Resource SM ZU Viability Rankings (VR Changes #375)

Golem A+ -> S
Golem isn't as versatile as shiftry or swanna, but it has three very good sets and is easily one of the best stealth rock users, be it as a suicide lead or physical tank. With a choice band Golem is strong enough to break most physical walls; gourg is a 2hko after a bit of chip, dusclops is a 3hko which is good enough since it has to rely on rest, Bronzor dies to fire punch, and Pyukumuku is a 2hko. This leaves Gourgeist-Large, Vibrava, and Slowpoke as the only reliable answers. Band Golem also has better defensive capabilities than most other breakers making it easier to find free turns.

A -> A+
I'd go so far as to say Combusken is one of the most meta-defining pokemon and every team should have a dedicated check to both its sets. Even then, it can bypass swanna and physically defensive mareanie with hp electric, altaria with hp ice, muk and mime with its physical set and pyukumuku with the special set. Obviously there are downsides like its fraility, reliance on protect to gain speed, inability to outspeed common scarfers at +2, and most notably its blind as hell, but all things considered it's easily worthy of A+.

Dusclops B -> B+
While Dusclops is super passive and primarily sees use on stall, it walls a large portion of the meta and I think it deserves to be with its stall comrades licki and pyuku in B+. So much of ZU is vulnerable to toxic and most things that aren’t (bronz mareanie komala) have low hp stats making them susceptible to seismic toss. It blocks rapid spin from every spinner, which gourg and others fail to do, and pressure is an invaluable ability for stall teams to quickly diminish the pp of moves like stealth rock, defog, and leaf storm.

Servine B -> B+
Servine poses a threat to offensive and bulky teams alike thanks to great defenses alongside synthesis and the ability to boost its special attack with its powerful stab move. A grass typing gives it a bunch of great resistances letting it check things like Golem, Electivire, Floatzel, Marowak and Huntail and heal while it threatens to do heavy damage back. Servine can further invalidate golem by defogging on it, or it can drop defog to break stall teams more reliably.

Vibrava C -> C+
Vibrava is easily the best answer to the ubiquitous Golem, and also excels at defogging on every rocker that isn't Bronzor. It's also immune to toxic spikes and able to threaten Mareanie, but it doesn't do much otherwise. I think this is enough to make it worthy of C+.

Natu C -> C+
Natu hard counters a lot of passive mons and most notably prevents and punishes the opponent for every setting up hazards with common pokemon like Bronzor, Mawile, Mareanie, Monferno, Shuckle, Smeargle, and Quilladin. Night shade does very good damage to toxic immune pokemon like Bronzor, Mareanie, and rest Duscops. It requires support from something that defogs or spins on Golem and other rock types, like Vibrava or Avalugg, and easily gives up momentum to Electivire, Komala, and other wallbreakers, so it's most viable on stall teams and for this reason I decided to run protect to scout these commonly choiced pokemon.

Slowpoke UR -> C
Slowpoke is a really cool mon that, I argue, has a niche now that Tangela has risen. It’s one of the bulkiest physical walls in the tier, it doesn’t give up as much momentum thanks to regenerator, and, unlike gourg, it doesn’t lose to mixed wallbreakers like rampardos and mawile. Thanks to its typing, it can also counter some strong special attackers like Combusken and specs Floatzel (although trick will cripple it). That being said, Slowpoke faces stiff competition to Mareanie and Gourgeist, and is vulnerable to knock off and common offensive threats like Electivire, Shiftry, Komala and special Swanna, as well as being set-up bait for sub Bouff.
Slowpoke @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic / Yawn / Thunder Wave / Calm Mind
- Psywave / Scald
- Fire Blast / Reflect / Protect / Psyshock
- Slack Off

Slowpoke's deep gen one movepool gives it a lot of different options: psywave deals consistant damage, fire blast hits dark types and other common switch-ins, reflect gives it more breathing room vs set-up sweepers, yawn + protect can force switches, thunder wave helps support slower teammates, and calm mind lets it set-up.

+2 252 Atk Swanna Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 187-222 (48.6 - 57.8%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO
spamming slack off will kill swanna to recoil and you wont die unless consecutive crits

252 Atk Electivire Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 180-212 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
4 SpA Electivire Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Slowpoke: 194-230 (50.5 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
electivire cant force you out, as you can slack off to scout their move

252+ Atk Choice Band Golem Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 160-189 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
this one is very close, its an 82% chance to kill after rocks, but in any case, you can use slowpoke to scout what move they locked into

252 SpA Life Orb Combusken Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Slowpoke: 127-151 (33.1 - 39.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Combusken Hidden Power Electric vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Slowpoke: 174-205 (45.3 - 53.3%) -- 34% chance to 2HKO
hp electric is pretty close to a 2hko, so 40 spdef to avoid that is something to consider

252 SpA Choice Specs Floatzel Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Slowpoke: 135-160 (35.1 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Muk Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 175-207 (45.5 - 53.9%) -- 43.8% chance to 2HKO
another case where scouting is important

252 Atk Rapidash Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 104-124 (27 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Granbull Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 144-171 (37.5 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+6 252+ Atk Beartic Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 360-423 (93.7 - 110.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
reflect Slowpoke should beat Beartic, as long as it’s not taunt

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 130-153 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Rampardos Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 156-185 (40.6 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Slowpoke Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Shiftry: 132-156 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Slowpoke Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 106-126 (45.8 - 54.5%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Slowpoke Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 180-216 (56 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Slowpoke Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Exeggutor: 100-118 (30.2 - 35.6%) -- 26.7% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Slowpoke Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Beartic: 94-112 (28.3 - 33.8%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO

Some notable physical attackers Slowpoke loses to are Shiftry, Electivire, Komala, Pinsir, Bouffalant, Abomasnow, Crustle, Kecleon, Pawniard, Toucannon, and Marowak so things like Avalugg, Mawile, Silvally-Fighting, and Monferno make good partners, and they also support Slowpoke by setting up or clearing stealth rocks. Furthermore, Slowpoke needs something to wall special attackers, so Komala, Lickilicky, and Kecleon are all good teammates.

Here's a couple good replays of me using Slowpoke in tour games (unfortunately I only have two)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-915797648 vs funbot
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-919289381 vs uhu

Pinsir A+ -> A
While Pinsir's a great scarfer and sweeper with z-me first, its hindered by its poor defensive typing, which limits its ability to come and go when rocks are up. It also faces competition from Crustle which has more power, slightly better natural bulk, and a neat normal resistance.

Altaria A- -> B+
I've found Altaria to be extremely disappointing. As a defogger, it loses to the two prominent stealth rock users and it's plagued by a weakness to rock and ice. That being said, it does have some things going for it stat-wise and with natural cure + roost and a typing that allows it to take on combusken. The only case I could see myself using Altaria is with a bulky dragon dance set or alongside magnet pull.

Machoke A- -> B+
Machoke is a great tank with offensive capabilities few other defensive mons can rival. My biggest problem with Machoke is that it can't reliably check Shiftry, as a knock off followed by two consecutive leaf storms is enough to kill max spdef Machoke. It doesn't quite have the defenses to take on wallbreakers from either side of the spectrum, and it faces competition from Monferno and Silvally-Fighting who can set or remove rocks while pivoting.

Simisear A- -> B+
Nasty Plot gives Simisear something that Combusken and Rapidash don't have, but it has a hard time setting up with its bad defensive typing and stats. Combusken can sweep teams with or without set up; its secondary fighting typing gives it another powerful stab and a neutrality to rocks, while Rapidash is a great check to Shiftry, Pawniard, and Kecleon because of flame body + morning sun and it can cripple Golem and other prospective checks with will-o-wisp.

Gabite B -> B-/C+
Ive never been a fan of this thing and I don’t see hardly any reason to use it over Golem, who can actually switch into electivire. Not only is it a lot more passive than Golem, but it doesn’t get lefties recovery which leads to it dying very quickly. I know it rough skin is nice, but even Hippo does a better job setting rocks thanks to reliable recovery. If I'm missing something here please tell me, but I think this mon is just terrible.

C rank and lower feels like splitting hairs but heres some noms to think about

Leavanny C+ -> C-
I don't see what this has as a web setter over Shuckle and Smeargle.

Ampharos C- -> UU
Ampharos has decent all-around stats and access to some cool moves like focus blast and heal bell, but I'd always want to use a different electric type.

Politoed C -> UU
This thing gets whirlpool + perish song, but it's very inconsistent, because things can volt switch/uturn on it or just threaten to kill it and ghosts are immune to trapping.

Gothitelle UU -> UR
Gothitelle is outclassed by Meowstic-F as a competitive user that doesn’t lose to Silvally-Fighting like pawniard and purugly do. As for other sets, I don’t know what it would try to run that other psychics like kadabra, mr mime, and grumpig couldn't do better.

Gourgeist UU -> UR
The only relevant Gourg forms are super, large and small.

Gumshoos UU -> UR
I know all the things here are pretty bad, but this is just outclassed by other normal types like Komala or Bouffalant, although I will concede this thing can drop some fat u-turns, 252+ Atk Choice Band Stakeout Gumshoos U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 140-165 (37.4 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO.

Lopunny UU -> UR
The best case scenario is you cripple something with switcheroo and healing wish later, but its bad bulk makes it hard to accomplish.

Lumineon UU -> UR
A Silvally-Water with worse stats and no thunderbolt, maybe it can run lefties toxic protect or give you the option of running a different silvally, but really it's horrible.

Hippopotas UR -> UU
Hippo is pretty bulky and has a good movepool. Its stats aren't quite where they need to be for it to be a good wall as its 2hkod by band Golem after rocks and Komala after it loses its eviolite.

Zweilous UR -> UU
It's defensive set is quite nice on stall teams where it takes on troublesome pokemon such as Shiftry, Beheyeem and Camerupt. Offensively it is impossible to reliably counter, with Mawile being the best answer to it. However its disappointing bulk and speed hold it back, and it's deadweight versus offense.

Klang UR -> UU
Klang is quite bulky with defenses better than even Bronzor, although it's susceptible to super effective attacks that are far from uncommon. In any case it's quite dangerous with shift gear and gear grind to any teams lacking Gourgeist, Mareanie or Pyukumuku.

Pikachu UR -> UU
Light ball boosts Pikachu's attack to an amount equivocal to Slaking's base 160 attack and it has a really good speed tier and priority move for its strength. Unfortunately the combination of fake out and extremespeed is illegal and Pikachu struggles to break Gourgeist-Super, something which Electivire beats with flamethrower. Also Pikachu is incredibly frail and takes heavy recoil from its stab attack.

Luxray UR -> UU
Luxray is outshined by Electivire in a lot of ways, but it has two good abilities and good stats so I don't see why it should be tossed out completely. I think it can make a decent pivot and status absorber with guts and assault vest to take on Swanna, Toucannon, and Rotom-Fan. Wild Charge and Superpower from a base 120 attack are quite decent and it can run hp water to 2hko defensive Golem even with an Adamant nature.

Trubbish UR -> UU
Of all the potential spikers in ZU, I think Trubbish is the most promising. Sticky Hold in conjunction with eviolite is pretty cool and it has enough special bulk when invested to take on things like Combusken and z-move Swanna, while it can stay healthy with rest + sleep talk.

Whirlipede UR -> UU
I dont think Whirlipede doesn't have the same defensive utility as Trubbish, but it has some cool options like endeavor to use alongside speedboost.

Eevee UR -> UU
Eevee only really fits on screens teams and even then it's outclassed. That being said, it can easily sweep unprepared teams as it's not at all easy to revenge at +2 defenses behind screens.

Carvanha UR -> UU
This thing has slightly better speed and attack than Combusken and a diverse movepool with options like taunt and destiny bond so that's something. It's held back by its horrible defenses though.

Lampent UR -> UU
Lampent's three immunities hardwall Combusken, Simisear, and z-encore Chatot, and it has good stabs backed by a decent special attack.
 
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Tuthur

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A -> A+, Strongly Agree. Combusken is very tough to revenge kill, a lot of teams only relies on Swanna to check this and it's not a reliable check, same for Altaria. Except Mareanie, nothing is safe to switch into Busken since Special and Physicals sets have completely different checks and counters.
Busken breaking through defensive Altaria and Swanna: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-920337237, https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-895661732

A+ ->A/A-, Strongly Agree. Once was the last time you got swept by Pinsir? Bug STAB is really bad and Pinsir has a big 4mss with Knock Off for Ghost, Eq for Poison, Stone Edge for Flying, Swords Dance for walls, Z-Me First for offense. The rising popularity of both Machoke and Hakamo-o hurts a lot Pinsir since it can't break through them.

A->A+, Agree. Nothing much to add to what Union said. T-Spikes are very valuable with the lack of grounded poison outside of Mareanie itself, Muk, and the rare Arbok and Poisonvally.

A+ -> S, Disagree. Golem might be the best rocker in the tier and the best Electric-immunity, but Golem struggles against to many things once its sturdy is broken (which isn't the hardest thing to do btw. Every team has several Pokemon that can handle Golem since you only need to have a Grass, Water, Ice or Ground faster physical attacker not to be weak to Golem. It's really easy to take advantage of Golem by U-Turning with Komala or doubling with Vire into your Swanna, Shiftry or whatever else that beats golem.

C -> C+, Agree. Vibrava is imo the best defogger you can dream to have. Not only does it beat every hazard setters that is not Bronzor, but it's a very potent pivot thanks to U-turn and check to Fire-types such as Rapidash and Monferno.

A- -> somewhere in B, Strongly Agree. Altaria sucks. It's super passive, but like more passive than Dusclops, Mareanie or Bronzor which moves can deal heavy damages or burn. Altaria is a Defoger that loses to every hazard setter not nammed Sandslash or Camel (even Quill beats it with Taunt/Super Fang). Due to its super passive nature it lets every breaker come for free (Toucannon, Rampardos, Komala, just to name a few). It doesn't check anything relevant outside of Special non-HP Ice Busken. It's ability to absorb status isn't as useful as it used to be with the incredible splashibility of Komala and to an extent Bronzor and Mareanie popularity. Even stall teams where it should perfectly feats don't run it anymore and prefer Natu, Avalugg or Vibrava as their hazard control options.

B->B+, Agree. Dusclops is very valuable for stall teams and fat balance for its ability to counter NP Chatot and Toxic Bouffalant as well as being a blanket check to a lot of special attackers such as Special Busken, Simis, Swanna, Floatzel. It's also a valuable status absorber thanks to Rest and it can easily take advantage of most passive mon thanks to the combination of Pressure, Rest, Toxic and Seismic Toss.
Union vs Diag at BtW, Dusclops handles Wishiwashi, Camel and Gourg: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-920342510

B->B-, Disagree. Simisage has several things over Servine and Shiftry. First it's Speed, Simisage is able to outspeed Swanna and Sivallies which lets it throw powerful Leaf Storm. Second, unlike Servine it has immediate power and hits harder after a Nasty Plot. Outside of Muk and Bronzor there aren't much that can switch into a Specs Leaf Storm from Simisage or take a +2 Bloom Doom.

B- -> C, Disagree. After testing a bit Drifblim I realized that it is criminally underrated. With both Calm Mind and Unburden Driblim can threaten both offensive teams and defensives. Most Lickilicky and Dusclops can't touch Driblim behind a Sub and are set up fodder for it which makes it a huge threats to stall teams.
Drifblim @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Substitute
- Calm Mind / Destiny Bond

UR -> ranked, Agree. I have also used this little things for a bit but with Zap Cannon over Fire Blast to deal with Swannas and other water-types, and it has been rather successful. I don't have much to add to what Sketchy already said, but I have some more replaies:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-895504879
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-895506299

Hippopotas UR -> UU
Hippo is pretty bulky and has a good movepool. Its stats aren't quite where they need to be for it to be a good wall as its 2hkod by band Golem after rocks and Komala after it loses its eviolite.

Zweilous UR -> UU
It's defensive set is quite nice on stall teams where it takes on troublesome pokemon such as Shiftry, Beheyeem and Camerupt. Offensively it is impossible to reliably counter, with Mawile being the best answer to it. However its disappointing bulk and speed hold it back, and it's deadweight versus offense.

Klang UR -> UU
Klang is quite bulky with defenses better than even Bronzor, although it's susceptible to super effective attacks that are far from uncommon. In any case it's quite dangerous with shift gear and gear grind to any teams lacking Gourgeist, Mareanie or Pyukumuku.

Pikachu UR -> UU
Light ball boosts Pikachu's attack to an amount equivocal to Slaking's base 160 attack and it has a really good speed tier and priority move for its strength. Unfortunately the combination of fake out and extremespeed is illegal and Pikachu struggles to break Gourgeist-Super, something which Electivire beats with flamethrower. Also Pikachu is incredibly frail and takes heavy recoil from its stab attack.

Luxray UR -> UU
Luxray is outshined by Electivire in a lot of ways, but it has two good abilities and good stats so I don't see why it should be tossed out completely. I think it can make a decent pivot and status absorber with guts and assault vest to take on Swanna, Toucannon, and Rotom-Fan. Wild Charge and Superpower from a base 120 attack are quite decent and it can run hp water to 2hko defensive Golem even with an Adamant nature.

Trubbish UR -> UU
Of all the potential spikers in ZU, I think Trubbish is the most promising. Sticky Hold in conjunction with eviolite is pretty cool and it has enough special bulk when invested to take on things like Combusken and z-move Swanna, while it can stay healthy with rest + sleep talk.

Whirlipede UR -> UU
I dont think Whirlipede doesn't have the same defensive utility as Trubbish, but it has some cool options like endeavor to use alongside speedboost.

Eevee UR -> UU
Eevee only really fits on screens teams and even then it's outclassed. That being said, it can easily sweep unprepared teams as it's not at all easy to revenge at +2 defenses behind screens.

Carvanha UR -> UU
This thing has slightly better speed and attack than Combusken and a diverse movepool with options like taunt and destiny bond so that's something. It's held back by its horrible defenses though.

Lampent UR -> UU
Lampent's three immunities hardwall Combusken, Simisear, and z-encore Chatot, and it has good stabs backed by a decent special attack.
While I trust you since I have myself used Trubbish and Hippopotas, and faced Pikachu and Whirlipede, it's very important to include replaies to nom of Pokemon from UR.
So I have a replay with Pikachu https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-918616562 (Quag topped the ladder with this team). Also I believe we might be able to find good replaies from Hippopotas in some stalls like Kay's one.

But for Zweilous I have much more:
UR -> Ranked, Agree. I don't have experience with SpD Zweilous since i never used or faced Kay's stall but I have used a lot Choice Band Zweilous during the past weeks. Even if most of the time it's just a bad Shiftry, Zweilous has the advantage to be able to OHKO/2HKO a lot of Dark-resists such as Machoke, Hakamo-o, Silvally-Fighting and deals far more damage than Shiftry. It isn't that slow compared to other wallbreakers and is a decent last emergency Shiftry's check ala Combusken. However it has its flaws and against HO or Fairy-type balanced it kind of sucks.
Killed a Shiftry which allows Gourg+Zor to wall the rest of my opponent's team: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-895675724
Killed Cradily very early letting me without SR for the rest of the game and was able to take on Rapidash: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-897302923
Broke through a Mawile stall thanks to Fire Fang shenanigans: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-912351861
Almost killed Metang and emergency checked Shiftry: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-920333696

So now nom from my own,

C -> C+, Natu should imo be a staple on stall teams due to its ability to beat most hazard setters such as Sandslash, Gabite, Bronzor, Cradily, Mareanie, Quilladin, Hippopotas and thanks to Reflect also Golem and non-Shell Smash Crustle. It also eases the match up against opposing stalls since it hard counters Pyukumuku, no Attack Lickilicky and Hippopotas. Sketchy and me had a lot of success with it on the ladder with different stall teams (the team allowed me to get reqs with 26-4).

UU -> C. Vullaby is just like Vibrava criminally underrated. Vullaby is able to take on 2 very hard offensive type to deal with Grass and Psychic. It handles Shiftry, Kadabra, Beheeyem, Leafeon, Simisage, Servine, and Eggy (best eggy answer btw). That while also providing U-turn and defog. And unlike Altaria it can beat hazard setters such as non Toxic Sandlash, Golem depending on the spread and Marowak, while also bothering Bronzor and Mareanie thanks to Knock Off.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Wanna give some opinions on some of the noms.
  • A -> A+
Combusken is one of the best late game cleaners in the tier right now hands down. While it does have its fair share of checks, mainly being Swanna, Mareanie, Altaria, WaterVally, and to a lesser extent more niche stuff like Oricorio, Combusken can still muscle through its checks through either utilizing Z-Moves, setting up with Swords Dance or generally waiting till the endgame until most of its more frailer checks are at the point where it can clean up late game. I consider Busken to be one of the most threatening mons against offense atm and any non-balance or stall team needs at least 1-2 checks to it in order to not be just swept by it. Even then, coverage such as HP Electric or Ice can beat down checks like Swanna and Altaria respectively, further pushing its ability to break through many teams. It does struggle versus the ever so common Scarf Evire and Swanna, needing 3 Speed Boosts to outspeed both of them, however Busken's ability to muscle through the majority of teams coupled with its solid matchups versus top tier threats such as Shiftry, Komala, and Abomasnow makes me feel that it deserves a rise to A+ atm.

  • Stay in A+
Voted against this last slate and I still feel the same way. While Golem is super splashable as an SR setter and is hands down the most consistent one we have in the tier atm, I still feel its reliability on Sturdy (especially for more offensive sets) can leave it struggling versus certain teams once it has been chipped. Specially and Physically defensive sets also have a hard time with the rise of wallbreakers such as Swanna, Shiftry, Combusken, and Toucannon which can all break through it again once its Sturdy has been broken. I just don't feel Golem is as consistent of a threat to warrant a rise to S rank compared to Swanna and Shiftry, however I would like to note that Band sets are incredibly good, however can be checked by Bronzor and opposing Golem + Swanna teams due to the need to predict which STAB move to use.

  • A+ -> A
Was never a huge fan of Pinsir being in A+ in the first place so I was glad when this nomination was made. To me, while Pinsir has many attributes going for it, especially when considering the ability for its SD Mold Breaker and Z-Me First Moxie sets wrecking two distinct playstyles in Balance and Offense respectively, making it a great pick for the majority of teams, its tendency to get worn down throughout the match especially given its SR weakness leads me to prefer more consistent wallbreakers such as Combusken, Shiftry, and Komala. This is also why I am not a huge fan of the Scarf set as well, as not only does its Speed tier make it not outspeed the other two relevant Scarf users, but also due to the fact that it can't really come in too many times due to that hazard weakness. I found Pinsir's prime to be in a more balance orientated metagame, where its Moxie sets can break through the ever so common MareanZor defensive cores commonly seen at the time, however given how common its offensive checks are, I don't feel Pinsir is deserving of it's A+ spot atm.

  • A+ -> A
Also wanna back this nom up for similar reasons to Pinsir in a way, the fact that wallbreakers that can break Gourgeist-S such as Swanna, Combusken, Abomasnow, and Rapidash, and even Shiftry if its Colbur Berry has been eaten are all so common and really make Gourg's job of being a physical tank really hard. Adding on to this, Gourg's general passivity really makes it a harder pick for more offensive teams often relying on more momentum based defensive pivots such as Mawile, Komala, and FightVally, making Gourg a rare sight on those type of teams atm. The fact that balance is not in such a great spot makes me believe Gourg-S should drop due to this as a result in my eyes, as it was the face of such as playstyle for the longest time.

  • A -> A+
Mareanie has seen a surge of usage again and its not surprising to see why, being able to check mons such as Combusken, Swanna, FightingVally, and even Specs Abomasnow in a pinch is a godsend for most bulky offensive teams rn. Its movepool also adds a lot to offer, with Toxic Spikes being a highlight enabling wallbreakers such as Shiftry and Combusken to have an easier time breaking through their respective checks and other options such as Knock Off and Haze also having valuable assets. Marenie being one of the best defensive pivots due to Tangela's absence makes it warrant a rise in my opinion, as it can circumvent is general passivity and usually provide so much support for its team that its practically insane. Also more people should use Spd or mixed bulk Mars, its rlly nice ;)

  • A- -> B+
Another mon that I felt should drop a long time ago, Mr. Mime does struggle in performing both its roles as a wallbreaker and a Scarf user rn. The former has a hard time dealing with offensive teams carrying many offensive checks to it via priority or just having general faster mons that can threaten to OHKO it, while the ladder is kinda weak and can still be outspeed by the other common scarfers (akin to Pinsir). Healing Wish and Trick support is still hella nice, but again I find Mime a mon to benefit a more slower paced meta which unfortunately our current meta is not kind to, which is why I believe it should drop.

Don't want to make this post too long lol but I also agree with a Servine and Dusclops rise alongside a drop for Altaria, Machoke, Carbink and Zebstrika.
 
Some VR thoughts/noms:

Golem -> S: The most spashable mon in the tier, from HO to Balance its often your best choice as a rocker. Even with its considerable shortcomings (special bulk, two 4x weaknesses etc) it is still a premier choice for any team. The list of mons that golem checks and threatens (in some way) is a long one and not limited too: Evire, Muk, Pinsir, Rapidash, Komala, Crustle, Mawile, Kecleon, Bouffalant, Mareanie, Alt and Pawn. It has three equally effectve sets; custap, defensive and choice band. On top of this it stops volt switch momentum, can 2hko the whole tier bar Vibrava with prediction and can set rocks and exlpode for a HO. Alot of teams are ill prepared for offensive Golem whilst alot of teams also have to trade an excessive of mons to KO opposing Golem. Its splashability and versatility is what makes it a better choice then other A+ mons.

Agree: Combusken and Mareanie to A+, Pinsir and Gourg to A, Mime, Machoke and Alt to B+, Dusclops, Slowpoke, Zwei, Vibrava, Vullaby, Pikachu, Hippo ranked/rise; Disagree with Eevee, Lampent, Carvanha, Luxray, Klang, Whirl and Trubbish ranked/rises. Agree with cleansing the majority of UU.

On top of this I'd also like to see the following:

Mawile -> A-: Similar to Golem, Mawile has its short comings, but it also does alot of things very well in ZU that not many others do, such as check the following: Komala, Shiftry, Touc, Kec, Muk, Machoke check, absorb status, set rocks, great against stall with SToss and super fang, great for stall especially with wish support and has a wildly underated Sheer Force set. I don't use much Mawile myself but everytime I match up against it, it is always super effective at the rolls it is filling.

Shiinotic -> B+/A-: Hands down the best counter to Shiftry (baring the oft talked about, seldom seen ZHurricane/Bounce sets), it is also a fantastic physical wall but it needs a normal resist alongside it, as Shiin cannot switch in on band Komala, but can 1v1 band Komala if it is already in. It has the busted combo of Sap Strength and Spore and has decent offensive output even uninvested. Leech seed is also a fantastic option to help phase out switch ins and rack up chip damage. Effect spore is also really great and helps deter weaker physical attackers. It doesn't have the out and out bulk of Gourg-XL but works fantastically well none the less.

Dragonvally -> A+: Imo the best Vally form, especially with the continued drop in Bronz use as invested Dracos have very few switch ins. It is fantastic at generating momentum early game and also with some bulk investment is a nice soft check for mons such as Combusken, Rapidash, Shiftry etc. My preference for Dragon over Fighting has a lot to do with Shiftry running Leaf storm which much easier allows it to chip away at Fightvally, decreasing its effectiveness as a check. I really do think its the best defogger at the moment.
 
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I disagree with rise A+ silvally-Dragon because he is easily weakness and can be pop by sucker punch at +2 with a little amount of dommage, he also lose the 1v1 with rapidash because he cant OHKo and rapidash just weakness this especially if hight horsepower.
 
I disagree with rise A+ silvally-Dragon because he is easily weakness and can be pop by sucker punch at +2 with a little amount of dommage, he also lose the 1v1 with rapidash because he cant OHKo and rapidash just weakness this especially if hight horsepower.
Howdy, I appreciate this discussion surrounding Dragonvally. I think you have focused on the wrong points as to why IMO dragonvally deserves a rise however.
164+ SpA Silvally-Dragon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rapidash: 208-246 (76.7 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock.
Above proves that silvally definitely does beat Rapidash.

First of all, Dragonvally has very few switchins, especially ones that aren’t super passive (licki) where uturn simply allows you to pivot into a different mon that threatens your switchin. Flamethrower also massively threatens the 2 most common fairies atm in Shiinotic and Mawile.

164+ SpA Silvally-Dragon Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Shiinotic: 160-190 (49.3 - 58.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

You also assume that Dragonvally would be run as a lone shiftry check which would be troublesome. It is meant to be played as an offensive pivot which defogs, drops massive dracos, and pivots as its main role. Secondly it’s great typing in ZU (no fairies and very few other dragon and ice types) can be used as a SSI to some common mons. It is certainly no check to these mons such as Rapidash, Shiftry and Combusken but it does resist at least one of their stabs (and also can’t be knocked off) giving it some handy secondary defensive qualities.
 
Howdy, I appreciate this discussion surrounding Dragonvally. I think you have focused on the wrong points as to why IMO dragonvally deserves a rise however.
164+ SpA Silvally-Dragon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rapidash: 208-246 (76.7 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock.
Above proves that silvally definitely does beat Rapidash.

First of all, Dragonvally has very few switchins, especially ones that aren’t super passive (licki) where uturn simply allows you to pivot into a different mon that threatens your switchin. Flamethrower also massively threatens the 2 most common fairies atm in Shiinotic and Mawile.

164+ SpA Silvally-Dragon Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Shiinotic: 160-190 (49.3 - 58.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

You also assume that Dragonvally would be run as a lone shiftry check which would be troublesome. It is meant to be played as an offensive pivot which defogs, drops massive dracos, and pivots as its main role. Secondly it’s great typing in ZU (no fairies and very few other dragon and ice types) can be used as a SSI to some common mons. It is certainly no check to these mons such as Rapidash, Shiftry and Combusken but it does resist at least one of their stabs (and also can’t be knocked off) giving it some handy secondary defensive qualities.
I just say he can switch in in rapidash but can't kill this because morning sun first free and you can just u turn.
So i just a wrong check for rapidash
 

S1nn0hC0nfirm3d

aka Ho3nConfirm3d
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a defending SCL Champion
The last VR update was a all out success in my opinion and was coherent with everything I had argued for. That said, it is hard to say what else is worth discussing but I'll address a few hot topics:


Golem to S: Disagree
Golem is an awesome and versatile mon that makes a great addition to many teams, but has glaring flaws that prevent it from rising to be one of the other S rank mons. Not to be the guy that talks about 4 times weaknesses as a reason for a mon's inadequacy, but it should be worth noting that every team will have at least one Grass or Water user that can undoubtably 2hko Golem or 1hko after some chip. It really makes Golem be checked by a ton of factors, so much so that even an unviable team could deal with it. On the contrary, the meta absolutely needed to adapt to build checks for Swanna and Shifty specifically, less you let your team get plowed by these threats. Golem can be super threatening too, but its put in its place by a ton of mons. The fact that so many defensive Pokemon can speed creep it to at least 190 speed (Slash, Gourg, Kom, ect) shows how centralizing it is, but also how simple it can be to just deal with it. I think that all three sets provide much needed support to the right team, yet the limitations of Golem's typing and speed make it not S worthy. A solid A+ for sure, but not S.


Combusk to A+: Agree
Nothing else in the meta captures the sweeping potential like Combusk, and its versatility in its sets proves its an A+ mon for the tier. Seriously, any set cannot only deal with its checks, but also be successful in its own right. I'm referencing the many options the special set has in conjunction with SD eviolite. Like, even if you scouted to see if its physical/special, the HP it has (elect for swan/mare, ice for Altaria) still is in question. And special walls like Muk still can't switch in on turn 1 because it has to fear an SD followed by Flare Blitz. Yes, it can be scouted, but its worth noting that a wrong prediction can end up horribly if you can't afford to scout. Combusk's typing allows it to set up an SD or just go for a strong attack on mons like Shift and Abo, with Eviolite helping the sweep or a Z move helping to break a wall. Its pairs well on so many offensive cores and is a go-to pick for a fire type thanks to that great supportive Fighting typing and sweeping potential. Most Fire types can't compete in this regard, as they lack a better typing or ability than Combusk. On the other side, we're also in a tier devoid of fighting types, and Combusk offers so much in that department as well. It's totally an A+ mon and is only held back by a handful of defensive checks and inability to outspeed scarfs like Vire and Swan at +2.


Pinsir to A: Agree
The rest of the A+ mons outcompete Pinsir in terms of general viability in many regards, and Pinsir's roles are beginning to gain more competition. It's just no longer the A+ mon that it was once worth. It's sets are still great, and I am of the opinion that SD Mold Breaker is one of the best stall breakers for the tier. Yet it fails in many regards, like how its SR weakness means that LO Fake Out + Sucker from Shift after rocks is a guaranteed KO. Its speed before any boosts is also underwhelming, being able to outspeed any walls sure but failing to outspeed threats like Chatot, Orricico, and all the base 95 and above mons. It's a real shame because it ends up being one of the slower scarves of the tier sadly and it will continue to be checked by a ton of faster mons, and with that it becomes harder for it to get up a Z-Me First or for the scarf sets to pose too much of a threat. In short, I believe the meta has made the more offensive Pinsir sets much more manageable than once thought, and it should drop to A and only A as these sets still are valuable, namely with its wallbreaking potential.


Mare to A+: Disagree
Having the great ability Regenerator with a decent enough defensive typing has made Mare a staple on any sort of defensive teams. It is so valuable for the defensive cores it makes with Bronz/Altaria/Shii, and provides something maybe even more valuable with Toxic Spikes, and it being the go-to tspiker for all sorts of teams, even offensive ones (see my webs team). It can do all these great things and more (checking Combusk, Haze for Curse Muk), but it is held back by its stats and reliance on Eviolite. By dumping your points into defense, your special defense is lackluster, and vice versa as well. By being able to only provide for one defensive stat to dump into, Mare innately has a hard time dealing with the other type of attackers. These poor defensive stats in combo with being unable to stomach a lot of mixed attacks that prevents it form being A+. It's still a staple for so many teams, but I believe its overall viability and inability to take a lot of hard hits prevents it from being better than A. I get that Regenerator and its role as a pivot makes it more forgivable that it doesn't have the best defenses, but teams will have a problem then by not having a bulkier Water type for the role. The wrong defensive sets and matchups can be 2hko'd by mons that a bulkier water type should be able to deal with:
If specially defensive:
252 Atk Rapidash High Horsepower vs. 248 HP / 40 Def Eviolite Mareanie: 160-190 (52.8 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Swanna Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 40 Def Eviolite Mareanie: 138-163 (45.5 - 53.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Basculin Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 40 Def Eviolite Mareanie: 192-226 (63.3 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Beartic Subzero Slammer (
160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 40 Def Eviolite Mareanie: 265-312 (87.4 - 102.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
If physically defensive:
252 SpA Life Orb Combusken Hidden Power Electric vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Mareanie: 146-172 (48.1 - 56.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Swanna Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Mareanie: 153-181 (50.4 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Swanna Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Mareanie: 258-304 (85.1 - 100.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Z-Hurricane)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Wishiwashi Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Mareanie: 174-206 (57.4 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It's these calcs and more that I believe Mare should stay in A. Still a great mon and a neccasity, but in many ways also a liability for defensive teams that they have to resort to Mare in some situations when it cannot deal with everything that I believe an A+ wall should.
 
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SBPC

stranded on an island
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Well I'm going to jump the gun on this since it just got unbanned.

Exeggutor: New > A (could argue for A-)
The egg boy is absolutely crazy in this tier, with a good mix of sets in Specs, Life Orb Sleep Powder + 3 Attacks, Sunny Day, Trick Room, it finds itself lacking no amount of tricks or tools. However it's typing lands itself in a spot where it's extremely weak to U-Turn users as well as common offensive types in Fire and Ice. This mon was even considered banworthy throughout its suspect for it's positives in it's incredible breaking power, set diversity, and lack of reliable switchins. I think A is a good place to start it.
 
Well I'm going to jump the gun on this since it just got unbanned.

Exeggutor: New > A (could argue for A-)
The egg boy is absolutely crazy in this tier, with a good mix of sets in Specs, Life Orb Sleep Powder + 3 Attacks, Sunny Day, Trick Room, it finds itself lacking no amount of tricks or tools. However it's typing lands itself in a spot where it's extremely weak to U-Turn users as well as common offensive types in Fire and Ice. This mon was even considered banworthy throughout its suspect for it's positives in it's incredible breaking power, set diversity, and lack of reliable switchins. I think A is a good place to start it.
I feel like throughout eggy's suspect that it was quite underwhelming unless it's carried that Endure + Custap set. While I could agree with your ranking for now the meta just doesn't really cater to eggy's 55 base speed stat and with the reliability of Voltturn, Shiftry, Swanna, Combusken and other niche picks (that I can't remember while I am typing this out).

Though, I think that eggy's large amount of usable sets and it's bulky nature is a plus:

I would rather like to see Exeggutor: New > A- (as you suggested) as it does fit within the realm of a theoretical A- mon.

(Hot take: I think that eggy wasn't even that banworthy throughout the suspect, and those who voted ban were over exaggerating.)
 
184157

UR --> B-

Many people just shrug Octillery off as a garbage mon with low speed, but while yes, its speed holds it back. It is not one to be slept on, it is practically a Swiss army knife with the coverage this octopus gets. Able to reliably counter almost every type (except for electric and maybe dark.) Along with it's balanced stats and good offenses, being able to absolutely decimate anything that doesn't attack the first turn is out, unfortunately, if the opponent goes for any grass/electric move first turn Octillery is out, he's basically toast. Octillery functions extraordinarily well with trick room support.

Functions for Trick room:
Octillery @ Life Orb
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Psychic
- Flash Cannon

"Speedy" Specs
Octillery @ Choice Specs
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Energy Ball
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump

Scarf (Suprisingly works?)
Octillery @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Sludge Wave
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump

Impractical as hell but fun
Octillery (M) @ Quick Claw
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Fire Blast
- Energy Ball

Assault vest
Octillery @ Assault Vest
Ability: Suction Cups
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Fire Blast
- Energy Ball

Band (Don't really recommend but could still work)
Octillery @ Choice Band
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Gunk Shot
- Return
- Seed Bomb

Z hyper beam
Octillery (M) @ Normalium Z
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Beam
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Fire Blast

With (most) of these sets, Octillery can become an unpredictable, potent beast in the ZU metagame.

(also, if you want, you can use scald instead of hydro pump, either way works.)
 

Xayah

San Bwanna
is a Community Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
View attachment 184157
UR --> B-

Many people just shrug Octillery off as a garbage mon with low speed, but while yes, its speed holds it back. It is not one to be slept on, it is practically a Swiss army knife with the coverage this octopus gets. Able to reliably counter almost every type (except for electric and maybe dark.) Along with it's balanced stats and good offenses, being able to absolutely decimate anything that doesn't attack the first turn is out, unfortunately, if the opponent goes for any grass/electric move first turn Octillery is out, he's basically toast. Octillery functions extraordinarily well with trick room support.

Functions for Trick room:
Octillery @ Life Orb
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Psychic
- Flash Cannon

"Speedy" Specs
Octillery @ Choice Specs
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Energy Ball
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump

Scarf (Suprisingly works?)
Octillery @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Sludge Wave
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump

Impractical as hell but fun
Octillery (M) @ Quick Claw
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Fire Blast
- Energy Ball

Assault vest
Octillery @ Assault Vest
Ability: Suction Cups
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Fire Blast
- Energy Ball

Band (Don't really recommend but could still work)
Octillery @ Choice Band
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Gunk Shot
- Return
- Seed Bomb

Z hyper beam
Octillery (M) @ Normalium Z
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Beam
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Fire Blast

With (most) of these sets, Octillery can become an unpredictable, potent beast in the ZU metagame.

(also, if you want, you can use scald instead of hydro pump, either way works.)
First of all, most of these sets are unviable, especially Band and Scarf, but they suffer from the same issue Octillery does in general: competition. Between Swanna, Simipour, Floatzel, and the newly dropped Poliwrath, we have plenty of good Water-type breakers to choose from, and unfortunately, Octillery's coverage doesn't really do anything for it. There are no Pokemon in ZU that it can notably take out that other Water-type breakers can't, so there's just very little point. With its low Speed and mediocre bulk, it's pressured constantly, so on any team that isn't Trick Room, you're just gonna wanna run one of the faster Water-types.

So how about Trick Room? Sure, on paper, Octillery seems like a nice tool for the archetype, with low Speed, good Special Attack, and an excellent movepool. There is one problem though: Wishiwashi exists. For all intents and purposes, Wishiwashi is just the better Water-type for Trick Room, due to way better bulk and offenses. Sure, it's movepool isn't as good, but Hydro Pump/Ice Beam/Earthquake/HP Electric hits everything anyway, so that doesn't matter one bit. There's just no real reason to use Octillery over Wishiwashi.

All in all, just use a different Water-type. Octillery isn't worth it.
 

Sputnik

Bono My Tires are Deceased
is a Contributor Alumnus
I'm just gonna make a quick drop nom that should be talked about after the tier shifts.



Beartic: B- ---> C-

It pains me to say it, because I adore Beartic, but this thing basically required Abomasnow to be in the tier to do its job. Without the presence of the Christmas Tree it is just way too slow to effectively do anything aside from be a wall breaker that has a really tough time going up against more offensive playstyles and doesn't have the coverage to effectively break a lot of the most common defensive mons. Unless you wanna go the rain sweeper route, but competition in that role is stiff because of the existence of Golduck, Floatzel, and even Swanna and Relicanth. (Edit: Also Poliwrath because we have that thing now as well) Our best hail setter now is probably Amaura, and Bear isn't good enough to justify running that thing. Abomasnow's utility outside of the hail setting role was one thing that made the Aboma+Bear core so dangerous, and Amaura doesn't give anything over Abomasnow outside of Stealth Rock. It's unfortunate, but Abomasnow leaving has left Beartic dead in the water. It's admittedly a decent rain sweeper, (which is the only thing that keeps it in the viability rankings at all in my opinion) but it faces stiff competition in that role and rain itself is of questionable effectiveness.
 
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Ill just do the new pokemon really quick

Exeggutor: A-
The typing is just so horrendous, loses to like every Silvally form due to u-turn and competes with Shiftry, for the Grass Spot on your team. That being said its still a Great Wallbreaker that can mix up its sets.

Poliwrath: A-
A fighting type that loses to Shiftry, yikes. Rain was no where near as good as before and idk why, maybe because it lost one of its best partners in Liepard or maybe its cause of swanna idk, but rain was just ok, something to keep in mind definitely, but not meta defining imo. The the bulky set is crazy though.

Silvally-Ghost: A-
A silvally form that isnt as good as Fightvally but provides just as much or more as Dragon and Water in that it blocks spins.
 

Ampha

"They don’t call me Greed for nothing!"
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Agree with new mons to A-(maybe silv ghost should go to B+ due to large influx of shiftry itself and some other factors)
And also
Floatzel A -> A-
The fact that floatzel got a new mon to compete for a team slot in Poli(dab)wrath while also gaining new the former to also be a check w new Eggy, despite being a floatzel enthusiast I cant deny it got worse

Edit:also still think my old bellossom nom should into since its still a pretty underrated setup sweeper
 
Some noms from the top of my head with no pics bc its late

Volbeat - rise C+ to B- at least - not much to say here, aboma left making the best weather setter in the tier for both rain and sun better, its defog support for rain is better too bc of silv-ghost being a new spinblocker, devaluing armaldo's spin (it also somewhat checks eggy, but this isnt super relevant)

Vullaby - rise C- to C/C+ - ah yes the lc broken mon just loved these new meta shifts, not only its the best counter for exeggutor in the tier by eating both stabs and being immune to sleep bc of overcoat, we also got silv-ghost for it to foul play mercilessly. Abomasnow leaving the tier is also notable for it, since it was usually a free switchin unless you uturned, and also poliwrath cant do jack shit to this

Silv-Fire - drop to UU/UR - damn this shift was cruel with silv-heat. It lost its only 2 niches of being the only silv that reliably could check abomasnow (with PU shamelessly stealing it) and being the special attacker silv for breaking defensive cores with bronzor due to super effective STAB, with the silv-ghost drop since it does it better. On top of that, we also got poliwrath, another mon it struggles to handle. This definitely has seen some better days and doesnt seem to have any viable niche on the metagame :(

New mons

Silv-spook - rank it A , spinblocker, almost perfect coverage with stab and edge alone (fuck pawniard no one uses that shit), excellent glue to most offensive/balanced teams, despite a dark weakness (hf coming in shiftry) that doesnt really hinder it imo from being one of the top silv forms. 2 immunities on ur silvally is crazy good and people are understimating this one

Agree on Poli and Exegg at A- - not much to add on these 2
 
185509
B- ---> B/B+

Purugly has a solid niche in that it can deter Defog and Parting Shot, which are very common at the moment, courtesy of Swanna and Silvally respectively. In addition, it has a great speed tier, outspeeding most of the unboosted metagame (Floatzel is one of the few notable exceptions.) The main reason I don't think this is A material is because of its specific niche. Purugly only really fits on more offensive teams who appreciate its Defog deterring abilities, so it's rather inflexible. Overall, while not truly amazing by any stretch, Purugly has the tools to be a solid option for teams in need of its specific skills, and I believe that justifies a higher rank for it.
 

Apagogie

Zee you later
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
Drops

Kecleon A -> A-
Kecleon is in a pretty bad spot at the moment. Every team runs a good knock off resist to be able to handle Shiftry effectively and unfortunately, the two main stab of kecleon (fighting and dark) are often covered by these mons. A tier where Mawile, Silvally-Fighting, Shiinotic is in the every team is a tier where a kecleon has trouble to make some work. Even soft shiftry answer such as Rapidash are an issue because it can always burn it. When it's not the Shiftry answers which are an issue, it's the combusken answers which are problematic : Kecleon is unable to win the dual against Mareanie, same against altaria without ice beam or even now against defensive Poliwrath. It also loses against Gourgeist-Super which is the main physical wall in ZU.

On paper, Kecleon is able to bypass some of its counters in playing either fire blast or ice beam but the problem is that choose an option will force you to forget the other and you will be basically choose by who you are walled (Altaria or Mawile). I add as well that for a special tank, Kecleon doesnt switch in on a lot of threats. It cannot switch on Swanna because Scald burn, on mareanie because scald burn and anyway it loses the dual, against rotom-fan because wow, against special combusken because it does way too much, against floatzel because if it's physical floatzel it is 2HKO, etc. The only special mons it is relatively able to switch into are psychic types (and even that, it is not rare that beheyeem is played psyshock and you dont wanted to be tricked if you face a Mime), and Vally Water / Dragon / Ghost (which click U-turn on the switch 70% of the time). I dont really see the purpose in playing Kecleon right now and this is why I think that A- reflects better its viability in the current meta.

Floatzel A -> A-
Floatzel has not shown something specially relevant since its arrival. If on paper it has only few answers, in practise you have always something which is able to at least revenge killed it. The common core of Marezor is generally enough to deal with it and also several good answers according to its set such as gourgeist-super or muk. The coming of poliwrath is not a good thing either on paper, even if we should wait a bit before taking that into consideration. Globally, it is less effective than the rest of the A rank with mons such as Bronzor, Crustle, Rapidash, Silvally-Fighting, Combusken, Mareanie and it fits better in the A- rank next to Vally-Water, Dragon, Lickilicky and Beheyeem.

Simisear A- -> B+
I didnt agree with its rise in A- and to have played Simisear in many teams, I think i can safely say that it is an average mon in the meta. The role of Simisear inside the meta is special because on paper normally it is a mon able to threat passive builds, such as stall or semi stall. It is not something which is obvious when Mareanie or Altaria are played in almost every bulky teams (notably to handle the other fire type, Combusken) and where better stall/wallbreakers exist in the tier. Mons like Toucannon or Beheyeem specs break not only stall better, they are also usable outside of the match up against the bulky playstyles. Simisear has very few opportunities to set up against active teams and doesn't pressure much since it is quite easy to revenge kill, notably by electivire. I have personally never had trouble to deal with this pokemon, it is also very disappointing when i use it because it is a deadweight against anything not called stall and i dont remember a single tournament battle where it was useful against a team which wasn't composed of 6 defensive mons. Beheyeem, Lickilicky, Pyukumuku, Vally-Dragon are all more viable than Simisear in the current meta and even things such as Mawile and Toucannon in B+ are better so i think a drop is necessary and deserved.

Machoke A- -> B+
I start to repeat myself. I didnt agree either with its rise so high in A- (even if Machoke is a correct mon in the meta). The main reason of the rise was that it is an approximately, Shiftry answer but it is not the case in practise because it dies on knock off to leaf storm. Hakamo-o, even if less played, is due to that a better glue in the team, which also allows it to stop some fire types such as special Combusken. I already mentionned that but the fighting dark coverage is not amazing at the moment due to the amount of prepation for Shiftry and the fact that Shiinotic or Mawile is in the majority of teams. Even the return of Poliwrath is bad for Machoke so I think it has no reason now to be ranked that high.

Simisage B -> B-
I was surprised to see Simisage in the B rank to be honest. Mons like Hakamo-o, Camerupt, Shiinotic, Dusclops and Sandslash are B and Simisage is less viable in the current meta than these mons. Special Simisage has the same problem than Simisear in terms of set up opportunity (a bit less though) but contrary to its brother, it is hard walled in stall by Muk which doesn't make a great pick against this playstyle. The metagame is also really prepared against grass moves, and its physical set suffers from that. Gunk shot saves more or less its place but it stays walled by Mawile which is quite popular right now. Not a bad mon but it is less splashable than the others B rank.

Dusknoir B- -> C+ / C
Dusknoir is the second setter of Trick Room, it is not mandatory in Trick rooms and this playstyle is not as strong as weather right now. Volbeat which is the main weather set is C+ (which is a correct place in my opinion). Dusknoir should drop in C rank where its viability fits, C+ is okay though if we are conservative.

Wishiwashi B- -> C+
The problem of Wishiwashi is that even with the high support of a full trick room team, it is not the best breaker inside of this archetype. It struggles to get OHKO against any playstyle which is not HO, especially now with the number of water resist in the tier which is increasing. If on paper, its coverage allows it to bypass its switch ins, it's rarely the case in practise, relying on predictions which doesnt put necessary the opponent in a bad spot, especially if you are locked with the choice specs. Clicking hydro pump also means that you do 0 damage 20% of the time. Compared to other breakers in Trick Room, such as Camerupt specs, Rampardos or Beheyeem, Wishiwashi school is by far the easiest to manage and the one against whom you have the possibility to stall the trick rooms turns. I will even assume that the best trick room teams built nowadays are the trick room built without wishiwashi, due to the fact that it is an inconsistant breaker.

Wishiwashi is sometimes (but rarely) played outside of trick room in a specifc playstyle which consists to wish pass Wishiwashi to break passive builds. The problem with this archetype of team is if it is quite strong against balances without offensive pressure, it is quickly weak to offenses and stall. The cost to play Wishiwashi and generally Lickilicky in wisher means that the rest of the team has to cover the list of threats, aka Shiftry / Combusken / T-Spikes / Crustle with limited slots. The final result is often a team which is either really passive itself or a team which is too much match up based and which automatically loses against a top tier.

C+ is a kind choice because it could drop lower but we dont know yet the real impact of poliwrath on the tier to be demanding with wishiwashi.

Furfrou C+ -> C/C-
Sorry Kay but the Furfrou is just an outclassed Vigoroth. A classic Taunt Vigoroth does exactly the same thing but it is way more threating because it cannot let Mareanie hazes you and does not let two free turns of set up to any sweeper in the tier. Vigoroth outclasses Furfrou in almost any situation and the cotton guard / work up set is easliy comparable to Munchlax rest talk, shell armor torkoal curse amnesia or any Meowsitc Barrier CM. These sets are not in themselves bad, they are however partially or totally outclassed by other pokemons, generally Vigoroth or Duosion Acid Armor CM. See Furfrou is ranked above mons such as Duosion, Corsola, Bibarel or Vibrava doesnt have really sense. It should drop to C- or at least C.

Rises & New mons

Vigoroth B+ -> A-
This nomination could look a bit strange because vigoroth doesnt look better with these drops. However, the drop in the viability rankings of Vigoroth was not justified in my opinion, nothing has really changed in months to explain its drop of A to B+. Recently, the battle who opposed tjay to fruitshopowner has shown that its mon without any preparation wins games alone. It is not very played, true, but usage doesnt mean the viability. Since Poliwrath and Vally-Ghost are in the metagame now, I nominate a careful rise in A- but i think it's one of the most underrated mon of the metagame. You are rarely safe against it and it is one of the few mons you must be prepared for when you build a team. The counterplays are rare, too much rare to see this mon that low in the VR.

Mawile B+ -> A-
Mawile becomes the third best stealth rocker in the tier, just after golem and bronzor. Its ability to handle Shiftry and set up stealth rock in one slot is huge. The fact that i mentionned mawile several times in this post to explain the decrease of viability of some mons is self explanatory, this pokemon is a staple mon for a lot of teams which influences the meta. It is also a mon which is, despite its bulk not impressive, not easy to get rid of, especially with leftovers where its staying power is sometimes quite impressive for a mon in theory a bit frail. Even if it is always played with approximately the same set, Mawile has a versatility which allows it to be a threat in some match up. I remember one my battle against stall where my opponent struggled to get rid of a simple Mawile taunt Seismic toss. Globally, it has a big influence on the teams and on the meta for a pokemon in B+, it deserves to be A-.

Shiinotic B -> B+
It is a surprise for nobody, Shiinotic is a staple mons in a lot of teams. Its ability to deal with electivire, golem and shiftry in only one slot is huge, especially at the moment. Shiinotic is far to be the perfect mon and its bulk is sometimes a bit disappointing but however it has what it needs to be strong in this meta. Its many different kinds of support make it enjoyable for a team, especially set up sweepers which are quite strong nowadays with spore/effect spore/leech seed and even strength sap. A rise in B+ is heavily deserved, it is a very correct mon now.

Vally-Ghost Unranked -> B+/A-
Ghost resists dont really exist except normal type in this tier so i think it's a correct mon for sure. I played it in some spikes and it is a great spinblocker with keeps a good offensive presence. Nothing special else to add, it is not more specially threating than a vally-dragon or a vally-water and i dont feel vallys are that good right now either. I think to start in B+/A- is a correct place.

Poliwrath Unranked -> A-/A
Poliwrath, for a new mon, is not really affected by the new toy syndrom, which makes the opinions difficult to make. However, every sets it runs are globally good. SubPunch hits hard, very hard and walls mareanie with earthquake which is enjoyable because this mon was cancerous to deal with. Defensive Poliwrath is more or less an other answer to SD combusken (thanks Arceus) and an alright golem switch in. It is also a good pick against stall because it prevents lickilicky to heal itself / the team in phazing it. I played a lot of rain teams with belly drum poliwrath and it is quite hard to set up it because when you have the opportunity to set up (which is hard), you generally dont have enough turns of rain. However, once it is done, you generally win the game in the right conditions. Poliwrath in general is a good pick in rain because it is the best shiftry revenge killer and with the departure of Abomasnow, it is clear that rain teams is now a threat to take into account. Paradoxally, Poliwrath is also one of the best rain answer which increases also its viability. A lot of people complain that Poliwrath is not as strong as they think, I'm not on this stand and I think that Poliwrath is pretty good in this meta. The future will tell us if I'm right or wrong but anyway, I think to rank it in A-/A is a good first place.


By the way, Gourgeist-Super and especially Pinsir really need to drop. I think A- is even better for Pinsir than A, this mon is not better than Beheyeem or is in the same level of viability than the rest of the A rank. It's crazy how it was good in the past but very average now.
 
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Tuthur

formerly 0-7 in FCL
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UR -> A: Nothing much to add to what Calucha said, bar that Eggy fits very well in the weather meta. Sunny Day version of Eggy are very potent against Rain Team and in Sun Team. Moreover Custap Eggy eats Rain Team for breakfast, it just has to be careful to Aqua Jet from Beartic, Basculin and Swanna, but otherwise it takes on every other Rain member.
(Ghost) UR ->A-: Best spinblocker in the meta, far better than Gourgeist-S and Drifblim in this role. It's also nice to have a reliable Normal-resist in HO (because Pawniard kind of sucks defensively). For me Ghostvally is in the same vein as Silvally-Water as it's a Silvally form that can't handle Shiftry but offers however good defensive utility (spinblocking, immunity to Circle Throw, checking Vigoroth with Toxic, good against CB Mala and Bouff).
UR -> A-: I changed a bit my mind since my post on the main thread, Poliwrath defensive sets aren't as bad as I thought thanks to Water Absorb. Poliwrath is very bulky and can check a lot of stuffs such as Golem, Floatzel and Combusken. However being a Fighting-types that loses to Shiftry, a Water-type that loses to Swanna, being hard walled by Mareanie when T-Spikes are great and not easy to absorb and having a trash STAB combination (resisted by Mareanie, Gourgeist, Shiinotic, Swanna, Altaria, Exeggutor and Jumpluff). I believe A- is a good start for this, but I see it drop in the future.
Vigoroth B+ -> A-
This nomination could look a bit strange because vigoroth doesnt look better with these drops. However, the drop in the viability rankings of Vigoroth was not justified in my opinion, nothing has really changed in months to explain its drop of A to B+. Recently, the battle who opposed tjay to fruitshopowner has shown that its mon without any preparation wins games alone. It is not very played, true, but usage doesnt mean the viability. Since Poliwrath and Vally-Ghost are in the metagame now, I nominate a careful rise in A- but i think it's one of the most underrated mon of the metagame. You are rarely safe against it and it is one of the few mons you must be prepared for when you build a team. The counterplays are rare, too much rare to see this mon that low in the VR.
I agree very hard on this nomination. Vigoroth is often forgotten by teambuilding and takes easily advantages of the balance staples such as Gourgeist, Shiinotic, Golem, Fantom etc... Nobody uses Misdreavus nor Grumpig anymore and that's great for Vigoroth, also don't forget Mareanie loses to Taunt Vigo whereas Defensive Poliwrath loses to Sub Vigo (Circle Throw fails to break the sub at +1 in defense).

Wishiwashi B- -> C+
The problem of Wishiwashi is that even with the high support of a full trick room team, it is not the best breaker inside of this archetype. It struggles to get OHKO against any playstyle which is not HO, especially now with the number of water resist in the tier which is increasing. If on paper, its coverage allows it to bypass its switch ins, it's rarely the case in practise, relying on predictions which doesnt put necessary the opponent in a bad spot, especially if you are locked with the choice specs. Clicking hydro pump also means that you do 0 damage 20% of the time. Compared to other breakers in Trick Room, such as Camerupt specs, Rampardos or Beheyeem, Wishiwashi school is by far the easiest to manage and the one against whom you have the possibility to stall the trick rooms turns. I will even assume that the best trick room teams built nowadays are the trick room built without wishiwashi, due to the fact that it is an inconsistant breaker.

Wishiwashi is sometimes (but rarely) played outside of trick room in a specifc playstyle which consists to wish pass Wishiwashi to break passive builds. The problem with this archetype of team is if it is quite strong against balances without offensive pressure, it is quickly weak to offenses and stall. The cost to play Wishiwashi and generally Lickilicky in wisher means that the rest of the team has to cover the list of threats, aka Shiftry / Combusken / T-Spikes / Crustle with limited slots. The final result is often a team which is either really passive itself or a team which is too much match up based and which automatically loses against a top tier.

C+ is a kind choice because it could drop lower but we dont know yet the real impact of poliwrath on the tier to be demanding with wishiwashi.
Froussardine (Wishiwashi-School) @ Leftovers
Ability: Schooling
EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 56 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Scald
- U-turn
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

The spread allows you to avoid the 3HKO from Flynium Swanna's Hurricane.
I disagree with this nom. Specs Wishi isn't good but Wishi can easily run a Defensive RestTalk sets that can still put some hole because even an uninvested Scald from Wishiwashi does good damages. And thanks to its great bulk, Wishiwashi is able to wall every water-type not named Offensive Silvally-Water, Z-Mirror Move Swanna or Poliwrath. While this set can compete with Poliwrath, Wishiwashi has better stats
+2 252 Atk Combusken Sky Uppercut vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 156-184 (40.6 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Poliwrath Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Combusken: 194-230 (74.3 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Combusken Sky Uppercut vs. 248 HP / 204 Def Wishiwashi-School: 142-168 (48.4 - 57.3%) -- 43% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Wishiwashi-School Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Combusken: 348-410 (133.3 - 157%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Simisear Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 234-276 (60.9 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Poliwrath Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Simisear: 188-224 (64.6 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Simisear Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 56+ SpD Wishiwashi-School: 144-170 (49.1 - 58%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Wishiwashi-School Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Simisear: 338-398 (116.1 - 136.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Wishiwashi-School Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-Fan: 109-129 (35.8 - 42.4%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Poliwrath Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-Fan: 61-73 (20 - 24%) -- 1.1% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
So this Wishi is less bulky than Poli on the physical side but the damage output let's it more easily remove the Pokemon it checks and Wishi takes better on Special hits.
But the real strenght of this Wishiwashi set is the slow U-turn, that allows you to bring powerful wallbreakers on the Shiinotic, Gourgeist, Kecleon, ... that attempts to switch into it.
I don't have save enough replay to prove my point, but I hope people will understand it.
Here is the only replay where you can see U-turn Wishiwashi helping Pinsir to set up on Mareanie: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-943175714.

I'm just gonna make a quick drop nom that should be talked about after the tier shifts.



Beartic: B- ---> C-

It pains me to say it, because I adore Beartic, but this thing basically required Abomasnow to be in the tier to do its job. Without the presence of the Christmas Tree it is just way too slow to effectively do anything aside from be a wall breaker that has a really tough time going up against more offensive playstyles and doesn't have the coverage to effectively break a lot of the most common defensive mons. Unless you wanna go the rain sweeper route, but competition in that role is stiff because of the existence of Golduck, Floatzel, and even Swanna and Relicanth. (Edit: Also Poliwrath because we have that thing now as well) Our best hail setter now is probably Amaura, and Bear isn't good enough to justify running that thing. Abomasnow's utility outside of the hail setting role was one thing that made the Aboma+Bear core so dangerous, and Amaura doesn't give anything over Abomasnow outside of Stealth Rock. It's unfortunate, but Abomasnow leaving has left Beartic dead in the water. It's admittedly a decent rain sweeper, (which is the only thing that keeps it in the viability rankings at all in my opinion) but it faces stiff competition in that role and rain itself is of questionable effectiveness.
I strongly disagree with this nom. End of hail also means begin of Rain in which Beartic is a monster, being able to deal with Dragon and Grass-types with which Rain team can struggle. Imo Rain viability in the current metagame is B, so Beartic should be at B- because it's almost a staple there.
C -> B: Rain is very good atm with Abo left, Poli dropping and Swanna being as good as before. Golduck is probably the scariest rain sweeper before BD Poliwrath because it doesn't even need a turn to set up. Hydro Pump, Ice Beam and Synchronoise gives it the tool to wallbreak through every team under rain. Volbeat is a staple on both Rain and Sun team which are both very good atm.
UR -> somewhere in Cs: Onix is the best Sun Suicide lead thanks to its Speed that allows it to Taunt common leads such as Crustle, Golem and Bronzor. Thanks to Sturdy and this speed it can easily set up both SR and Sun and also sometime explode.
replays: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-941085979 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-939953979
B+ -> A-: Hakamo-o shares a lot of similarity with Poliwrath. They're both fighting types that can phaze thanks to a damaging move, checks fire-types and have similar bulk. Hakamo-o trades a better MU against Fire-types (takes less from Wild Charge, and is immune to Focus Blast), ability to handle Electric and Grass, two very common offensive type (Electivire, Shiftry namely), immunity to Shadow Ball and therefore ability to beat most Ghostvally and Special Drifblim for worst MU against Water-types (ice weakness+no water absorb), no Scald Burn and less good MU against every team that has a fairy type (tho Poli also dislikes them). Abomasnow leaving helps also a lot Hakamo-o.
A- -> B+: There are very little reason to run this Pokemon over Hakamo-o or Poliwrath that brings both useful resistances. Unlike them Machoke can't really punish Flying-types like Altaria, Swanna or Pain Split Fantom that would attempt to switch into it.
I also agree with
and
up, I don't have much to say that has already been said about them.
My previous noms also still stand tho I can see Vullaby and Zweilous rise higher due to Eggy's drop.
 

S1nn0hC0nfirm3d

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New Mons VR Noms:

A mon with no reliable switch ins, like at all, as it easily 2hkos everything. As a WB I gotta say it's one of the best. It is supported by some of the best mons of the tier, and has a speed that beats the base 45 users and speed creepers (Golem, Maro, Crustle, Sandslash, Wish Kom, and probably Alt too now that it won't speed creep Abo). I think it is only held back by its bulk and generally having a hard time finding switch ins, but it's Specs set almost always guarantees a kill or Sleep Powder. It makes stall run absurd checks like Sleep Talk Zweilous just so their team doesn't get plowed through. I believe it's an easy A rank, and should be a step about the A- checks
Poli can do a lot of things, but nothing that great. There's significant features in each set that make it overall underwelming and undeserving for the A or A- rank. The physical defensive set checks some top tier threats like physical Combusken, Pinsir, and Crustle. Those qualities alone make it a good choice, but it's also a defensive Water type that is weak to Swanna, which is a shame when something like Silv-Water can always take a hit at full and come back with a Tbolt. It's also vulnerable to Tspikes, and with Rest Talk is also underwhelming, abusable, and just not the best position to be in if you are forced to recover. Not to mention theres a lot that can switch in and punish Poli when its asleep: Rotom-F, Ebelt Vire, tons of Psychics like the ever threatening SubSalac Swoo or Kadabra, and lets not forget Shift. A problem with Poli is that its part Fighting type, but its the only viable Fighting type in the tier that will actually lose to Shiftry. Now Shiftry can still be dealt with other types and mons like Shii or Maw, but it is a teambuilding constraint worth noting that your wall loses to both the top two S tier threats and doesn't bring the traditional support that the Fighting type has been doing for ZU in the past months.

ZU already has a handful of good defensive water types, and while Poli brings something new to the table, I don't see it out competing any of them for the A tier.
I'm just not sold on Silv-Ghost at the moment. As a spinblocker, I still think Gourg-Small outcompetes it because of its better speed, Wisp, and Explosion. As an SD attacker, it's comparable to Silv-Fight, but without Fighting coverage itself it's limited to Double Edge. That is good neutral coverage and all but also sacrifices your valuable HP and moveslots, all for a base 95 speed/attack SD sweeper that we have a handful of comparable mons anyways (Silv-Fight, Leafeon, Sawsbuck, and Combusk too cause it's right there in the speed after a Protect anyways lol). Lastly, it's roll as a defensive pivot does not bring that much in comparison to other Silvallys, with the other A rank forms being much more valuable for the tier and specifically aren't weak to Knock Off and Sucker. So while I believe it has niches that are valuable enough for B+, I don't see it fitting in with the rest of the A tier, as it should always be second consideration to the other three A tier Silvally forms. Really, that mono Ghost typing isn't doing that much in the tier, and a lack of both an item or ability makes it arguably a sidegrade to the other Ghosts of the tier to many extents.
 
Time for my thoughts even tho I'm a little late.

185774

UR --> B

I think this mons heavily over hyped. The best thing it can do is phase things with circle throw and try to fish for scald burns/ toxic fighting immunity. Its heavily preyed on by the top tier mons such as swanna, mixed shiftry, and evire who are the most common offense mons in the tier which limits it heavily. Specs is kinda cool but with things like mareanie and muk running around, I don't see it pulling it off too well. And then you have rain sets which are kinda cute but require dedicated rain teams to even look at running it which turns it off for majority of teams looking for a water type. Overall its the definition of average.

185775

UR --> A+

Easily the best wall breaker in the tier right now. I don't really get what people mean when they say it has bad typing, because having a resist to both water, electricity, as well as ground means choiced mons are pressured to not lock into their coverage/ stab moves (swanna, evire, komala to name a few). It finds plenty of times in a match to switch in and pop off specs boosted leaf storms to break open teams. Then you have the other options like sun/TR that turns the normal 'sack something and revenge kill it' counter play on its head. Being able to abuse death fodder to become a set up mon to out speed would be revenge killers is huge for it.


185780
(Ghost)
UR --> A-

I have a soft spot for this mon and i'm so happy its back. I think SD is probably the worse of the two sets because of how well special matches up in the meta right now. Ghost is a really nice STAB to have right now as the only normal you'll be running into a lot is komala, which when paired with a free u-turn/parting shot means you're not that annoyed by it. Slap on defog and you have yourself an offensive special ghost (which are super lacking in the meta) who can both spin block in a pinch and grab you momentum. Its also a really decent komala switch in on offense because it alone pressures your opponent to never click your stab return which makes komala MUCH more manageable to deal with. Very cool mon and I'm very happy to have it back.
 
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Hello! This is my first time doing VR noms! And I just wanna make one nom before the before the update so here it is :)

(B- -> C+) With the return of Ghostvally, Missy should obviously drop. And l know other people nommed this already, but I think it should really drop this time. Yes, it can Wisp and Taunt but those factors aren't enough to use it over Ghostvally. It's simply just better offensively. It's also worth noting that Gourgeist-XL completely outclasses it defensively, having reliable recovery and Leech Seed.

Sry if this is a stupid nom :/
 

Tuthur

formerly 0-7 in FCL
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributor
Hello! This is my first time doing VR noms! And I just wanna make one nom before the before the update so here it is :)

(B- -> C+) With the return of Ghostvally, Missy should obviously drop. And l know other people nommed this already, but I think it should really drop this time. Yes, it can Wisp and Taunt but those factors aren't enough to use it over Ghostvally. It's simply just better offensively. It's also worth noting that Gourgeist-XL completely outclasses it defensively, having reliable recovery and Leech Seed.

Sry if this is a stupid nom :/
I disagree with this nom. Ghostvally and Missy might have the same typing, they have completely different role and beat different Pokemon. Ghostvally is either a pivot with U-turn & Defog or a SD sweeper, whereas Misdreavus is a Stallbreaker due to its ability to fit on a same set Taunt + Pain Split, as well as defensive utility with Will-O-Wisp which gives it a strong STAB move in Hex. Misdreavus is able to shut up most defensive core without Komala (even if Lickilicky is also a problem, this one doesn't appreciate Missy's Pain Split). Misdreavus completely shut down: Altaria, Shiinotic, Gourgeist-XL, Mareanie, Muk, Defensive Poliwrath, Avalugg, Dusclops, just to name a few, and this consistently through a game. Moreover Misdreavus Ground-immunity allows it to switch into Gabite, Golem and Bouffalant for example (Ghostvally fails to defensively handle all of them). Misdreavus and Ghostvally have different roles and therefore dropping Missy due to Ghostvally's arrival in the tier doesn't make much sense.
Also the comparison with Gourgeist is also a stretch because again they don't do the same thing, because of Missy's access to Taunt and higher speed tier allowing it to beat Vigoroth and Pinsir for example.
 

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