed, I just don’t see CB being much more useful than scarf. The extra damage from u-turn just doesn’t justify the utility and amount you can outspeed and ko from being scarf.
Yoda2798: Tier 2. I don’t know if it’ll last, but at this moment at least it deserves Tier 2 IMO, best Steel-type right now. Choice Band is the centre of success, with a strong U-turn for anything slower and strong Extreme Speed for (almost) anything faster, being largely behind Genesect’s excellent 11-6 showing in SCL currently. This is only a recent trend but it does have the goods to back it up, and having other viable sets helps me feel confident in voting Tier 2.
Nido-Rus: Tier 3. Big fan of the banded set but I don’t see it as a long-term enough set to maintain tier 2. Between scarf, band, and shift gear, though, definitely deserving of at least tier 3.
SMB: Mew tier, so my vote goes wherever mew goes, big enough variety of tier 3 and lower sets with more or less the same checks and if it carries the right move on a pool of 10 or more viable moves it has, it should be good against any team
Paraplegic: Tier 3(ig?). The mon is clearly doing better than it was but I do not buy into all the hype some people are currently surrounding it with, band espeed isn’t the key to this being a top tier mon like some would claim.
Whimsicott: Tier 4→Tier 2
Actuarily: Tier 3. Prankster tailwind is good, and whimsicott’s other support moves can be really disruptive, but it’s lack of doing anything other than support holds it back.
Yoda2798: Tier 2. This is a train I can get behind even though I’m not 100% on it. Prankster Tailwind is massive and makes it incredibly important to various teams, middling Speed attackers like Choice Specs Tapu Fini benefit so much from it. Moonblast and other support moves do enough on top of Tailwind, and you can consistently make it do more than just set Tailwind once and then die. Win rates are rarely significant but 10-1 in SCL definitely says something.
Nido-Rus: Tier 2. Was debating between tier 3 and 2 here, especially considering how its bulk held it back so much in previous generations, but whims has been consistently performing great for months across multiple tournaments. Hard to argue with these kinds of repeated results.
SMB: Tier 3.5, idm if it ends up on 3 or 4. Best tailwind setter with many glaring weaknesses and it has to be paired with either a grass or a fairy type if you don’t want it to be just a tw bot, which doesn’t help to the defensive synergy of the team, that means less switches and less opportunities to set tw
Paraplegic: Tier 2. It kinda enables offense to ridiculous levels and recent showings mean I’m very comfortable with voting this up to 2.
Kyurem-Black: Tier 1→Tier 3
Actuarily: Tier 2. The rise of hazards means boots should be considered on DD sets, but checks to DD are so limited that checking it impacts you in the teambuilder so much. AV is still super difficult to manage, and holds a lot of balance teams together. The rise of ID body press mons as well as hazards just means it’s getting tougher to use, so it should fall a tier.
Yoda2798: Tier 3. This might seem drastic, but I voted it down last time and meta trends since then have been even more unkind to it. Sand, hazards, Genesect, and Pheromosa rising up are unfavourable for Kyurem-Black. Whimsicott can neutralise Dragon Dance’s Speed advantage for teammates such as Tapu Fini, which with its shift towards more offensive sets is often the one threatening Kyurem. The still prevalent Incineroar also does a great job of limiting the effectiveness of Dragon Dance variants. It’s dangerous to be a Kyurem-Black at the moment and both sets are in a rough spot as a result. 15th in usage in OSDT Top Cut with a <50% win rate followed by SCL where it’s currently 18th in usage with a 2-6 record lead reflect that well and so I think Tier 3 at this moment in time is more than reasonable.
Nido-Rus: Tier 2. AV is now a tier 3 set at best with the rise in popularity of pheromosa, psyspam, hazard stack, ttar etc., but DD with appropriate support is still a massive threat and deserving of tier 2.
SMB: Tier 2, still has a big enough variety of good sets and is a solid mon overall
Paraplegic: Tier 2. RIP king.
Spectrier: Tier 4 →Tier 3
Actuarily: Tier 4. Can runaway with games if the opponent doesn’t even consider it in the teambuilder, but it’s ineffective if the opponent does. Snarl + wisp is interesting as a faster version of the mew set, but its bad defensive typing and bulk makes it less effective.
Yoda2798: Tier 4. Ghost-type is good at the moment, but I don’t think Spectrier is on the same level as Dragapult, which the stats back up. Boasts the potential to run away with a game, but requires more support to be effective, and often won’t fulfill that potential. Dragapult being fairly common also isn’t great for Spectrier since it’s faster and KOes. It’s a Pokemon with high highs but hasn’t proven consistent enough yet IMO.
Nido-Rus: Tier 4. It’s better right now against the recent trend of bulky hazard stack teams because of their huge reliance on fake out, but its bulk and lack of resists mean it’s still iffy against most other teams.
SMB: Tier 3, with nihilego is the pokemon that can snowball a game easier, glass cannon sets are not that good but stuff like my bulky grassy seed nasty plot set is devastating against many teams
Paraplegic: Tier 3. One of the most potent offensive mons in the tier, ghost is hard af to resist.
Nihilego: Tier 4 →Tier 3
Actuarily: Tier 4. Really has to be built around to successfully snowball, and is easy to see on preview and just save your check for it.
Yoda2798: Tier 4. Still a niche option which competes with a number of speedy attackers who are generally better. Definitely hasn’t proven it deserves a raise.
Nido-Rus: Tier 4. Feels similar to Spectrier in having extremely polarizing matchups and being snowball-y, but with good common checks that are hard to play around for it to succeed.
SMB: Tier 3, building around it really pays off as it’s the pokemon that can snowball a game easier
Paraplegic: Tier 4. Its a one shot snowballer, when supported well it does its thing but you really have to engineer its success.
Porygon2: Tier 2→Tier 3
Actuarily: Tier 2. Such a reliable TR setter, and most of its checks lose to it under TR. Nothing combines reliable TR setting and offense quite like P2.
Yoda2798: Tier 2. Still a dependable Trick Room setter. There has been an uptick in Fighting-types, but it’s very much possible to set against teams with one, and then it does the same things as before.
Nido-Rus: Tier 3. Ends up sitting around doing nothing against a lot of the meta right now. Good fightings are also looking like they’ll stay, and between them, hazards, taunt, encore, toxic, snarl, etc, there’s far too many common ways to minimize this thing’s presence on the field.
SMB: Tier 3, I don’t think I’ve ever voted this to 2… “tier 3, good mon with many glaring weaknesses; toxic, knock off, taunt, no slots for protect, set up fodder, very passive if it doesn’t get the spa boost…” what has changed for it?
Paraplegic: Tier 2. I agree with our TLs.
Zapdos: Tier 3→Tier 4
Actuarily: Tier 4. Good on rain but the non-rain tailwind set just is ether not bulky enough or not offensive enough.
Yoda2798: Tier 4. Very difficult to justify outside of rain, other Tailwind setters are much better. Even with investment it’s still not as bulky as you’d like. Good on rain but I don’t think enough to justify Tier 3.
Nido-Rus: Tier 3. Non-rain sets are tier 5 at best, but it performs insanely well in rain to the point where tier 3 zapdos is justified for a tier 3 weather. Rain’s best tool for dealing with the vast majority of things that beat kingdra. Hurricane also still very broken, nothing switches in safely.
SMB: I can’t remember since when I’ve been calling this rain mon and voting it to 4…
Paraplegic: Tier 4. Its good on one style and isn’t truly a good fit anywhere else imo, but it does slap on rain.
Tapu Fini: Tier 2→Tier 1
Actuarily: Tier 2. Fini’s primary set nowadays is scarf (cm is very mid), which does a good job of setting misty terrain, having utility with like trick and heal pulse, and sniping some offensive threats. But it’s offense is very mediocre for a scarfer, so unless it’s getting super effective hits on frail offensive Pokémon, it won’t be doing much damage. Specs can also be used with good speed control. But fini ultimately suffers from the fact that it’s best counter is the most popular Pokémon, as well as its middling offense, leaving it in 2.
Yoda2798: Tier 1. Doing a lot better now that sets have moved away from Calm Mind, providing value more immediately and consistently. On top of that, the utility Tapu Fini brings from Misty Terrain and its typing are nice to have, so it’s no wonder it fits well into so many teams at the moment (#4 in usage for SCL and OSDT Top Cut, closer to above than below). Choice Specs pairing especially well with Whimsicott is worth mentioning. Strong 16-6 record in SCL reflects that Fini’s not just being used a lot, it is also performing a cut above the rest of Tier 2 too.
Nido-Rus: Tier 2. Has good utility options and resetting terrain is useful, but is a far cry from the commanding field presence that something in tier 1 would have, especially with calm mind falling off.
SMB: Tier 1, misty terrain just makes it have the “highest floor” between all the current tier 2 pokemons. Then apart from that it has a wide variety of good sets, a great defensive and offensive type and it’s going to do something on every game. Something as solid as tapu fini should be tier 1.
Paraplegic: Tier 2. Agreeing with act here.
Victini: UR→Tier 3
Actuarily: tier 5. It’s a cool mon with final gambit and maybe has some use as like a psyspam attacker, but just isn’t really worth using over the usual fire mons except for gambit, which is really niche.
Yoda2798: UR. Without any evidence to back it up I can’t reasonably vote to rank this.
Nido-Rus: UR. Same as yoda, there’s nothing to go off of in terms of actual tournament usage, to the point where I’m one of the only people I’ve seen use this even in random test games. Personally a big fan of this mon and think it possibly deserves 5 for scarf gambit and niche psyspam, but should get at least some usage before voting it there. If there was a tier 6 I’d easily vote it for there, wouldn’t mind seeing this in 5 if others vote for it.
SMB: UR, I thought when something that is UR is nominated you need to submit replays for it to count
Paraplegic: Tier 5. I’ve personally messed around with this before and believe in the power of gambit, if I didn’t have personal experience with it I’d be voting UR though because this mofo has 0 showings.
With the conclusion of 2022 invitationals and SS DOU no longer being current generation, we’ll hold one last VR slate for everything in the tier while it’s still fresh. So this will be a last call for nominations!
Genesect @ Assault Vest
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 240 SpD
- Extreme Speed
- Iron Head / Gunk Shot
- Flamethrower / Ice Beam
AV Genesect is the best pokemon in the tier. CB Genesect is a tier 1.5 mon, Shift Gear is tier 2, scarf is tier 3, but AV Gene is a meta breaker. It takes no damage from anything
252+ SpA Volcanion Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Genesect: 280-336 (80.9 - 97.1%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Genesect: 91-108 (26.3 - 31.2%)
252+ SpA Celesteela Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Genesect: 208-248 (60.1 - 71.6%)
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Genesect: 126-149 (36.4 - 43%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Fini Muddy Water vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Genesect: 73-87 (21 - 25.1%)
while performing standard Genesect duties of being one of the only good Rillaboom responses. Stab U-turn is the point of the mon, Espeed is excellent utility, and after that you can fill in the last slots with whichever coverage the team wants. Gunk kills Fini after a DL boost, but usually 2 of IH/FT/IB is the best option. It's a momentum bot and can snipe the kills that its team wants it to take with little counterplay.
Timid Specs Fini is a tier 1 set. It's a water type that can contribute against both good grass types (it can't switch into boomer, but it can turn off Glide for teammates or itself) and it holds a dozen mons down that would otherwise kind of run rampant. This pic pretty much summarizes my thoughts.
Tyranitar -> 2
SS DOU is a pivot-heavy metagame. Stealth Rock is the most important move a player can click during the game, as with little interaction possible from the opponent you can deal easily more than 100% hp if you get up early in the game (this is not always equal to a free kill, but it's often that straightforward. Chip adds up and the strong priority options available in the tier allow chip to be efficiently converted into kills without wasting much damage). The issue with SR is that its distribution is terrible;
The best users of stealth rock in order are Mew, Tyranitar, Landorus-I, Landorus-T, Metagross, and then a massive dropoff. Other pokemon such as Heatran, Diancie, Necrozma, Torkoal are all better mons than Lando-T but cannot fit SR onto their sets for various reasons. Generally they can't get em up safely, early, or consistently enough, or they have better things to be doing. Heatran teams generally want it to be dealing big damage with Eruption, and SR, while powerful, doesn't get to pick its targets as effectively as Eruption in Tailwind.
Tyranitar is one of the few SR users that can sponge neutral hits comfortably and contribute after getting them up. It can solidly check matchups like psyspam, rain, and sun merely by existing, but SR being as powerful as it is means that you can use it to essentially "buy insurance" against those extremes and it still can get as much value as another mon as long as it can up. Dragon Tail is cool; Ttar's schtick is that it wants to rack up chip damage, so getting 15% from dtail, another 12% from SR, and ensuring that a pretty passive pokemon isn't going to be set up bait is all that it has to do.
Metagross -> 4
It learns Stealth Rock, and doesn't hate using the move! That is unfortunately the primary redeeming quality for Metagross. Genesect can perform bulky Steel type duties far more effectively, Celesteela packs a harder bunch while having a better typing. It is actually very solid as a Coaching recipient; Zeraora, AV Metagross, AV Urshifu, and some form of Tapu Fini (multiple sets can work) is a Tier 1 core, which would probably see it placed in tier 3, but nothing else Metagross does justifies it being higher than 4. I don't think the VR is generally supposed to be determined based on overly specific team comps (Kingdra would be tier 1 in SM if it were), so drop it down.
Kyurem-B -> 4
Kyurem-B doesn't do anything. It's weak to SR, DD sets get intimidate cycled on, and AV just sits there and Icy Winds while the opp sets up Tailwind and then gets outsped and koed. One of the biggest losers from SR's resurgence.
Dragapult -> 2
Choice Specs Dragapult is pretty great. It always does a bit less damage than you want it to, but it's extremely good at getting that damage off. It still kills Lando-I with timid Draco, which is a pretty good baseline for a fast af, Fake Out immune, Glide resisting, pivoting tactical nuke.
Ferrothorn -> 4
ID Ferrothorn is a matchup fish. I do not think this is a controversial statement. The issue with its position in the meta is that its biggest weakness is shared with Genesect and Genesect is really really good, which causes many teams to pack fire moves. This results in Ferrothorn having fewer good matchups than a tier 3 matchup fisher should have. It is a menace when it finds the correct opponent, there's no arguing that, but those chances are pretty rare atm.
Politoed, Kingdra -> 4
They don't like seeing Tyranitar or Fini. Tyranitar and Fini are way better pokemon than either of them. They drop as a result. Rain is pretty mid.
Zeraora -> 4
Coaching Zeraora is somewhere around tier 2.5, but when players look at a VR and see Zeraora they assume it's going to be attacking. Any set that is not clicking Coaching is tier 5ish. Splitting the difference and putting it in 4 should steer newer players away from using it. Attacking Zeraora is really really bad.
Nihilego -> 3
Meteor Beam hits crazy hard. Lando-I dies, offensive Genesect dies, Mew dies to HH Meat Beam. It's a ridiculous amount of damage. Sometimes it snowballs afterward, but the wallbreaking potential of the one nuke turn is already better than tier 4.
Spectrier -> 3
It's Dragapult that gets the kills with Shadow Ball but always loses the speed tie, and can't U-turn or Draco. Killing Mew while being Fake Out immune is a very big deal. It's not a one trick pony either; Grassy Seed sets can either Snarl/Wisp or Nasty Plot, and both options are legit. Espeed immunity is pretty sick for a relatively glass-like cannon.
Dracozolt, Dracovish -> 2
Tyranitar's dirty secret. I have no clue why these guys don't get spammed. They're the definition of outspeed and OHKO.
252+ Atk Choice Band Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Naganadel: 246-291 (85.4 - 101%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Incineroar: 403-475 (102.2 - 120.5%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom: 207-243 (51.2 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Grassy Terrain recovery
Rillaboom gets 2 shot!! By a resisted hit!! Zolt resists glide too! They both have limitations but they're the most important pokemon in every game they're a part of. Zolt is a bit better usually on sand stuff but vish has more applications on other comps, such as bigstinkypoo's ladder tailwind or z strats rain vish team.
Arctozolt -> 5
The above points, +1 tier for ice coverage hitting grounds and making bolt beak way more threatening, -1 tier because it has to use jolly to beat dragapult, -3 tiers because hail is 3 tiers worse than sand.
Everything else is pretty good, there's a bit of low tier sweeping to be done (hi crobat) but nothing is too far off of where it belongs. I'll finish by noting that I didn't forget Excadrill; despite pushing for multi tier rises for 3 different sand mons, Exca is really bad. It belongs in 5 or UR.
Yoda edit: added sprites
Actuarily edit: Confirmed Nails meant Arctozolt, not Arctovish
tiers 1-4 are ordered. *tierlist I used is missing a few mons: pheromosa (would rank in tier 4), chansey & crobat (would rank in tier5).
2 --> 1.
Agree with the post above. I see fini as the best mon in the tier as of right now, specs and modest CM are both tier 1 sets and scarf isn't so bad either. Misty terrain + amazing defensive typing makes fini incredibly easy to splash on so many teams while providing invaluable support and wincon potential, definitely worthy of tier 1.
& --> top of tier 2.
If tier 1.5 existed, that's where I would rank both. I think they're quite clearly better than all the other stuff in tier 2, however they're easier to abuse than the other tier 1s if your opponent is the one in control of the pace of the game. They make sets flexibility their biggest strength but idt they're quite on the same level so I guess I'm nomming them both to 2. Nonetheless, both are very strong and defining mons for SS doubles and wouldn't be surprised to see either end up being ranked higher.
3 --> 2.
Abuses rillaboom just as well as genesect does but has the ability to nuke incineroar in one hit with meteor beam and has the most snowball potential of every other mon besides nihilego. It has a positive to neutral matchup into everything that is tier 2 or above (completely walls focusless landoi) and is one of the few viable steels so that's a big plus as well, deserves a rise imo.
4 --> 3.
strong wincon into passive semiroom/mew teams, hates dark types a little but can navigate through some negative matchups with grassy seed and redirection. Specs is viable too but a bit more matchup dependent, definitely enjoys p2 falling off in the meta.
4 --> 3.
Doesn't click tailwind as well as whimsicott and mew do but spdef is pretty solid on balance, esp with all those hyper offenses with fini and genesect being so popular. Offensive sets are good as well and it still does the same things it's always used to do on rain teams.
4 --> 3. --> 4.
Sand is viable and probably the best weather right now, ttar is the best sr user and I'd rank it close to tier 2 but not quite there yet, it enables hazards stack incredibly well with passive damage and dragon tail as well as making teams overall more safe against rain (or other weathers). Sand rush fossils are okay but generally ttar prefers other kinds of sand abusers so I'd rank them a little lower.
5 --> 4.
Trick room fell off hard in recent times because it lacks consistent abusers to make significant progress while TR is up. Lurantis is actually quite good at racking up superpower boosts during turns opponents are likely forced into pivots, contrary makes it able to keep all the progress and grassy glide can snipe a few surprise kills after trick room ends, should be ranked higher.
2 --> 3.
Not as dominant as it used to be a year ago, all recent trends ended making it a bit worse as the life orb set now faces competition from whimsicott as a tailwind setter for hyper offense and from dragapult as a fast special attacker. Scarf is a recent adaptation and has seen some success as well as sash but idt it's enough for it to still be in tier 2.
3 --> 4.
Rain hates sand, hazards and whimsicott HO, as well as all the other things it used to hate before, as a result it got a bit worse. Ferrothorn is still scary as hell in the builder but is very limited because it needs rain to actually sweep through fire attacks.
3 --> 4. --> 5.
Similar to rain, psyspam hates most recent trends, tyranitar in particular.
2 --> 4.
Suffered the biggest drop in viability as psyspam became less consistent, doesn't get to click spore as often as it would like and if it can't click spore then it's just way too passive. Also dislikes hazards.
I've seen this SCL result in probably the biggest metagame shakeup we've had in a while but I have to say I'm very happy with the current tier state, everything feels fairly balanced and there's decent room for creativity, haven't enjoyed building in SS like I do now for quite some time.
A quick forward - I enjoyed SS Doubles OU quite a bit. I supported the tier in two official team tournaments (with a 13-7 record and a trophy), wrote about the tier at length threeseparatetimes, have been following it ever since DLC2 dropped, and lead DOU C&C in two separate stints. I'll be less involved with doubles during SV, but this tier will always hold a special place in my heart.
My VR list is very subjective - this is how I see SS Doubles OU. I am not trying to be 100% objective since I want my rankings to reflect my preferences. I have also not paid much attention to circuit tournaments at all, so these nominations will be based almost fully off the SCL II metagame. I included usage stats from what Spurrific and I brought / built in SCL II since those heavily influence my rankings.
emma's SS Doubles OU Viability Rankings - post SCL II
Note #1 I wrote my own descriptions of each tier since that's how I group Pokemon together.
Note #2: I did not do nominations for every tier change I had.
Note #3: Pokemon within tiers are not ordered.
Note #4: Post SCL I Viability Rankings & Nominations - a lot has changed in one year!
* = did not use
** = did not build at all with
Tier 1 (3) - Pokemon you should be using on a strong majority of your teams.
Tier 2 (11) - Pokemon you should be using on a majority of your teams.
Tier 3 (11) - Pokemon you should use at least a few times over the course of a season, depending on your opponent's tendencies, metagame tends, or to simply mix things up.
Tier 4 (14) - Pokemon where you need a strong reason to bring them based on your opponent's tendencies or metagame trends. They should not be brought often over the course of a season.
Tapu Lele *
Tier 5 (11) - Pokemon where you need a very strong reason to bring them based on your opponent's tendencies or metagame trends. They should not be brought often, if at all, over the course of a season.
Tapu Fini: Tier 2 -> Tier 1
Nails and umbry. covered this. Tapu Fini is the third best Pokemon in the tier.
Nails and umbry covered these. Sand is not as splashable to me for Tier 2, but should be brought over the course of a season and are very strong, which fits my Tier 3 description. Hail is real.
Lurantis: Tier 5 -> Tier 4
umbry covered this. Season was on the line and we loaded up Lurantis. I think it perfectly fits my description of Tier 4 - not a Pokemon you have to bring over the course of a season, but when the stars align it is very powerful.
Terrakion: UR -> Tier 5
Beat Up + Justified is a legitimate option you have to respect. Won twotimes in SCL.
Incineroar: Tier 1 -> Tier 2
We did not use this Pokemon after Week 5. It's so bad into Genesect (especially when you are spamming Mew + Rillaboom + Tapu Fini), needs to run Heavy-Duty Boots, faces major competition from Heatran on Tailwind builds and Volcanion on Trick Room builds, and is not a Top 5 Pokemon in this metagame for me. Intimidate is not necessary when Urshifu-R and Diancie ignore it, CB Genesect U-Turns off for almost 50%, Rillaboom Knocks Offs its Boots or U-Turns off, Zygarde hits it for over 50%, and Kyurem-B is not a real Pokemon. It's still high Tier 2 for me (probably the 6th-8th best Pokemon because its still Incineroar) but not on my Tier 1's level.
Porygon2 hates Stealth Rocks and Spikes, doubling up with Diancie as Trick Room setters is tough (hello Urshifu-R and Landorus), and faces competition from Mew as a Trick Room setter. 6-7 SCL. We did not find a reason to bring this Pokemon.
Kyurem-B: Tier 2 -> Tier 4
Nails covered this. We did not find a reason to bring this Pokemon.
Metagross: Tier 2 -> Tier 4
Nails covered this. We did not find a reason to bring this Pokemon.
Tier 1: Extremely Splashable, consistent, and almost never dead weight
Tier 2: Great pokemon, but easier to punish excessive usage of than the pokemon in tier 1
Tier 3: Good pokemon, but require a decent amount of support to work
Tier 4: Team specific, but have merit
Tier 5: Not unusable, but hard to justify. You would need a really good reason to justifiably use any of these
Tiers are unordered, some pokemon weren't on the tiermaker like Pheromosa and Crobat (Phero is tier 3, Crobat is probably UR), and Whimsicott should be in tier 2 but I don’t feel like taking the screenshot again, so just pretend it’s there.
Tapu Fini -> Tier 1
This is probably my favorite pokemon in the tier, and I've thought it should be tier 1 for a while now. Calm Mind's only real checks right now are Grass-types like Rillaboom and Tsareena (Kyurem-Black doesn't want to take Moonblast and Fusion Bolt will never get boosted high enough to kill, as you just get Intimidate cycled. Zeraora is pretty uncommon and a lot of them are running special sets now, which Calm Mind beats easily) which are pretty easy to check in the builder (Genesect in particular is an amazing partner). Even in matchups where it struggles, it's almost never dead weight because of how great it's typing is defensively and how valuable Misty Terrain is. Tapu Fini is an amazing check to so many Pokémon in the tier and so many amazing partners for it have started to see a lot more use. On top of all of this, it's not only a defensive win condition. Scarf and support sets can be used on teams that want to be able to pivot it around more often to keep Misty Terrain up while making use of it's vast support movepool, and Choice Specs is great for immediate damage and 2hko's all of it's traditional checks with Moonblast with the exception of Amoonguss (and even then Ice Beam heavily chunks it). It‘s also done very well in SCL, so its not like it doesn’t have a good amount of tournament success. It's not quite the omnipresent threat it was in SM, but I don't think it needs to be to be considered tier 1. Incineroar and Kyurem Black have never reached anywhere near that level of usage, but have been/are tier 1 anyway.
Kyurem-Black -> Tier 3
Speaking of Kyurem-Black, this thing fell off hard. Dragon Dance hates hazards and just gets Intimidate cycled by Incineroar. It almost never feels threatening as a setup sweeper because it just gets Intimidated forever or burned and slowly dies. Even teams without Will-o-Wisp, Intimidate, or Stealth Rock still probably have ways to deal with it by beating it under Trick Room with Pokémon like Diancie and Metagross or just annihilating it with strong hits in the case of Whimsicott offense (which also commonly runs Incineroar anyway). It really struggles to find any matchups where it shines in this meta. Assault Vest isn't much better, it hits a ton of things for super effective damage and yet it's damage output still somehow feels underwhelming. Icy Wind is good into some matchups, but feels outright useless into others, and I don't feel like being an Icy Wind bot is a tier 2 level set. Assault Vest also hates hazards. If your main selling point is being a bulky defensive stat stick, then starting with a quarter of your health missing is kind of a big deal, to the point where I've even started running Defog on AV Kyurem teams. It feels really weird that a Pokémon with these stats isn't even all that good right now, but that's just how it is unfortunately. RIP king.
Zeraora -> Tier 4
Yeah Zeraora kinda sucks. It has some stuff going for it like having fast Fake Out, Knock Off being mildly annoying to switch into and Taunt is decent utility. It just never really feels threatening at all. It feels really passive because there are so many positions where the combination of Plasma Fists and Knock Off just doesn't make meaningful progress. It's best set is probably Assault Vest with Snarl and Volt Switch, or even a Choice Band or Life Orb set to give it the power it needs to actually threaten things, but even then it just feels so much worse than other options. It's not unusable, I don't deny that Zeraora can be extremely disruptive on the right team, but it's very much flawed and hard to use effectively. Being in the same tier as stuff like Stakataka and Nihilego which fit a similar description seems fair for it.
Celesteela -> Tier 2
Celesteela fits pretty well into the current metagame trends. Celesteela loves hazards because it's naturally middling special attack makes it hard for it to actually get OHKOs, and hazards fixes this problem. It also likes being paired with bulky pokemon that are good at spreading damage around, like Tapu Fini, Assault Vest Urshifu, Tyranitar, and so on. It's also am amazing Rillaboom check and has great snowball potential while still being very naturally bulky.
Not nominations but I want to talk about these mons anyway
Assault Vest is so good it’s ridiculous. It can trade damage with so much and is a great defensive tool against so many teams right now, especially with how common Tyranitar teams are. It’s extremely splashable and consistent, easily one of my favorite mons rn. I don’t think it should move, but it’s pretty epic
I’ve changed my mind about Scrafty a lot, I think it has a decent niche on semiroom right now and does decently well into the current metagame trends. One of the most important things for Diancie and Porygon2 teams is having good answers to Stakataka, and Scrafty is a very good answer to Stakataka. With Intimidate, Scrafty isn’t even 2hkod by any of Stakataka’s usual attacks, and even Body Press can be tanked to OHKO back with Close Combat. This along with it’s good matchup into Tyranitar and Landorus gives it a genuine niche that Incineroar can’t fill. It also has great support options like Snarl and Coaching, and while more Tapu Fini is obviously not the best for it, it’s usually paired with Volcanion and Rillaboom, which beat Tapu Fini pretty easily. This would normally be my routine Scrafty to UR nomination, but surprisingly I’m really liking Scrafty right now, and I think it deserves to stay tier 5.
Ok, thats pretty much everything. I think Amoonguss and Metagross should drop and Spectrier should rise but the other noms cover those mons pretty well and I don’t have much to add.
The last VR update based on activity when SS was current generation has been completed! In this update we looked at all the changes as a result of SCL, Invitationals, and the Fall Seasonal. Since this was the last vote of SS, even pokemon on the VR that did not receive a nomination we voted on. If a Pokemon didn't receive a nomination, it was included in the low tier sweep. We wanted to offer reasoning for any nominations that people took the time to make.
Thanks to everyone who nominated, especially with some very in-depth nominations! We tried our best to respond in-kind with in-depth reasonings for our votes - and as you can see this has resulted in the votes needing to be split into two posts because we ran over the 65K character limit.
Some quick news on the vote, we have added MADARAAAA to the VR council due to their expert performance in the 2022 circuit. Welcome! Also YoBuddy abstained from this vote.
On to the votes!
T3 -> T1
Actuarily: T2. After the nomination mentioned that AV genesect was the “best mon in the tier” I tried it out as well as played some against it, and it is quite good on pivot heavy teams and hazard stack, but I think all forms of genesect have been proven to win on these teams, whether it’s AV, Choice Band, or Choice scarf. AV’s bulk is nice, but the drop off in damage is noticeable, preventing it from sniping faster threats like choice scarf does, and not having nearly as powerful extremespeeds for cleanup as choice band. But overall this versatility in sets is huge in genesects favor, it’s often able to surprise the opponent. But I don’t think it’s quite tier 1 worthy - there’s still fire types on every team, and it’s not nearly as splashable as the other tier 1s, recently it’s been featured on pretty much just hazard stack & teams built around shift gear genesect (which has been tried so many times & has only ever been mediocre).
Yoda2798: Tier 2. I voted for this last time, Genesect is the best Steel-type and its variety of sets help it fit on a variety of teams. 9th in usage in Invitationals with an 80% winrate (12-3) proves it is good and not just an SCL fad. Notably, Choice Band fits especially well with the hazard stack teams which have risen up. Choice Band Extreme Speed, or the Speed afforded by Choice Scarf or Shift Gear, help it match well into the fast, offensive Pokemon and teams that are important to be prepared for. Not quite on the level of the Tier 1s, though.
Nido-Rus: Tier 2. Best steel type in the format and can tinker with its kit to fit on a wide variety of teams and beat specific threats. Last time this was nominated to tier 2, I was hesitant to see this make the big jump from tier 4 to 2, but time has shown that genesect continues to perform consistently well in this meta. I could also definitely see this in tier 1 with the AV set that was just shortly showcased near the end of gen 8 tournaments, but want to see more consistent long-term dominance with a second tournament like the upcoming DPL. Looking forward to another voting slate after seeing more developments in DPL and potentially SS open as well.
SMB: Tier 3 is fine since it should be at the same tier than mew as I have said more than once. I don’t consider locked sets good for it generally, I don’t think it wants to be locked into anything and they are very matchup specific. Shift gear and av are decent enough too. Honestly all of these sets are close to tier 3 and a bunch of tier 3 and lower sets don’t make a pokemon tier 2 or tier 1.
JRL: T2. It has a lot of versatility and fits into all offensive teams, putting great offensive pressure with its great movepool, its type makes it withstand some hits and switch to some of the opp's moves. CB hits too hard and extreme speed helps a lot on teams that run rocks + spikes. SG is very good because of his type that makes him hold up and can win vs many teams. Scarf is used in more balanced teams, it always does a good job, but it doesn't hit as hard as CB and more than a wincon it is a great offensive pivot. He is a very good poke and he always works on teams, a great type and a very good offense, but not relevant enough for tier 1
Madaraaaa: T2. Agreed with Jrl and Yoda. Amazing steel type, fits in many different type of teams depending on the item. Scarf is good, band hits hard, AV is really really solid (the best set for me now). If you don't know the item you could be surprised and when it's revealed could be too late. This pokemon is powerful. The stats and the ability allow to give it different combinations of moves. Stab (and downloaded) U-turn is one of the best moves in general to give momentum to the team. But genesect is walled by many fire types like incineroar, heatran, volcanion that are so popular. Struggles also vs other pokemons (celesteela and urshifu for example), and if is locked on a move sometimes seems useless on the field. I think overall is not at the same level of the pokemon in tier 1.
T4 -> T2
Actuarily: T3. As Nails said, it checks a lot of archetypes like weather & psyspam. In the last vote, I talked about how Tyranitar falls short of other SR setters, but it has proven itself that the role compression it provides as well as phazing + setting SR is worthy of being better than other setters. Alongside this, sand is a reasonable archetype, so T3 is a good fit. It still just has so many bad matchups into top pokemon, that it has to invest a ton into bulk, making it frequently too passive for T2. The occasional surprise CB ttar is fun though.
Yoda2798: Tier 3. I voted for it to go here last time, and the reasoning still holds, so I won’t go too in depth. Very bulky as long as you dodge its weaknesses, and provides valuable utility and passive damage. A centrepiece for sand or hazard teams, and notably strong into weather and PsySpam. Tier 2 is a little too far given its weaknesses and slight proclivity to being passive, though.
Nido-Rus: Tier 3. Agree with others on this. Another case where I was concerned this may have been a flavor of the month situation, but ttar has shown to be a consistent meta pick that makes sand as a solid archetype with hazards, phazing, chip sand damage, and solid bulk to take hits and dish out respectable slow damage.
SMB: tier 4, I still don’t get the usage of this outside of teams without a sand rush pokemon but i recognize that sand is better than tier 5 so tier 4 is a fine place for it. Most of the “hype” with this comes from playing mistakes vs teams that abuse hazards so idk what to say about that :shrug:
JRL: T3. I think its greatest potential is on more balanced teams with rocks and spikes helping with sand for more residual damage. If we talk about sand I think your best option is to use band or av with a more offensive set.
Dragon tail makes tytar annoying by damaging the opp more with rocks + spikes and avoiding the tr.
I think T3 is right for it, sand is a useful archetype, but it is less seen than other weathers and its defensive set can become passive.
Madaraaaa: T3. Good vs weathers, bulky and with stealth rocks. As before said by other members, sand is a good archetype and tytar AV or band fits well. Allows to dracovish/dracozolt to be dangerous. Tytar could be a wall for some high tier pokemons like incineroar, mew, but the typing suffers too many weaknesses and matchups. So tier 3.
T4 -> T3
Actuarily: T3. It’s done well recently, and has had some great innovations to bring it back into t3. Grassy seed is excellent on it, allowing it to not care about knock offs & raise its defenses, and we’ve seen some good use of sets with other moves like will-o-wisp & snarl. Still has some bad matchups, but is t3 worthy.
Yoda2798: Tier 3. 10th in usage for Invitationals with a 71% winrate (10-4), its performance there has swayed me over to the side of a rise since the last vote. Ghost-types are strong at the moment, and Spectrier has compelling reasons to use it over Dragapult, mainly because of the Grassy Seed Nasty Plot set. With Grassy Seed and Intimidate support it has surprising survivability, and Nasty Plot provides excellent win condition potential against teams which struggle to outspeed it. Invitationals has convinced me that Spectrier does well against enough teams for Tier 3.
Nido-Rus: Tier 3. Once again has seen a resurgence with bulky grassy seed sets where it performs really well. Takes hits well, has a good speed tier, and has both solid snowballing potential as well as decent support options that keep it from being too one-dimensional.
SMB: Tier 3, grassy seed + nasty plot is excellent at chipping teams or just to clean late game once the threats are gone. It requires some support yeah, but it doesn’t need as many free turns as other variants need. Specs is usable too and might get some surprise kills.
JRL: T3. spectrier grassy seed + nasty is amazing, +1 in def and losing the object make the knock do little damage and with nasty he puts great offensive pressure, a very threatening wincon, also they can't use fake out against him
It does best against balanced teams, but can be tricked with a scarf or encore whinsi.
Madaraaaa: T3. Has a value, is ghost and if kills become unstoppable. Needs the correct support in balanced teams with seed and np, but I don't see it so impactful, has a limited movepool walled by inci/p2 for example. I think lo set or specs with shadow ball is still strong, not more than t3.
T5 -> T2
Actuarily: T4. Dracozolt is the superior sand rusher, and while this could be used on most offense teams, it’s hard to justify it over an Urshifu. It definitely has merits with how ridiculously hard it can hit with fishous rend, but there’s enough water resists in the tier and the stiff competition from Urshifu keep in in T4 to me.
Yoda2798: Tier 4. Fishious Rend with Sand Rush is strong, but being effectively forced to lock into it, with the number of Water-type resists around, is a little sad. There being really good Water-types you want to have on your team like Tapu Fini, Urshifu, and Volcanion also speaks against it a bit, especially in comparison to Dracozolt which is the better Sand Rush user. Rain usage exists but isn’t significant enough to consider as a reason to rank higher.
Nido-Rus: Tier 3. Sand has seen a big resurgence and vish has been very solid. Decent defensive typing and bulk, great at cleaning up endgame or forcing big switches to keep up momentum.
SMB: Tier 5 i guess? I’m going to vote dracozolt to tier 4 since sand is tier 4 but i consider vish a bit worse even if it can be used in rain teams as well. Once it loses the speed advantage it’s deadweight and it’s only going to click 1 move even if it is strong af. This definitely shouldn’t be at the same tier than dracozolt…
JRL: T3. If you don't resist Fishious Rend you have problems, it also has a very good type that makes it resist some hits, very good in sand and outside it with Band or Scarf.
Madaraaaa: T4. Fishious rand is strong but rillaboom, fini, volcanion for example eat it, and in every team 2 water resists are needed. Has not the coverage and the offensive power of dracozolt, for me is worst.
T5 -> T2
Actuarily: T3. Sand has had good success in both scl & invitationals, and Dracozolt is the premier sand rusher. Its coverage is excellent (I prefer LO for this reason), able to hit a large portion of the tier super effectively, but has just enough bad matchups that keep it in check. The only downside compared to vish is it can’t pressure Incineroar quite like dracovish can, meaning it often gets intimidated. Zolt also has meh defensive coverage, meaning you often want a free switch into itBut sand has definitely seen a rise in viability, and so this should as well.
Yoda2798: Tier 3. I’m reluctant about voting a Pokemon this high when it was only 26th in usage for SCL (6 uses), and had a single use in Invitationals, but given how sand has only recently risen up and how well it has performed, and Dracozolt being the best Sand Rush user, I can get behind it in this case. It’s still a bit weird when Tyranitar is also Tier 3, and Sand Rush is only on like half of the teams with it, but I’d justify that as them being at opposite ends of the tier. Anyways, as others have said, Dracozolt has a better offensive typing than Dracovish, and better coverage, threatening to outspeed and KO so much stuff while sand is up.
Nido-Rus: Tier 3, similar situation to Dracovish except it beats somewhat different things. Both are solid and work well and like the recent hazards meta
SMB: Tier 4, can’t vote this higher than ttar. I consider sand tier 4 and dracozolt is the best sand rush pokemon.
JRL: T3. Same as dracovish with worst defensive type. Bolt beak hits very hard and has better coverage than dracovish.
Madaraaaa: T3. Better than dracovish, you need to be really careful vs this mon in sand. Hits hard, kills in one hit many pokemons. Better offensive typing, erases tapu fini by the field, volcanion too. Mixed orb with draco/fblast/bbeak is amazing, also band set is valuable.
UR -> T5
Actuarily: T5. The only real viable slush rusher, and the Nails team with t spikes Mew has had enough success that T5 is warranted. Hail is tough to build because you have to run multiple ice types, but Arctozolt’s offensive capabilities help make up for it because it can sweep so much of the tier.
Yoda2798: Tier 5. Niche, but the team it’s been used on has done enough for Tier 5.
Nido-Rus: Tier 5, hail has seen enough fringe usage to be ranked and be worth noting and arctozolt is a big part of what holds that together.
SMB: UR, I don’t consider ninetales or abomasnow good enough to be ranked so indeed, a pokemon that relies on these 2 to perform “well” should be UR too.
JRL: T5. The only real viable slush rusher, because offensively he can do work, but let's not forget that urshifu and genesect scarf outspeed him and can 1 ko him.
Madaraaaa: T5. Actuarily explained well and I completely agree with him about arctozolt.
UR -> T5
Actuarily: T5. Whimsicott’s rise has made beat up fringe viable, it did win two scl games, and outside of that having a fighting type that doesn’t just die to an attack from P2 is good.
Yoda2798: Tier 5. Pretty much a one-trick pony with Beat Up Whimsicott, but Whimsicott is viable enough that it’s a justifiable (pun intended) pick.
Nido-Rus: Tier 5. No dominant metagame threat but it’s viable and it can win, so to tier 5 it should go.
SMB: UR, not really good into anything? Gimmick tier. Ig it can beat unprepared teams but malamar can do that too.
JRL: UR. I don't think it has potential in this metagame, just beat up whinsi but not enough to justify it tier 5.
Madaraaaa: Tier 5. With whimiscott and priority blocker can do a decent job (for 1-2 turns then faints).
T2 -> T4
Actuarily: T2. AV is an absolute tank to take down, while having great coverage and able to hit a lot of the tier hard. It seems this nom is based on AV Gensect taking up AV Metagross’ role, but I don’t think there’s been enough evidence of this. Metagross’ second set of a cosmic power body press mon is one of the scariest in the tier, basically requiring every team to run some sort of disruption counterplay.
Yoda2798: Tier 3. Genesect is the premier Steel-type now and Metagross is a step below it. Cosmic Power does have win condition potential, but is not as likely to pull it off these days as it once was. People are more aware of the set to play around it, and with the offensive teams going around often doesn’t get a good chance to set up. The rise in Ghost-type usage is particularly detrimental: they can hit it super effectively while being immune to Body Press as well as the Fake Out spam which usually accompanies it. Assault Vest and Stealth Rock sets struggle heavily from its middling Speed and competition elsewhere. Metagross can be good, but needs the right team around it, which makes Tier 3 fair.
Nido-Rus: Tier 3. Non-cosmic power sets have been good but never been great enough for tier 2, and cosmic power is something we’ve learned to play around and the meta has adapted in a way that makes these sets a lot easier to beat, with trick, phazing, knock off, etc.
SMB: Tier 3, I still think that it’s a pokemon that wants to a lot of things and it’s not excellent at any (av, rocks + resist berry, cosmic power, scarf…). Cosmic power might be the best one out of these sets but it’s definitely not a tier staple and it’s not as good as the rest of tier 2 stuff while also relying on lots of support to success.
JRL: T3. I think cosmic power is the best metagross set because it makes it a win condition if you can position yourself correctly, the increased def and spe def make it very hard to kill. AV, shuca, occa berry are other common sets, they are effective at making it last longer, for example lando's earth power or heatran's eruption.
Steel roller is a very useful move since it gives gross the function of checking fields and being able to eliminate them, it is very good vs psychic spam.
I think T3 is correct as it needs great support to shine with its cosmic power set, but overall it has great bulk and can pivot into higher tier pokemon like rilla, fini, kyurem, or lele.
Madaraaaa: T2. Cosmic power set is really conditioning in teambuilding, you need something to counter it, now metagame adapted to it, but is still is a wincon set if supported well.
Metagross with av is a wall for semiroom teams, bullet punch and steel/ground/ice moves are really versatile. Metagross is bulky and faces easily terrain setters, with av or occa/shuca berry can endure hits by heatran, landorus and kill them after. In this case has stealth rocks on the set and seems able to use it easily, because is difficult to kill in one hit. I think is really strong.
T2 -> T4
Actuarily: T3. The rise of sand & hazards have been unkind to it (even if Kyu-b is also good on hazard stack), and DD is rarely worth it anymore, as there have been more and more ways to check it in the builder. AV still is able to hold balance together, checking such a large portion of the tier, holding it in T3.
Yoda2798: Tier 3. Meta trends have continued to be unkind to Kyurem-Black, sand is a difficult matchup, Genesect is unkind to it, Stealth Rock neuters Assault Vest sets, and Incineroar is everywhere. Whimsicott’s Prankster Tailwind also does a good job in neutralising Dragon Dance’s Speed advantage, and Choice Specs Tapu Fini is a real offensive threat to it. 21st in usage in Invitationals, after a poor SCL, a drop is warranted and I’ve been the one ahead of the curve pushing for drops in the past, but I’m not fully sold on Tier 4 just yet, it’s still a massive stat stick.
Nido-Rus: Tier 3. Has definitely gotten a lot worse, particularly lately with more genesect, bulky urshifu, tyranitar, hazards, etc. Hates all of these usage shifts, to the point where it’s actually rare to even see any Kyurem at this point. DD has also gotten worse and really doesn’t like prankster tailwind, but is still usable. I could see this dropping to tier 4 by next slate but wanted to be more reserved with this shift.
SMB: Tier 2, dd is still the best offensive set up pokemon and has very limited checks, some of them even lose to av, band or specs sets (good example of versatility). AV sets are still a staple on many balance teams and perform a role that no other pokemon can do.
JRL: T4. I think the meta has adapted very well to kyurem, to the point where he doesn't do the job it did months ago.
There are many threats that have seen more use and don't let kyurem do any work, tytar, metagross, genesect, pheromosa, diancie, lele and intimidate incineroar which is very annoying.
On the other hand, its AV set does work on balanced teams with rocks + spikes with dragon tail, but they suffer a lot against hyper offensive teams.
It is weak to rocks + spikes, which makes it unable to pivot much.
Finally I think tier 4 is his place.
Madaraaaa: T3. For sure in the last period of meta Kyurem suffered a lot. Many teams with hazards, steel and rock everywhere. Dd set for me is bad. Too many turns and Incineroar alone easily stop it. Scarf or band could be funny. I agree that is not a high tier mon anymore, but the stats overall are amazing and in balanced teams, in the right spot, a bulky assault vest (best item) kyurem is still really solid on the field.
T3 -> T4
Actuarily: T3. Rain is still really good and must be prepared for in the builder. Has still seen play in SCL & Invitationals in a few different ways, and I don’t think it should drop. The nomination lists sand & tapu fini as reasons that rain should drop, which while those are checks to rain neither are unplayable matchups, as is other things like whimsicott offense. I think Z Strats showed a good rain variation in SCL using Tornadus + Dracovish to counter these common rain checks.
Yoda2798: Tier 4. Rain is worse off than before, Whimsicott matches incredibly well into it, and sand is also not nice to face, along with Tapu Fini being more common than before. I do think like Actuarily said there is more to rain than just the standard structure, but it’s still not in as good a place now.
Nido-Rus: Tier 4. L + ratio + rain fell off + peli better
SMB: Tier 4, rain is tier 4. Since when rain was at tier 3 lol
JRL: T4. I think rain has been affected by whinsi's scaling with tailwind pranster, causing them to call kingdra on turn 1 and making it very difficult for rain or any weather to do more of a job, forcing their speed control variant to fix this as a semiroom.
Politoed is great as a rain setter, helping hand + scald + eject button is very good. Tier 4 I think would be the most correct for him.
Madaraaaa: Tier 4. Good bulk, good ability and nothing more. Zero damages, good supporting moves with helping hand/toxic/encore/haze but nothing special and too passive. Button is the best item. I think pelipper is better overall for a rain team.
T3 -> T4
Actuarily: T3, as I think rain is still tier 3. Due to dynamic speed control, it’s often easy to lead kingdra + a whimsicott check (tsareena/zapdos/ferrothorn/P2/Torndaus etc.) vs whimsicott teams and force your opponent to either sack their whimsicott t1 or if they don’t lead it you can just switch in Politoed. While it can have bad matchups, there’s still just a lot of ways to play rain vs most teams.
Yoda2798: Tier 4. Same reasoning as with Politoed pretty much.
Nido-Rus: Tier 4. Does not like fini’s return or the recent bulky urshifu sets, still struggles with rillaboom, hates espeed genesect.
SMB: Tier 4, rain is tier 4. Since when rain was at tier 3 lol
JRL: T3. Problem whinsi tailwind pranster has, if we ignore this, kingdra is great, hits very hard with muddy and has flying vs rilla coverage. Specs hits very hard and has great bulk that makes it resist some hits.
Madaraaaa: T4. Rain fell in usage. Fini and rillaboom are more than popular now. Kingdra doesn't change, offers good damages with lo or specs, can drop accuracy and is not a glass-cannon. But metagame changed and adapted well to this archetype.
T2 -> T3
Actuarily: T2. Agree with the nomination that Whimsicott has taken over some of Naganadel’s role as a tw setter on offense, but Naganadel is often paired with Whimsicott, just as a fast attacker with 3 attacks instead of 2 with tailwind. Dragapult is typically seen more as the lone fast attacker on slower builds, so I don’t think they quite have the same role, especially with modest Naga’s ability to get special attack boosts. Naga offense still did quite well in scl & invitationals, so I don’t think a drop is warranted.
Yoda2798: Tier 3. 14th in usage in Invitationals, after a similar placing in SCL with a very negative win rate there. The rise of Whimsicott has displaced Naganadel a lot, yes you can still use it as an offensive partner to it, but if you want one of them as your Tailwind setter it’s probably going to be Whimsicott. In a battle between two teams where one has Whimsicott and the other has Naganadel, Whimsicott wins the Tailwind battle with Prankster, and with Naga’s frailty it can often be KOed by Whims’ partner before even getting to set its own Tailwind. On the flip side, Whimsiscott can always set Tailwind, even if the opponent already has it up. Alongside that, there’s been a rise in speedy attackers which are even faster than Naganadel: Dragapult, Spectrier, Pheromosa, Sand Rush users; devaluing its Speed. Still great offensively as an attacker, but it’s no longer the offensive Tailwind setter, and other fast attackers give it competition and cause it problems, taking it down a notch from where it was before.
Nido-Rus: Tier 3, doesn’t really like recent shifts to more hazards, more tyranitar, extremespeed genesect, etc. Still solid but its frailty is more evident in current meta, esp when it can’t compete as well against whimsicott’s immediate tailwind pressure.
SMB: Tier 3 as it always should have been. I’ll repeat what I’ve always said about this; its calcs against stuff that it should beat are disappointing, and they are even more disappointing when the opposing pokemon ohkos back. It biggest flaw anyway is something as simple as that you have to pick 4 attacks and 1 item lol It wants more than 4 attacks (protect, tailwind, and 3 attacks) and more than 1 item (sash and life orb) and there are no combinations that make it good enough for 2.
JRL: T3. The key that its use has decreased is the appearance of whinsi with tailwind pranster, it also has difficulties vs psyquic spam and cannot hit heatran.
I think he still does very well offensively and is a very fast tailwind, but offensive teams where he was the only tailwind setter have a lot of difficulties against other offensive teams but with whinsi as opp.
Madaraaaa: T3. Naganadel has the fastest tailwind, a good moveset coverage, with life orb can really be an offensive threat, but not enough for a tier 2 pokemon. I think is amazing in ho team, but not as good as in a previous period of the metagame. Unluckily can learn only 4 moves (draco meteor and sludge bomb surely) so has to renounce to one between: fire move (doesn’t touch steel types, bad)/tailwind (no speed control for the team, bad)/protect (best set for me, but can easily be fakeoutted or attacked). Too frail, dies to multiple scarf mons, takes too many damages even with not very effective moves. Probably can kill one pokemon (or put tailwind) and die in the same turn, seems to have not the snowball effect (thanks to beast boost) had before. I think lo is still the best item, sash seems not optimal and scarf can be good vs weathers but generally not amazing. The damages are still incredible with orb, so is tier 3 for me.
T3 -> T4
Actuarily: T3, I think Lele has become the superior psychic terrain setter, with offensive sets able to punish switchins and wrack up damage, as indeedee is often sitting there clicking follow me as the opponent switches. psyspam is still tier 3, and Lele can function as well on teams that don’t even feature an e-force attacker, as it fits naturally on offensive teams that want to limit fake out slowing them down.
Yoda2798: Tier 4. Meta shifts have made Tapu Lele worse, especially Tapu Fini’s prominence and Genesect’s rise, this isn’t a tier above Indeedee. Lele’s main job is setting terrain, but while it does do more than that it’s not a substantial amount on top, and what it can do is limited by the set.
Nido-Rus: Tier 4. Better than indeedee as a general psyspam mon but recent metagame shifts, particularly genesect, fini, and ttar’s rise, have been a big issue for this. Don’t think the difference in viability between them is significant enough for a full tier gap, hence tier 4 nom.
SMB: Tier 3. I already mentioned that psychic spam is at the same spot than before. And this is actually a psychic terrain setter that does things!
JRL: T4. Rilla and fini are a big problem for him, plus all the steels that don't allow him to hit free. Scarf can be very annoying against offensive teams giving 1 ko to pheromosa, dragapult, naganadel or urshifu and can be combined with whinsi tailwind pranster teams to condition fake out, it has good support moves like taunt or ally switch.
Finally I think that psychic spam has problems to do a good job and tapu lele too.
Madaraaaa: T4. Best supporter for psyspam. But fini and rillaboom are too popular and seems not the best period for psyspam. Lele suffers also all steel types. I think Specs in a team with whimiscott could have space, other items for me now are not optimal.
T2 -> T4
Actuarily: T3. Agree with the nomination that psyspam’s viability has gotten slightly worse, and that’s the best archetype for Amoonguss. Rise of hazards is sort of bad for it, as it wants to pivot, but many hazard teams don’t have great ways of pressuring Amoonguss, so it can also heal off the damage of hazards on its allies. Amoonguss is a weird Pokémon where it is good, but hard to fit due to the need to check psyspam and you don’t really want to stack it with either Rillaboom or Fini. But T4 is too far of a drop to me, because it can be devastating to teams unprepared for it.
Yoda2798: Tier 3. A drop has been coming for a while; Amoonguss is awkward to have on a team with Rillaboom or Tapu Fini, and can’t reliably use Spore without terrain support, so is not that splashable and largely relegated to PsySpam teams. Fit it onto your team though and it’s valuable enough, it has Spore and is still the most viable redirector,, so Tier 4 is too steep a drop for me.
Nido-Rus: Tier 3. Agree with others, current metagame really does not favor it. The rise of fini, particularly offensive sets that pivot around and perform consistently without setting up, has made spore a lot less useful. This along with psyspam getting worse and hazards limiting regen recovery has made justifying amoonguss quite a bit harder. Still does amoonguss things well so tier 3.
SMB: Tier 3. If it had more splashability than psyspam it could still be 2, but it just doesn’t fit on that many teams. Generally teams are prepared for sleep with fini or many grass types, taunt… I wouldn’t say redirection is that valuable either, fitting fake out recycle gives better results for set up teams.
JRL: T3. I think it's a poke that conditions the build and there are balanced teams that suffer against amoongus.
Psyquic spam teams is where it reaches its greatest potential for using spora and supporting the team with rage powder, but in no case do you want to play it outside of this type of team.
Playing it with rilla or tapu fini doesn't seem to make much sense and playing a team without terrain means that if you play vs tapu fini opp amoongus it can't show its potential.
Tier 3 is correct for him, since if you are not prepared he can condition the match and vs balanced team does a good job.
Madaraaaa: T3. Still a good supporter, great ability. But all teams have at least a terrain and one spore immunity, so now that psyspam is less popular, amoong could be too passive/useless on the field.
T4 -> T5
Actuarily: T5. Sun was brought a handful of times in SCL & invitationals, nearly always in losses. It’s fallen off since the time of osdt & majors, and as such Torkoal should drop. The rise of sand is bad for it, and Fullroom hasn’t seen much success either.
Yoda2798: Tier 5. Sun isn’t that good, and Torkoal is very optional on Trick Room teams, compositions without it are more common (and better); other Fire-types, especially Volcanion, can still work well with it.
Nido-Rus: Tier 5. Unfortunately torkoal and sun as a whole just hasn’t been doing well enough recently. Ninetales is a better alternative unless using full trick room, and recent metagame developments with greater focus on hazards, phazing, ghost types, sand, etc all make it a lot harder to both get trick room up and make any meaningful progress with torkoal.
SMB: Tier 5, sun is not good (tr variants of it are even less good) and tr teams very often don’t need to fit it. It also hates hazards (yeah this is a good example of a pokemon that “hates hazards”).
JRL: T5. Sun is not the most popular weather, as it has a hard time developing its potential.
Torkoal stands out in full room teams where with speed control it can destroy, but there are pokes in the meta that do very well against it, incineroar, fini, tyranitar, diancie or zygarde. It also suffers a lot from rocks + spikes which makes eruption less hit.
If we talk about his contribution to sun teams, eject button is his best set, supporting the team, but he is very limited in some games where he can only set the weather and die.
Tier 5 is a good place for him.
Madaraaaa: T5. Sun is the worst weather, no space for torkoal in general. Obviously in trickroom could be dangerous but many pokemons wall it (all fire mons, diancie, tapu fini…). Too many good other fire type exist.