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Smogon's Official Ladder Tournament VIII - Introduction
- Thread starter Quite Quiet
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OLT is about spamming 
on stall to make people the most pissed so u can win by them DC'ING
on stall to make people the most pissed so u can win by them DC'ING
ugh, I think you typo'd that, it's about whining
no, no, no. I do not think you get it, You need to make people bash their computer with kings rock cloyster
I would like to preface this post by saying Pierrick is a massive clown and has exemplified an astonishing amount of hubris (thank you august).
However, I do think he deserves to keep his spot and directly enter playoffs. He himself followed all rules and played on ladder cleanly to the best of his abilities. I mean anyone can get a forfeit at any elo and no one bats an eye. He was at a certain elo, laddered, got points, and in an entirely reasonable manner he thought he was safe. What’s he gonna do, get another game on the spot to account for the point diff? There’s also nothing remotely objective in place that distinguishes this case from say 1700 forfeits 2 days ago. If you want to discuss rules going forward sure but he didn’t break tour rules as they are now.
This is unfortunate but just the nature of the ladder. Let Pierrick expose himself the traditional way.
Sincerely,
The Breeze
However, I do think he deserves to keep his spot and directly enter playoffs. He himself followed all rules and played on ladder cleanly to the best of his abilities. I mean anyone can get a forfeit at any elo and no one bats an eye. He was at a certain elo, laddered, got points, and in an entirely reasonable manner he thought he was safe. What’s he gonna do, get another game on the spot to account for the point diff? There’s also nothing remotely objective in place that distinguishes this case from say 1700 forfeits 2 days ago. If you want to discuss rules going forward sure but he didn’t break tour rules as they are now.
This is unfortunate but just the nature of the ladder. Let Pierrick expose himself the traditional way.
Sincerely,
The Breeze
As the person that made the decision being cited as precedent, reading these situations as equivalent and using it to retroactively remove him from the playoffs is nonsense (though, hilarious considering the shit he was talking 
)
In smogon tour the points you get from a game are nulled only if the person throwing had a 100% win and throws from there (see the linked case, or aurella in season 29 for examples).
So are there no precedents for this scenario? Glad you asked, for a situation where one person throws without having a 100% win look at classic 5, a much closer analogue to this where linearcurve threw vs fakes, and got tourbanned as a result, but since fakes had a chance to win he got to keep his points.
The rationale for this being the case is this: imagine it's the last tour of the season and you're 1 point away from qualifying the playoffs and we're playing, i have last mon scarf togekiss vs your last mon breloom, all i need to do to win is click air slash, i win the game 95% of the time right? but let's say i have 0 points and fucking hate you. instead of clicking air slash i can just forfeit and turn that 95% chance to 100% to block you from qualifying. Removing your ability to dodge that air slash is obviously ridiculous and so the only situation where points should be nulled after the fact is when a player is deliberately tossing a 100% win.
So the current situation as i understand it was: Pierrick was 5 points below cutoff, searched for a ladder game and got Pheo who forfeited turn 0 due to getting a bad matchup, putting Pierrick at 11 points above the cutoff, Pierrick figured he was safe and didn't search any more. The round ended and he qualified. Pierrick did literally nothing wrong, he assumed the game would count cause every other game that was forfeited turn 0 to every other player in every other olt counted, and so he was robbed from his chance to qualify because of factors 100% outside of his control. it was turn 0 and he apparently had a good matchup too (edit: i have been informed they played that exact matchup before and pierrick won easily, come on lmao), it's the example from the above paragraph turned up to 11. It's absolutely ludicrous to retroactively take away his points, and creates a very dangerous precedent. Sniping people at the top of the ladder in the last few minutes of a cycle is enough of an ordeal when you actually have to win the game to block someone.
tldr: apply the classic precedent since the situation more closely resembles it, let pierrick in the playoffs.
)In smogon tour the points you get from a game are nulled only if the person throwing had a 100% win and throws from there (see the linked case, or aurella in season 29 for examples).
So are there no precedents for this scenario? Glad you asked, for a situation where one person throws without having a 100% win look at classic 5, a much closer analogue to this where linearcurve threw vs fakes, and got tourbanned as a result, but since fakes had a chance to win he got to keep his points.
The rationale for this being the case is this: imagine it's the last tour of the season and you're 1 point away from qualifying the playoffs and we're playing, i have last mon scarf togekiss vs your last mon breloom, all i need to do to win is click air slash, i win the game 95% of the time right? but let's say i have 0 points and fucking hate you. instead of clicking air slash i can just forfeit and turn that 95% chance to 100% to block you from qualifying. Removing your ability to dodge that air slash is obviously ridiculous and so the only situation where points should be nulled after the fact is when a player is deliberately tossing a 100% win.
So the current situation as i understand it was: Pierrick was 5 points below cutoff, searched for a ladder game and got Pheo who forfeited turn 0 due to getting a bad matchup, putting Pierrick at 11 points above the cutoff, Pierrick figured he was safe and didn't search any more. The round ended and he qualified. Pierrick did literally nothing wrong, he assumed the game would count cause every other game that was forfeited turn 0 to every other player in every other olt counted, and so he was robbed from his chance to qualify because of factors 100% outside of his control. it was turn 0 and he apparently had a good matchup too (edit: i have been informed they played that exact matchup before and pierrick won easily, come on lmao), it's the example from the above paragraph turned up to 11. It's absolutely ludicrous to retroactively take away his points, and creates a very dangerous precedent. Sniping people at the top of the ladder in the last few minutes of a cycle is enough of an ordeal when you actually have to win the game to block someone.
tldr: apply the classic precedent since the situation more closely resembles it, let pierrick in the playoffs.
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What shock me the most here is that Pheo is being tourbanned under such ridiculous stuff. This man is one of the most competitive oriented players currently on Smogon, he has being improving very fast over the last year, playing a lot of major tournaments, not with outstanding results but he's not a player you can ignore.
What happened is that he was in a rush at the end of a cycle, and he decided to forfeit turn 1 all the games he couldnt win, to be able to search the maximum amount of game possible and, in his opinion, maximize his odds at a qualification. If you ask me that's a competitor mindset.
Now, after that happened, the TD team decided to tourban him, under the reason of matchfixing and letting his friend qualify or something like that. That's completely absurd and I'll show why :
1) He forfeited versus multiple players, probably not even taking care of seeing who he was paired against but just trying to see if he could win the game before the deadline or not.
2) Forfeiting early ( and by that I mean even at turn 0 ) is a common strategy at the end of ladder seasons in other games. As an example, Priest vs WarlockControl is a 80/20 or something absurd matchup in favor of Warlock in Hearthstone, and a lot of priest players adopted the strategy to forfeit even before their first draw to gain time and research a game asap.
" Participating in OLT means the games on the ladder are treated as tournament games. This includes playing out the games you start and not forfeiting turn 1. This is especially important close to the cycle deadline as even one game can be the difference between qualifying or not. Intentionally or not, Pheo' forfeiting helped two players to qualify since they didn't have to actually play their games. This isn't acceptable. All qualifying players should do so fairly without outside assistance like this.
Result: Pheo' will be tourbanned for 3 months for throwing important games. "
Here are the ban motives, let's unpack this. First, all ladder games you make under an OLT alt are considered tournament games. That's right, and it's a good thing, nothing to say about that.
Then, saying it includes not forfeiting T1 is beyond stupid. What you expect from someone during a tournament is to try to win the tournament, if you think forfeiting T1 can help you wiin the tournament I believe you should forfeit turn 1. OLT isn't like ST or Classic, time management is an integral part of the required skill, almost half of the TDs didnt play Pokemon competitively for a long time so maybe they need a reminder, but preparation is a part of the game. Preparation is the work you do before your games in order to maximise your chances at winning a tournament. Choosing a ladder team and not playing the games that rational perception of gain is negative ( you could also say negative Expected Elo Value ), is a strategy you make to win the tournament, therefore it's competitive and punishing the players who make such a choice, being for a part of or an entiere circle is actually hurting the competitive integrity of the tournament.
Then I agree that the games close to the deadlines are especially important , that's why you should let the players choose their strategy, especially during those games.
Then about qualifying fairly. When you load a team, it's because you are confident that you have positive expected value of elo with it, therefore, if your opponent forfeits turn 1 because their MU is bad, you didn't benefit assistance, you got rewarded for your strategy.
Now let's end with some question for you. Let's say I would search a game near the deadline to snipe a friend and I forfeit the game T1 because " yeah i don't wanna play this MU gg " , if I didn't signup for OLT, I'm still participating in a tournament game, should I get tourbanned for fucking with the tournament integrity ? You would have no way proving if I just load the game by accident, or just didnt want to play a losing MU vs a friendwho is playing OLT, or just if that friend isn't my friend and I'm lazy to play that MU, being friend with the person isnt even required to forfeit a game and should probably not be taken into account. What if I'mon an alt ? You're gonna altcheck me ? Nah, I think we can safely say that you can ladder how you want if you didnt signup for OLT without risking a tourban.Then, why the competitors, the people who have ALL THE REASON TO TRYHARD AND DO EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO WIN, should be punished and unable to play tournaments jsut because they use the strategy they want to use ?
For all those reasons, Pheo should be unbanned, he probably won't because competition is a word that is missing on Smogon nowadays, it's just about clout, being a clown and taking decisions about stuff you didn't experience in years, but at least, I voiced an opinion that I know a lot of players think, and now you know it too. Hopefully that makes you think, and if it doesn't, then I hope Smogon will wake up someday and we will be able to play Pokemon in peace again.
Have a good day.
What happened is that he was in a rush at the end of a cycle, and he decided to forfeit turn 1 all the games he couldnt win, to be able to search the maximum amount of game possible and, in his opinion, maximize his odds at a qualification. If you ask me that's a competitor mindset.
Now, after that happened, the TD team decided to tourban him, under the reason of matchfixing and letting his friend qualify or something like that. That's completely absurd and I'll show why :
1) He forfeited versus multiple players, probably not even taking care of seeing who he was paired against but just trying to see if he could win the game before the deadline or not.
2) Forfeiting early ( and by that I mean even at turn 0 ) is a common strategy at the end of ladder seasons in other games. As an example, Priest vs WarlockControl is a 80/20 or something absurd matchup in favor of Warlock in Hearthstone, and a lot of priest players adopted the strategy to forfeit even before their first draw to gain time and research a game asap.
" Participating in OLT means the games on the ladder are treated as tournament games. This includes playing out the games you start and not forfeiting turn 1. This is especially important close to the cycle deadline as even one game can be the difference between qualifying or not. Intentionally or not, Pheo' forfeiting helped two players to qualify since they didn't have to actually play their games. This isn't acceptable. All qualifying players should do so fairly without outside assistance like this.
Result: Pheo' will be tourbanned for 3 months for throwing important games. "
Here are the ban motives, let's unpack this. First, all ladder games you make under an OLT alt are considered tournament games. That's right, and it's a good thing, nothing to say about that.
Then, saying it includes not forfeiting T1 is beyond stupid. What you expect from someone during a tournament is to try to win the tournament, if you think forfeiting T1 can help you wiin the tournament I believe you should forfeit turn 1. OLT isn't like ST or Classic, time management is an integral part of the required skill, almost half of the TDs didnt play Pokemon competitively for a long time so maybe they need a reminder, but preparation is a part of the game. Preparation is the work you do before your games in order to maximise your chances at winning a tournament. Choosing a ladder team and not playing the games that rational perception of gain is negative ( you could also say negative Expected Elo Value ), is a strategy you make to win the tournament, therefore it's competitive and punishing the players who make such a choice, being for a part of or an entiere circle is actually hurting the competitive integrity of the tournament.
Then I agree that the games close to the deadlines are especially important , that's why you should let the players choose their strategy, especially during those games.
Then about qualifying fairly. When you load a team, it's because you are confident that you have positive expected value of elo with it, therefore, if your opponent forfeits turn 1 because their MU is bad, you didn't benefit assistance, you got rewarded for your strategy.
Now let's end with some question for you. Let's say I would search a game near the deadline to snipe a friend and I forfeit the game T1 because " yeah i don't wanna play this MU gg " , if I didn't signup for OLT, I'm still participating in a tournament game, should I get tourbanned for fucking with the tournament integrity ? You would have no way proving if I just load the game by accident, or just didnt want to play a losing MU vs a friendwho is playing OLT, or just if that friend isn't my friend and I'm lazy to play that MU, being friend with the person isnt even required to forfeit a game and should probably not be taken into account. What if I'mon an alt ? You're gonna altcheck me ? Nah, I think we can safely say that you can ladder how you want if you didnt signup for OLT without risking a tourban.Then, why the competitors, the people who have ALL THE REASON TO TRYHARD AND DO EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO WIN, should be punished and unable to play tournaments jsut because they use the strategy they want to use ?
For all those reasons, Pheo should be unbanned, he probably won't because competition is a word that is missing on Smogon nowadays, it's just about clout, being a clown and taking decisions about stuff you didn't experience in years, but at least, I voiced an opinion that I know a lot of players think, and now you know it too. Hopefully that makes you think, and if it doesn't, then I hope Smogon will wake up someday and we will be able to play Pokemon in peace again.
Have a good day.
Finding a shitload of games near the end of the cycle to try last-minute qualifying is a fine strategy. Purposely forfeiting at a crucial time because you don’t like ur matchup is pretty bullshit for the people that actually had to earn those points and what pheo did enabled that to happen. He should be happy that was 3 months, people get tourbanned a year for shit they dont even mean to happen
u should know better than most people reading this that if youre trying to clutch poffs at the end of the cycle the last thing u can afford is forfeiting games at preview. if youre in 5 games like pheo said and 1 is unwinnable u play out the other 4 and keep the 5th going for as long as u can, if u win all and hit deadline u might just make it whereas if u ff the other 1 and win the rest youre gonna lose most of the progress u wouldve made. not being able to focus on a 5th game is bs when u were already purposefully playing 5 games at once and now all u would need to do is stall the 5th player. trying to find another game? unless u get a really high player odds are u will still lose points after the preview ff and u also have to consider the fact that youre playing and putting effort into this new game that u couldve invested in switching and timer stalling vs fat. this strategy really makes no sense unless youre trying to boost and u cant blame tds for not giving him the benefit of the doubt
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