Smogon Shoddy Server Statistics - September 2009

To discuss Scizor at this point is ridiculous, the only thing we've seen so far is an increase in pokemon packing fire type moves, which was bound to happen.

As far as I recall, the problem of Garchomp being an was caused due his odd speed and bulkiness which resulted in massive sweeps unless you immediately brought in something bulky with ice beam, and even then it was a game of chance that more often than not that a yachechomp would get in 1 or 2 Sword Dances than would be able to take down whatever you switched in anyways. No pokemon could consistantly stop it without a certain amount of knowledge and even then he'd usually slink away unharmed, as the result most teams had to dedicate atleast one pokemon to stopping Garchomp.

Scizor doesn't really have that staying power, fire type moves/wow cripple any sweeping power it has and he is lacks the ability to fight any of his counters effectively, Magnezone completely shuts him down and gurantees the Choiceband variant dies, Heatran forces a switch, his only option against them is superpower which lowers attack and defense by one stage, with a fair bit of prediction a ghost type can come in and wreck havoc.

and despite the increase of him and his fire wielding counters, Roserade has climbed its way up to OU.

I think its fair to say that until Celebi usage plummets and Bulky waters start taking advantage of all the fire moves and lack of grass counters Scizor isn't going anywhere
 
good thing stage 3 was actually just modified to ensure people like you wouldn't have this silly recurring argument
If it's a silly recurring argument why was the process modified to include majority thresholds/revoting on the basis of a specious criticism?
It seems like a inherent contradiction in your position brought about by a rush to belittle my post.

thanks for your compelling opinion
It was nothing.

go write a letter to gamefreak instead of complaining here then
I'm fine with the game Gamefreak has created. Why would I complain?
Those who are always complaining about this and that is 'broken' need a job at Gamefreak.

In any case, I was being sarcastic about that.
However, it would certainly be more efficient and authoritative to implement changes from the source rather than by votes to ban this item or that Pokemon or this move of that colour shoes.
'House rules' in general don't bother me but it's a little silly to argue, for example, about replicating weather glitches when so many unquestionably genuine aspects of the game are verboten.

nobody who has any say in the process axes anything without following the only process we've tried to put in place. not that this would please someone who is inherently indifferent on whether latias in ou—perhaps the most tangible symbol that our community is willing to undo bans after given a way to fairly reevaluate pre-existing ones—is a good or bad thing. go post your pessimism in some other forum
This paragraph is basically a long injunction against a response so I will not respond to it.
Besides, I have said all I wanted to say
 
Thanks for the stats Doug, im a real junkie for this kind of thing. too bad miltank doesnt get used much. albeit its pretty much a weaker version of blissey but still
 
If you just don't trust Smogon's ability to produce rational voters for banning and unbanning Pokémon, well, no one can convince you otherwise. You've seen the process and clearly only people who've had extensive experience with suspects are allowed in. However, the fact that you're dismissing the system so quickly, as if we're all children who cry "WAA WAA BAN THIS BAN THAT", is just insulting.

There's disagreeing with Garchomp being Uber and then there's forcing your beliefs on others. You can always say "DEAL WITH IT" but in fact Garchomp may truly be broken (and about half the voters apparently thought it was). There are actually broken elements in many competitive games. Street Fighter II's Akuma is a basic example.

Lots of people would be able to handle different sets of Ubers, but that's not what this is all about. I doubt a single Uber could sweep every OU team. Should we free Rayquaza or Kyogre because a few people have met just the right narrow conditions to handle it? That would be stupid. Good thing the "significant portion of teams" phrase is attached to the Uber definition.

No one's ever going to have a perfect system for objectively and exactly determining the competitive value of anything. People are getting angry at you because you've given this rather insulting and exaggerated criticism and you haven't proposed any meaningful solution, probably because you don't have any solution.

You seem not to like the democratic process... Do you have a better idea? Here, you have a carefully selected pool of people who have all used the suspect(s) extensively and (in most tests) can substantiate why they think what they think about a pokémon. Do we just decide that someone's smarter than the rest and go by his decision?

Maybe you are smarter than the rest of us. You clearly seem to think so, the way your argument's going ("denuding OU of good Pokemon"). Oh, but when we unban a pokémon, that doesn't count because you think that might be more messed up.
 
I've been talking about Scizor but no...really if Scizor got banned it would be ridiculous. He's not necessary at all to have a good solid team and he's not difficult to play against either. You can base a team around Scizor or you can stick Scizor in so he's not centralizing either.
 
If you just don't trust Smogon's ability to produce rational voters for banning and unbanning Pokémon, well, no one can convince you otherwise. You've seen the process and clearly only people who've had extensive experience with suspects are allowed in. However, the fact that you're dismissing the system so quickly, as if we're all children who cry "WAA WAA BAN THIS BAN THAT", is just insulting.
Actually, it's not perfect, but it's as good as you can get under the circumstances.

There have been a few mistakes *coughnoobsbanningShaymin-Scough*, but for the most part it's succeeded fairly well.
 
Scizor is very useful and easy to fit on most teams. That's why it has high usage, it isn't because its overpowered. You see, quite a lot of Pokemon counter Scizor nicely. OK, rolecall, Rotom-A, Zapdos, Gyarados, Heatran, Magnezone, you see? Scizor can be countered. Thinking that something that is used alot automatically means it's Uber is very naive.
I agree and I am fed up of people who think scizor is uber just because it's on about 31% of teams, he is esily counterd by many pokemon even set up bait for the likes of gyarados and subran (oviously setting up a sub on the switch) magnezone gaps hold of him then has SI with him with hp fire.
 
I make use smogon's exceptional information resources frequently when designing my own teams for wifi etc.
However, the culture of complaint about successful Pokemon or 'hax' and the tendency to follow that up with restriction turns me off.

The mention of Scizor in this thread brought my feelings to mind and why my participation in shoddy is currently nil.
I don't think I'm forcing my view on anybody by stating this, especially since my statements have no legislative force unlike decisions to ban Pokemon, items and moves.

I do respect each person's right to play whatever dialect of Pokemon s/he wants with people of like but I think it's fair and acceptable for me to say that this has evolved beyond my tolerance.
There are no hard feelings just a realisation that I do not see eye to eye wih this community on certain game changing rules despite my respect for its other body of work.
In any case, I've exhausted the point so I leave this thread now.

Adiós.
 
Well, in that case, I think all that needs to be said is that there's a difference between public outcry and deliberation among actually qualified voters. Talking about them like they're the same is a big mistake.
 
Ubers Leads said:
| 10 | Forretress | 597 |
I find it surprising that Forry usage as a lead persists even when the only leads you unequivocally win against are Deoxys-E (barring a Dual Screener) and Mew (the strategy being to use Payback until the health gets low and spam Rapid Spin, which is possible due to the high PP). More Groudons are bringing Flamethrower to give you a nasty surprise, and I would rather not lose something as integral as Forry to a Dark Void from Darkrai.

But then again, I use Forry as a lead on a stall team with Ho-oh, and with the phoenix covering Deoxys-A and checking Darkrai and Blissey checking Kyogre and Mewtwo, it works well enough. Forry almost guarantees that there won't be residual damage on your side of the field, which can be huge.

Deciding between Forry and Groudon is quite similar to the decision to lead with Forry or Hippo/Pert for a stall team in Standard. Using Forry is like playing a more aggresive Sicilian Defense, while playing Hippowdon is akin to using a more conservative French Defense.
 
Being a perfect fit on so many teams is what makes Scizor a candidate for Ubers -- not its sweeping abilities.
Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep
.
Scizor fits this because it can so easily give the Scizor user a free turn and some damage. U-turn not only does some damage to the opponent, but also keeps the momentum of the match, the free turn, in the Scizor user's favor by giving the Scizor user a free switch to respond to what its opponent does. This makes Scizor the best Pokemon in OU for holding the momentum and getting free turns to set up sweepers.

But how is Scizor different from any other U-turn user? The difference is in switch-forcing and the magnitude of the U-turn damage. Scizor's high Attack and its typing make it so there are many Pokemon that are OHKOed or severely damaged by Scizor's moves, so it can make the opponent switch more that any other U-turn user in the game could. The second difference is that Scizor's U-turn is hugely powerful when backed up with STAB and a Choice Band, so not only does one force a switch with Scizor and get a free turn, but one also considerably weakens the opponent's Pokemon. Stealth Rock is probably in play to do even more damage. Weakening ones opponents beforehand is necessary for most sweeps, and Scizor does that very well.

But Scizor's team support does not stop at U-turn. Many sweepers are revenge-killed or countered by Latias or Rotom-h, so someone building a team with a Pokemon such as Gyarados or Salamence would want Pursuit support. Scizor is perfect for the job because it gets a powerful Choice Band Pursuit that hits for increased power even if the opponent stays in. Scizor's typing makes it easy for it to switch into Choiced Dragon, Ice, etc. type moves and Pursuit the opponent, allowing for an easier sweep later on.

Scizor also shines in team support with its revenge-killing. Scizor's Bullet Punch is the most powerful priority on any OU Pokemon, which lets it revenge-kill most OU sweepers that do not resist Steel. A successful revenge-kill is the most powerful type of team support because if you cannot revenge-kill the opponent's sweeper, your opponent sweeps your team and you lose the match. Most sweepers cannot be countered all the time, so every team but the stalliest of stall teams needs something that can revenge-kill. Scizor, which fits this role, has a spot on so many teams in part because it can make this ultimate team-supporting move.

High-powered STAB U-turn, powerful Pursuit, and excellent revenge-killing abilities make Scizor Uber by the Support Characteristic because it can help its team in so many ways and make it considerably easier for the Scizor-user's team to sweep.
 
I find it surprising that Forry usage as a lead persists even when the only leads you unequivocally win against are Deoxys-E (barring a Dual Screener) and Mew (the strategy being to use Payback until the health gets low and spam Rapid Spin, which is possible due to the high PP). More Groudons are bringing Flamethrower to give you a nasty surprise, and I would rather not lose something as integral as Forry to a Dark Void from Darkrai.

But then again, I use Forry as a lead on a stall team with Ho-oh, and with the phoenix covering Deoxys-A and checking Darkrai and Blissey checking Kyogre and Mewtwo, it works well enough. Forry almost guarantees that there won't be residual damage on your side of the field, which can be huge.

Deciding between Forry and Groudon is quite similar to the decision to lead with Forry or Hippo/Pert for a stall team in Standard. Using Forry is like playing a more aggresive Sicilian Defense, while playing Hippowdon is akin to using a more conservative French Defense.
To add on to this, I'd like to point out that Forretress doesn't always "beat" Mew because if the Mew player can get Stealth Rock up on a Payback turn, he can Explode the next turn, making Rapid Spin not work AND putting Forretress at about half health AND giving a free switch-in to one of Mew's teammates. I agree with you about Forretress vs. Groudon in Ubers being similar to Forretress vs. Swampert/Hippowdon in Standard, but I'd have to say that Groudon fares much better in Ubers while Forretress fares much better in Standard. The goal of leading with Forretress is (usually) to get Toxic Spikes up early while keeping Stealth Rock off your side of the field, and it simply can't do both against any of the common Uber leads. On the other hand, leading with Forretress in Standard nets you the early advantage against Metagross, Jirachi, Swampert, Hippowdon, Bronzong, etc. and there is always the option of going to something else like Swampert against Azelf, Heatran, Infernape and pals.

tl;dr: if I played stall (which I don't really, but whatever), I would certainly prefer Groudon > Forretress in Ubers and Forretress > Swampert in Standard. I believe that Jibaku's "Rising from the Storms" used the former combination while Panamaxis and Jlei2k's "Thriller" used the latter, and they're both good examples of stall, so yeah.
 

Mr.E

unban me from Discord
is a Two-Time Past SPL Champion
User deluge is wise beyond his join date but I didn't have any other reason to post last night.

Not that Scizor is even close to uber or anything but for the baddies who think it is, I'll give you a hint: Focus on Bullet Punch hurting really bad for a priority move. It's not like Scizor didn't have a strong STAB U-Turn since the beginning of D/P or anything, the Platinum acquisition of Bullet Punch is the sole reason for its insane climb in usage because it's retarded good.

I know nothing about the Ubers metagame but Mew should carry a Fire attack if Forretress is a problem, no?

BLAGH BLAGH BLAGH GARCHOMP SCIZOR UBER CHARACTERISTICS AND SHIT

As far as I recall, the problem of Garchomp being an was caused due his odd speed and bulkiness which resulted in massive sweeps unless you immediately brought in something bulky with ice beam, and even then it was a game of chance that more often than not that a yachechomp would get in 1 or 2 Sword Dances than would be able to take down whatever you switched in anyways. No pokemon could consistantly stop it without a certain amount of knowledge and even then he'd usually slink away unharmed, as the result most teams had to dedicate atleast one pokemon to stopping Garchomp.
Quoted because this is more specifically what I want to address but it branches out to the more general, you dig?

Garchomp does not "slink away unharmed." It's almost never switched out once it gets that Swords Dance in. Yeah, it usually kills the switch-in but it takes that Yache-blunted Ice Beam first or gets worn down by that generic defensive pokémon that never switched out at all. This is exactly where the uber characteristic falls apart when describing Garchomp. It's difficult to sweep a "significant" portion of the opponent's team when you're at 30% health after the first kill, has no Speed buff or priority move of its own, and lack resistance to any notable OU priority move. (Ice Shard, Extremespeed, Bullet Punch.) Sand Veil is a complicating factor in Garchomp's favor but, at only 20% and Sand Stream not even being active in every other OU battles, its significance is overblown.

If you just don't trust Smogon's ability to produce rational voters for banning and unbanning Pokémon, well, no one can convince you otherwise. You've seen the process and clearly only people who've had extensive experience with suspects are allowed in. However, the fact that you're dismissing the system so quickly, as if we're all children who cry "WAA WAA BAN THIS BAN THAT", is just insulting.
I'll admit I don't have much in the way of better alternatives either but I think we could at least do with the return of having to write a paragraph to back up an opinion. Obviously one can't make a fair judgement if they don't have the experience but simply playing a lot also doesn't automatically make one more intelligible (more like intelligarchomp amirite :naughty:).
 
I know nothing about the Ubers metagame but Mew should carry a Fire attack if Forretress is a problem, no?
Well, its a rough analogy, but let me put this into OU terms: would you put Grass Knot on your LeadApe if Swampert was a problem? If you use GK, suddenly you open yourself up to threats such as Shucatran if you go FB/GK and Metagross if you go CC/GK, not to mention eliminating any possibility of late-game wallbreaking, since either Blissey or Skarmory will wall you completely. It's the same case in Ubers. Fire moves are useful for nothing except Scizor and Forretress. Granted, Scizor is 7th in usage, and Forretress is ahead of Garchomp now, but using a move with such limited coverage when your Pokemon are strapped for moveslots isn't fun.
 

Pirika

O boxeador revolucionário
is an Artist Alumnus
Being a perfect fit on so many teams is what makes Scizor a candidate for Ubers -- not its sweeping abilities. Scizor fits this because it can so easily give the Scizor user a free turn and some damage. U-turn not only does some damage to the opponent, but also keeps the momentum of the match, the free turn, in the Scizor user's favor by giving the Scizor user a free switch to respond to what its opponent does. This makes Scizor the best Pokemon in OU for holding the momentum and getting free turns to set up sweepers.

But how is Scizor different from any other U-turn user? The difference is in switch-forcing and the magnitude of the U-turn damage. Scizor's high Attack and its typing make it so there are many Pokemon that are OHKOed or severely damaged by Scizor's moves, so it can make the opponent switch more that any other U-turn user in the game could. The second difference is that Scizor's U-turn is hugely powerful when backed up with STAB and a Choice Band, so not only does one force a switch with Scizor and get a free turn, but one also considerably weakens the opponent's Pokemon. Stealth Rock is probably in play to do even more damage. Weakening ones opponents beforehand is necessary for most sweeps, and Scizor does that very well.

But Scizor's team support does not stop at U-turn. Many sweepers are revenge-killed or countered by Latias or Rotom-h, so someone building a team with a Pokemon such as Gyarados or Salamence would want Pursuit support. Scizor is perfect for the job because it gets a powerful Choice Band Pursuit that hits for increased power even if the opponent stays in. Scizor's typing makes it easy for it to switch into Choiced Dragon, Ice, etc. type moves and Pursuit the opponent, allowing for an easier sweep later on.

Scizor also shines in team support with its revenge-killing. Scizor's Bullet Punch is the most powerful priority on any OU Pokemon, which lets it revenge-kill most OU sweepers that do not resist Steel. A successful revenge-kill is the most powerful type of team support because if you cannot revenge-kill the opponent's sweeper, your opponent sweeps your team and you lose the match. Most sweepers cannot be countered all the time, so every team but the stalliest of stall teams needs something that can revenge-kill. Scizor, which fits this role, has a spot on so many teams in part because it can make this ultimate team-supporting move.

High-powered STAB U-turn, powerful Pursuit, and excellent revenge-killing abilities make Scizor Uber by the Support Characteristic because it can help its team in so many ways and make it considerably easier for the Scizor-user's team to sweep.
Tyranitar is a much better Pursuit user than Scizor. Scizor cannot pursuit Rotom-h unless it's locked in Shadow Ball. Latias can 2HKO Scizor with Surf and Thunderbolt or can simply OHKO with HP Fire.
Also, a lot of sweepers can take CB Bullet Punch (Gyarados, Empoleon, Infernape, Heatran, Starmie, Lucario, Kingdra and even DD Tyranitar with Babiri Berry). CB Bullet Punch is also set up fodder for all those Pokemons.

Scizor's support characteristic is not half good as Wobbofet's.
 
| 13 | Swampert | 99999 | 12.97 |

Swampy was soooooo close, also Sneasel is flyin' up there in UU leads. Jumped up 26 spots and alsmost doubled its usage.
 
I cannot believe Tyranitar and Crobat are that far up on leads!
I have hardly seen any!
and I would have sworn Darkrai was most used lead for Ubers too xD
 
Tyranitar is a much better Pursuit user than Scizor. Scizor cannot pursuit Rotom-h unless it's locked in Shadow Ball. Latias can 2HKO Scizor with Surf and Thunderbolt or can simply OHKO with HP Fire.
Also, a lot of sweepers can take CB Bullet Punch (Gyarados, Empoleon, Infernape, Heatran, Starmie, Lucario, Kingdra and even DD Tyranitar with Babiri Berry). CB Bullet Punch is also set up fodder for all those Pokemons.

Scizor's support characteristic is not half good as Wobbofet's.
Pursuit is secondary to U-turn as a team-support move on Scizor, as U-turn is much stronger and lets the user keep the momentum in a way which Pursuit doesn't. And a Specially bulky Scizor can survive two Surfs or Thunderbolts from Latias, and most Latias don't run HP Fire because it is so specialized for Scizor and drops Latias's Speed by one.

Bullet Punch is not resisted by most sweepers in OU and can do large amounts of damage to even Pokemon that resist it, 2HKOing Jolteon and 3HKOing Starmie. Those you mentioned are only a handful of the sweepers in OU, and can generally be revenge-killed by Scarfed Dragons. That revenge-killing combination is another way Scizor shows itself as being a great choice for many teams, because it can cover so many Pokemon when in an offensive combination. Combination-wise Scizor really does go with everything on an offensive team.
 

VKCA

(Virtual Circus Kareoky Act)
august
| Heatran | 1. Celebi | 20452 | 12.71 | 13 | 7.60 | 25 | +12 |
| Heatran | 2. Rotom-c | 7485 | 4.65 | 34 | 3.63 | 46 | +12 |
| Heatran | 3. Flygon | 16314 | 10.14 | 15 | 7.41 | 26 | +11 |
| Heatran | 4. Hippowdon | 8347 | 5.19 | 31 | 4.56 | 42 | +11 |
| Heatran | 5. Rotom-w | 4882 | 3.03 | 41 | 2.41 | 49 | +8 |
| Heatran | 6. Suicune | 13724 | 8.53 | 20 | 7.01 | 27 | +7 |
| Heatran | 7. Roserade | 7098 | 4.41 | 36 | 4.01 | 43 | +7 |
| Heatran | 8. Cresselia | 6431 | 4.00 | 37 | 3.78 | 44 | +7 |
| Heatran | 9. Mamoswine | 8597 | 5.34 | 29 | 5.18 | 35 | +6
| Heatran | 10. Rotom-h | 21615 | 13.43 | 10 | 10.75 | 15 | +5 |

september
Heatran | 1. Roserade | 8686 | 5.68 | 26 | 4.58 | 39 | +13 |
| Heatran | 2. Celebi | 19043 | 12.45 | 12 | 7.18 | 24 | +12 |
| Heatran | 3. Rotom-c | 6599 | 4.31 | 34 | 3.53 | 45 | +11 |
| Heatran | 4. Rotom-w | 5621 | 3.67 | 39 | 2.35 | 50 | +11 |

So roserade beat out celebi for heatran teammates and jumped 7 spots.. hmm
 
august
| Heatran | 1. Celebi | 20452 | 12.71 | 13 | 7.60 | 25 | +12 |
| Heatran | 2. Rotom-c | 7485 | 4.65 | 34 | 3.63 | 46 | +12 |
| Heatran | 3. Flygon | 16314 | 10.14 | 15 | 7.41 | 26 | +11 |
| Heatran | 4. Hippowdon | 8347 | 5.19 | 31 | 4.56 | 42 | +11 |
| Heatran | 5. Rotom-w | 4882 | 3.03 | 41 | 2.41 | 49 | +8 |
| Heatran | 6. Suicune | 13724 | 8.53 | 20 | 7.01 | 27 | +7 |
| Heatran | 7. Roserade | 7098 | 4.41 | 36 | 4.01 | 43 | +7 |
| Heatran | 8. Cresselia | 6431 | 4.00 | 37 | 3.78 | 44 | +7 |
| Heatran | 9. Mamoswine | 8597 | 5.34 | 29 | 5.18 | 35 | +6
| Heatran | 10. Rotom-h | 21615 | 13.43 | 10 | 10.75 | 15 | +5 |

september
Heatran | 1. Roserade | 8686 | 5.68 | 26 | 4.58 | 39 | +13 |
| Heatran | 2. Celebi | 19043 | 12.45 | 12 | 7.18 | 24 | +12 |
| Heatran | 3. Rotom-c | 6599 | 4.31 | 34 | 3.53 | 45 | +11 |
| Heatran | 4. Rotom-w | 5621 | 3.67 | 39 | 2.35 | 50 | +11 |

So roserade beat out celebi for heatran teammates and jumped 7 spots.. hmm
Woot!
I use that combo, and it's amazing!
 

Pirika

O boxeador revolucionário
is an Artist Alumnus
Pursuit is secondary to U-turn as a team-support move on Scizor, as U-turn is much stronger and lets the user keep the momentum in a way which Pursuit doesn't. And a Specially bulky Scizor can survive two Surfs or Thunderbolts from Latias, and most Latias don't run HP Fire because it is so specialized for Scizor and drops Latias's Speed by one.

Bullet Punch is not resisted by most sweepers in OU and can do large amounts of damage to even Pokemon that resist it, 2HKOing Jolteon and 3HKOing Starmie. Those you mentioned are only a handful of the sweepers in OU, and can generally be revenge-killed by Scarfed Dragons. That revenge-killing combination is another way Scizor shows itself as being a great choice for many teams, because it can cover so many Pokemon when in an offensive combination. Combination-wise Scizor really does go with everything on an offensive team.
SpecJolt OHKO Scizor after SR damage. Starmie 2HKO Scizor. BulkyGyara, SD Lucario, AgiliGross, NP Ape with Vacumm Wave, Rain Dance Kingdra, all of them cannot be revenge-killed by Scizor and Scarfed Dragons.

Edit: weeee, 400th post
 
The ladder must be full of Team of Torment copiers.
Very true. But it's also true that people are just throwing Tormentran onto a team for the cool factor without investing in a Skarmory or Forretress to give it the support it needs. And as a result, they're disappointed when Tormentran utterly fails to do anything besides cause trouble for the opposing team. Something like Scarftran or Subtran has almost universal utility, but it takes a certain type of team to use Tormentran.

EDIT: Just for fun, we should have a movement to discourage Cresselia use in OU. Seeing it in UU would be a real blast, if only for a week until it was obvious that it was incredibly broken there. But I think that if Heracross falls down, Cresselia will fall soon after.
 

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