Sneasel has been banned

[Lhions]

Why do people think that Sneasel counters Tangela, Meditite, Gigar, Missy, or Yanma? All of those Pokemon run common moves that OHKO it. So that's another common misconception.......
It should also be noted that Meditite and Tangela actually check Sneasel, though not very reliably.

Also, that slippery slope "we ban Sneasel we ban all gen 5 ubers so we can't ban Sneasel" counter argument doesn't make any sense. First of all, all of those Pokemon would need to be tested in a Sneasel free environment and if they are broken (like they have been the past 2 gens) then sure, they will get banned as well....so what? Having 5-6 Pokemon on a ban list is still pretty small even considering the smaller Pokemon base there is for LC. It's like saying "oh we can't ban Rayquaza/Kyogre because they check <list of Pokemon they check>". Think about that for a second.

Meditite dont chek sneasel, knock off do more than 90% damage and then Sneasel only has to use Ice Shard.
And that we are saying is that Sneasel has to be banned at the time the pokemons are gonna be broken in a Sneasel free enviroment can be banned too

 

[prem]

Meditite dont chek sneasel, knock off do more than 90% damage and then Sneasel only has to use Ice Shard.
And that we are saying is that Sneasel has to be banned at the time the pokemons are gonna be broken in a Sneasel free enviroment can be banned too

meditite loosely checks sneasel because after something dies you can bring it in and bullet punch while sneasel runs away. its a check not a counter. it doesn't have to be able to switch in.

I sitll dont understand that arguement. if something is broken we should ban it, simple as that. there is no reason to keep a pokemon in the metagame that is broken, especially not because "it keeps other pokemon from being broken". if those pokemon are broken they will be banned at a later date. I honestly dont know why this is called a quick ban because honestly we have been playing this metagame for 6 weeks (which is about the length of a suspect round anyway). the only difference between this and a suspect test is that only Blarajan is voting, over a full council. so after sneasel is banned we will let the metagame settle some more and then by that point pokebank will be released and we are going to suspect test whatever else is broken at the time.

 

[macle]

some thoughts on some people's arguments

Sneasel helps keeps other potentially broken Pokemon in check - this will create centralization at the top of the metagame which we should all agree is a problem that happened in bw lc that we don't want to happen again. If you have to use 1 pokemon to check a lot of pokemon, its not that healthy for the meta.

Sneasel forces me to use a counter - this is a dumb reason. You always are gonna need a counter for the top pokemon in a tier but if you have to start using irrelevant pokemon to just counter 1 mon thats bad.

Sneasel messes up speed tiers - good argument. It ruins the competitiveness of the meta since it can just easily revenge kill the majority of pokemon.

Sneasel is better than every pokemon - good argument. Basically on any team without Sneasel, you can remove a pokemon and change it to Sneasel and it will be a better team (theres some exceptions but those are more dedicated teams to a certain play style). Its just really unhealthy.

 

[Lhions]

some thoughts on some people's arguments

Sneasel helps keeps other potentially broken Pokemon in check - this will create centralization at the top of the metagame which we should all agree is a problem that happened in bw lc that we don't want to happen again. If you have to use 1 pokemon to check a lot of pokemon, its not that healthy for the meta.

Sneasel forces me to use a counter - this is a dumb reason. You always are gonna need a counter for the top pokemon in a tier but if you have to start using irrelevant pokemon to just counter 1 mon thats bad.

Sneasel messes up speed tiers - good argument. It ruins the competitiveness of the meta since it can just easily revenge kill the majority of pokemon.

Sneasel is better than every pokemon - good argument. Basically on any team without Sneasel, you can remove a pokemon and change it to Sneasel and it will be a better team (theres some exceptions but those are more dedicated teams to a certain play style). Its just really unhealthy.

Totally agree with you in the basic points, that we are saying is just that is less unhealthy have Sneasel in the tier than ONLY ban Sneasel (At least is that i think)

 

[chimp]

Lets not forget that Ice/Dark STAB is only resisted by (correct me if I'm wrong) 1 LC Pokemon: Houndour. Who is outsped and destroyed by brick break anyway. There is Makuhita, but Makuhita can't do anything to Sneasel's teammates, and without eviolite still takes about 50% from Ice Punch

 

[Heysup]

Sneasel forces me to use a counter - this is a dumb reason. You always are gonna need a counter for the top pokemon in a tier but if you have to start using irrelevant pokemon to just counter 1 mon thats bad.

Dat oxymoron.

The argument is that it has no effective "counters", not that you have to use them. It's kind of hard to use them if they don't exist.....

 

[Sergetank]

Lets not forget that Ice/Dark STAB is only resisted by (correct me if I'm wrong) 1 LC Pokemon: Houndour. Who is outsped and destroyed by brick break anyway. There is Makuhita, but Makuhita can't do anything to Sneasel's teammates, and without eviolite still takes about 50% from Ice Punch

Carvanha and Pawniard resist Ice/Dark, as do other Sneasel. If Azurill is Fairy or Normal/Fairy, with Thick Fat it would resist both too. I don't think any of them can tank a brick break either.

 

[chimp]

Carvanha and Pawniard resist Ice/Dark, as do other Sneasel. If Azurill is Fairy or Normal/Fairy, with Thick Fat it would resist both too. I don't think any of them can tank a brick break either.

Oh true, thanks.

Well, either way, all 3 of them are wrecked by brick break/poison jab.

 

[macle]

Dat oxymoron.

The argument is that it has no effective "counters", not that you have to use them. It's kind of hard to use them if they don't exist.....

i should have phrased it better. People have said how they need to have checks on their team for sneasel now. That is a bad argument.

Sneasel having no counters is a good one.

 

[Electrolyte]

The nature of Sneasel as well as how it functions as an attacker makes "counter" discussion a poor argument, in my opinion. As I adressed earlier, regardless of whether or not you have a counter to Sneasel, something is going to be heavily crippled / taken out. There is absolutely nothing in the metagame that can tank an LO Knock Off and escape unharmed, even if it does KO Sneasel in the process. Sure, Sneasel may have some counters, but it's not as if it can't severely cripple them with powerful attacks and Knock Off, making it dangerous and nigh impossible to play around Sneasel without suffering some sort of damage on your side. In order to counter Sneasel, you MUST either sack a Pokemon or lose the item on one of your Pokemon. This makes Sneasel very broken.

Regardless of whether it actually has solid counters or not (I believe it does but not enough) it needs to be quickbanned because of just how crippling and powerful Knock Off, regardless of whom it is used against. You simply cannot deny that fact.

 

[blarajan]

I'm going to update this post later tonight with reasoning and explanations, I just don't want to right now.

Sneasel has been banned from Little Cup.

 

[blarajan]

I promised a post and I am days late so here it is. I took all of the posts in this thread into consideration when making my decision.

I banned Sneasel because if it forces a switch, it always moves twice in a row, save for like Fake Out and Extremespeed. If you want to use Sneasel to hit again, you will always move first. The reason for this is its high base speed and access to priority in Ice Shard. If Sneasel forces a switch (which it always does, and always uses Knock Off), then you have an Evioliteless / Berry Juiceless Pokemon or whatever. Since you used Knock Off, it does not have a Choice Scarf and cannot in any way outspeed your Sneasel as it is the fastest unboosted Pokemon in the tier. You then have the option to Ice Punch, Brick Break, Knock Off, or, if they have priority like Timburr or Croagunk, use Ice Shard. Either way, if you need to or feel inclined to hitting twice, YOU ALWAYS WILL. That was too much, in my opinion. Combined with its insane attack stat, good bulk, amazing typing, and access to STAB Knock Off made it too broken to continue. I took arguments regarding centralization and recognized their value. I appreciated statements such as those made by Antar regarding the dynamic Sneasel caused, but it is in my opinion that one broken Pokemon should not stay in the tier to check other broken Pokemon. If Sneasel is obviously broken, the things it makes less broken are not worth keeping it for.

The above factors combined with the responses to "is Sneasel making the tier less fun?" and "is it deterring people from playing" was enough for me. The ability to always move twice in a row and to always be threatening and its base stats and the lack of checks and counters in the tier were enough to add Sneasel to the quick banlist.