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The ZU Council has voted to suspect test Shiftry after much discussion on the forums and within the council's channel. Sheet version of results
While Shiftry has been a ZU mainstay since the beginning of the generation, it rose to prominence months ago and has been one of the tier's most dominant and influential Pokemon since. As a powerful mixed attacker with access to STAB Knock Off and Leaf Storm, little can comfortable switch into Shiftry. Moreover, Shiftry heavily dictates how revenge killers function in ZU because of its STAB Sucker Punch. Hence, even though Shiftry has a middling Speed stat, it disrupts how revenge killers in ZU function (as they need to be able to take a Sucker Punch or outplay it). In addition, a flexible fourth move slot and access to Swords Dance, Defog, Hurricane/Bounce, Explosion, and other usable moves means Shiftry always has potential to outmaneuver its counterplay.
As noted before, little can reliably switch into Shiftry because it acts as a mixed attacker. Pokemon such as Granbull, Mawile, Silvally-Dark, Silvally-Fighting, and so on can pivot into Knock Off, but are dented by Leaf Storm. Moreover, other Dark-type switch-ins such as Monfenro, Machoke, and Vullaby dislike losing their Eviolite. On the other hand, Leaf Storm switch-ins such as Silvally-Dragon, Rotom-S, Altaria, Firium Z Rapidash, and so forth also take a chunk from Knock Off. Similarly, offensive Shiftry checks usually have to be able to play around Sucker Punch, which means that Pokemon such as Combusken, Silvally-Fighting, Silvally-Dark, Monfenro, WoW Rotom-S, etc who can typically revenge kill or force Shiftry out are more favorable in the current metagame.
What this means for the current metagame is that counterplay to Shiftry centers around being able to pivot into its STABs as well as being able to outplay Sucker Punch. Outside of Shiinotic, little can reliable switch into Shiftry. However, the current metagame has a variety of go-to Shiftry counterplay; pivots such as Silvally-Fighting, Silvally-Dark, Rotom-S (utility or Flyinium Z), and Monferno outspeed Shiftry and resist Sucker Punch or can cripple Shiftry while being able to revenge kill it; offensive Pokemon such as Combusken, Focus Sash Kadabra, Pinsir, Firium Z Rapidash, Normalium Z Leafeon, and Furfrou can either revenge kill Shiftry if healthy enough or beat it 1v1; other bulky Pokemon such as Mawile, Granbull, Z-move Altaria, and Grassium Z Bellossom can pivot into Knock Off or Leaf Storm; and there are also Dark-type switch-ins such as Vullably, Machoke, and Hakamo-o that can check Shiftry (be it less reliable due to having Eviolite). During the course of the suspect it will be vital to consider all this Shiftry counterplay as well as Shiftry's effect on the metagame.
There will be no suspect ladder. Instead, we will use the regular ZU ladder. Anyone who wishes to participate in this suspect test must fulfill the following requirements:
All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! ZU ladder on a new alt with the following format: “ZUSHIFT [nickname]” (example: ZUSHIFT 5gen).
To qualify for voting, you must play a minimum of 30 games on your alt and achieve a minimum of 78 GXE.
The suspect test will last for 14 days, with voting opening on Tuesday the 29th. Please use this thread to discuss your thoughts on Shiftry in the ZU metagame. For any questions regarding the suspect process, please go to our SQSA thread.
I'm disappointed by the lack of activity on this thread. I won't be a hypocrite.
A lot of my thoughts were summed up in this post in the last thread but now that we know it's Shiftry being suspect tested I wanted to reiterate my thoughts on specifically Shiftry and why I think it should be banned.
This won't relate to Swanna, or post-metagame theory, because that's not relevant or the point of this suspect test. The point of this test is to look at Shiftry, decide if it's broken or not, then vote on it. If you're voting no ban because you think Swanna "deserves it more" I hope you reconsider.
- Shiftry has a very limited set of Pokemon that can check it, heavily restricting team building by centralising the metagame around a singular threat.
Most checks are not splashable and only work on specific styles of team (Vullaby on stall, Rotom-Fan on fat balance). This heavily restricts team building by providing users with roughly 3-4 available Shiftry checks after their initial core has been decided, of which 2 are typically necessary to have a reasonably safe matchup.
- Preparing against Shiftry indirectly makes you weaker to similar yet different Pokemon. For example, using Shiinotic or Silvally-Fighting typically means you're reliant on offensive pressure to beat Pokemon like Simisage and Leafeon, who simply blast through both of these Shiftry checks. Shiftry applies massive pressure when team building, somewhat inflating the amount of games that are decided at team preview simply due to a lack of available counterplay to other top Pokemon when attempting to be Shiftry proof.
- Shiftry's counters are either not viable or are forced into using inferior sets/roles.
Silvally runs U-Turn over Parting Shot, despite (generally) being an inferior move. U-Turn still has uses (e.g. hitting Exeggutor), and could be more viable if other situational threats such as Mr. Mime or Soundproof Bouffalant rose to meet it, but I hope we all agree that generally speaking it's a worse move without Shiftry's presence. Many Silvally forms are forced into unviable EV spreads. See: Any Silvally-Poison set ever. Even Silvally-Fighting and Dark forms are often seen running enough speed for Shiftry and the rest gone into HP just to try and tank Leaf Storm better (unsuccessfully).
Mawile, among primary Mawile users, have been running SpDef investment specifically for Shiftry's Leaf Storm and literally no other reason. I see this as mandatory in the current meta.
Rapidash, Leafeon, Rotom-Fan, Altaria are all forced to use Z Crystals, with the latter two literally only using them to take less damage from Shiftry's Knock Off.
The former two use Z-Crystals to great effect, but are generally unviable without the Crystal purely because of Shiftry's presence forcing the additional level of role compression.
Rapidash and Rotom-Fan are also reliant on the use of Flame Body and/or Will-O-Wisp to check Shiftry, as they are otherwise unavailable to sustain the amount of damage Shiftry puts out.
Shiinotic is used far more than Gourgeist-Super despite the latter being considered an A rank mon and the former being B+. Partially theorymon, but Gourgeist-Super on paper is far more viable without the presence of Shiftry mandating Shiinotic's usage on teams where Gourgeist-Super would otherwise suffice as a switchin to physical attackers such as Electivire.
Due to the lack of available checks for stall teams, unviable Pokemon like Vullaby are used. Similarly, otherwise unviable sets such as SpDef Avalugg are used.
Many sets such as Trick Room Beheeyem and Trick Room Exeggutor are, generally speaking, not viable, due to Sucker Punch's presence immediately making them a waste of a teamslot in many games.
Pretty much every fast breaker (Simisear, Simipour, Raichu, Sawsbuck) uses Substitute instead of generally superior coverage options, and while Substitute is useful for other, more situational means (blocking status, setting up on passive Pokemon) it'd be remiss to neglect mentioning that Shiftry is, by and large, the primary reason this move is run on these Pokemon.
I personally feel that Shiftry warps the tier to an unhealthy degree by limiting building, indirectly hampering the viability of roughly half the generally-accepted as viable Pokemon in the tier due to Sucker Punch and Knock Off, promoting inferior sets and spreads that are used specifically for Shiftry, and even beating a huge chunk of its checks with absolutely no set innovation required (Rapidash can't switch in if Stealth Rock is up, has to play 50/50s in a best case scenario if Flame Body doesn't activate, Leafeon is forced into a 50/50 if Shiftry is a Swords Dance variant, Silvally-Dark and Fighting can only afford to tank Leaf Storm once).
At this point in time I want to note some of the Anti-Ban arguments I've seen, using the only recent available discussion; this post from Celever.
(paraphrased) Shiinotic, Gourgeist-Super and Leafeon are all viable outside of checking Shiftry.
I would argue that Shiinotic is still largely eclipsed by Gourgeist-Super and is only anywhere near as good as it is because of Shiftry. Would it be viable? Yes. Is Shiftry singlehandedly taking it upwards of an entire tier of viability? Also yes. STAB Moonblast is not particularly sought after nor is it an especially good move, and Spore is really the only benefit it offers when you consider that Gourgeist-Super is typically not being Pursuit trapped by Silvally-Dark or Pawniard thanks to Will-O-Wisp.
Leafeon may not only be viable because of Shiftry, but I'd argue its current set is the only viable set to run on Leafeon because Shiftry's existence makes any other set unviable, as stated earlier in this post. Leafeon also doesn't consistently beat Shiftry as mentioned earlier, and can't afford to run Knock Off in the current meta without becoming reliant on its Z Move to actually sometimes beat Shiftry.
Shiftry is not in a situation like Rotom-Freeze was where trashmons like Chinchou and Seaking were seeing use because nothing that would ordinarily be viable could reliably deal with it.
You've already noted that Vullaby and Zweilous are in use earlier in your post and implied they were unviable. While it's not right to say these are the only checks to Shiftry, I think it's fair to say that these are the only checks available to certain archetypes, notably stall, alongside similarly unviable Pokemon such as SpDef Avalugg.
I don't see how Shiftry is any different to Combusken in its effect on ZU, or Greninja in OU, or Eelektross in PU. They're all extremely influential, but can be dealt with through either better play, better teambuilding, or a combination of both. A Pokémon is broken or centralising when that's not the case, as per the tiering policy.
To reiterate my earlier points, Shiftry's checks are largely outclassed by better sets, if not better Pokemon, and are all easily pressured and abused by a well played Shiftry. Shiftry's influence is not anywhere near comparable to the other Pokemon you mentioned due to an inability to consistently defensively check it over the course of a game, and lack of offensive counterplay outside of Kadabra and Furfrou, neither of which can switch in.
At this point, I do want to take a minute to thank Celever for providing his thoughts on Shiftry, and at the same time take this as an opportunity to call out some people to hopefully make this thread a little less dead and provide the people who later meet the suspect requirements with a better understanding of both the ban and anti-ban arguments. I hope anyone who wants to make a post on either side does so, in order to foster discussion and give people who are presently unsure of what to vote some arguments to convince them.
I've seen all four of you make anti-ban statements, but most of them have been throwaway one liners or responses to individual points (e.g. "ban swanna instead", "meta has adapted", "shiftry is unreliable"). You're an exception here Ho3n but you haven't made a post responding to any ban arguments since the 27th of September, so I'd like to see your opinions on some of the arguments that were presented after your post.
I would like to ask you four, in addition to Celever, the following questions:
- Do you see meta adaptations such as Firium Altaria, SpDef Mawile, SpDef Avalugg and Substitute Raichu as reasonable and healthy meta development? How so?
- Do you think that Shiftry constrains team building for balance teams, by forcing the use of two Pokemon that either naturally resist Dark (Mawile, Silvally-Dark/Fighting, Monferno) or are holding a Z Crystal (Rapidash, Rotom-Fan, Altaria)? How so?
- Do you believe any other (non banworthy) Pokemon in ZU has this level of influence on the tier? How so?
- Do you think that Shiftry constains team building for stall teams by forcing a slot almost entirely dedicated to the mon, in Vullaby, SpDef Avalugg, or Rest SpDef Mawile/Silvally-Dark? How so?
- Do you have any other statements or anti-ban arguments you'd like to put forward for discussion?
- Do you see meta adaptations such as Firium Altaria, SpDef Mawile, SpDef Avalugg and Substitute Raichu as reasonable and healthy meta development? How so?
- Do you think that Shiftry constrains team building for balance teams, by forcing the use of two Pokemon that either naturally resist Dark (Mawile, Silvally-Dark/Fighting, Monferno) or are holding a Z Crystal (Rapidash, Rotom-Fan, Altaria)? How so?
- Do you believe any other (non banworthy) Pokemon in ZU has this level of influence on the tier? How so?
- Do you think that Shiftry constains team building for stall teams by forcing a slot almost entirely dedicated to the mon, in Vullaby, SpDef Avalugg, or Rest SpDef Mawile/Silvally-Dark? How so?
- Do you have any other statements or anti-ban arguments you'd like to put forward for discussion?
As uhu pointed out, the meta has adaptions that are meant specifically and primarily to check Shiftry. This, in combination with a handful of already viable mons in the meta is perfectly reasonable.
Having an S tier mon in the meta is going to warrant this kind of adaptation and reasonable centralization. There exists Shiftry checks that are bona fide sets by themselves (Silvally-Fight, Silvally-Dark, Combsuken, Bellossum, ect.), sets that have a move or item change that is meant for Shiftry (Sub NP Raichu, Sub on the NP Simi sets, Firium Alt, ect), and then extra niche mons that only have an ounce of viability by checking top tiers (Vullaby, Zwei, and I'll throw Monferno here too cause it's waning in viability as well imo).
Why is this wrong? The ZU metagame has multiple adaptations to check or deal with Shift in its own ways. Teambuilding needs to be centered around Shift, and that is totally okay and expected. Centralization will always be top heavy, and this includes teams needing to have specific answers to not only LO Shiftry, but mons like Scarf Vire, SD Firium Z Combusk, both phys and special Z move Swanna, and SR Golem. These are some of the most centralizing sets in the tier, and are arguably just as intrinsic to the ZU meta as LO Shift is. Scarf Vire just fits and competes above any other scarfer, Golem is an incredible rocker, and Combusk and Swanna are both ridiculous sweepers and potential WBs.
My point is that centralization of all kinds is already happening in the ZU meta, showing that these adaptions are natural and not unwarranted. Mons like Metang now run Tpunch to be an all-round Swanna check, and playstyles like stall enjoy using the nearly unranked Hippopatas as a check to Vire that has immediate recovery. Not to mention that a ton of defensive mons run enough speed EVs to reach at least 190 so they can outspeed offensive Golem (Slash, Komala, Bouf, ect). This centralization is natural and not a horrible thing, as it allows for unique sets or mons to have a chance in the spotlight as their niche is established by these top tiers. Thus the varying levels Shift adaptation across the meta is perfectly acceptable and understood.
I'll acknowledge the specifics about these MUs that pro-ban Shift players believe make it overwhelming. While these checks can work when healthy and full, Shift has the tools to weaken and threaten them consistently through the game. But this is the nature of the beast; it is a frail, middle-speed WB that has a conditional priority stab. There's not that much variability to how you handle Shift, a player only needs to suspect that its Mixed LO Shift to play well against it. If it is a bait set of some sort (NP sets, SD flyium Z sets, ect), then Shiftry is so much easier to deal with, as these sets are victim to a lack over overarching power and coverage that the mixed LO set has. Regardless, both building and playing around Shift has always been an aspect of the ZU meta that has never been broken, as players can expect the same set and find their ways around it in play.
Lastly, Knock Off is apart of the game. Shiftry is the best abuser of it in ZU, and outside of Pawn it is also the only viable offensive STAB user of it. Dark types in all tiers have this luxury to abuse Knock Off, and I'd argue that in a tier filled with Eviolite users that a strong Knock Off user is totally needed. Stall has an incredible win rate, largely due to Evio tanks like Dusc and Hippo, and mons like Liki keeping their Lefties for protect. Having a dedicated Knock absorber that also checks Shift is a straight forward role compression that makes Shift relatively useless against stall in a lot of games. No need, then, to think that it's unhealthy for stall teams have Firium Alt / Silvally forms to check Shift when they need a Knock absorber anyways.
I don't want to rehash much of what I had already stated here, so I'll keep this post sort as is. Do not ban Shift, ZU's premier Knock Off sweeper all of gen 7, as it is just another centralizing top tier that players have always had to build and play against.
Having an S tier mon in the meta is going to warrant this kind of adaptation and reasonable centralization. There exists Shiftry checks that are bona fide sets by themselves (Silvally-Fight, Silvally-Dark, Combsuken, Bellossum, ect.), sets that have a move or item change that is meant for Shiftry (Sub NP Raichu, Sub on the NP Simi sets, Firium Alt, ect), and then extra niche mons that only have an ounce of viability by checking top tiers (Vullaby, Zwei, and I'll throw Monferno here too cause it's waning in viability as well imo).
4 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Silvally-Fighting: 175-207 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- 77% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Silvally-Dark: 175-207 (52.8 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Silvally-Fighting: 129-152 (32.7 - 38.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Dark: 142-168 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
If Silvally takes a Leaf Storm from Shiftry, he becomes unable in the future to take a Sucker Punch at +2. Even Silvally's most bulky spreads lose after chip damage.
4 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Combusken: 125-148 (47.8 - 56.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Combusken: 103-121 (39.4 - 46.3%) -- 29.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Combusken: 95-113 (36.3 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Combusken isn't a Shiftry check. It can only switch in once to any Shiftry move and is forced to use Protect because it is slower than Shiftry. Also note that once you took a Leaf Storm from Shiftry, you're in range of Sucker Punch i.e. if Combusken switch in onto Leaf Storm it loses to Shiftry (bar incredibly well played Sucker mindgame).
4 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mawile: 135-160 (44.4 - 52.6%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Mawile is quickly worn down by Shiftry's Leaf Storm and is forced to use (and run) Pain Split if it wants to be able to check Shiftry latter in the game. Also Mawile needs to run Play Rough to directly threaten Shiftry. So Mawile to be able to consistently check Shiftry needs to run 2 moves when it already has a big 4mss with Knock Off/Seismic Toss/Super Fang/Toxic/Taunt.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bellossom: 263-309 (74.2 - 87.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
Great Shiftry check that loses to it after 2 SR rounds. So to check Shiftry it needs to consistently click Strength Sap if it takes any damage, and to run Moonblast (which means no Safeguard/Sub) because otherwise Shiftry set up on it.
252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jumpluff: 169-200 (58 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Jumpluff takes a lot of damage from Koff, so this means it needs to consistently use Strength Sap not to lose to Shiftry. Also it can still lose to SD Shiftry if it SD on the Strength Sap and then win the Sucker/Koff 50/50.
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jumpluff: 253-300 (86.9 - 103%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jumpluff: 274-324 (94.1 - 111.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Encore Jumpluff is however pretty safe against Shiftry, but if the Shiftry teams has a Pokemon with low Attack (Bronzor or Fantom) or a Sap Sipper user (Bouff or Zeb), Jumpluff is unable to deal with Shiftry on the long run since its recovery will be easily blocked.
While Hakamo-o takes only little damage from Shiftry, it doesn't OHKO with Drain Punch and loses its Eviolite making it far less reliable to check anything else. Also note that Hakamo-o needs Rest-Talk to be able to deal with Shiftry in the long run, because it gets easily worn down once its Evio gets removed by Shiftry. (Also Flyinium Z demolishes it, but that's the point of a lure)
Similar to Hakamo-o at the difference that it always OHKOes Shiftry, but once its Evio is Knocked off:
4 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Machoke: 379-447 (104.1 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns
252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rapidash: 169-200 (62.3 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Wow, incredible Shiftry check that can only come once if it doesn't burn with Flame Body. Typical scenario is: Rapidash takes 90% from SR+Koff, Shiftry switches out on the Morning Sun to something that threatens Rap, Rap switches out at 50% health and can't even come on Leaf Storm.
252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Leafeon: 101-121 (37.2 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Leafeon: 218-257 (80.4 - 94.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Just like Bellossom, Leafeon needs to be at full health to handle Shiftry and doesn't appreciate to switch repetively into Koff since Leafeon is forced to Synthesis and then loses momentum.
252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Fan: 121-142 (39.9 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
While it can always force out Shiftry with WoW, Rotom-Fan can only switch once into Shiftry after minimal chips and doesn't have recovery and is weak to SR. Also it's really suboptimal to give the Z-Crystal to a defensive mon. This deprives the team of a powerful nuke.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Altaria: 230-270 (64.9 - 76.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Just like Fantom, it's suboptimal to run a Z move on a defensive mon. But also Altaria can't burn Shiftry is forced to use its Z-move and therefore can lose to Sucker Punch after SR and some chips (like a Vally U-turn). Also Altaria is a total momentum drain and can only fit in few teams.
Running Substitute on fast Pokemon just to deal with Shiftry is a clear sign of Shiftry's unhealthyness. Simipour and Simisear already have a 4mss to deal with Mareanie, Altaria, Pyukumuku, Lickilicky, ... While Simisage and Raichu can afford to run Substitute without to much issues (even if they become far worse in every other mu), they can't use a Life Orb which they both appreciate (especially since the z-slot is often used to handle Shiftry) and struggles a lot more to accomplish wallbreak. Also running Substitute doesn't mean that Shiftry will lose to them, since it can predict the Sub and break it with Knock Off.
Shiinotic completely walls Shiftry unless Z-Hurricane / Z-Bounce / Explosion. However Shiinotic is an extreme mediocre Pokemon on its own, largely outclassed by Gourgeist-XL in every non-Shiftry MU. It is a ground check that can lose to Golem, an electric check that loses to every Electric-type that isn't Scarf Electivire (and which has a small chance to 2hko after SR with Ice Punch). Sure it has access to 2 incredible moves in Spore and Strength Sap but they can both be easily punished by Bronzor, Bouffalant or Komala depending on the move. If Shiftry wasn't in the tier Shiinotic would be ranked at something like C-/UU.
I know these Vallies get some fans. While they are not bad, they are terrible in comparison to the other Vallies. Running one of them limits a lot the teambuilding options for the rest of the team, and as a result aren't Pokemon you can easily slap into your team.
I put both together because they have the same problem. They are Eviolite-reliant defensive Pokemon that checks Knock Off users and are SR weak. Vullaby on paper is an incredible switch in to both Shiftry and Exeggutor, until you realize it needs SpD invest to deal with Specs Eggy and Def invest to deal with Shiftry. But in reality both just use Roost every time they come onto the field because they take 25% from SR + 30% from a resisted move and therefore are completely momentum drain. I lost several time to Shiftry with Togetic or Vullaby because it Knocked out my Eviolite and I was unable to recover all the damage it took.
While it's not as bad as the two previous Pokemon, Monferno doesn't check much outside of Shiftry. While it used to check Top 10 Titan Abomasnow and Beartic, it now is only used to check Shiftry and the growing in popularity Glaceon, which makes it a poor choice as a defensive Pokemon and limits a lot teambuilding.
I thought that Zweilous was ranked for its incredible Band set, but no it is ranked for its SpD set...
Ok so while it can handle both Eggy and Shiftry, this mon incredibly sucks. It's very hard to put on your team a Dragon-type that loses to Combusken, and a defensive Pokemon that offers nothing (i.e. no hazard, no hazard removal, no momentum, no cleric). Zweilous relies on a 72% accuracy Dragon Tail to deal with Shiftry (which does less than half to Shiftry btw) and on RestTalk to consistently be at enough health.
Outside of one Kay team, SpD Zweilous has never seen uses due to being far to niche to use and I'd rather use SpD Chinchou for Swanna than this.
Now let's compare to Swanna the other S-rank in ZU:
Mareanie is very good Pokemon on its own. It beats other threats such as Combusken, Muk, Vigoroth and Floatzel. It brings also a lot of utility thanks to Scald, Knock Off, Haze, and T-Spikes, while having reliable recovery in Recover+Regenerator.
Silvally-Water used to be the most popular Silvally in the tier. While now it doesn't see much uses (mainly due to Shiftry), it can check several Pokemon such as our Fire/Water type as well as Glaceon. It also brings utility with U-turn and Defog.
Pyukumuku only really fits on stall and some fat balance, but it can deal with every Swanna set as well as deal with 90% of our physical attackers.
While these Pokemon are rather niche, they can deal with every Swanna set and have access to reliable recovery and Stealth Rock. But unlike the niche mon we use to deal with Shiftry, they can also deal with other threats. Cradily deals with most most Normal type and Ground type as well as a lot of Water-types. Whereas Corsola deals with almost every Normal-type and is extremely hard to wear down due to Regenerator.
This may seems like a short list of Pokemon that can effectively deal with Swanna. However there are differences between both:
1) Swanna doesn't force you to use dedicated set/unmon to deal with it.
2) You can pressure Swanna with faster Pokemon because Swanna's Aqua Jet isn't stupidly strong unlike Shiftry's Sucker Punch, also while Swanna is fast there are several other Pokemon that are faster than it and don't fear Jet: all our Scarfers, Simipour, Simisage, Floatzel, Jumpluff, Purugly, Raichu, Furfrou and Zebstrika.
3) While there are only few counter to every Swanna sets, each set has several viable checks. Z-Rain Dance fails to break most Special Walls (Licki, Clops, Kec, Muk) and Z-MM lacks Roost which means it can't switch in as much as other sets and struggles against several physical walls (Mawile, Metang, Granbull).
4) Shiftry is far more dangerous before it boosts, and 1) doesn't need to set up to be an extremely dangerous wallbreaker 2) it gives Shiftry more set up opportunity, as it forces a lot of Pokemon out.
Why is this wrong? The ZU metagame has multiple adaptations to check or deal with Shift in its own ways. Teambuilding needs to be centered around Shift, and that is totally okay and expected. Centralization will always be top heavy, and this includes teams needing to have specific answers to not only LO Shiftry, but mons like Scarf Vire, SD Firium Z Combusk, both phys and special Z move Swanna, and SR Golem. These are some of the most centralizing sets in the tier, and are arguably just as intrinsic to the ZU meta as LO Shift is. Scarf Vire just fits and competes above any other scarfer, Golem is an incredible rocker, and Combusk and Swanna are both ridiculous sweepers and potential WBs.
The big difference between Shiftry and the other Pokemon that you mentionned is that it doesn't share reliable checks with the other Pokemon that you mentionned. Sandslash checks both Vire, Golem and Physical Busken; Gourg walls Vire and Golem; Mareanie walls Swanna and Busken; Vibrava walls Golem and Combusken; Cradily walls Golem, Vire and Swanna, ...
Whereas you need a dedicated switch in to Shiftry, because as I stated above, it weakens to much all this checks (outside maybe PoisonVally and Shiinotic). You may ask me, then: "Why don't lose all the teams to Shiftry + any other potent wallbreaker?"
The answer is that they lose most of the time, because Shiftry+Combusken and Shiftry+Swanna are deadly offensive core. But another way to deal with Shiftry+other dangerous wallbreaker is to pack 3 or 4 Pokemon that can pressure Shiftry and dissuade it from setting up. Most teams pack several of the checks I stated above, because one Shiftry check isn't enough. This isn't the case with the other Pokemon you stated above, if I have a Mareanie I don't need anything else for Combusken, and if I have a Sandslash I don't need anything else for Electivire. Whereas for Shiftry, unless you're running Shiinotic you can't say I'm fine with Shiftry.
My point is that centralization of all kinds is already happening in the ZU meta, showing that these adaptions are natural and not unwarranted. Mons like Metang now run Tpunch to be an all-round Swanna check, and playstyles like stall enjoy using the nearly unranked Hippopatas as a check to Vire that has immediate recovery. Not to mention that a ton of defensive mons run enough speed EVs to reach at least 190 so they can outspeed offensive Golem (Slash, Komala, Bouf, ect). This centralization is natural and not a horrible thing, as it allows for unique sets or mons to have a chance in the spotlight as their niche is established by these top tiers. Thus the varying levels Shift adaptation across the meta is perfectly acceptable and understood.
While I agree that T-Punch Metang is overcentralization (though Metang without T-Punch is a perfectly viable set), I disagree with the rest of the paragraph. Hippopotas isn't just a check to Evire, Hippopotas brings stall an Electric immunity with reliable recovery that isn't, unlike Vibrava, OHKOed by Electivire Ice Punch. Blocking Volt Switch is very important for stall, as Dusclops/Lugg/Lickilicky don't appreciate to get chipped by Volt Switch in range of wallbreakers such as the Simisage and Marowak. Hippopotas also provide stall SR and phazing, a check to the very threatening Raichu and Rampardos. About the 190 benchmark, it is fine adaptation just like the 260 benchmark for Shiftry. What isn't fine adaptation is running Unmons or sacrificing Z-slot and moveslot not to lose to Shiftry. Let's me explain myself. While ~100 EVs isn't nothing to overlook, it doesn't fundamentaly makes the Pokemon far worse in other mu. Running Shiinotic over Gourg makes your team far weaker to Bouffalant or Mala, running a Z-move on Altaria or Fantom removes the passive recovery from Leftovers that SR weak Pokemon need, running Substitute over Taunt on Simisear makes it lose to Pyukumuku and Mareanie. Whereas having 96 EVs less in Def doesn't make your Sandslash suddently unable to wall Electivire or Raichu. (Though losing 136 EVs in bulk makes Silvally-Water far less reliable at checking the Swann).
I'll acknowledge the specifics about these MUs that pro-ban Shift players believe make it overwhelming. While these checks can work when healthy and full, Shift has the tools to weaken and threaten them consistently through the game. But this is the nature of the beast; it is a frail, middle-speed WB that has a conditional priority stab. There's not that much variability to how you handle Shift, a player only needs to suspect that its Mixed LO Shift to play well against it. If it is a bait set of some sort (NP sets, SD flyium Z sets, ect), then Shiftry is so much easier to deal with, as these sets are victim to a lack over overarching power and coverage that the mixed LO set has. Regardless, both building and playing around Shift has always been an aspect of the ZU meta that has never been broken, as players can expect the same set and find their ways around it in play.
Lastly, Knock Off is apart of the game. Shiftry is the best abuser of it in ZU, and outside of Pawn it is also the only viable offensive STAB user of it. Dark types in all tiers have this luxury to abuse Knock Off, and I'd argue that in a tier filled with Eviolite users that a strong Knock Off user is totally needed. Stall has an incredible win rate, largely due to Evio tanks like Dusc and Hippo, and mons like Liki keeping their Lefties for protect. Having a dedicated Knock absorber that also checks Shift is a straight forward role compression that makes Shift relatively useless against stall in a lot of games. No need, then, to think that it's unhealthy for stall teams have Firium Alt / Silvally forms to check Shift when they need a Knock absorber anyways.
Ok so here is were you I disagree the most with you, because you go against Smogon policy. If I understand well what you mean, you said that we need Shiftry because Eviolite mon are to bulky; i.e. Broken check Broken.
This should never be an argument, if Shiftry gets banned and Dusclops, Hippopotas or Bronzor is to fat to break then we will suspect the Pokemon in question. Also Shiftry is far from the sole Knock Off users in the tier. 2 other Pokemon from S to B- use it as a STAB move: Kecleon and Pawniard. Moreover several offensive Pokemon uses it as coverage move: Komala, Marowak, Simisage, Simipour, Purugly, Simisear, Toucannon and Crustle. Furthermore several support/defensive Pokemon also uses it as a support move: Sandslash, Mareanie, Lickilicky, Servine, Shuckle and Mawile. Knock Off is part of the game, but Shiftry is the only Pokemon in ZU to have a so stupidly strong Knock Off. This is a Shiftry suspect, not a Knock Off one. If you believe that Knock Off is the only reason why we suspect Shiftry, you miss other broken aspect such as its stupidly high Atk paired with a powerful priority and a high enough SpA to dismantle its checks with Leaf Storm. And now, ZU needs a Knock Off absorber because Shiftry's Knock Off are to strong, otherwise it will be completely fine to only rely on something physically defensive such as Mawile or Torterra.
As much as I liked the initial part of your post, I think it's disingenuous to suggest that Swanna doesn't also bypass a lot of its checks; Mareanie, for example, dies to Hurricane into Z-Hurricane, and Silvally-Water is the same but with absolutely no recovery. I also think Jumpluff is a pretty consistent check to Shiftry's mixed LO set when you ignore the potential "out" Shiftry has by making 3 50/50s.
That said, I also think Swanna is broken right now, which is why in my initial post I advised against taking a "Ban Swanna instead" stance; This isn't Swanna vs Shiftry, or a Swanna suspect. It's a Shiftry suspect. I do, however, want to distinguish between Shiftry and other threats - I'll briefly cover Swanna because I think it's kinda necessary now that we've gotten this far into the Swanna vs Shiftry arguments, but like I said before I don't want to focus on this for too long because even if I think Shiftry is more unhealthy than Swanna I also think both are in this current meta.
Swanna's Z-MM set is consistently checked by Mareanie, as it can Haze away the +2 boost and basically eliminate any chance Swanna has of cleaning. It can die to Brave Bird into Z-Brave Bird, but much like the arguments against Z-Bounce/Z-Hurricane Shiftry, Swanna becomes far less of a threat in general at this point. Z-Hurricane is far scarier for Mareanie, but it's important to note that this is Swanna taking on a breaker playstyle; it's not cleaning late game, it's probably being forced out very easily after doing damage. It has to sacrifice the late-game pressure that Z-MM can put out and doing heavy damage to things like Mareanie is kinda the point of the Z-Hurricane set over Z-MM; you're using it to weaken and break defensive walls so that something else can clean. This is similar to Shiftry's lure set, which I hope we can agree isn't particularly ban-worthy. Comparatively, Shiftry doesn't really sacrifice anything to break past most of its checks. Obviously you can't beat Shiinotic and have a harder time against Silvally-Fighting without Z-Bounce/Hurricane but overall Shiftry doesn't have to use a Z item or otherwise sacrifice its strength in order to break past its checks, because its STAB moves do enough. This isn't necessarily to say Swanna's sets are healthy, but Swanna definitely has to invest more to break its checks than Shiftry does, in that Shiftry just gives up the equivalent of 44% of its health (Two rounds of rocks and LO recoil)
Like Tuthur says, a lot of checks to other mons are generally good; to quote him verbatim, "Sandslash checks both Vire, Golem and Physical Busken; Gourg walls Vire and Golem; Mareanie walls Swanna and Busken; Vibrava walls Golem and Combusken". While this is somewhat true of Shiftry's better checks (Mawile is a solid normal resist, Silv Dark is a great Bronzor trapper) I think it's important to note that there are big differences here in sustainability. Vibrava, for example, can take on both Golem and Combusken in a match and generally speaking it does that job alone. Sandslash, assuming it's the pinch berry set (which imo it should be), can tank hits from both Golem and Electivire. Outside of Toxic from Defensive Golem or Flamethrower from a suprise Belt Electivire, Gourgeist-Super can continually switch into Electivire and Golem as much as it wants. Shiftry checks, however, are just Shiftry checks. If you're using Mawile as your Shiftry check, it's going to take too much to also stop Komala spamming Return. Rotom-Fan is unable to reliably check Swanna unless it's pinch berry, which obviously doesn't handle Shiftry particularly well. If Silvally-Fighting takes a Leaf Storm, it's not checking anything it wants to blanket check (Golem, Crustle, Scarfvally). Silvally-Dark has to play 50/50s with Pursuit/Multi-Attack vs Bronzor, as Shiftry is chipping it into range of Bronzor's Toxic damage if it guesses wrong. If you face a Shiftry, you're accepting that your Pokemon's role in that game is purely to check Shiftry and it's likely going to die in the process of doing this.
To sum up, the reward you gain from using Shiftry is far too high compared to the amount you have to give up in the builder (i.e. not much).
Similarly, the amount of investment you have to put into your team to have a solid Shiftry matchup is far too large, as I hope the following paragraph demonstrates.
Now that we know the core disagreement here, that being: "counterplay to Shiftry is/isn't too strict" I want to clarify where I stand a bit more.
In my opinion, there are forms of healthy counterplay. Speed creeping is generally fine; you only invest as much as you need to and it typically covers other Pokemon; creeping Golem also means you creep Metang, SpDef Komala and Lickilicky for example, all of which are things you want to outspeed as something like SubSD Bouff. Health counterplay includes Silvally forms creeping Shiftry, and in retrospect I should've kept my argument tighter by not including that.
Move adaptation is usually fine counterplay; Ice Beam on Silvally-Fighting for Torterra, Rotom-Fan and Altaria. HP Electric on Combusken for Swanna and Mareanie all allow these Pokemon to bypass traditional defensive checks.
I think Shiftry's counterplay is different in that instead of simply replacing one move, you're reliant on both item and move choice to defensively check Shiftry, as opposed to standard adaptation in the form of offensive coverage breaking past checks. For example, Leafeon has to be Z-Double-Edge and Synthesis. Rotom-Fan has to be Z-Air Slash and Will-O-Wisp. Altaria has to be Z-Flamethrower, and typically has to actually use the Z-Move to beat Shiftry. This is extremely limiting for all of these Pokemon, in comparison to, say, HP Ice Combusken breaking past Altaria, a mon it can otherwise break past with good team synergy/in-game play, or Sandslash running Knock Off to pressure Bronzor. These are also to only situationally check Shiftry; as Tuthur covered, most of these are still not reliable counterplay even after dedicating almost their entire set to beating Shiftry.
The only other cases off the top of my head where you need to invest this much just to defensively check a Pokemon are Probopass checking Bronzor (which, subjectively I think is just evidence of Probo being garbage) and Corsola beating Swanna (which is arguably also kinda broken and more importantly actually allows Corsola to hard-counter Swanna, something no adapted Shiftry check can boast.)
In short, no Pokemon puts as much strain on the meta as Shiftry does, and this hampers building far more than you see at face value.
Ok so here is were you I disagree the most with you, because you go against Smogon policy. If I understand well what you mean, you said that we need Shiftry because Eviolite mon are to bulky; i.e. Broken check Broken.
I don't think they necessarily do. The Pokemon stall uses to check Shiftry are "Knock Off absorbers" coincidentally, as these are generally speaking the only stall-viable Pokemon that actually stop Shiftry defensively. I'll admit I'm not a stall enthusiast, but you don't want a "knock off absorber" for Kecleon or Komala, and if you do it's not going to be a Silvally-Dark or Altaria, or just something running a Z item; you're going to be using defensive checks to these Pokemon that don't particularly care about losing their item, not ones that have a Z move to avoid it. You'll be using Avalugg or Gourgeist-Super for Komala, not a Firium Altaria or Flyinium Rotom-Fan. If anything, Z moves are better used on things like Lickilicky and Pyukumuku to block Trick. "Knock Off absorber" is not a role you need on stall, "Shiftry check" is.
To everybody: This suspect is regarding Shiftry, and whether or not Shiftry should be allowed in the ZU tier. Stop bringing up Swanna unnecessarily, as it being broken/not broken has little to no impact on the Shiftry suspect test. Swanna can be addressed in a subsequent test.
I'm barely qualified to have an opinion but I'm gonna throw in my 2 cents.
Shiftry pairs up fantastically with many mons to form offensive cores in balance and bulky offense builds that have no more than 3 offensive and speedy EV spreads to help these teams get past the many eviolite walls of the tier that would otherwise stall the entire team to death. It's also an awesome offensive emergency defogger on hyper offense, allowing these teams to pack hazard control without losing any offensive prowess as the mixed set without SD can still break and even sweep. Shiftry is one of the main reason offense is so favored right now. No mon can do exactly what the mixed set with defog does. Simisage comes close but it has no hazard control and priority. HO will miss it dearly.
Without Shiftry, Bronzor and Mareanie (often used together) are going to be a lot stronger. They aren't exactly weak right now as people complete the core with a Knock Off absorbing Shiftry answer. Balance and stall will enjoy it gone as other Knock Off users have the move as a non stab coverage and don't apply the same crazy pressure on the Knock Off absorbing mon. If you enjoy offense and dislike facing stall, you'll hate to see Shiftry go. Meta is gonna be a bit less offensive. People will have a slot freed up on their teams to prep against Combusken/Rapidash as well as maybe somewhat of a Swanna blanket check.
Will Shiftry being gone make team building more free? Absolutely. Shiftry is unique for an S Ranker that it requires dedicated answers that take up another team slot besides the usual PhyDef mon or otherwise you'd just have shaky checks. If I were to make a balance/bulky offense build I'd have the defensive core figured out quickly since there are only so many options. Either you run a Mawile or Shiinotic (which then need to be coupled with a Combusken/Rapidash answer) or you can run a Silvally form as a shaky check (which most people do since they provide utility and momentum). I consider slapping on awkward Z moves to be in the realm of preparing for Shiftry but weakening the entire team vs the rest of the tier. Some call it adapting, I call it unhealthy team building restriction. Either way, you need a separate mon besides your general physical bulk mon because of Leaf Storm. Well, that's the point of mixed attackers. At least you can then revenge kill them. But Sucker punch makes that much more painful as fast mons are frail. Fellow ZU S Ranker Swanna has a much weaker priority if at all and thus can be better offensively handled. Let's take NU's Incineroar for example. It like Shiftry has a brutal Knock Off but at least you can revenge kill it like any other breaker. Shiftry's combination of stab KO, mixed offense and priority makes it more dominant and team building restricting than any other S Ranker. Without it many more team combinations could be fielded despite many offensive mons missing their best partner.
But does it mean that Shiftry should be banned? I haven't made up my mind yet. Many people here know much more than I do. On one hand I'm tired of putting Fight-Vally on every bulky offense team and would like to have more freedom building. On the other I detest the 2 tumors called Mareanie and Pyukumuku and Shiftry just happens to break both of them.
But does it mean that Shiftry should be banned? I haven't made up my mind yet. Many people here know much more than I do. On one hand I'm tired of putting Fight-Vally on every bulky offense team and would like to have more freedom building. On the other I detest the 2 tumors called Mareanie and Pyukumuku and Shiftry just happens to break both of them.
I get where you're coming from, and there's absolutely no way to prevent you from voting using whatever personal beliefs you have, but Smogon policy has always been "Don't vote based off what you think the future meta will be like". There's far too much theorymon involved.
I could argue that without Shiftry's presence fast, frail sweepers like Raichu and Simipour would be more viable, fatter set-up sweepers like Vigoroth and Duosion would be more reliable etc. all of which are arguably better answers to stall teams and I've aired these thoughts in the past on Showdown and on Discord, but it's all theorymon in the end and we have no idea what specifically becomes better or worse. All we have are a few vague expectations like "anti-Shiftry sets will probably be worse" and "things that Shiftry pressures will probably be better" with no clear ideas on A: what those changes really are and B: how the meta might adapt to those changes.
If stall truly became too broken in a post-Shiftry meta, it'd be looked at by council. If you think "these mons might be more annoying" then hey, yeah, maybe, but maybe not; there's far too many elements that make dissecting a future meta near impossible, which is why voting in such a way is heavily discouraged.
I get where you're coming from, and there's absolutely no way to prevent you from voting using whatever personal beliefs you have, but Smogon policy has always been "Don't vote based off what you think the future meta will be like". There's far too much theorymon involved.
I could argue that without Shiftry's presence fast, frail sweepers like Raichu and Simipour would be more viable, fatter set-up sweepers like Vigoroth and Duosion would be more reliable etc. all of which are arguably better answers to stall teams and I've aired these thoughts in the past on Showdown and on Discord, but it's all theorymon in the end and we have no idea what specifically becomes better or worse. All we have are a few vague expectations like "anti-Shiftry sets will probably be worse" and "things that Shiftry pressures will probably be better" with no clear ideas on A: what those changes really are and B: how the meta might adapt to those changes.
If stall truly became too broken in a post-Shiftry meta, it'd be looked at by council. If you think "these mons might be more annoying" then hey, yeah, maybe, but maybe not; there's far too many elements that make dissecting a future meta near impossible, which is why voting in such a way is heavily discouraged.
I just wanna "defend" Predator145 a bit here. There's a difference between saying "Okay, Shiftry does job a and job b. And 'mons who do both a and b are kinda limited. So taking it away limits these options even more" and saying "With Shiftry gone, Dusclops and Pyukumuku will get better, which makes stall overly powerful". The first statement is objectively correct, no speculation involved, while the second is impossible to prove. I'm not disagreeing with what you said, and I'm also not overly familiar with tiering policy. But I think this is an important distinction. Feel free to correct me if the first statement is also something that shouldn't be part of ones consideration when contemplating ban vs no ban.
I won't make it to get the reqs for the suspect, but I want to share my thoughts on Shiftry. Hope you enjoy :)
Before the suspect test, I was pretty sure that Shiftry was not broken enough to be banworthy. But after hearing a lot about the opions of other players, I decided that Shiftry is not a pokemon that is healthy anymore for ZU (if it ever was lol). Let's see why's that.
Shiftry does have counters, the most prominent being Shiinotic, Vally Fighting-Dark-Poison and Vullaby. But Shiinotic has 60/80 bulk on the physical side, which even uninvested doesn't hold up to the defensive power of Gourgeist Super and it doesn't have moves like Will-O Wisp to cripple its opponents further. The only reason, why Shiinotic is on the Vr in the first place, is because it checks Shiftry very well. Everything else is outdone by Gourgeist.
Now let's look at the vallys. Sure fighting and dark both resist Knock Off, but they also take a lot of damage from Leaf Storm, which 2KOes them at full health. That means that both of the mons can't switch into Shiftry as often as they would like unlike Shiinotic. Poison does take less from Leaf Storm and can also take Sucker Punch and Knock Off, but only without a boost. After one SD, Shiftry koes Vally Poison easily after SR, crippling it hard. Same goes for Grass btw. And also for Firevally. So overall, Silvally doesn't have what it takes to be a good Shiftry checks, since the latter can easily play around those.
Let's look at Vullaby. It not only reists both of Shiftry's stab attacks, but also the ones from Eggy (Exeggutor). Problem is though, that it relies on its eviolite to be effective and when Shiftry removes the item, Vullaby becomes a lot less useful due to a mdeiocre bulk.
Let me show you what I mean:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vullaby: 134-159 (38.9 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
As you can see, once Shiftry sets up with SD and attacks Vullaby without the eviolite, it becomes a clean 2KO. Leaf Storm only three koes on a special defensive vullaby without evio, but still takes about 30 % from the dark type attacks.
Now let's talk about Shiftry's type combo. Grass Dark is incredibly strong, and apart from Shiinotic, Combusken and Monferno there is no pokemon who can resist both of the stabs at once (at least mons who are viable unlike Marill and Croagunk). Rapidash even runs Morning Sun and sometimes Flame Body, just to play around Shiftry's Sucker Punch. The simis and Raichu mostly run sub as well, to be protected against Sucker. All that, since Sucker Punch with LO does a lot of damage and KOes most of the faster mons after sr.
There are also mons like Monferno and Combusken that resists the type combo, but Combusken is frail and can't mostly survive a 2+ Sucke Punch, unless it is serverly weakened or has an eviolite. Monferno is also reliant on evio and is the only one that can take Shiftry very well, but also suffers when it loses its eviolite. And I already talked about Shiinotic
I have a replay that shows its destructive nature of Shiftry, due to no counter on the opposing team (I know it is Low Ladder, but I just want to show how easily it can take apart entire teams.): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-995107462
For all these reasons I stated above, I believe that Shiftry is way too strong for this tier and should therefore be banned. I apologize if I didn't add anything new that was already stated, but I just wanted to state my own opinion on this suspect. Feel free to disagree with me and answer if you want. I'll say it again participants of the Suspect:
Hey all, got some good discussion on Shiftry in the previous np thread and now, which is nice to see. Time for me to throw my thoughts in.
Before I dive into the ban and no ban arguments as I understand them, I'd like to address some common ground between the two sides:
The metagame has adapted to Shiftry in a multitude of ways and trends
Offensive counterplay focuses on one or more of these things: Pokemon that outspeed Shiftry, resist Sucker Punch, and can KO or force Shiftry out; Pokemon using Substitute to bypass Sucker Punch and then being able to KO and/or force Shiftry out; Pokemon that outspeed Shiftry, survive a Sucker Punch if healthy enough, and KO and/or force Shiftry out; Pokemon that can tank one of Shiftry's STABs and KO back (Pokemon that can trade vs Shiftry if healthy enough); and Pokemon that can outspeed and cripple or force Shiftry out such as WoW Rapidash and Rotom-S
Defensive counterplay typically consists of these things: Shiinotic which counters standard Shiftry; Pokemon that can reliably pivot into Knock Off and can force Shiftry out or maneuver around Knock Off/Sucker Punch; Pokemon that can pivot into Leaf Storm and can maneuver around Shiftry's Dark-type STABs; Pokemon that can switch into Shiftry if healthy and not 2HKOed after Stealth Rock; Pokemon that resist Knock Off or both of Shiftry's STABs but are Eviolite-reliant; and Pokemon that can tank Shiftry's STABs and cripple and/or force it out (i.e 1v1 scenarios such as Colbur Gourgeist-XL that can Wisp Shiftry if healthy or Play Rough Mawile that can live a Leaf Storm)
It is important to note that these forms of counterplay are categories, which means that certain Pokemon will fit into them and not into others. I say this because as players in this metagame it is crucial for us to know the counterplay available in the tier so we can make sound judgments in this suspect. Personally I am not completely sold one way or another, but I am leaning ban and I'll explain why.
Right off the bat I believe that Shiftry is an unhealthy presence; however, to me it is not extremely unhealthy nor totally broken so in my book that is not a reason to want to ban a Pokemon. There is no denying the centralizing effect Shiftry has on ZU's metagame, and it's S-rank which speaks for itself. In my opinion and as I understand it, the fundamental point that separates ban and no ban users is if the metagame adaptations to Shiftry are too much. On the one hand, you have people that believe these adaptations are natural due to Shiftry being S-rank and because of that, the metagame is adequately prepared to handle Shiftry. On the other hand, you have people that argue the opposite; that these adaptations are actually overbearing and that despite them, Shiftry counterplay is heavily limited. Hence, my thoughts stem from there.
As someone who has built a crazy number of teams during this gen and especially in recent months, I recognize why the no ban side believes that Shiftry is not broken. The tier does have counterplay to Shiftry both defensively and offensively; but, it gets me thinking as if "is this the best we have?" As in, yes the metagame has Pokemon that fit the aforementioned categories, but Shiftry can still play around them or those Pokemon have issues of their own. In addition, quite a few niche Shiftry checks (i.e Bellossom, Jumpluff, Machoke, Monferno, Togetic, Silvally-Poison, Furfrou, etc) are honestly sub-par, inconsistent, and require specific team compositions to function, so you often won't be seeing them used. The issue I believe goes along with what uhuhuhu7 mentioned at the end of his post, that Shiftry forces a "linear building pattern." Because others have noted these Pokemon, I'll refrain from going into detail. However, dealing with Shiftry defensively is inherently difficult because of its power, STABs, and the fact that it is a mixed attacker (as well as its 4th slot flexibility to an extent). Moreover, there are a limited amount of offensive checks that reliably deal with Shiftry due to its powerful Sucker Punch, and there is an even smaller list of Pokemon that prefer to have Substitute over a coverage move.
In my opinion this is not healthy adaptation; but, being unhealthy is not necessarily a reason to ban something. Rather, I believe that Shiftry should be banned because of how effortlessly it disrupts the metagame and constrains teams as well as its limited counterplay. Going back to the point about me having built tons of team's during Shiftry's tenure, I have to say that Shiftry heavily limits teambuilding due to the fact that it has a very limited amount of switch-ins and disrupts how revenge killers function. Put bluntly, the Shiftry counterplay in the current metagame may be adequate for checking Shiftry in a vacuum, but in the grand scheme of ZU's meta, it is not sustainable. I see no ban arguments cite that the tier has a variety of Shiftry's counterplay, but in reality those Pokemon are either difficult to fit onto teams, can be beaten down by Shiftry (or are easily taken advantage of), barely qualify as checks with entry hazards up, and/or are forced to give up a valuable coverage move and instead must use Substitute or some other status move to bypass Sucker Punch. Furthermore, I've also seen the no ban argument about Shiftry's Knock Off as a healthy presence, which to me is more of a null point because ZU has other Knock Off users and STAB Knock Off is what makes Shiftry such a pain to begin with. Furthermore, Shiftry forces Pokemon such as Altaria and Rotom-S into using Z-moves to check it when they have superior items in Leftovers or recovery Berries.
I'm going to stop here before this gets too long. I could talk about why I believe that the trends Shiftry causes are too exploitable, so if someone wants to discuss that feel free to ping me in the ZU Discord. Take care
I'm not gonna end up getting the reqs to vote on this suspect but I do want to throw in my two cents on the issue because this is such a huge deal for this tier.
A lot of what needs to be said has already said. Yes, Shiftry has counterplay. Yes, it's a big old teambuilding constraint that forces people to use otherwise inferior mons and sets. It's getting to the point where a Shiftry weak team is flat out not a good team, even if it deals with the rest of our top threats admirably.
I was teetering on the edge of what I thought about this thing for a while, but what pushed me over to Team Ban was how specialized Shiftry's checks are, and, coincidentally, how a lot of Shiftry checks do not beat other grass types.
Now before you shout at me "COMBUSKEN", note that I didn't say all. Yes, most of the tiers fire types do well against a lot of our grasses, including Shiftry. Busken is the obvious choice here; its Z-Move sets are very viable even without Shiftry in the tier, and it wrecks most Grasses naturally unless you run into Scarf Sawsbuck or something. We also have Rapidash, Monferno, you know the drill. This has been talked about at length.
But note that that's a very short list. Many of our other Shiftry checks really struggle with our other grass types, and this is where the teambuilding constraints get out of control if you ask me.
Consider exhibit A, and the biggest culprit if you ask me: Leafeon.
Leafeon is an overall inferior mon to the Tree, and I doubt anyone would disagree with me on that. But it is still a very viable Pokemon in its own right. And one of the reasons it is so good right now is that a lot of Shiftry checks just lose to this thing.
Fighting and Darkvally's U-turns barely dent this thing thanks to its excellent bulk, and unless they are running Max speed Leafy can outrun them and put on the hurt. Shiinotic detests taking a Breakneck Blitz (which almost every Leafeon runs these days), as do Rotom-S and Altaria. Hell, with minimal bulk investment you can even (albeit, barely) tank a Combusken Flare Blitz and OHKO it with Breakneck Blitz. (Not that I'm recommending using Leafeon as your Combusken check, but it shows how different of a mon this thing is from Shiftry) Many of these mons do well against Shiftry, but if you are using some of these to deal with Shiftry and you run into a Leafeon you are in trouble.
The list doesn't end there either. You thought that that Colbur Berry Gourg would be the be all end all and complete your 1v1 Shiftry problem, except the opponent has a NP Simisage with an HP Ice with your name on it. Same with Servine. All of these grasses are definitely usable in the current metagame.
So now you are either forced to run a very specific subset of mons that beat ALL of our grass types, or you have to run two mons to check different grasses. And these days its even harder bc a lot of teams are resorting to two Shiftry checks. If that's not a teambuilding constraint than I don't know what is, and for that reason I'm PRO BAN.
I'm not gonna end up getting the reqs to vote on this suspect but I do want to throw in my two cents on the issue because this is such a huge deal for this tier.
A lot of what needs to be said has already said. Yes, Shiftry has counterplay. Yes, it's a big old teambuilding constraint that forces people to use otherwise inferior mons and sets. It's getting to the point where a Shiftry weak team is flat out not a good team, even if it deals with the rest of our top threats admirably.
I was teetering on the edge of what I thought about this thing for a while, but what pushed me over to Team Ban was how specialized Shiftry's checks are, and, coincidentally, how a lot of Shiftry checks do not beat other grass types.
Now before you shout at me "COMBUSKEN", note that I didn't say all. Yes, most of the tiers fire types do well against a lot of our grasses, including Shiftry. Busken is the obvious choice here; its Z-Move sets are very viable even without Shiftry in the tier, and it wrecks most Grasses naturally unless you run into Scarf Sawsbuck or something. We also have Rapidash, Monferno, you know the drill. This has been talked about at length.
But note that that's a very short list. Many of our other Shiftry checks really struggle with our other grass types, and this is where the teambuilding constraints get out of control if you ask me.
Consider exhibit A, and the biggest culprit if you ask me: Leafeon.
Leafeon is an overall inferior mon to the Tree, and I doubt anyone would disagree with me on that. But it is still a very viable Pokemon in its own right. And one of the reasons it is so good right now is that a lot of Shiftry checks just lose to this thing.
Fighting and Darkvally's U-turns barely dent this thing thanks to its excellent bulk, and unless they are running Max speed Leafy can outrun them and put on the hurt. Shiinotic detests taking a Breakneck Blitz (which almost every Leafeon runs these days), as do Rotom-S and Altaria. Hell, with minimal bulk investment you can even (albeit, barely) tank a Combusken Flare Blitz and OHKO it with Breakneck Blitz. (Not that I'm recommending using Leafeon as your Combusken check, but it shows how different of a mon this thing is from Shiftry) Many of these mons do well against Shiftry, but if you are using some of these to deal with Shiftry and you run into a Leafeon you are in trouble.
The list doesn't end there either. You thought that that Colbur Berry Gourg would be the be all end all and complete your 1v1 Shiftry problem, except the opponent has a NP Simisage with an HP Ice with your name on it. Same with Servine. All of these grasses are definitely usable in the current metagame.
So now you are either forced to run a very specific subset of mons that beat ALL of our grass types, or you have to run two mons to check different grasses. And these days its even harder bc a lot of teams are resorting to two Shiftry checks. If that's not a teambuilding constraint than I don't know what is, and for that reason I'm PRO BAN.
I'm not gonna go deep in this argument bc honestly im dead but if this is what pushed you over the edge maybe you should rethink this. Shiftry is not a pure grass type and usually behaves more as a Dark type with grass coverage than as a Grass type itself in the tier. This would literally be the same as deciding if combusken is broken because it beats would-be fire checks such as golem or corsola unlike rapidash, same goes for swanna and its ability to punish grass types hard unlike other waters, or its ability to punish golem unlike most flying types. It's more safe to compare shiftry to pawniard or silvally dark since they tend to have more similar checks. Our lack of dark types make shiftry seem overbearing, and in times i do agree it is, and thats mostly because we have a limited amount of dark checks, considering our fighting, fairy and dark pokemon are limited. Also if you remove shiftry from the equation the tier isnt really in need of dark resists because honestly our other dark types arent vwry good. Im not going into whether shiftry is broken or not here, just saying that this is a flawed logic
Ok so two changes have happened that I have wanted for the tier for a while now and I wanna talk about how the meta while shape up in my eyes after such changes.
One of them being of course being the drop of Torterra to the tier in which I find it brings many benefits as an alternative rocker that can check the other most prominent rocker in Golem alongside other top tier threats such as Electivire, Mareanie, and Bouffalant (and to an extent Komala). I have personally been liking both offensive SR and RP / SD Z-Move personally as I find Torterra's offensive presence is quite unmatchec in the tier especially between the coverage of Grass, Ground, and Rock. Defensive sets of course have merit, where sets utilizing type resistant berries such as Yache, Coba, and Occa Berry deserve a special mention in luring threats such as Scarf Evire, Swanna, and Combusken respectively. Here are the sets I have been using on my teams as of late:
The next change of course we need to discuss is the removal of Shiftry (which is something that I wanted to happen for a while now as I have been quite vocal about) and I am glad to see it finally gone from the tier as we close the chapter of SM ZU. I feel this is a change that will benefit mostly all playstyles, but especially will give a boost to Offense and Stall teams that often struggled to find the place or synergy to place common checks used on balance and BO teams (such as FightVally, Shiinotic, DragonVally, and to a lesser extent Mawile) on these type of teams and needed to resort to more fringe checks such as Combusken and Vullaby. I feel this change will open up the tier greatly and can provide more wiggle room in checking other slightly less oppressive threats that roam the tier such as Swanna, Combusken, Golem, Eggy, and Mixed Evire.
Increased Viability
(Water)
(Super)
I feel all these mons (I am sure I missed some but these are the most relevant to me) will gain a huge boon of viability and can help check the threats I mentioned previously above. Basically the threat of Koff + Grass coverage kinda made these mons hard to pilot at times without proper Shiftry counterplay in the back.
Decreased Viability:
(Fighting)
(Grass)
(Poison)
Basically bunching these mons all together as I feel while they may still see some use in checking some mons, however most of there viability derived from dealing with the overbearing threat of Shiftry and I feel the necessity to use these mons (which mainly fell pray for Swanna) won't see much use imo as before.
All in all, the meta is looking to go in a more positive direction from here. While threats such as Swanna may still be quite annoying still, I feel it is more manageable now compared to in the Shiftry meta. Would like to see other's opinions as well.
Combusken and Swanna are still as oppressive as ever. They're so hard to prep for as they could hit equally well from both sides. Swanna has like 4 sets which require different counter play. Personally, I think the tier would be even healthier with these 2 gone on top of Shiftry.
