OU SM OU Viability Rankings

Skypenguin

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Now that I'm out of SPL, I thought I'd share my thoughts based on my season and laddering over the past 2 years.

S RANK

S rank


:Magearna: Magearna
:Landorus-Therian: Landorus-Therian
:Toxapex: Toxapex

S- Rank

:Gliscor: Gliscor - To riff off z0mog, Gliscor is the best win con in the game but can be annoyingly exploitable and doesn't offer the same versatility or defensive capabilities as Lando.

A RANK

A+ rank


:Heatran: Heatran - Heatran took a hard hit — not just with Gliscor usage skyrocketing, but also because its amazing defenisve typing and ability can be misleading. For example, Volcarona invalidates Heatran while Magearna and Lele can break it pretty easily. However, when you have a team that's weak to Tran you're really reminded of how annoying spdef Tran is, especially if it hasn't revealed lefties yet.

:Kartana: Kartana - I never understood why people wanted Kart banned. I think it punishes aimless play harder than most mons and that it commands respect in the early game to determine its set, but I've never particularly struggled against it. I actually think Kart is an amazing defensive presence that helps keep the tier together, but I digress.

:Latias-Mega: Mega Latias - The Lando-T of megas, with endless viable sets. Adding Latias to your team solves so many defensive issues that are otherwise nigh impossible to cover with one mon, with it notably being literally the only splashable counter to SD Gliscor.

:Charizard-Mega-X: Mega Charizard X - This mon was on my final team 3 times in SPL. Unlike Latias, it only has one good set (Blitz + Claw + EQ), but it's insanely hard to answer. Zard-X is especially good vs people who like to play small ball with ground-types like Gastrodon or Gliscor, which are bigger than ever. You can even drop DD for Roost to just keep punching holes through the opposing team all game.

:Mawile-Mega: Mega Mawile
:Rotom-Wash: Rotom-Wash
:Ferrothorn: Ferrothorn
:Greninja: Greninja / Ash-Greninja - Protean is a lot more solid imo. When was the last time you saw an Ash Gren build that didn't forgo packing answers to some relevant threat? Ash is still a beast and Dark Pulse makes me cry, but it's just so hard to fit on a team when it offers nothing defensively and doesn't have a broken speed tier. Often you're just clicking Spikes, which Protean Gren does better.
:Alakazam-Mega: Mega Alakazam
:Chansey: Chansey - The win rate says it all. Both its status moves exert a ton of pressure, making Chansey an unstoppable rock setter in certain matchups. It is passive and prone to being teched though, and please stop using it as a water/fire/dark resist...

A rank

:Kommo-o: Kommo-o
:Serperior: Serperior - Great on HO, broken with subseed, not great with Z
:Medicham-Mega: Mega Medicham
:Magnezone: Magnezone
:Tyranitar-Mega: Mega Tyranitar - Pursuit is great and MTar is fatter than Skarm while having insane coverage + power, but I came to the conclusion a while back that it's impossible to build a team with TTar that doesn't lose to something off preview.
:Manaphy: Manaphy - The oft-changing move choices of Mana and its checks are a clear indicator of how oppressive this thing is vs fat. You'll see Thunder and Punishment coming from defensive teams while Manaphy techs anything from Psychic, Ice Beam, Toxic, Eball, to even Sball.
:Weavile: Weavile
:Lopunny-Mega: Mega Lopunny - I tried hard to use it, but Lop teams are always just so weak to stall. Free 6-0 vs Mew/Diancie HO with PUP though

:Clefable: Clefable - This mon is insanely hard to lure with viable sets, which led me to use a mon I normally wouldn't in Excadrill the week I was expecting to run into Clef given my past weaknesses to it. 3 attack orb (Moonblast >>> Ice Beam) is great, the mon can set rocks well, and CM sets are scary. I put Clef here though because it can be surprisingly frail or passive depending on your set.

:Tornadus-Therian: Tornadus-Therian - Torn's great and all, but it's outclassed in most of its roles from checking Medi/Kart/Bulu to exerting offensive pressure. Taunt can be an interesting option vs do-nothing teams, but relies too much on Hurricane hitting to set up outplays and on the one-time Z nuke for my taste.
:Tapu-Koko: Tapu Koko

A- rank

:Volcarona: Volcarona - This mon invalidates SR Heatran and PsySpam, and the right set can always win. Sub Swarm is crazy
:Victini: Victini
:Tapu-Lele:Tapu Lele - Similar to Ash Gren in that it's often hard to fit outside of "spam" teams
:Tapu-Bulu:Tapu Bulu
:Tapu Fini: Tapu Fini - RIP
:Garchomp: Garchomp - RIP (Still amazing with Z Dragon but hard to fit)
:Kyurem-Black: Kyurem-Black
:Pelipper: Pelipper - Rain is both unviable and broken at the same time; the most successful matchup fish of the generation
:Swampert-Mega: Mega Swampert - A wise man once said rain is broken because of its secondary effects
:Latios-Mega: Mega Latios - Crazy 4MSS and dead weight into Chansey/the right steel or psychic for your coverage
:Excadrill: Excadrill

B RANK

B+ rank


:Hawlucha: Hawlucha
:Slowbro: Slowbro - An amazingly versatile mon with great defensive value in current OU that can use Z moves really well on bulkier teams. I go more into detail in the SPL XIII sm discussion thread.
:Skarmory: Skarmory - We saw lots of Skarm this SPL, but it's really not splashable at all and doesn't fulfill the role of a typical steel, which limits it. P.S. Skarmory is not a water resist.
:Gastrodon: Gastrodon
:Charizard-Mega-Y: Mega Charizard Y - I have no clue why people don't like Zard-Y — it's a no-nonsense offense killer and sun support for teammates like Heatran and Kart makes up for any problems with rocks.
:Reuniclus: Reuniclus
:Zapdos: Zapdos
:Scizor-Mega: Mega Scizor - You really need a good reason to put this mon on any team. SD sets cleave through xtra-style HOs, but you could also just run a fire type that's not as passive or walled by Pex. Pursuit is ok, but only does ~45% to a switching Latias, and Defog sets are stuck trying to constantly heal hazard damage. Furthermore, you barely answer the mons you'd expect to check like Lele, Magearna, and Kartana.
:Ditto: Ditto

B rank

:Diancie-Mega: Mega Diancie
:Mew: Mew -Nearly always sets/denies rocks and paralyzes something as an HO lead. One annoying interaction is not being able to stop Mew with Diancie since you get paralyzed by Synchronize after bouncing back a Twave
:Hydreigon: Hydreigon - Very underrated mon that often wins off matchup. Unfortunately if your team relies on Hydra for things like breaking Chansey and Pex, running into Clefable requires some really creative playing
:Celesteela: Celesteela - Another sad mon that often does nothing; even worse, it's a defensive steel/flying mon that loses to Gliscor.
:Jirachi: Jirachi
:Sableye-Mega: Mega Sableye
:Kyurem: Kyurem - Low key 6-0d most teams this season
:Keldeo-Resolute: Keldeo - Pex is no answer to Sub CM or Z Hydro + Taunt, and even Protect + Toxic with slight bulk is solid
:Suicune: Suicune
:Tangrowth: Tangrowth - edit: I keep seeing people ask for help with teams in 2022 when they've got AV Tang... first step is to delete the mon. Helmet = B, AV = unranked

B- rank

:Pinsir-Mega: Mega Pinsir
:Slowbro-Mega: Mega Slowbro
:Gallade-Mega: Mega Gallade
:Thundurus-Therian: Thundurus-Therian
:Heracross-Mega: Mega Heracross
:Gyarados: Gyarados
:Salamence: Salamence - Sub DD Mence is one of the scariest sets to face when using a bulkier team
:Venusaur-Mega: Mega Venusaur
:Aggron-Mega: Mega Aggron

C RANK

C+ Rank


:Porygon-Z: Porygon Z - Nasty Plot + Z Hyper Beam + Tri Attack + Agility/Coverage for ghosts — enjoy the free wins and OHKOing Chansey
:Cresselia: Cresselia - It's not just a Lunar Dancer for cheese teams; defensive sets are cool into Medicham and Lele
:Garchomp-Mega: Mega Garchomp
:Bisharp: Bisharp
:Gyarados-Mega: Mega Gyarados
:Blacephalon: Blacephalon - I've tried to make this mon work so many times, but it just doesn't do its job well enough no matter the set or team. I straight up replaced specs Blace with a suicide Vic on an HO team and immediately went from 50% to 95% winrate
:Kingdra: Kingdra

C rank

:Crawdaunt: Crawdaunt - Chansey is not a water resist
:Krookodile: Krookodile
:Amoonguss: Amoonguss
:Hippowdon: Hippowdon - Hippo loses to everything it wants to beat :(
:Tyranitar: Tyranitar
:Mamoswine: Mamoswine
:Hoopa-Unbound: Hoopa-Unbound - There's usually a better choice than Hoopa if you're interested in breaking stall
:Breloom: Breloom - Show me a fat team and show me its switchin to offensive Breloom

C- rank

:Aerodactyl-Mega: Mega Aerodactyl - Shreds modern HO and technically walls Gliscor, but has 4mss and issues managing its health. You also have to forgo its amazing speed tier and run adamant for a lot of its relevant OHKOs and 2HKOs
:Ribombee: Ribombee
:Gengar: Gengar
:Seismitoad: Seismitoad
:Azumarill: Azumarill
:Araquanid: Araquanid
:Terrakion: Terrakion
:Bronzong: Bronzong - Unique typing and a couple nice movesets - super passive and weak to pursuit too though
:Tauros: Tauros :)
 
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Clementine

Done and dusted
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Stealing the idea and format from McMeghan, it's time for the much needed SM VR update!

If you wish to submit a VR, you have to send me a PM on Discord (preferably, @ Clem#3471) or Smogon. If you meet the following criterais, I will send you a Google Form that you will fill.

Here's the list of criteria for the VR submission, you must meet at least one of them to be part of the VR update:
  • Played at least 5 games in one of the 2 most recent SPLs (SPL XIII and/or SPL XIV)
  • Made playoffs of one of the 3 most recent Smogon Tours (Smogon Tour 32, Smogon Tour 33 and/or Smogon Tour 34)
  • Made playoffs of the 2022 SM OU Championship
  • Made top 8 of either the last Seasonal, or last Championship (NOT the current one, ie SM OU Summer Seasonal #3 and/or SM OU Global Championships 2022)
Of course, feel free to post your own VR on the forums, regardless of you meeting the criteria. Do not hesitate to elaborate on your rankings, especially the most unpopular ones! Keep it civil in this thread and keep in mind that rankings very much depend on a player's prefered playstyle.

Here's the link if you wanna make a good looking VR
 

Skypenguin

Skype (nguin)
is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a defending SPL Champion
Moderator
S RANK

S rank


:Magearna: Magearna - The only mon you will never regret putting on your team, regardless of its set

S- Rank

:Landorus-Therian: Landorus-Therian - Most versatile mon and less exploitable defensively than gliscor
:Toxapex: Toxapex - Scary to load in the builder because of the flaws in teams it ends up on, but still a pex
:Gliscor: Gliscor - Best wincon in the game, but tougher to create a cohesive defensive core with so it doesn't work on offence

A RANK

A+ rank


:Latias-Mega: Mega Latias <3
:Charizard-Mega-X: Mega Charizard X - Prior to this SPL season, I had it in S right under magearna... Still nearly unstoppable but it can be prepped against
:Kartana: Kartana
:Volcarona: Volcarona - Bumped volc up to A+ since it's so hard to account for all the popular sets
:Chansey: Chansey
:Mawile-Mega: Mega Mawile - only this low because the teams it fits on don't suit the modern metagame since volc and friends are so scary
:Medicham-Mega: Mega Medicham
:Tapu-Koko: Tapu Koko - I can't in good conscience put this at the top of A+ like I had planned before SPL, but it's very flexible in terms of movesets and just plain hard to switch into, regardless of how difficult it can be to put on a team
:Heatran: Heatran - very underrated, still incredibly annoying to break through and timid z sets as well as taunt work
:Greninja: Greninja / Ash-Greninja
:Ferrothorn: Ferrothorn - more exploitable these days due to HO

A rank

:Alakazam-Mega: Mega Alakazam - impossible to run outside of psyspam or funky stall teams
:Rotom-Wash: Rotom-Wash
:Hawlucha: Hawlucha - still as broken as ever, also very good with koko into bad HO
:Kommo-o: Kommo-o
:Diancie-Mega: Mega Diancie - not just due to its HO lead set; protect is annoying to play around and people downplay its ability to block hazards
:Serperior: Serperior
:Manaphy: Manaphy - rain kind of sucks these days but mana is still oppressive
:Clefable: Clefable
:Tornadus-Therian: Tornadus-Therian
:Weavile: Weavile

A- rank

:Swampert-Mega: Mega Swampert - flinch, freeze, crit
:Victini: Victini
:Tapu-Lele:Tapu Lele
:Excadrill: Excadrill - sand is very solid, even with smooth rock hippo, and spinning is valuable with taunts being thrown around everywhere
:Tyranitar-Mega: Mega Tyranitar
:Magnezone: Magnezone
:Kyurem-Black: Kyurem-Black - everything in this A- tier can be broken in the right circumstances, but are all hard to fit on a team (except maybe the solid victini). Kyub is probably the epitome of this idea, with its memorable usage being limited to a few select teams

B RANK

B+ rank


:Lopunny-Mega: Mega Lopunny - so baddd. It's honestly surprising whenever I have good results with lop, since it's just not strong enough
:Garchomp: Garchomp - this mon does not exist unfortunately
:Tapu-Bulu:Tapu Bulu - this mon gets way too much hate — a good bulu team abuses terrain better than the opponent. SD sets are annoying whether spdef or Z, band is scary to switch into, and scarf is usable despite what people say
:Tapu Fini: Tapu Fini - also doesn't get enough respect (admittedly from me as well). It'll do its job extremely well and its terrain can be a great tool both offensively and defensively, but it doesn't blow anyone out of the water
:Scizor-Mega: Mega Scizor - a mon that's had a bit of a resurgence, it's just surprisingly solid overall
:Skarmory: Skarmory
:Slowbro: Slowbro
:Charizard-Mega-Y: Mega Charizard Y
:Latios-Mega: Mega Latios - I never got the hype; latios is pretty weak. If you can afford a set that's not walled by steels, it's an interesting pick however

B rank

:Pelipper: Pelipper - I'll put peli here since rain as a whole is in a bad place, regardless of how unstoppable mana and pert can be
:Zapdos: Zapdos - doesn't quite do its job but static zapdos' coverage will never be easy to play around
:Reuniclus: Reuniclus
:Gastrodon: Gastrodon - there is honestly a huge drop off between B+ and B
:Ditto: Ditto - technically good but its teams all suck
:Hydreigon: Hydreigon - don't use defog. (specs is suprisingly okay as well)
:Kyurem: Kyurem
:Celesteela: Celesteela
:Slowbro-Mega: Mega Slowbro
:Jirachi: Jirachi

B- rank

:Garchomp-Mega: Mega Garchomp - ranked for its special sets — 4 attacks with hp ice and eq is ideal
:Gyarados: Gyarados
:Suicune: Suicune
:Keldeo-Resolute: Keldeo
:Thundurus-Therian: Thundurus-Therian
:Hippowdon: Hippowdon
:Cresselia: Cresselia - my first crazy pick. Cress is an amazing pokemon defensively, switching into medi and lele and soft checking half the tier. I don't even run lunar dance on it; CM is a nice option that can flat out win against offense and pressure some stalls with a bit of spatk investment, and protect + a status of choice is also fine — not to mention how it carries trick room.
:Moltres: Moltres - my second crazy pick. Moltres is here solely for its offensive Z Hurricane + defog set. A lot of teams simply are not equipped to a strong fire type with legitimately powerful flying coverage. Pressure works great, especially against passive rockers like clef and gliscor, and even against chansey given heal bell support. What's not to like about a mon that can take +2 sucker from mawile and ohko gliscor/swampert?
:Hoopa-Unbound: Hoopa-Unbound - I hated on this mon last time I posted a VR but it's honestly solid if played well
:Pinsir-Mega: Mega Pinsir
:Mew: Mew

C RANK

C+ Rank


:Sableye-Mega: Mega Sableye
:Gyarados-Mega: Mega Gyarados - use taunt/sub (ideally taunt). You're already fishing to an extent by using mgyara, so instead of trying to guess which 3 coverage moves will give you the best results, just trust in this mon's strengths and go for stall breaking
:Heracross-Mega: Mega Heracross
:Blacephalon: Blacephalon
:Crawdaunt: Crawdaunt
:Salamence: Salamence - use sub
:Tangrowth: Tangrowth - I stopped feeling pressured by past rankings; tangrowth is a garbage pokemon and is 100% worse than everything ranked above it
:Kingdra: Kingdra - actually not too bad on rain, and it becomes very hard to lose to HO when using kingdra

C rank

:dragonite: Dragonite
:Gengar: Gengar - specs hex can go in
:Aggron-Mega: Mega Aggron
:Venusaur-Mega: Mega Venusaur
:Breloom: Breloom
:Seismitoad: Seismitoad
:Krookodile: Krookodile - moxie honestly fits scarf krook's profile better than intimidate if you can afford it (you usually can)
:volcanion: Volcanion - niche anti-meta pick
:Amoonguss: Amoonguss
:Tyranitar: Tyranitar
:Bisharp: Bisharp

C- rank

:Sharpedo-Mega: Mega Sharpedo - you honestly don't even need a speed boost. It's insanely strong, with crunch 2hkoing celes. If you're fine against clef this mon eats, and can even be run with 4 attacks
:Azumarill: Azumarill - drum is sometimes broken. Sap sipper is also technically usable
:Gallade-Mega: Mega Gallade
:mimikyu: Mimikyu
:muk-alola: Alolan Muk
:Porygon-Z: Porygon Z - z hyper beam, ghost conversion + pex/chansey trapper
:Alomomola: Alomomola
:Bronzong: Bronzong
:Ribombee: Ribombee
:Araquanid: Araquanid
:golem-alola: Alolan Golem
:camerupt-mega: Mega Camerupt
:Mamoswine: Mamoswine
 
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So here is my VR. Hope more people will post theirs as well! (edited in October 2023)

tier list maktyum.png


S RANK
S rank

:Landorus-Therian: Landorus-Therian-This mon never fails me, its versatility is everything both movepool wise than role wise. Yache berry is underrated, Z is still sooooo good.
:Magearna: Magearna-Again, its movepool is incredible, letting it answer all the needs of a team. Classic Assault vest does its job, cm+pain split is a pain to deal with, and it has a wide variety of sets between all the Z moves possible, items or support moves like twave.

S- rank

:toxapex: Toxapex
:gliscor: Gliscor-Limited to teams designed for longer games as a stall breaker and one of the most powerful win conditions of the tier. It is both the best piece of those kinds of teams and their main weakness. It can be abused, this is why its usage decreased a little lately.

A RANK

:kartana: Kartana-The king of A+. Kartana's power is undeniable. Best choice item mon of the tier. It is always threatening and makes progress. It is funny because even in this fire spam metagame, kartana is still relevant and effective.
:chansey: Chansey-I now feel like Chansey is vital on every non-offense team, it is a special sponge that can answer a huge part of the tier AND Volcarona. Virtually neutralizing almost all special attackers is powerful.
:latias-mega: Mega Latias-Best mega of the tier by far, its typing and bulk answer so many problems for a team.
:volcarona: Volcarona aka Bullshit mon. can't see it anymore
:greninja: Greninja
:greninja-ash: Ash-Greninja
:tapu-koko: Tapu Koko-Just one of the best offensive pivots and has never been a dead weight for me. Terrain and speed is an obvious deadly combo coupled with the longevity of roost. Specs is still crazy strong, and the versatility in Z moves is impressive.
:medicham-mega: Mega Medicham-I love how this mon can just win vs anything with only one correct anticipation. Medi+koko with Thunderpunch is really threatening, breaking past common switch-ins like reuniclus and slowbro.
:heatran: Heatran
:ferrothorn: Ferrothorn
:charizard-mega-x: Mega Charizard X-It is on paper unstoppable, but the recoil of flare blitz forces it to make compromises in game and in the builder. You want roost for longevity, but the speed and power of dragon dance while having the almost perfect flare, dclaw and eq. Even with this 4MSS, Charizard X is incredible.
:alakazam-mega: Mega Alakazam-Its ability grants him a nice versatility vs a lot of match-ups. Four attacks is a nice Swiss army knife and CM sets are scary. Because of its frailness, the metagame is very hostile to it; however psyspam is still threatening if you are not prepared.
:diancie-mega: Mega Diancie-Moonblast coming from 160 special attack and 110 in speed is cool and with its coverage options and ability, it can become an early-game demon. I also like endeavor outside of the lead set, you can catch chansey with it+diamond storm (need some attack invests)
:Clefable: Clefable-Well magic guard T_T. Clefable is incredibly hard to dispose of and is always annoying to face with paralysis and coverage. Always be prepared for it.
:mawile-mega: Mega Mawile-Starting to like it, it really provides immediate power with modulable sets and coverage. The only hick is that fire types are running rampant right now.
:hawlucha: Hawlucha-A team that loses to it on preview is a bad team. Easiest mon to set up
:kommo-o: Kommo-o-This mon can just check sooo much, with many options. Offensive sets can do the job but will never win on the spot since fairies are common.
:serperior: Serperior-I find this mon to be crazy good on paper. However, it is hard to fit on balance and has one of the biggest 4MSS since you want the annoying effect of leech seed, broken glare but also coverage for steels. For a sub set I find that leech seed is crazy, the choice comes more to glare or coverage. If sub less, glare+knock off+hp fire is really good.
:tornadus-therian: Tornadus-Does check a lot but not particularly well. Taunt+knock is why I put it so high (and it is still a consistent defog).
:tapu-lele: Tapu Lele-Still insane, it can just win so easily it is crazy (see the empo game from this SPL, the lele tutorial). Just really hard to fit in a team that don't rely on spamming.
:rotom-wash: Rotom Wash
:victini: Victini-Underrated, scarf+final gambit is great. Also a nice option for HO teams. don't use z celebrate it is not that good. Band is ok but needs a lot of support.
:manaphy: Manaphy-The real demon of rain
:tapu-fini: Tapu Fini-I agree that misty terrain is underrated, acting as a great support for set-up sweepers. But when I'm using it I'm always scared of facing t-spike toxapex, forcing me to use another defog user which is sad. Tapu-fini is an easy mon to incorporate into a team thanks to its bulk and typing.
:tyranitar-mega: Mega Tyranitar-It is a weird case. Its bulk is everything you can dream of. However, its typing is horrendous defensively leading to "unperfect" teams (can't answer everything that is meta right now). Just look at the list of the mons above it, almost all of them can hit it super effectively which puts great pressure on the defensive core. Once you accept that, you can see how good pursuit and sand are as win conditions. Play Crunch on it.
:slowbro: Slowbro-future sight <3
:weavile: Weavile-While its offensive presence is incredible, its frailness and typing don't help the team it fits on defensively. But it is extremely efficient at what it was thought for, spamming knock-off and pursuit. I like the arrival of beat up as well, even if it only fits precise archetypes.
:magnezone: Magnezone
:excadrill: Excadrill-Sand is coming back and I'm all for it. Excadrill is threatening offensively while adding a ton of utility to a sand team.
:lopunny-mega: Mega lopunny-PUP into lead mew is funny. otherwise yeah, most teams nowadays don't fold to it or it needs too many supports to function.
:garchomp: Garchomp
:scizor-mega: Mega Scizor-fire spam is hard for the armored bug, but you then remember how bulky it can be while still demonstrating a good offensive presence with its priority. Fast scizor is cool vs magnezone or some heatran and I generally prefer physically defensive mega scizor, since tapu lele still wins vs a spedef variant.
:kyurem-black: Kyurem Black-even if Z move is the only viable set, it always makes a kill which is sufficient to be better than a B rank Pokemon
:slowbro-mega: Mega Slowbro
:Pelipper: Pelipper/:Swampert-Mega: Mega Swampert

B RANK

:seismitoad: Seismitoad-While being a counter to those teams relying on rotom wash or Koko to pivot, it has a great utility niche in the meta with stealth rocks, knock-off, scald...and being a great status absorber with refresh or rest. It can switch into heatran as well and create some 50/50 against battle-bound greninja which I like.
:charizard-mega-y: Mega Charizard Y-insane power but if only it was faster than medicham. Being blocked by toxapex, chansey or dragons is not a problem with teammates.
:Latios-mega: Mega Latios-4MMS is sad. Its typing and ability are still great assets in a team.
:skarmory: Skarmory
:celesteela: Celesteela-The hate on Celesteela is impressive. It still functions well and continues to be a pain to face. the magnezone usage decreasing is cool for it. While it is true that it loose 1vs1 against Gliscor, it never was celesteela role to win vs it; Celesteela is shutting down an immediate sweep of Gliscor and helps splashable answers to win vs the bat (like latias). Cele-pex is really efficient, especially on sand.
:tapu-bulu: Tapu Bulu-underwhelming. Can't do a lot in the current metagame but choice band is still a pain to switch into.
:reuniclus: Reuniclus
:zapdos: Zapdos-Static never works for me, otherwise it would be ranked higher. the rock weakness always puts it in the corner, leaving it unable to do its job consistently, especially when static is not working.
:keldeo: Keldeo
:Ditto: Ditto
:mew: Mew
:gastrodon-east: Gastrodon
:Jirachi: Jirachi
:Sableye-Mega: Mega Sableye
:hydreigon: Hydreigon-It is really good on Sun teams as a defog user. Otherwise, Z belch is a cool option and its coverage is enjoyable.
:suicune: Suicune-cheeeseee
:Kyurem: Kyurem
:cresselia: Cresselia-How can a mon be so fat? A nice medi/lele check.
:tyranitar: Tyranitar-nobody uses it anymore but its bulk is still there and it is still a functional pursuit user. Choice band is nuclear while AV is quite solid.
:garchomp-mega: Mega Garchomp
:pinsir-mega: Mega Pinsir
:dragonite: Dragonite-Multiscale is useful on HO, it should be used more imo
:Gyarados: Gyarados-moxie clan, useful typing and crazy snowball effect
:salamence: Salamence-like a mix between dragonite and Gyarados with 100 in speed. a nice pick
:thundurus-therian: Thundurus-Therian
:venusaur-mega: Mega Venusaur
:gallade-mega: Mega Gallade
:aggron-mega: Mega Aggron
:hippowdon: Hippowdon

C RANK

:kingdra: Kingdra
:volcanion: Volcanion-An interesting mon with helpful bulk and ability, allowing it to trade vs a wide range of the tier. Steam eruption is also threatening with the burn probability.
:gyarados-mega: Mega Gyarados-a niche pick for hyper offense but still an incredible bulk and ability.
:Crawdaunt: Crawdaunt
:Bisharp: Bisharp
:thundurus: Thundurus-priority t-wave is always something and bulky variants can see some results as my friends showed me.
:heracross-mega: Mega Heracross-incredible power and ability but being slower than heatran is sad.
:Camerupt-mega: Mega Camerupt
:Blacephalon: Blacephalon
:hoopa-unbound: Hoopa Unbound
:tangrowth: Tangrowth
:krookodile: Krookodile
:nidoking: Nidoking
:amoonguss: Amoonguss
:breloom: Breloom
:altaria-mega: Mega Altaria-don't use dragon dance. It is only viable as a cleric and defensive Pokemon.
:moltres: Moltres
:venusaur: Venusaur
:torkoal: Torkoal-has a small niche as an alternative to Charizard Y with great physical bulk, status options and spin.
:alomomola: Alomomola
:ribombee: Ribombee-The best sticky web user outclassing shuckle and araquanid. HO lacking serperior are just not good into sticky, which is enough to attest its niche
:mismagius: Mismagius-walls facade Gliscor and is an anti fat pick with sub+nasty plot.
:uxie: Uxie
:marowak-alola: Marowak Alola-Trick room is really cool and Marowak hits like truck. I hope we will see some TR teams in the future, it is relatively unexplored but in the HO world that we live in, maybe there is a chance.
:gengar: Gengar
:zeraora: Zeraora
:araquanid: Araquanid
:diggersby: Diggersby
:mimikyu: Mimikyu-too weak but disguise is still annoying, especially when you miss your attacks.
:bronzong: Bronzong
:sharpedo-mega: Mega Sharpedo-a niche cleaner, just too frail to do something consistently.
:aerodactyl-mega: Mega Aerodactyl-cool into HO, and it is true that it needs adamant
:muk-alola: Muk Alola
:cofagrigus: Cofagrigus
:azumarill: Azumarill
:golem-alola: Golem Alola
:porygon-z: Porygon Z-always fails but Z conversion (electric) in electric terrain is quite funny into no chansey
:ampharos-mega: Mega Ampharos-the bulk is nice, but the calcs are sad (it can't OHKO latias T_T)
:terrakion: Terrakion
:banette-mega: Mega Banette-destiny bond is a nice HO stopper, otherwise it is bad.
:espeon: Espeon-saw some people playing it on like bird spam with Volcarona. so C-
:mamoswine: Mamoswine
:cloyster: Cloyster
:ninetales-alola: Alolan Ninetales
 
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:Alakazam-Mega: Mega Alakazam - impossible to run outside of psyspam or funky stall teams
Something I want to add to mega zam is that a 4 attacking moveset with energy ball over recover is a funky anti-rain tech if your team struggles with that matchup. You either force out the mega swampert (which is good obviously) or you trace swift swim and have a decent chance of winning instantly.
 

Goodbye & Thanks

Thrown in a fire?
wtf does mono mean in this context

and besides, I'd rate torn t higher if it had moves that connected
I don't want to speak for Proftreez, but I believe that they were implying that since you seem to mainly/only run an HO team with Thundurus-T, you may have a skewed perspective on how good Torn-T is, because that's a rough matchup for Torn to run into.

To throw my perspective in there, I think that Torn-T is clearly still great. Torn offers a good amount of role compression on BO teams and is easy to slot into teams while building. Being a U-turn pivot with Knock and Defog, while also being a crucial check to things like Kart and Mega Medi (it's not like Band/SD Kart or Medi should be staying in on Torn hoping that Cane misses or something) is great value. On top of that, Torn gives you a Ground resist and is one of the best Rocky Helmet users, due to Regenerator and its pivoting ability. Sure, Hurricane accuracy is annoying (although you do get the benefit of not having to worry about that in/against Rain) but Torn doesn't really need to rely on it to make progress. Torn is truly a glue mon for many teams, so you don't need to be banking on Hurricane hitting too often as a crucial part of your gameplan. Missing a Cane often isn't the end of the world anyway because pivoting out and healing through Regenerator can be pretty forgiving. Besides, if you are running an offensive Torn, it's likely you're Z mon, which obviously mitigates the accuracy concerns.
 
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I know it’s just a minor convenience but is there any way we could get the mon’s names to link to their USM smogon page? I also know that giving editing permissions to a random user isn’t at all a good idea but for what it’s worth I’d be willing to do it myself
 
My thoughts on the tier currently. Granted, my perspective is going to be heavily skewed because 1. I peaked at 1524 and hover around mid-high 1400’s, which I’d like to think is decent but certainly not great and 2. I’ve only played on ladder thus far, so my tier list is going to be affected by latter trends. Obviously I am far from a top player and my views have plenty of bias, but I didn’t figure there was any harm in sharing.

S Tier

Mag- Doesn’t need explaining. Best mon in the tier. Every set (save AV) is incredibly powerful and capable of single-handedly dismantling teams. The one saving grace of seeing Mag damn near every game on the ladder has been that the most popular set is AV, which isn’t particularly great.

Pex- Again, a mon that requires no explanation. Its only real problem is that it can kinda get 4MSS from picking between Toxic, Scald, Haze, Recover, Knock Off, T spikes, Baneful Bunker, etc. Regardless, those first 4 moves give you a consistent check to the majority of the offensive threats in the tier.

Gliscor- I’ve grown to hate this thing so much. Toxic Heal+Reliable recovery should never have been a thing. It’s an incredible rocks setter. It’s an incredible defogger. It’s an incredible bulky SD sweeper. Immune to getting ohko’d unless you really fuck up its EVs. Toxic lets it outlast pretty much every pokemon in the tier, be they offensive or defensive. Protect on this thing makes you feel like you’ve been toxic poisoned irl

A+ Tier

Latias-M- would be #2-3 in the tier if not for opportunity cost of being a mega. Utility is definitely good, but CM is what gets it this high. It’s incredible bulk lets it switch in all game, and then it just sweeps with the disgusting damage of stored power. If you can fit heal bell/aromatherapy on your team, this thing becomes borderline unstoppable.

Lando-T- It’s great at role compression, but other mons can do a lot of its roles better. Intimidate is the main reason it’s this high- it allows the defensive set to check pretty much every physical attacker in the tier while still having a strong EQ and rocks, and it allows scarf to be even safer when RKing mons that outspeed/have prio. Offensive Stealth Rock is worse Garchomp, don’t use it.

Clef- Just a very solid utility mon. Toxic/twave shuts down pretty much anything that poses a threat to it, CM is a really nice way to threaten mons that don’t win or lose against unboosted clef, it has a shit ton of coverage, and reliable recovery. Only issues are 4MSS, and the fact that unaware relies on Wish+Protect. Don’t use unaware.


Greninja-Ash- As long as you have one of its checks around, it’s a dead slot. The instant you don’t, you lose. Only this low because its checks are all very viable and common mons, but most teams only pack one and once it transforms, it can just wear down its checks until it can brute force its way through your entire team.


A Tier

Heatran- SpDef shrugs off every attack not named EQ. Magma Storm would be broken asf if it hit the opponent, but it’s bulky enough to afford the occasional miss. Great SR mon. Uses Z moves well but once you pop the z move, it's too slow to be a good offensive mon. SpA is ridiculous enough that it's kinda worth it.

Kart- Band pretty much auto wins vs teams that can't outspeed it. Scarf is very solid wallbreaker/sweeper, and utility is suprisingly useful considering its poor bulk. SD feels like overkill, you're dropping things left and right anyways so you'd rather the immediate power of band or the better speed of scarf.

Ferro- great hazard setter, punishes rapid spin, beats most defoggers, power whip and gyro ball do surprising damage, leech seed beats pretty much everything that can't 2hko.

Koko- Fast as hell and does damage. Specs is obviously the best set but physical electrium z is far from bad, ohkoing chansey is pretty fucking cool.

Manaphy- Tail Glow is downright oppressive. It's almost like a better protean gren in the sense that you pretty much get to pick your counters with your coverage options. in rain this thing WILL kill anything that doesn't kill it beforehand.

Chansey- "It's Super Effective! Chansey lost 12% of it's health"
Pex if it was invincible specially, mediocre physically, and had a worse movepool.

Torn-T- Z-move>rocky helmet, the nuke is much more valuable than the bulk (it doesn’t take hits super well anyways). best defogger in the tier, has regenerator, fast, good damage. Not a ton to say. You know why Torn-T is good.

Rotom-W- WoW lets this thing beat every physical attacker in the tier. Electric/Water is one of the best typings in the game, and it’s even more broken with levitate.

A- Tier
Skarm- Very very good, but it just has no way to make progress against mons it can't status. Obv setting up spikes is very threatening but SM hazard removal is a bitch, and too many good mons threaten it for me to put it any higher.

Tapu Lele- if it had that garchomp speed tier it would be A+/S, deadly pokemon but its just a touch too slow to be top tier. Scarf doesn't hit quite hard enough to tear apart teams the way specs does, and psychic/fairy is a pretty poor offensive typing which allows a lot of faster mons to kill specs. CM has same issue but even worse since it has to set up. Still, it hits so damn hard I can't put it any lower than this.

Victini- obv Z-celebrate stored power is a great sweeper (very fast, surprisingly bulky, hits like a bomb) but CB is underrated, resists take 40% minimum from V-create. bolt strike kills nearly everything that v-create doesn't. the unpredictability of guessing between band or z-celebrate is terrifying. scarf is useful for deleting a specific mon w/ final gambit but otherwise sucks.

Mawile-M- DISGUSTING damage. highest attack stat of all time when factoring in huge power. sucker punch hits hard enough to overlook speed issues and swords dance turns the damage calulator into a cookie clicker simulator. Surprisingly solid defensively despite low hp due to good defensive stats+one of the best defensive typings in the game.

Reuniclus- unless you taunt it, it has a genuinely horrifying number of winning matchups. if you see this thing in TR it's over. hits like an 18 wheeler and is confirmed to have survived several nuclear bombs.

Zard X- only this low because the choice between dragon claw and roost is just so impossible. SR weakness+flare blitz recoil wears this thing down fast as hell, it absoultely needs roost to function, but it loses to one too many common defensive mons without dragon claw simply because of their typing. still, good speed tier and flare blitz will 2hko most resists at +1.

Volc- matchup moth likes having gems on crack. bulky qd wins the game once you eliminate any physical attacker on the opponents team that can outdamage roost.

Ditto- this tier has more setup sweepers than james bond has STDs.

Tapu Bulu- actually pretty terrifying. band lowkey sucks against any team that has a good wood hammer switchin. SD would put this thing a tier or 2 higher if it weren't for Torn-T. Bulk Up would be really good if grass/fairy was good defensively.

Garchomp- might be the best sr setter in the tier. you have to guess whether its dragonium z or rockium z and guessing wrong will lose you games. plenty of other good sets but offensive sr stands out as the best. tank is solid but unless you really like phazing, just use lando. chain chomp is underrated.

Alakazam-M- CM is terrifying if you let it set up, but recover+3 attacks isn't too hard to deal with. running any slightly bulky psychic resist with a decently strong physical attack means you can take one attack and ohko in return. still, punches massive holes against teams that don't have a healthy check. also helps that it's the fastest relevant mon in the entire tier (unless you play at 1100, at which point you may have to deal with ninjask from people who either aren’t playing to win or are under the age of 12)

Lopunny-M- physical alakazam. big damage, fast asf, but lacks boosting options and thus will inevitably encounter something it can't kill, and it will die when that happens. also sucks that all of its moves make contact, zapdos is this thing's worst nightmare

B+ Tier
Pelipper and Swampert-M- ranked together because both are useless without the other. I’ve found rain to be very good, and thus these two rank highly. the only consistent gameplan I've found against rain is to kill pelipper as fast as humanly possible and then switch between fini and lando against swampert until rain disappears.

Protean Greninja- this thing would be so good if its moves hit the opponent. It's too weak to rely on accurate moves, and I've seen a very large number of games (both using and against gren) that were lost to a missed hydro pump or gunk shot. Massively, massively rng reliant but when it works, it fucking WORKS. Picking who to switch into this thing has a tendency to end in a dead mon.

Amoongus- Spore+Regenerator. Usable stats. Take a fucking guess.

TTar-M- if rock had usable stab this thing would be A/A-. Incredibly bulky setup sweeper with disgusting attack but all of its moves have very low BP and stone edge is just atrocious (why did anyone at GF think base 100bp on a mid typing had to be balanced by causing you to lose ⅕ games?)

Celesteela- autotomize sweeper is pretty bad, sub/protect leech borders on immortal. Really good defensive typing, good defensive stats, solid coverage. Not a ton to say.

Kyu-B- can and will ohko resists with icium-z. Fusion bolt hits hard as hell and is good coverage. Ironically, you don’t usually see dragon stab on this thing because it needs ice beam, earth power, fusion bolt, and freeze shock for z move. You could try dropping freeze shock for outrage/dragon claw and running a different item but I don’t know how well that would go.

Medicham-M- Lopunny-M if it was slightly less frail, slower, and wayyyy stronger. Doesn’t appreciate lando-t being more common than oxygen (I know it has ice punch but unless you predict the lando switch in, HJK does nothing).

B Tier

Slowbro(-M)- It’s weird ranking these 2. Base slowbro is better due to regenerator, but it appreciates being able to skyrocket its defence at any moment and there isn’t a ton of opportunity cost to running slowbronite. Regardless, very solid defensive presence with good utility. CM Mega slowbro can be terrifying.

Serp- Bigger matchup fish than matchup moth. Terrible coverage, has to pick what it’s hardwalled by, and can really only glare/leech seed against bad matchups. Still, it’s fast and contrary leaf storm is broken.

Exca- broken in sand, meh otherwise. Usable lead but I feel like it’s definitely the weakest link in the team I used to rank up because the lead set (aka the only non-sand set) just isn’t particularly great, but it has a niche as the only sr setter with rapid spin.

Sableye-M- very very very annoying, but its bulk is only good compared to most defensive mons which means it can simply be overwhelmed by strong attackers. Still, magic bounce+WoW+recover is about as good as you think it is.

Hippowdon- Really bulky, has reliable recovery, has yawn, sets rocks. Is really passive outside of yawn but it’s bulky enough that not much can threaten it. Better at keeping sand up than ttar.

TTar- pursuit, sand, and god tier stat distribution carry its god awful typing and god awful stab.

Azumarill- very strong, but cb isn’t too bad to switch into and belly drum requires a lot of its checks to be put into +6 aqua jet range.

Tapu Fini- this thing would be A- if it had reliable recovery. Really good defogger with decent damage and good coverage with its stabs, and switches into damn near every special attacker in the tier.

B- Tier

Zapdos- too passive for my liking, doesn’t do enough damage without significant SpA investment and Tbolt/Roost/Toxic/HP Ice or Heat Wave is good but gets hard walled by heatran (and a few others depending on the coverage move it picks) which is a big deal. Do not try to run defog on this thing, it doesn’t have enough moves as is.

Zard Y- extremely powerful but its coverage is very easy to switch into. 4x rocks weakness makes it really hard to justify over the numerous better megas in the tier.

Diancie-M- magic bounce is really good, but it isn’t strong enough to make up for its terrible defensive typing. Still does a lot of damage and can keep rocks off.

Kommo-O- clangorous soulblaze is kinda just worse z-celebrate victini, and belly drum is very hard to facilitate but wins the game once it sets up.

Gyarados- Kind of a matchup fish, but can still punch a lot of holes midgame against teams it can’t sweep. Needs moxie to sweep which leaves it wanting for power before it gets +3 or so

Gyarados-M- I mean it’s a good setup sweeper with sub but you’d rather just use a better mega or a better ddancer.

Scizor-M- loses to a lot of the tier, pretty much just ends up being worse kartana (swords dance or utility) but without the option of choice sets. Still very strong and bulky so it’s here.

Magnezone- sub z move is terrifying, scarf is ok but there really aren’t enough steel types worth trapping. EQ is everywhere tho which is really bad on a mon this slow. Has to use HP fire so no HP ice, which means losing to most ground types in the tier

Mew- decent utility but it doesn’t accomplish much outside of WoW and defog. Bad defensive typing

C+ Tier

Cresselia- bad defensive typing doesn’t matter when you have the greatest defensive stats of all time. The best setter/support on TR teams but TR is a very niche style so it ends up here

Marowak-A- the swampert to cress’ pelipper. Outspeeds and ohkos pretty much the entire tier under TR but has very little use outside of TR.

Bisharp- not bulky enough to handle the onslaught of fire, fighting, and ground attacks flying around the tier, not strong enough to threaten without setting up. Defiant+Sucker Punch make this thing capable of putting in work but things have to go really well for you.

C Tier

Hawlucha- this thing is so bad lmao. Double speed doesn’t mean shit when you threaten no damage, it really struggles to pick up kills at +2 and lando-t is everywhere so it's usually at +1. Don’t.

Blacephalon- needs specs because it dies if the opponent survives, needs scarf to outspeed all of the mons who outspeed and ohko, needs to be able to switch moves in order to not get hard walled. Sub Z move borders on usable but it severely outclassed by the many other substitute z wall breakers/sweepers. Tears apart teams without a check but completely useless when any of its extremely common checks show up.

Ninetales-A- aurora veil is broken. This mon is good at setting up aurora veil and immediately dying. Maybe useful over a normal screens lead on HO?

Pinsir-M- there’s so many better sweepers and so many better megas. Can clean up teams but it’s so so outclassed.

D Tier


Keldeo- severely outclassed by a million better cm/scarf/specs mons. Water/Fighting is a really bad stab combo in this tier and leaves it with many weaknesses, which combined with its poor bulk leave it doing little damage and being easily killed in return. Considering that Altaria-M and Latias are the 2 best mons in UU and can easily shrug off its attacks and ohko in return, I genuinely think it’s worth testing there.

Tangrowth- AV sucks. Rocky helmet means you have a mon with terrible defensive typing and no special bulk just so that it can wall some physical attackers. Have yet to encounter a match in which it accomplishes anything.


There are a number of viable mons I didn’t rank, and that is simply because I have little to no experience using them or fighting them. Feel free to let me know what parts of this you disagree with- I’m probably one of the least knowledgeable and experienced players in this forum so I’d love to discuss.
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Edit: this isn’t enough change for me to make a new tier list but I overrated Latias-M, I’d probably bump it down to mid-A. Obviously still very very good but CM is nowhere near as invincible as I thought it was. Status is a bitch.
 
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My thoughts on the tier currently. Granted, my perspective is going to be heavily skewed because 1. I peaked at 1524 and hover around mid-high 1400’s, which I’d like to think is decent but certainly not great and 2. I’ve only played on ladder thus far, so my tier list is going to be affected by latter trends. Obviously I am far from a top player and my views have plenty of bias, but I didn’t figure there was any harm in sharing.

S Tier

Mag- Doesn’t need explaining. Best mon in the tier. Every set (save AV) is incredibly powerful and capable of single-handedly dismantling teams. The one saving grace of seeing Mag damn near every game on the ladder has been that the most popular set is AV, which isn’t particularly great.

Pex- Again, a mon that requires no explanation. Its only real problem is that it can kinda get 4MSS from picking between Toxic, Scald, Haze, Recover, Knock Off, T spikes, Baneful Bunker, etc. Regardless, those first 4 moves give you a consistent check to the majority of the offensive threats in the tier.

Gliscor- I’ve grown to hate this thing so much. Toxic Heal+Reliable recovery should never have been a thing. It’s an incredible rocks setter. It’s an incredible defogger. It’s an incredible bulky SD sweeper. Immune to getting ohko’d unless you really fuck up its EVs. Toxic lets it outlast pretty much every pokemon in the tier, be they offensive or defensive. Protect on this thing makes you feel like you’ve been toxic poisoned irl

A+ Tier

Latias-M- would be #2-3 in the tier if not for opportunity cost of being a mega. Utility is definitely good, but CM is what gets it this high. It’s incredible bulk lets it switch in all game, and then it just sweeps with the disgusting damage of stored power. If you can fit heal bell/aromatherapy on your team, this thing becomes borderline unstoppable.

Lando-T- It’s great at role compression, but other mons can do a lot of its roles better. Intimidate is the main reason it’s this high- it allows the defensive set to check pretty much every physical attacker in the tier while still having a strong EQ and rocks, and it allows scarf to be even safer when RKing mons that outspeed/have prio. Offensive Stealth Rock is worse Garchomp, don’t use it.

Clef- Just a very solid utility mon. Toxic/twave shuts down pretty much anything that poses a threat to it, CM is a really nice way to threaten mons that don’t win or lose against unboosted clef, it has a shit ton of coverage, and reliable recovery. Only issues are 4MSS, and the fact that unaware relies on Wish+Protect. Don’t use unaware.


Greninja-Ash- As long as you have one of its checks around, it’s a dead slot. The instant you don’t, you lose. Only this low because its checks are all very viable and common mons, but most teams only pack one and once it transforms, it can just wear down its checks until it can brute force its way through your entire team.


A Tier

Heatran- SpDef shrugs off every attack not named EQ. Magma Storm would be broken asf if it hit the opponent, but it’s bulky enough to afford the occasional miss. Great SR mon. Uses Z moves well but once you pop the z move, it's too slow to be a good offensive mon. SpA is ridiculous enough that it's kinda worth it.

Kart- Band pretty much auto wins vs teams that can't outspeed it. Scarf is very solid wallbreaker/sweeper, and utility is suprisingly useful considering its poor bulk. SD feels like overkill, you're dropping things left and right anyways so you'd rather the immediate power of band or the better speed of scarf.

Ferro- great hazard setter, punishes rapid spin, beats most defoggers, power whip and gyro ball do surprising damage, leech seed beats pretty much everything that can't 2hko.

Koko- Fast as hell and does damage. Specs is obviously the best set but physical electrium z is far from bad, ohkoing chansey is pretty fucking cool.

Manaphy- Tail Glow is downright oppressive. It's almost like a better protean gren in the sense that you pretty much get to pick your counters with your coverage options. in rain this thing WILL kill anything that doesn't kill it beforehand.

Chansey- "It's Super Effective! Chansey lost 12% of it's health"
Pex if it was invincible specially, mediocre physically, and had a worse movepool.

Torn-T- Z-move>rocky helmet, the nuke is much more valuable than the bulk (it doesn’t take hits super well anyways). best defogger in the tier, has regenerator, fast, good damage. Not a ton to say. You know why Torn-T is good.

Rotom-W- WoW lets this thing beat every physical attacker in the tier. Electric/Water is one of the best typings in the game, and it’s even more broken with levitate.

A- Tier
Skarm- Very very good, but it just has no way to make progress against mons it can't status. Obv setting up spikes is very threatening but SM hazard removal is a bitch, and too many good mons threaten it for me to put it any higher.

Tapu Lele- if it had that garchomp speed tier it would be A+/S, deadly pokemon but its just a touch too slow to be top tier. Scarf doesn't hit quite hard enough to tear apart teams the way specs does, and psychic/fairy is a pretty poor offensive typing which allows a lot of faster mons to kill specs. CM has same issue but even worse since it has to set up. Still, it hits so damn hard I can't put it any lower than this.

Victini- obv Z-celebrate stored power is a great sweeper (very fast, surprisingly bulky, hits like a bomb) but CB is underrated, resists take 40% minimum from V-create. bolt strike kills nearly everything that v-create doesn't. the unpredictability of guessing between band or z-celebrate is terrifying. scarf is useful for deleting a specific mon w/ final gambit but otherwise sucks.

mawile-m- DISGUSTING damage. highest attack stat of all time when factoring in huge power. sucker punch hits hard enough to overlook speed issues and swords dance turns the damage calulator into a cookie clicker simulator. Surprisingly solid defensively despite low hp due to good defensive stats+one of the best defensive typings in the game.

reuniclus- unless you taunt it, it has a genuinely horrifying number of winning matchups. if you see this thing in TR it's over. hits like an 18 wheeler and is confirmed to have survived several nuclear bombs.

zard x- only this low because the choice between dragon claw and roost is just so impossible. SR weakness+flare blitz recoil wears this thing down fast as hell, it absoultely needs roost to function, but it loses to one too many common defensive mons without dragon claw simply because of their typing. still, good speed tier and flare blitz will 2hko most resists at +1.

volc- matchup moth likes having gems on crack. bulky qd wins the game once you eliminate any physical attacker on the opponents team that can outdamage roost.

ditto- this tier has more setup sweepers than james bond has STDs.

tapu bulu- actually pretty terrifying. band lowkey sucks against any team that has a good wood hammer switchin. SD would put this thing a tier or 2 higher if it weren't for Torn-T. Bulk Up would be really good if grass/fairy was good defensively.

garchomp- might be the best sr setter in the tier. you have to guess whether its dragonium z or rockium z and guessing wrong will lose you games. plenty of other good sets but offensive sr stands out as the best. tank is solid but unless you really like phazing, just use lando. chain chomp is underrated.

alakazam-m- CM is terrifying if you let it set up, but recover+3 attacks isn't too hard to deal with. running any slightly bulky psychic resist with a decently strong physical attack means you can take one attack and ohko in return. still, punches massive holes against teams that don't have a healthy check. also helps that it's the fastest relevant mon in the entire tier (unless you play at 1100, at which point you may have to deal with ninjask from people who either aren’t playing to win or are under the age of 12)

lopunny-m- physical alakazam. big damage, fast asf, but lacks boosting options and thus will inevitably encounter something it can't kill, and it will die when that happens. also sucks that all of its moves make contact, zapdos is this thing's worst nightmare

B+ Tier
Pelipper and Swampert-M- ranked together because both are useless without the other. I’ve found rain to be very good, and thus these two rank highly. the only consistent gameplan I've found against rain is to kill pelipper as fast as humanly possible and then switch between fini and lando against swampert until rain disappears.

Protean Greninja- this thing would be so good if its moves hit the opponent. It's too weak to rely on accurate moves, and I've seen a very large number of games (both using and against gren) that were lost to a missed hydro pump or gunk shot. Massively, massively rng reliant but when it works, it fucking WORKS. Picking who to switch into this thing has a tendency to end in a dead mon.

Amoongus- Spore+Regenerator. Usable stats. Take a fucking guess.

TTar-M- if rock had usable stab this thing would be A/A-. Incredibly bulky setup sweeper with disgusting attack but all of its moves have very low BP and stone edge is just atrocious (why did anyone at GF think base 100bp on a mid typing had to be balanced by causing you to lose ⅕ games?)

Celesteela- autotomize sweeper is pretty bad, sub/protect leech borders on immortal. Really good defensive typing, good defensive stats, solid coverage. Not a ton to say.

Kyu-B- can and will ohko resists with icium-z. Fusion bolt hits hard as hell and is good coverage. Ironically, you don’t usually see dragon stab on this thing because it needs ice beam, earth power, fusion bolt, and freeze shock for z move. You could try dropping freeze shock for outrage/dragon claw and running a different item but I don’t know how well that would go.

Medicham-M- Lopunny-M if it was slightly less frail, slower, and wayyyy stronger. Doesn’t appreciate lando-t being more common than oxygen (I know it has ice punch but unless you predict the lando switch in, HJK does nothing).

B Tier

Slowbro(-M)- It’s weird ranking these 2. Base slowbro is better due to regenerator, but it appreciates being able to skyrocket its defence at any moment and there isn’t a ton of opportunity cost to running slowbronite. Regardless, very solid defensive presence with good utility. CM Mega slowbro can be terrifying.

Serp- Bigger matchup fish than matchup moth. Terrible coverage, has to pick what it’s hardwalled by, and can really only glare/leech seed against bad matchups. Still, it’s fast and contrary leaf storm is broken.

Exca- broken in sand, meh otherwise. Usable lead but I feel like it’s definitely the weakest link in the team I used to rank up because the lead set (aka the only non-sand set) just isn’t particularly great, but it has a niche as the only sr setter with rapid spin.

Sableye-M- very very very annoying, but its bulk is only good compared to most defensive mons which means it can simply be overwhelmed by strong attackers. Still, magic bounce+WoW+recover is about as good as you think it is.

Hippowdon- Really bulky, has reliable recovery, has yawn, sets rocks. Is really passive outside of yawn but it’s bulky enough that not much can threaten it. Better at keeping sand up than ttar.

TTar- pursuit, sand, and god tier stat distribution carry its god awful typing and god awful stab.

Azumarill- very strong, but cb isn’t too bad to switch into and belly drum requires a lot of its checks to be put into +6 aqua jet range.

Tapu Fini- this thing would be A- if it had reliable recovery. Really good defogger with decent damage and good coverage with its stabs, and switches into damn near every special attacker in the tier.

B- Tier

Zapdos- too passive for my liking, doesn’t do enough damage without significant SpA investment and Tbolt/Roost/Toxic/HP Ice or Heat Wave is good but gets hard walled by heatran (and a few others depending on the coverage move it picks) which is a big deal. Do not try to run defog on this thing, it doesn’t have enough moves as is.

Zard Y- extremely powerful but its coverage is very easy to switch into. 4x rocks weakness makes it really hard to justify over the numerous better megas in the tier.

Diancie-M- magic bounce is really good, but it isn’t strong enough to make up for its terrible defensive typing. Still does a lot of damage and can keep rocks off.

Kommo-O- clangorous soulblaze is kinda just worse z-celebrate victini, and belly drum is very hard to facilitate but wins the game once it sets up.

Gyarados- Kind of a matchup fish, but can still punch a lot of holes midgame against teams it can’t sweep. Needs moxie to sweep which leaves it wanting for power before it gets +3 or so

Gyarados-M- I mean it’s a good setup sweeper with sub but you’d rather just use a better mega or a better ddancer.

Scizor-M- loses to a lot of the tier, pretty much just ends up being worse kartana (swords dance or utility) but without the option of choice sets. Still very strong and bulky so it’s here.

Magnezone- sub z move is terrifying, scarf is ok but there really aren’t enough steel types worth trapping. EQ is everywhere tho which is really bad on a mon this slow. Has to choose between HP ice or fire and both are sorely missed when not in use.

Mew- decent utility but it doesn’t accomplish much outside of WoW and defog. Bad defensive typing

C+ Tier

Cresselia- bad defensive typing doesn’t matter when you have the greatest defensive stats of all time. The best setter/support on TR teams but TR is a very niche style so it ends up here

Marowak-A- the swampert to cress’ pelipper. Outspeeds and ohkos pretty much the entire tier under TR but has very little use outside of TR.

Bisharp- not bulky enough to handle the onslaught of fire, fighting, and ground attacks flying around the tier, not strong enough to threaten without setting up. Defiant+Sucker Punch make this thing capable of putting in work but things have to go really well for you.

C Tier

Hawlucha- this thing is so bad lmao. Double speed doesn’t mean shit when you threaten no damage, it really struggles to pick up kills at +2 and lando-t is everywhere so it's usually at +1. Don’t.

Blacephalon- needs specs to do enough damage to not get ohkod by anything that survives, needs scarf to outspeed all of the mons who outspeed and ohko, needs to be able to switch moves in order to not get hard walled. Tears apart teams without a check but completely useless when any of its extremely common checks show up.

Ninetales-A- aurora veil is broken. This mon is good at setting up aurora veil and immediately dying. Maybe useful over a normal screens lead on HO?

Pinsir-M- there’s so many better sweepers and so many better megas. Can clean up teams but it’s so so outclassed.

D Tier


Keldeo- god awful calm mind user. god awful specs user. god awful scarf user. Just because it’s fast and strong doesn’t mean its good. tbh considering that Altaria-M and Latias are the 2 best mons in UU, I might even argue its worth testing there.

Tangrowth- AV sucks. Rocky helmet means you have a mon with terrible defensive typing and no special bulk just so that it can wall some physical attackers. Have yet to encounter a match in which it accomplishes anything.


There are a number of viable mons I didn’t rank, and that is simply because I have little to no experience using them or fighting them. Feel free to let me know what parts of this you disagree with- I’m probably one of the least knowledgeable and experienced players in this forum so I’d love to discuss.
personally I'd put mega gyarados at the bottom of B-. In my experience, you miss water stab but you need sub to actually get to a game winning position and the sample set just isn't fast enough to not die to scarf kart
 
personally I'd put mega gyarados at the bottom of B-. In my experience, you miss water stab but you need sub to actually get to a game winning position and the sample set just isn't fast enough to not die to scarf kart
I put Gyarados-M in B- and specifically mentioned its sub set. The sample set also ditches waterfall for substitute and runs max speed so I’m not really sure what you’re talking about.
 
Last edited:

Yxzwilliam

Banned deucer.
My thoughts on the tier currently. Granted, my perspective is going to be heavily skewed because 1. I peaked at 1524 and hover around mid-high 1400’s, which I’d like to think is decent but certainly not great and 2. I’ve only played on ladder thus far, so my tier list is going to be affected by latter trends. Obviously I am far from a top player and my views have plenty of bias, but I didn’t figure there was any harm in sharing.

S Tier

Mag- Doesn’t need explaining. Best mon in the tier. Every set (save AV) is incredibly powerful and capable of single-handedly dismantling teams. The one saving grace of seeing Mag damn near every game on the ladder has been that the most popular set is AV, which isn’t particularly great.

Pex- Again, a mon that requires no explanation. Its only real problem is that it can kinda get 4MSS from picking between Toxic, Scald, Haze, Recover, Knock Off, T spikes, Baneful Bunker, etc. Regardless, those first 4 moves give you a consistent check to the majority of the offensive threats in the tier.

Gliscor- I’ve grown to hate this thing so much. Toxic Heal+Reliable recovery should never have been a thing. It’s an incredible rocks setter. It’s an incredible defogger. It’s an incredible bulky SD sweeper. Immune to getting ohko’d unless you really fuck up its EVs. Toxic lets it outlast pretty much every pokemon in the tier, be they offensive or defensive. Protect on this thing makes you feel like you’ve been toxic poisoned irl

A+ Tier

Latias-M- would be #2-3 in the tier if not for opportunity cost of being a mega. Utility is definitely good, but CM is what gets it this high. It’s incredible bulk lets it switch in all game, and then it just sweeps with the disgusting damage of stored power. If you can fit heal bell/aromatherapy on your team, this thing becomes borderline unstoppable.

Lando-T- It’s great at role compression, but other mons can do a lot of its roles better. Intimidate is the main reason it’s this high- it allows the defensive set to check pretty much every physical attacker in the tier while still having a strong EQ and rocks, and it allows scarf to be even safer when RKing mons that outspeed/have prio. Offensive Stealth Rock is worse Garchomp, don’t use it.

Clef- Just a very solid utility mon. Toxic/twave shuts down pretty much anything that poses a threat to it, CM is a really nice way to threaten mons that don’t win or lose against unboosted clef, it has a shit ton of coverage, and reliable recovery. Only issues are 4MSS, and the fact that unaware relies on Wish+Protect. Don’t use unaware.


Greninja-Ash- As long as you have one of its checks around, it’s a dead slot. The instant you don’t, you lose. Only this low because its checks are all very viable and common mons, but most teams only pack one and once it transforms, it can just wear down its checks until it can brute force its way through your entire team.


A Tier

Heatran- SpDef shrugs off every attack not named EQ. Magma Storm would be broken asf if it hit the opponent, but it’s bulky enough to afford the occasional miss. Great SR mon. Uses Z moves well but once you pop the z move, it's too slow to be a good offensive mon. SpA is ridiculous enough that it's kinda worth it.

Kart- Band pretty much auto wins vs teams that can't outspeed it. Scarf is very solid wallbreaker/sweeper, and utility is suprisingly useful considering its poor bulk. SD feels like overkill, you're dropping things left and right anyways so you'd rather the immediate power of band or the better speed of scarf.

Ferro- great hazard setter, punishes rapid spin, beats most defoggers, power whip and gyro ball do surprising damage, leech seed beats pretty much everything that can't 2hko.

Koko- Fast as hell and does damage. Specs is obviously the best set but physical electrium z is far from bad, ohkoing chansey is pretty fucking cool.

Manaphy- Tail Glow is downright oppressive. It's almost like a better protean gren in the sense that you pretty much get to pick your counters with your coverage options. in rain this thing WILL kill anything that doesn't kill it beforehand.

Chansey- "It's Super Effective! Chansey lost 12% of it's health"
Pex if it was invincible specially, mediocre physically, and had a worse movepool.

Torn-T- Z-move>rocky helmet, the nuke is much more valuable than the bulk (it doesn’t take hits super well anyways). best defogger in the tier, has regenerator, fast, good damage. Not a ton to say. You know why Torn-T is good.

Rotom-W- WoW lets this thing beat every physical attacker in the tier. Electric/Water is one of the best typings in the game, and it’s even more broken with levitate.

A- Tier
Skarm- Very very good, but it just has no way to make progress against mons it can't status. Obv setting up spikes is very threatening but SM hazard removal is a bitch, and too many good mons threaten it for me to put it any higher.

Tapu Lele- if it had that garchomp speed tier it would be A+/S, deadly pokemon but its just a touch too slow to be top tier. Scarf doesn't hit quite hard enough to tear apart teams the way specs does, and psychic/fairy is a pretty poor offensive typing which allows a lot of faster mons to kill specs. CM has same issue but even worse since it has to set up. Still, it hits so damn hard I can't put it any lower than this.

Victini- obv Z-celebrate stored power is a great sweeper (very fast, surprisingly bulky, hits like a bomb) but CB is underrated, resists take 40% minimum from V-create. bolt strike kills nearly everything that v-create doesn't. the unpredictability of guessing between band or z-celebrate is terrifying. scarf is useful for deleting a specific mon w/ final gambit but otherwise sucks.

Mawile-M- DISGUSTING damage. highest attack stat of all time when factoring in huge power. sucker punch hits hard enough to overlook speed issues and swords dance turns the damage calulator into a cookie clicker simulator. Surprisingly solid defensively despite low hp due to good defensive stats+one of the best defensive typings in the game.

Reuniclus- unless you taunt it, it has a genuinely horrifying number of winning matchups. if you see this thing in TR it's over. hits like an 18 wheeler and is confirmed to have survived several nuclear bombs.

Zard X- only this low because the choice between dragon claw and roost is just so impossible. SR weakness+flare blitz recoil wears this thing down fast as hell, it absoultely needs roost to function, but it loses to one too many common defensive mons without dragon claw simply because of their typing. still, good speed tier and flare blitz will 2hko most resists at +1.

Volc- matchup moth likes having gems on crack. bulky qd wins the game once you eliminate any physical attacker on the opponents team that can outdamage roost.

Ditto- this tier has more setup sweepers than james bond has STDs.

Tapu Bulu- actually pretty terrifying. band lowkey sucks against any team that has a good wood hammer switchin. SD would put this thing a tier or 2 higher if it weren't for Torn-T. Bulk Up would be really good if grass/fairy was good defensively.

Garchomp- might be the best sr setter in the tier. you have to guess whether its dragonium z or rockium z and guessing wrong will lose you games. plenty of other good sets but offensive sr stands out as the best. tank is solid but unless you really like phazing, just use lando. chain chomp is underrated.

Alakazam-M- CM is terrifying if you let it set up, but recover+3 attacks isn't too hard to deal with. running any slightly bulky psychic resist with a decently strong physical attack means you can take one attack and ohko in return. still, punches massive holes against teams that don't have a healthy check. also helps that it's the fastest relevant mon in the entire tier (unless you play at 1100, at which point you may have to deal with ninjask from people who either aren’t playing to win or are under the age of 12)

Lopunny-M- physical alakazam. big damage, fast asf, but lacks boosting options and thus will inevitably encounter something it can't kill, and it will die when that happens. also sucks that all of its moves make contact, zapdos is this thing's worst nightmare

B+ Tier
Pelipper and Swampert-M- ranked together because both are useless without the other. I’ve found rain to be very good, and thus these two rank highly. the only consistent gameplan I've found against rain is to kill pelipper as fast as humanly possible and then switch between fini and lando against swampert until rain disappears.

Protean Greninja- this thing would be so good if its moves hit the opponent. It's too weak to rely on accurate moves, and I've seen a very large number of games (both using and against gren) that were lost to a missed hydro pump or gunk shot. Massively, massively rng reliant but when it works, it fucking WORKS. Picking who to switch into this thing has a tendency to end in a dead mon.

Amoongus- Spore+Regenerator. Usable stats. Take a fucking guess.

TTar-M- if rock had usable stab this thing would be A/A-. Incredibly bulky setup sweeper with disgusting attack but all of its moves have very low BP and stone edge is just atrocious (why did anyone at GF think base 100bp on a mid typing had to be balanced by causing you to lose ⅕ games?)

Celesteela- autotomize sweeper is pretty bad, sub/protect leech borders on immortal. Really good defensive typing, good defensive stats, solid coverage. Not a ton to say.

Kyu-B- can and will ohko resists with icium-z. Fusion bolt hits hard as hell and is good coverage. Ironically, you don’t usually see dragon stab on this thing because it needs ice beam, earth power, fusion bolt, and freeze shock for z move. You could try dropping freeze shock for outrage/dragon claw and running a different item but I don’t know how well that would go.

Medicham-M- Lopunny-M if it was slightly less frail, slower, and wayyyy stronger. Doesn’t appreciate lando-t being more common than oxygen (I know it has ice punch but unless you predict the lando switch in, HJK does nothing).

B Tier

Slowbro(-M)- It’s weird ranking these 2. Base slowbro is better due to regenerator, but it appreciates being able to skyrocket its defence at any moment and there isn’t a ton of opportunity cost to running slowbronite. Regardless, very solid defensive presence with good utility. CM Mega slowbro can be terrifying.

Serp- Bigger matchup fish than matchup moth. Terrible coverage, has to pick what it’s hardwalled by, and can really only glare/leech seed against bad matchups. Still, it’s fast and contrary leaf storm is broken.

Exca- broken in sand, meh otherwise. Usable lead but I feel like it’s definitely the weakest link in the team I used to rank up because the lead set (aka the only non-sand set) just isn’t particularly great, but it has a niche as the only sr setter with rapid spin.

Sableye-M- very very very annoying, but its bulk is only good compared to most defensive mons which means it can simply be overwhelmed by strong attackers. Still, magic bounce+WoW+recover is about as good as you think it is.

Hippowdon- Really bulky, has reliable recovery, has yawn, sets rocks. Is really passive outside of yawn but it’s bulky enough that not much can threaten it. Better at keeping sand up than ttar.

TTar- pursuit, sand, and god tier stat distribution carry its god awful typing and god awful stab.

Azumarill- very strong, but cb isn’t too bad to switch into and belly drum requires a lot of its checks to be put into +6 aqua jet range.

Tapu Fini- this thing would be A- if it had reliable recovery. Really good defogger with decent damage and good coverage with its stabs, and switches into damn near every special attacker in the tier.

B- Tier

Zapdos- too passive for my liking, doesn’t do enough damage without significant SpA investment and Tbolt/Roost/Toxic/HP Ice or Heat Wave is good but gets hard walled by heatran (and a few others depending on the coverage move it picks) which is a big deal. Do not try to run defog on this thing, it doesn’t have enough moves as is.

Zard Y- extremely powerful but its coverage is very easy to switch into. 4x rocks weakness makes it really hard to justify over the numerous better megas in the tier.

Diancie-M- magic bounce is really good, but it isn’t strong enough to make up for its terrible defensive typing. Still does a lot of damage and can keep rocks off.

Kommo-O- clangorous soulblaze is kinda just worse z-celebrate victini, and belly drum is very hard to facilitate but wins the game once it sets up.

Gyarados- Kind of a matchup fish, but can still punch a lot of holes midgame against teams it can’t sweep. Needs moxie to sweep which leaves it wanting for power before it gets +3 or so

Gyarados-M- I mean it’s a good setup sweeper with sub but you’d rather just use a better mega or a better ddancer.

Scizor-M- loses to a lot of the tier, pretty much just ends up being worse kartana (swords dance or utility) but without the option of choice sets. Still very strong and bulky so it’s here.

Magnezone- sub z move is terrifying, scarf is ok but there really aren’t enough steel types worth trapping. EQ is everywhere tho which is really bad on a mon this slow. Has to use HP fire so no HP ice, which means losing to most ground types in the tier

Mew- decent utility but it doesn’t accomplish much outside of WoW and defog. Bad defensive typing

C+ Tier

Cresselia- bad defensive typing doesn’t matter when you have the greatest defensive stats of all time. The best setter/support on TR teams but TR is a very niche style so it ends up here

Marowak-A- the swampert to cress’ pelipper. Outspeeds and ohkos pretty much the entire tier under TR but has very little use outside of TR.

Bisharp- not bulky enough to handle the onslaught of fire, fighting, and ground attacks flying around the tier, not strong enough to threaten without setting up. Defiant+Sucker Punch make this thing capable of putting in work but things have to go really well for you.

C Tier

Hawlucha- this thing is so bad lmao. Double speed doesn’t mean shit when you threaten no damage, it really struggles to pick up kills at +2 and lando-t is everywhere so it's usually at +1. Don’t.

Blacephalon- needs specs because it dies if the opponent survives, needs scarf to outspeed all of the mons who outspeed and ohko, needs to be able to switch moves in order to not get hard walled. Sub Z move borders on usable but it severely outclassed by the many other substitute z wall breakers/sweepers. Tears apart teams without a check but completely useless when any of its extremely common checks show up.

Ninetales-A- aurora veil is broken. This mon is good at setting up aurora veil and immediately dying. Maybe useful over a normal screens lead on HO?

Pinsir-M- there’s so many better sweepers and so many better megas. Can clean up teams but it’s so so outclassed.

D Tier


Keldeo- severely outclassed by a million better cm/scarf/specs mons. Water/Fighting is a really bad stab combo in this tier and leaves it with many weaknesses, which combined with its poor bulk leave it doing little damage and being easily killed in return. Considering that Altaria-M and Latias are the 2 best mons in UU and can easily shrug off its attacks and ohko in return, I genuinely think it’s worth testing there.

Tangrowth- AV sucks. Rocky helmet means you have a mon with terrible defensive typing and no special bulk just so that it can wall some physical attackers. Have yet to encounter a match in which it accomplishes anything.


There are a number of viable mons I didn’t rank, and that is simply because I have little to no experience using them or fighting them. Feel free to let me know what parts of this you disagree with- I’m probably one of the least knowledgeable and experienced players in this forum so I’d love to discuss.View attachment 562419 Edit: this isn’t enough change for me to make a new tier list but I overrated Latias-M, I’d probably bump it down to mid-A. Obviously still very very good but CM is nowhere near as invincible as I thought it was. Status is a bitch.
i feel this is respectable
 

Skypenguin

Skype (nguin)
is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a defending SPL Champion
Moderator
Yo, I wanted to share my thoughts in the form of another post-spl VR post. I feel like we're seeing the meta change a lot, and also think I'm finally understanding this tier more


S RANK

S rank


:Magearna: Magearna

S- Rank

:Landorus-Therian: Landorus-Therian
:Toxapex: Toxapex - I still feel the same way about pex - very powerful yet kinda difficult to fit. I definitely am not convinced by a lot of old glis pex teams, but I found some new ways to load the mon, esp with seismitoad in spl. Tspikes are such a great tool that it feels like a waste to drop them sometimes, even when other moves fit better

A RANK

A+ rank


:Kartana: Kartana
:Charizard-Mega-X: Mega Charizard X - last year I said it could be prepped against - I take that back. I even used physically defensive SD thanks to Winstonred, which is a very cool set
:Heatran: Heatran - I didn't use this mon a single time, but a lot of my teams toward the end were particularly weak to tran and I was reminded how dangerous it can be
:Gliscor: Gliscor - Probably still one of the scariest mons and very meta-defining, but it might be even more exploitable than I previously thought. This SPL, I found myself faced with 9 players out to counterteam my Latias spamming tendencies, and it's extremely hard to have a solid matchup into extreme playstyles like HO, psyspam, and rain while using Gliscor. The only one I used this year didn't have facade or roost lmao, it was Ahsan's old eq/rocks/defog/taunt set on an offensive team. It does still work on fat obviously, but I ended up using seismitoad even more than gliscor just because it's easier to take on mons like koko and rotom without dedicating additional team slots (toad is frail but it's not like glis is checking stuff like lando can anyway)
:Latias-Mega: Mega Latias - This mon got used what, 7 times all SPL? I brought 4 Latias and 1 Latios just by myself last season... It's still a great no-BS mon with incredible role compression, being able to handle gliscor, but it can struggle against hard stall and when it's explicitly prepped for. Personally, I avoided using it because I expected to face a bunch of dark types, and Cress can somewhat fill a similar role while being fatter.
:Kyurem-Black: Kyurem-Black - a big reason why a lot of fat teams struggle. I remember a couple years ago I was trying to find replays of kyub teams in officials, and there really weren't that many. Now, people have realized how strong a mon it is, that you can use extremely fat and slow sets on offense as a non-passive defensive backbone with 700bst, and in general are able to fit it on teams more easily. You can even use wacky sets; disregarding all the spdef and physdef kyubs, stuff like sub endeavor @ metronome which I adapted from the ladder is usable
:Chansey: Chansey
:Tapu-Koko: Tapu Koko
:Greninja: Greninja / Ash-Greninja
:Ferrothorn: Ferrothorn

A rank

:Cresselia: Cresselia - I've hyped up cress before, but it's legitimately become a mon that lands on half the bulky teams I build nowadays. It's just sooooooooo fat! I'm a big fan of psychic types in general, and cress is medicham/specs lele's final boss. CM lets you take on pretty much every opposing CMer from magearna to koko to reuni if you manage pp correctly — no other medicham answer is able to overcome their passivity like this (and even counter gliscor!). CM is by far the best set, but I also like spatk invested fsight as well as established sets like TR lunar.
:Tornadus-Therian: Tornadus-Therian
:Tapu-Lele:Tapu Lele - this mon can actually fit on a couple teams, and when it does it's super strong
:Volcarona: Volcarona - meh, still kinda busted but no one loses to volc these days by virtue of always being prepared for it
:Diancie-Mega: Mega Diancie
:Medicham-Mega: Mega Medicham - only dropping it here because cress is so good, medi can be unfair
:Weavile: Weavile
:Serperior: Serperior
:Kommo-o: Kommo-o
:Excadrill: Excadrill

A- rank

:Alakazam-Mega: Mega Alakazam - yeah this mon sucks
:Mawile-Mega: Mega Mawile - I should've listened to Tricking, this mon is troll
:Clefable: Clefable
:Rotom-Wash: Rotom-Wash - I've never built many teams with rotom, and I haven't used it much recently. You can get punished for not running any rotom, but there's a bunch of other strong stuff you could be using instead - idk. always annoying to play against tho
:Victini: Victini
:Hawlucha: Hawlucha
:Manaphy: Manaphy
:Swampert-Mega: Mega Swampert
:Tyranitar-Mega: Mega Tyranitar - really good, but haven't seen it on a good team
:Tapu Fini: Tapu Fini - pretty cool tbh, I like gorgie's modest wiki cm defog set

B RANK

B+ rank


:Scizor-Mega: Mega Scizor
:Lopunny-Mega: Mega Lopunny - I actually like this mon a bit, unlike most people. It's not as weak as it seems (though it is undeniably not strong enough on its own), and it can run cool 4th moves like secret power for para+sleep, and the surprisingly viable copycat
:Garchomp: Garchomp
:Magnezone: Magnezone
:Skarmory: Skarmory
:Slowbro: Slowbro
:Charizard-Mega-Y: Mega Charizard Y
:Latios-Mega: Mega Latios
:Tapu-Bulu:Tapu Bulu

B rank

:Seismitoad: Seismitoad - I was never actually a toad believer, but it's honestly hard not to use on balance as of late. Refresh is pretty epic and it has some great role compression with rocks
:Pelipper: Pelipper - magearna rain isn't bad tbh
:dragonite: Dragonite - sub z owns, physdef lefties dd bossnite is good but hard to fit
:Ditto: Ditto
:Hydreigon: Hydreigon
:Kyurem: Kyurem - similarly to kyub, super fat sets also work on this guy. Dtail is another cool option with tspikes
:Slowbro-Mega: Mega Slowbro
:Garchomp-Mega: Mega Garchomp - cool mon. 4 attack on sand is still great, but I also like SR/eq/dtail/fireblast, as well as SD aqua tail
:Gastrodon: Gastrodon
:Celesteela: Celesteela

B- rank

:Hoopa-Unbound: Hoopa-Unbound
:Gyarados-Mega: Mega Gyarados - always scary for unprepared bulky teams
:Zapdos: Zapdos
:Heracross-Mega: Mega Heracross - Gorgie has taught us that hera is impossible to wall without a ton of 50/50s; amazing breaker on TR and even without
:Reuniclus: Reuniclus - mid alert (cress is better)
:Thundurus-Therian: Thundurus-Therian
:Pinsir-Mega: Mega Pinsir
:Sableye-Mega: Mega Sableye
:Hippowdon: Hippowdon
:Jirachi: Jirachi
:Keldeo-Resolute: Keldeo
:volcanion: Volcanion - lots of options here, even boom

C RANK

C+ Rank


:Gyarados: Gyarados
:Suicune: Suicune
:Tyranitar: Tyranitar
:Blacephalon: Blacephalon
:Crawdaunt: Crawdaunt
:Moltres: Moltres - not as good as I thought
:Aggron-Mega: Mega Aggron - this mon is definitely underexplored - I think with lots of support it can be the centerpiece of a super strong team. The team I used in week 9 vs welliou is kind of the idea - dtail + fsight/tspike as a way to make progress against counters, and hp + status recovery
:Marowak-Alola: Alolan Marowak - another demonic TR threat
:Necrozma: Necrozma - it's basically mew that trades defog and other utility for power. I like Necrozma as a unique tank of a rocker; it's able to counter medicham and lucha, stay in vs rotom/zapdos to click moves, and even fit z over rocky helmet

C rank

:Mew: Mew
:Tangrowth: Tangrowth
:Gengar: Gengar
:Venusaur-Mega: Mega Venusaur
:Breloom: Breloom
:Krookodile: Krookodile
:Aerodactyl-Mega: Mega Aerodactyl
:Amoonguss: Amoonguss
:Bisharp: Bisharp
:Kingdra: Kingdra

C- rank

:altaria-mega: Mega Altaria
:Pyukumuku: Pyukumuku - y'all ain't ready...
:Shedinja: Shedinja
:Sharpedo-Mega: Mega Sharpedo
:Azumarill: Azumarill
:Salamence: Salamence
:Gallade-Mega: Mega Gallade
:mimikyu: Mimikyu
:muk-alola: Alolan Muk
:Porygon-Z: Porygon Z
:camerupt-mega: Mega Camerupt
 
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