Resource Spikemuth Cup Discussion

zee

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Spikemuth Cup is an unofficial VGC community format that many tournament platforms are switching to in order to fill the downtime in the post 2022 World Championships offseason. The name comes from the side event at 2022 NAIC, which from there is based off of Spikemuth's gym leader, Piers, not dynamaxing. The community was eager for a format like this all generation -- the only time we had a metagame with no Dynamax, it was overrun by Restricted Pokemon like Zacian-C, Calyrex-S, and Kyogre.

Use this thread to talk about your thoughts on the metagame and your experiences playing. I'm going to kick this thread off with some of my thoughts are playing for a while

:ss/incineroar: :ss/rillaboom: :ss/urshifu-rapid-strike:

If you've played a few games of this format you've probably run into "the big three". Incineroar and Rillaboom cover for each other really well, creating free turns with Fake Out, pivot moves, Intimidate, and priority to put teams in a stranglehold. Urshifu-R can put pressure on slower compositions due to its favorable speed tier and the ability to circumvent both Intimidate and Protect as counterplay.

:ss/nihilego: :ss/celesteela:

The Meteor Beam-using Ultra Beasts are particularly effective at snowballing the game, sniping an exposed Incineroar with Meteor Beam can quickly lead to a fast +2 Special Attack boost, and thanks to Nihilego's Speed and Celesteela's bulk and defensive prowess, respectively, both can be difficult to remove before they claim more KOes.

:ss/tsareena:

Tsareena is a hallmark enabler of offensive teams thanks to Queenly Majesty preventing it and its partner from being stuck in The Fake Out Vortex as well as blocking Rillaboom's Grassy Glide. It also has a unique offensive coverage set with Power Whip, Triple Axel, and High Jump Kick. Taunt, U-Turn, and Helping Hand are all incredibly great moves for it.

The format has a lot of options and people are bound to exploring them in the coming weeks. So hit up the Showdown ladder and come back here to let us know your thoughts!

have some sample teams, courtesy of Zephyl

:volcarona: :rillaboom: :landorus: :porygon2: :primarina: :ninetales-alola:

:incineroar: :kartana: :landorus: :gengar: :tapu fini: :zapdos-galar:

:incineroar: :whimsicott: :regidrago: :gothitelle: :spectrier: :urshifu:

tagging Borghi because I know he's been playing this format way more than I have...
 
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I feel like hjk tsareena is fake, yes you hit incineroar and like ig heatran and kartana but if they protect you lose way too much momentum or if you actually miss because often you dont like wide lens taking up your item slot. I would run grassy glide over it on AV sets just because terrain is up so often ngl. I also think since ure already fake out immune and there is no max anymore, is HH even worth it when power whip just does 50-60% to things being a 120 bp stab move and tsareena having an attack stat of 120? Also i feel like putting nihilego and celesteela in the same thread is bullying nihilego tbh, mon is either best or second best offensive pokemon and often gets like 1-2 kills per match minimum especially with tsareena support. Steels are rare and common ones are steela and heatran and landorus straight up dies to meteor beam. Removes fairies for urshifu and basically doesnt have bad matchups. Something im personally very interested in discussing is koko vs regieleki. Regieleki has more damage output and extra speed though thats mainly useful for scarfers, koko has a terrain to stop amoonguss, can actually be considered an urshifu counter and still does so much damage with specs/life orb. Its also able to run a more supportive AV set with Nature madness and the natural bulk is the difference between living Surging Strikes or dying for example. Then something i wanted to discuss is the urshifus. I like urshifu-rapid because its so easy to slap on a team with incin rilla but on the right team urshifu-single can feel more overwhelming even though i consider neither ban-worthy like some people do.
 
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Borghi

Banana eater
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
To go on a bit of a tangent,

Iron Defense + Body Press Pokemon are absolutely insane, especially if they have STAB, recovery, or some other super good added affect.

The power level of this format is super low in comparison to max formats, and the games will end up going much slower as HO begins to fade as a major play style. The longer a game goes, the better chance these Pokemon have to get crit, but also the more deadly they become as their checks or counters slowly get whittled down or eliminated. I'm going to quickly list the best Pokemon for these roles and a very quick explanation as to what makes them good over others, as well as a downside.

:ss/appletun: - Having Recover and a decent defensive typing is great, the biggest problem is its weakness to fairy. Ice weakness does not matter.

:ss/avalugg: - Having Recover is great, makes it a solid standalone Pokemon, the SpD is horrible though. It does get sturdy which is cool.

:ss/blastoise: - The best thing is having Fake Out & Yawn, but the weakness to Eleki, Rillaboom and Kartana make this a hard sell

:ss/bronzong: - Absolutely great defensive typing and can set TR as support for the rest of the team, also has Hypnosis as an option. The biggest problem is getting obliterated by Urshifu-Single

:ss/cofagrigus: - Great defensive typing, can also set Trick Room, also has Pain Split as recovery. Absolutely falls to Urshifu-Single

:ss/corviknight: - Banger defensive typing with access to Roost, hard walls Kartana and both Urshifu if EV'd correctly. Mirror Armor is absolutely great in general, but Pressure is gonna be your friend here for longer games. Biggest problem is the rise in Spectrier and Eleki in the recent days.

:ss/ferrothorn: - The classic. Solid defensive typing, good ability, damaging recovery with Leech Seed, even though its unreliable. Incineroar is the #1 Pokemon in usage most likely and it HATES facing Kartana and Landorus-I, not to mention Volcarona.

:ss/kommo-o: - A great Pokemon that is super underused. This is the only viable one to get STAB on Body Press, which makes its damage absolutely crazy. Having Sub and 3 amazing abilities makes this Pokemon super hard to beat. Regidrago, Alolan-Ninetales and Whimsicott make it's life a living hell, but I think it may actually be the best Pokemon to use Iron Defense + Body Press

:ss/registeel: - Solid typing, great natural bulk, access to Amnesia. It's really good at its role, the biggest problem is finding time to set up, as its really hard to get going if people position their Urshifu correctly. On the bright side, its able to PP stall most Ghost types due to running Amnesia

:ss/skarmory: - This does everything Corviknight does but worse. The only reason it's on this list is because it's a little bit faster.

:ss/slowbro: - Great Pokemon, Water is an amazing defensive typing and it actually doesn't fully mind facing off against Kartana, just have to be wary of a crit. Also has access to Slack Off, which is amazing. Can decide between Amnesia, Protect, Trick Room or a Water STAB. Biggest problems are Eleki, Drago & a well timed Wood Hammer from Rillaboom.

:ss/torkoal: - I think Iron Defense + Body Press and then Burning Jealousy is actually Torkoal's best set. Gives an additional wincon to both Hard TR and Sun teams besides just going brrrrrr with Eruption. Hates Landorus-I and Urshifu-Rapid with a passion.

:ss/turtonator: - Solid defensive typing, the biggest thing is that it cannot be crit due too Shell Armor, which is absolutely huge for it. It also gets both Burning Jealousy and Fire Spin as options for a STAB move, both of which have insanely great benefits. Biggest issue is Landorus-I, Nihilego, Regidrago and Tapu Fini

Let me know your thoughts
 
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To go on a bit of a tangent,

Iron Defense + Body Press Pokemon are absolutely insane, especially if they have STAB, recovery, or some other super good added affect.

The power level of this format is super low in comparison to max formats, and the games will end up going much slower as HO begins to fade as a major play style. The longer a game goes, the better chance these Pokemon have to get crit, but also the more deadly they become as their checks or counters slowly get whittled down or eliminated. I'm going to quickly list the best Pokemon for these roles and a very quick explanation as to what makes them good over others, as well as a downside.

:ss/appletun: - Having Recover and a decent defensive typing is great, the biggest problem is its weakness to fairy. Ice weakness does not matter.

:ss/avalugg: - Having Recover is great, makes it a solid standalone Pokemon, the SpD is horrible though. It does get sturdy which is cool.

:ss/blastoise: - The best thing is having Fake Out & Yawn, but the weakness to Eleki, Rillaboom and Kartana make this a hard sell

:ss/bronzong: - Absolutely great defensive typing and can set TR as support for the rest of the team, also has Hypnosis as an option. The biggest problem is getting obliterated by Urshifu-Single

:ss/cofagrigus: - Great defensive typing, can also set Trick Room, also has Pain Split as recovery. Absolutely falls to Urshifu-Single

:ss/corviknight: - Banger defensive typing with access to Roost, hard walls Kartana and both Urshifu if EV'd correctly. Mirror Armor is absolutely great in general, but Pressure is gonna be your friend here for longer games. Biggest problem is the rise in Spectrier and Eleki in the recent days.

:ss/ferrothorn: - The classic. Solid defensive typing, good ability, damaging recovery with Leech Seed, even though its unreliable. Incineroar is the #1 Pokemon in usage most likely and it HATES facing Kartana and Landorus-I, not to mention Volcarona.

:ss/kommo-o: - A great Pokemon that is super underused. This is the only viable one to get STAB on Body Press, which makes its damage absolutely crazy. Having Sub and 3 amazing abilities makes this Pokemon super hard to beat. Regidrago, Alolan-Ninetales and Whimsicott make it's life a living hell, but I think it may actually be the best Pokemon to use Iron Defense + Body Press

:ss/registeel: - Solid typing, great natural bulk, access to Amnesia. It's really good at its role, the biggest problem is finding time to set up, as its really hard to get going if people position their Urshifu correctly. On the bright side, its able to PP stall most Ghost types due to running Amnesia

:ss/skarmory: - This does everything Corviknight does but worse. The only reason it's on this list is because it's a little bit faster.

:ss/slowbro: - Great Pokemon, Water is an amazing defensive typing and it actually doesn't fully mind facing off against Kartana, just have to be wary of a crit. Also has access to Slack Off, which is amazing. Can decide between Amnesia, Protect, Trick Room or a Water STAB. Biggest problems are Eleki, Drago & a well timed Wood Hammer from Rillaboom.

:ss/torkoal: - I think Iron Defense + Body Press and then Burning Jealousy is actually Torkoal's best set. Gives an additional wincon to both Hard TR and Sun teams besides just going brrrrrr with Eruption. Hates Landorus-I and Urshifu-Rapid with a passion.

:ss/turtonator: - Solid defensive typing, the biggest thing is that it cannot be crit due too Shell Armor, which is absolutely huge for it. It also gets both Burning Jealousy and Fire Spin as options for a STAB move, both of which have insanely great benefits. Biggest issue is Landorus-I, Nihilego, Regidrago and Tapu Fini

Let me know your thoughts
Have tested most of them and though you make some good points everything but ferrothorn and kommo-o (bronzong to some extent) felt niche tbh
 

ToastNoButter

is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
I'm putting my hyper offense team here as a replacement for the current hyper offense sample. I can see some of the thought process behind the current sample, using Gothitelle's Shadow Tag to trap opponents in against threats like Urshifu-R and Regidrago or using Fake Out to enable Spectrier to set up with Nasty Plot and snowball. However, there are some glaring issues, such as an inability to break through common bulky mons like Tapu Fini and a lack of a Trick Room matchup, which lead me to think that a better sample is needed.

:ss/urshifu: :ss/tapu lele: :ss/whimsicott: :ss/heatran: :ss/gengar: :ss/amoonguss:

https://pokepast.es/892254fb0a234863

The team starts off with the core of Choice Band Urshifu-S, Choice Specs Tapu Lele, and Focus Sash Whimsicott. Urshifu and Tapu Lele have their power level scaled up to 11 with choice items, as well as coverage and typing that blends well together, and Whimsicott enables them with speed control from Tailwind and chip damage from Moonblast. Urshifu's moveset is basic for the most part, with Poison Jab as a backup move for fairies. Tapu Lele is running its two strongest stab moves, Psychic and Moonblast, Dazzling Gleam for spread damage, and Psyshock for specially defensive mons like Primarina, Volcarona, and Assault Vest Rillaboom. Whimsicott is running Protect for additional longevity and Fake Tears to enable Tapu Lele and the remaining offensive team members against bulkier mons.

Next up is Heatran and Gengar, both holding resist berries and hitting fairies that Urshifu and Tapu Lele can struggle against. Heatran gives the team some necessary bulk against Trick Room and teams that force a slower pace, such as those with Clefairy or Amoonguss to redirect hits. The moves are pretty self-explanatory, STAB moves for damage and Earth Power for coverage (I will note that Overheat could potentially be better than Heat Wave, but I didn't test the former enough). Heatran is running Shuca Berry, despite it not being useful against Lando-I, because it's helpful against literally all other ground moves: High Horsepower from Rillaboom, Glastrier, and even Mamoswine, or Earth Power from opposing Heatran, Torkoal, Venusaur, and Lando-T (don't know how good this mon is but worth mentioning). Gengar gives the team additional speed control and more offensive coverage and type synergy with Urshifu and Tapu Lele. Colbur Berry allows it to take dark hits from a few common mons, such as Urshifu-S's Sucker Punch, Assault Vest Rillaboom's Knock Off, and Incineroar's Throat Chop. Just like Heatran the moves are mostly self-explanatory, STAB moves and Icy Wind for speed control and getting around redirection against Lando-I specifically.

Finally, the team ends with Amooonguss. For the longest time I really didn't want to put the impish impostor on the team, and tried to stick it out with Rillaboom. However, despite the similarities between the two, the auspicious Amogus is generally more helpful against opposing teams that the team otherwise would struggle more with, namely Trick Room teams and balance teams with Scarf Urshifu-R and many positioning options such as the Fake Out bros Incineroar and Rillaboom and redirection with Amoonguss and Clefairy/Togekiss. So I settled to slap the sussy shroom on the squad. Amoonguss is holding Rocky Helmet to put bulkier mons like Urshifu-R and Rillaboom more easily into range of the offensive threats of this team, with Whimsicott Moonblast more reliably KOing Urshifu-R after a hit of Rocky Helmet, and the same applying to Urshifu's Wicked Blow or Close Combat for the latter. Self-explanatory moves, with Sludge Bomb to chip fairies and bulky grasses like Tapu Fini, Clefairy, Rillaboom, and Tsareena.

For EVs, Urshifu, Whimsicott, and Gengar tended to do their jobs well enough with simple max max spreads. As I tested the team, I realized that Tapu Lele didn't need to be timid, as the fastest thing outside of opposing tailwind that I could think of, max speed Timid Venusaur in Sun (290) or Naganadel with +1 speed (285), were still outsped by Modest Tapu Lele. 236 speed EVs allow it to hit 146 speed, just outspeeding in Tailwind the annoying non-sunflower sun flower. Timid Kingdra in rain is one decently popular mon that is faster with Modest Lele that Timid Lele would outspeed, but Amoonguss helps there, and Tapu Lele takes Helping Hand Life Orb Muddy Water in rain. 20 hp and defense EVs allows Tapu Lele to always take Jolly max attack Urshifu-R's Surging Strikes and max attack Adamant Rillaboom's Grassy Glide. The rest were put into special attack, leftover 4 in special defense. Heatran, being a bulkier member of the team, didn't need a lot of speed, so I gave it 116 speed EVs to hit 112, outspeeding max speed Adamant Choice Scarf Urshifu (223) when in Tailwind, and most Tapu Fini and Rillaboom. Max special attack modest to do as much damage as possible, then 4 in each defense and the rest in HP. Amoonguss is max HP with enough defense to hit the jump point with a Relaxed nature, and the rest was put into special defense. This allows Amoonguss to take two max attack Adamant Urshifu-R Surging Strikes or Close Combats and two Choice Specs Primarina Hydro Pumps.

252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 20 HP / 20 Def Tapu Lele on a critical hit: 126-147 (85.1 - 99.3%) -- approx. 2HKO
252+ Atk Miracle Seed Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 20 HP / 20 Def Tapu Lele in Grassy Terrain: 121-144 (81.7 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Kingdra Helping Hand Muddy Water vs. 20 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele in Rain: 121-142 (81.7 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Mamoswine High Horsepower vs. 132 HP / 4 Def Shuca Berry Heatran: 152-182 (83 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Tapu Fini Muddy Water vs. 132 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 146-174 (79.7 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Def Stakataka Body Press vs. 132 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 138-164 (75.4 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Black Glasses Urshifu Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Colbur Berry Gengar-Gmax: 109-129 (80.1 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar in Grassy Terrain: 63-74 (46.3 - 54.4%) -- 8.6% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 156 Def Amoonguss: 93-109 (42 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Amoonguss: 80-95 (36.1 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Amoonguss: 172-203 (77.8 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Amoonguss: 194-230 (87.7 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

P.S. I have nothing against Zephyl, I appreciate that we have samples in the first place. Shoutout Borghi for eventually getting me to use funki fungi over funke monke.

mod edit: I added sprites!
 
Thought I'd share this Landorus-I spread I came up with that has served me well, it's definitely not perfect nor optimized but I think it has potential. Feel free to use as a sample or as a benchmark to work from.

Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Level: 50
EVs: 92 HP / 4 Def / 28 SpA / 156 SpD / 228 Spe
Timid Nature
- Earth Power
- Sludge Bomb
- Psychic
- Protect


The speed tier speed creeps max Spe Urshifu, the HP and SpDef combination is what I think (I'm not an EVing expert) is the minimum investment while optimizing as much HP as possible to have a 6.3% chance to OHKO from Timid 252 SpAtk Meteor Beam Nihilego. This has worked great in ladder Bo1 since most players won't expect Lando-I to be bulky or Sash, so they feel safe enough only Meteor Beaming into that slot and using their other Pokémon to disrupt or attack the partner.

I haven't extensively done damage calcs but Life Orb + Sheer Force provide so much firepower by themselves that you don't really need a lot of investment to pick crucial KOs. I've not yet encountered an AV Rilla with enough SpDef investment to survive 2 Sludge Bombs even after terrain recovery, so most of the time this is gonna be a sure 2HKO. Likewise Shuca Berry and SpDef-heavy Incineroars don't seem to be common in this early stage of meta development either so Earth Power is going to be a OHKO most of the time.
 
I'm seeing a lot of item choices that I wouldn't have expected in some of these replays. I can understand seeing leftovers on a body press mon, but I'm seeing it on other mons and I'm also seeing rocky helmet. What makes these items better in spikemuth cup when they're so uncommon in vgc traditionally?
 

Borghi

Banana eater
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I'm seeing a lot of item choices that I wouldn't have expected in some of these replays. I can understand seeing leftovers on a body press mon, but I'm seeing it on other mons and I'm also seeing rocky helmet. What makes these items better in spikemuth cup when they're so uncommon in vgc traditionally?
It’s not that they’re uncommon in VGC traditionally, they tend to be uncommon in Gen8 VGC due to how fast the games play
 
It’s not that they’re uncommon in VGC traditionally, they tend to be uncommon in Gen8 VGC due to how fast the games play
looks like rocky helmet amoonguss in particular was a vgc 2015 special, neat
I'm guessing the primary purpose now is as an urshifu check?
 
I'm seeing a lot of item choices that I wouldn't have expected in some of these replays. I can understand seeing leftovers on a body press mon, but I'm seeing it on other mons and I'm also seeing rocky helmet. What makes these items better in spikemuth cup when they're so uncommon in vgc traditionally?
Dynamax is the reason why these items didn't see a lot of usage. Rocky Helmet is completely invalidated by it because no max move is a contact move, you'd rather have an item that helps you survive those attacks instead. Leftovers pretty much only saw usage in mons that absolutely required it to work viably, these mostly being Body Press abusers and other set-up reliant mons like Fini.

This "sudden shift" you mention also happened in Series 10, where a good variety of mons started running Rocky Helmet (Amoonguss, Whimsicott, Zapdos, Landorus-T, Latias, Gyarados). Granted you could argue this was because the meta back then was the perfect environment for Rocky Helmet to be very valuable with any combination of Zacian / Urshifu-R / Rillaboom / Incineroar on almost every team, but still.
 
Although zapdos is not the most resistant pokemon in the format, that was demonstrated when the dynamax was still available, nevertheless, I like to use it, and I would like to share it here with several of you IwI (although I do not consider it the great wonder, but if you can work very well):

Zapdos @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Static
Level: 50
EVs: 236 HP / 140 Def / 4 SpA / 124 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt / Volt Switch
- Hurricane /Heat Wave
- Roost
- Protect

The points in EVs put into health and solid defense on both sides means he can tank regielequi's thunderbolts and other special attackers like incarnate landorus:

252 SpA Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 236 HP / 132+ SpD Zapdos: 160-189 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Bomb vs. 236 HP / 132+ SpD Zapdos: 133-156 (35 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

it can use heat wave to respond to ferrothorn or scizor as well as give it cover, hurricane works perfect with rain teams, taking down rillaboom, urshifu singles, volcarona and tsareena, with Rocky Helmet apart from punishing pokes with some damage like urshifu single strickes, rillaboom and others like fake out inci, can paralyze them by 30%, it is cumulative, while zapdos can calmly use roost to recover that lost life.

Without the best investment in special attack, it's still capable of hitting pokemon like tapu fini Bulki and moltres galar hard with some investment in health too:

4 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 188-224 (54.6 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Moltres-Galar: 194-230 (50.5 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Clearly neither this poke nor the investment are perfect... but I had a lot of fun using it, and I like that my other friend is using it, and maybe she can update it, but it does its role very well HwH.
 
I think Trick Room has a real shout for being strong this format. There are plenty of common Trick Room abusers like Torkoal, Stakataka, Araquanid, Amoonguss, and Porygon2 that were strong in previous formats that can find success in this new metagame. The biggest obstacles to the composition are the new threats in the Urshifu formes and Rillaboom, with their ability to get around Intimidate and speed control, respectively. With careful teambuilding, I think hard or soft Trick Room comps can really shine.

This is the team I’ve had a lot of success with, utilizing P2, Stak, and Araq to great effect: https://pokepast.es/9580fe9ae17f336b
The team’s not perfect, not even close, but it’s got a lot of positive matchups and Life Orb Stak kills way more than it should. Biggest obstacles are Iron Defense/Body Press Steel types like Ferrothorn and Registeel.





Toast’s team does have a good matchup into me, though, as I learned the hard way.
 
The fact that teams in TR are dangerous when running Trick Room, pokemon that abuse this like Araquany, Amoogus, Stakataka, Torkoal, Hatterene, etc, especially Stakataka since if you even let it TR, unless you have a poke with Steel/Ground, Fight/Steel or another Mon that can counter it, it is practically difficult to take it down on the physical side (low TR) pokes like gastrodom do well up to a certain point, porygon can withstand almost everything and if you don't have a poke With a knock off or a strong fight, this fight is lost.
 

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