Gen 2 Silver Team #2 Please Rate

[jynx KB]

Ok, so I went from a fanboy simply wanting to use his favorite Pokemon to someone interested in a seriously competitive team. For that, I have a whole new line up designed to be as cheap as possible, even including both of the most notorious combos of the GSC era. All of these Pokemon will have leftovers, except for one, and I'll cover that when I get there.

Cloyster

-Clamp
-Screech
-Explosion
-Spikes

Cloyster is back, though this time he's more of a utility Pokemon. This is a temporary set I'm trying out, and I may switch back to Starmie. I'm not desperate to keep Ice Beam, but it is a good attack and provides STAB. I'll write more here when I practically see how it works, but it sure looks fun on paper. This thing may have a short lifespan, but man is it fun! Great suggestion. Changed back to the lead, as it was mostly a one strategy wonder. At least this way it takes something down with it. Now it can set up Spikes before Clamping, Screeching, and Exploding.

Jolteon

-Thunderbolt
-Hidden Power Water
-Agility
-Baton Pass

Again, it's standard for the JoltWak combo, but there is nothing wrong with this. In fact, Baton Passing helps multiple members of the team. I just wish I found a place for Thunder Wave. In fact, Paralysis in general is lacking on the team. Aside from his Passing abilities, Jolteon acts as a pseudo Surfing Pikachu with both Thunderbolt and Hidden Power Water, covering its ground weakness.


Gengar

-Thunderbolt
-Explosion
-Ice Punch
-Mean Look

A twist on the lead Gengar. Explosion is nearly standard. Mean Look was recently added to prevent switches in general and make things easier for me. I didn't like Hypnosis's shaky accuracy, and I had some trouble finding a good fourth move. Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. I was really hoping for Perish Song, but it isn't compatible with Explosion. With no Ice attacks on Cloyster anymore, I went back to BoltBeam coverage. Any other suggestions would be nice, as the only other move I can think of in this slot would be Giga Drain.

Snorlax (Gerald)

-Body Slam
-Belly Drum
-Earthquake
-Fire Blast

As good of a combo as it may be, BlisSkarm is more for a defensive team. Leftovers and durability keep this thing around to Belly Drum. Return has been chosen to provide some extra power and not let that maxed attack go to waste Earthquake is just an all around good move to have.The final move kept changing, but I decided on Fire Blast. Double-Edge works, but without Rest, and with Belly Drum it just cuts too far into the HP for comfort. It half depends on the speed boost from Jolteon anyway, so why give into another weakness?

Marowak @ Thick Club

-Swords Dance
-Hidden Power Bug
-Earthquake
-Rock Slide

Basic Nickwak, and why mess with a good thing? Awesome attack score boosted by Swords Dance and supported by a great Physical movepool. Earthquake for STAB, Rock Slide for flyings, and the Hidden Power hits Grass and Psychics.


Steelix

-Roar
-Curse
-Explosion
-Earthquake

With two Steelix suggestions I had to try this one out, and it does work as a Phaser. Earthquake at least gets STAB, and since it wouldn't do much against Flyings anyway other then Explode, there wasn't much point keeping Body Slam around. With Curse cutting Speed, even the bonus of Paralysis wasn't used to its full potential.

Well, here's hoping I can surprise my friends who still raise their teams the casual way. Not that they aren't formidable, but it's my hope that with proper research and techniques put into my team, I can get a step above the casual trainer.

 

[gumnas]

I wouldn't use Blisskarm on that team. They serve no ofensive purposes here for the JoltWak combo, specially Blissey.

 

[Jorgen]

Armed with limited battle experience and some theorymon gleaned from reading posts by some GSC players that seem to know what they're doing, I'll take a crack at this. Hopefully somebody with more credentials can point out any inaccuracies in my analysis.

To reiterate .Maguss.'s advice, the center of your team seems to be Joltwak. Thus, your team is based on fast-paced offense; Blisskarm does nothing to service offensive teams other than by providing free switches for your opponent (which really isn't a service at all).

I'd suggest replacing one of these guys with Gengar. After all, the one thing that consistently shuts down all forms of Joltwak is Roar Raikou, and guess who baits and explodes on Raikou? Gengar does. You could even get gimmicky and run DP on him to keep Ttar at bay.

In addition, might I suggest you replace the other half of Skarmbliss with the obligatory Snorlax? (unless you're avoiding using him out of principle, since Lax is pretty broken.) I'd suggest a bellylax with BS/Return/DE,EQ,Drum,[Filler] (NOT rest). Bellylax is a beast that also works wonders with an agility passed from Joteon. I wouldn't suggest rest without a beller, though, for the same reason you wouldn't want to use blisskarm on a team like this; it slows you down too much and gives your foe free switches. I dunno what else you'd put in that last slot, since LK isn't available in the cartridge (and it's beyond broken, too), but I doubt you'll use that last move too often, so experiment and see what works.

As for Eggy and Cloyster: Eggy seems okay to me, perhaps not the best to use in that slot, but he does resist EQ and shut down most forms of Machamp. He also baits and kills the odd whirlwind Zapdos (which can also shut down your Joltwak combo, to an extent).

However, I'm not so sure about Cloyster. While you can force a lot of switches with Bellylax and Wak, they'll almost always be met with the same switch-in: Skarmory, who's immune to spikes. And if Skarm is dead, well, you'll be OHKOing just about everything anyway, making the Spikes turn a waste of time, really. Perhaps you could run Reflect Starmie in his place to help Jolteon come back in. Maybe you can even run a third sweeper, Machamp, who you can switch in immediately after sending in Gengar to punish Ttar switch-ins. Perhaps Curse + 'splosion Steelix will eliminate that pesky Suicune for you, paving the way for Wak if Jolteon were to fall. Heck, you could ditch the at-best moderately-useful Egg and run both Starmie AND Machamp/Steelix, but if you feel more comfortable with Egg, that's fine, too.

 

[jynx KB]

Edited: Changes in Red. SkarmBliss has been replaced with Gengar and Snorlax as offensive walls. With Gengar changed to the lead, Starmie has replaced Cloyster.

Looking at how the weaknesses have changed, I am looking into replacing Exeggutor with Machamp. I would like some help with the moveset though, as I haven't raised one before, and I don't know what attacks would work in sync with the team.

 

[Jorgen]

A few more comments/suggestions:

If Ubers are allowed, that changes things quite a bit. That gives us a whole slew of superpokemon that haven't really been considered in the prior analysis. Furthermore, I really couldn't tell you anything about what to do in Ubers (other than the fact that Snorlax is still a beast in that environment).

Also, for this team, forget about the concept of "walls", you either play to break them or make them. With JoltWak, you need to concentrate almost obsessively on breaking any walls your opponent might have. I say this because you described Gengar and Snorlax as offensive walls, which they are NOT in this case. Gengar is 'splosion bait for Raikou, and Snorlax is a co-sweeper alongside Marowak.

Jolteon should lead, getting that thing in without forcing it to take damage on the switch is the best way to get the most use out of it. Plus, it threatens an agiliWak sweep right from turn 1.

tbh, I see shadow ball's usefulness primarily for the 2HKO on perish trapping Missy. Even then, you're probably better off running something else in that slot, since lots of things 2-3HKO Missy. Gengar's got nothing on Lugia, even with shadow ball, and Alakazam is like Missy in that it dies to anything, so why dedicate a pokemon's entire moveslot to hitting it?

Flamethrower on Drumlax is silly. You'll do more damage to Skarm with Return and be better off going for the par with BS, tbh. If you want the 2HKO on Skarm, drummed Double-Edge and Fire Blast are the only two things that can do that, and DE is stopped by Curse Skarm, while FB is a bit of a waste with max attack, though it could hit Skarm on the switch and conserve your HP for a Drum, which is nice for a Lax without rest.

Starmie craves Reflect to give Jolteon/whatever a chance to switch in if something goes awry the first time you try to set up. Reflect is the whole reason I suggested it, actually. I know you like the idea of having a non-exploding Ice-type attacker on your team, but your whole strategy revolves around setting up Marowak and Snorlax, and having an ice-type attack in and of itself really does nothing to serve that purpose. Why distract yourself from the whole point of the team with such an unimportant detail?

Egg was okay, swapping him was the least imperative change on my mind, even if he was a bit *meh* on this team. tbh, Machamp was kind of an afterthought my first time through, which is bad, since he's one of those frail big risk/big reward pokemon that requires a team built around him (which usually requires more ghost coverage than a team built around Wak). However, if you're still deadset on using Machamp (and who wouldn't be, Machamp has awesome potential in GSC), for this team I'd actually go with this peculiar set: Cross Chop/Meditate/Rock Slide/HP Ghost (EQ). Meditate b/c Curse will negate potential speed boosts from Jolteon. HP ghost is preferable b/c it hits psychics and ghosts resistant to cross chop, but if that's too hard to get, just go with EQ, I guess.

Remember, the team is nothing without the proper strategy. Here, the strategy is to pass an agility from Jolteon and kill stuff with one of your sweepers. Gengar's there for when Roar Raikou, the stall team's best defense against JoltWak, prevents your offense from executing. Starmie's there to use Reflect and scare off grounds, allowing Jolteon a chance to come back in and set up your offense again. At least, this is the idea I had as to the implementation of this team.

 

[Borat]

How do you plan on "raising" a HP Bug Marowak?

And put Mean Look over Shadow Ball. Watch for Reflect Raikou. Consider Perish Song/Destiny Bond over Ice Punch. The thing with Gengar is nobody really knows what to switch-in against it. Switch in Snorlax to wall the mix sweeper, and risk ML/Psong? Or switch-in skarm/suicune/steelix for the perish trapper and get tbolted/giga drained/whatever? Or switch in Raikou and get baited? Etc.

Starmie is questionable. Consider Roar, Explosion, Curse, Earthquake/Body Slam Steelix. Explodes on Skarm/Suicune. Hits everything else nicely. Gives you a phazer. Body Slam for Zapdos, EQ for Gengar/Misdreavus/maybe Forretress.

Might drop Exeggutor for Cloyster. Clamp + Explosion + Screech is a bitch. And it usually sees Starmie, Suicune, Raikou, and other Cloyster as the common switch-in, all of which you can benefit from.

 

[jynx KB]

Thanks so much for the help guys, newest changes in red

For the Marowak, I'm planning on simply catching Cubones them until I find an appropriate one. Breeding Eevee in the same way is going to be annoying. In the short run, can anyone suggest anything over HP Water if I have trouble?

This is mostly a team to use against friends, and we don't necessarily have set rules, though most of us have the honor code not to use the Uber teir, you never know.

The good thing is, I have the Silver Version while they have mostly Gold, and I spend far more time researching on Smagon, therefore Skarmory is pretty unlikely to be seen. I'm far more likely to see the likes of Typlosion and Amphoros. (Though Tyranitar is a strong possibility)

And what exactly do you mean by "Missy?"

On Gengar, if I'm using a suicide move like Parish Song, wouldn't I just be better off using Explosion?

Mean Look is a great idea, I can't believe I forgot about it.

Dropping Exeggutor for Cloyster and adding the Steelix actually covers me pretty well.

If only Snorlax could learn Reflect, I'd be set.

 

[Jorgen]

Wow, can't believe I overlooked the whole HP thing the first time. Yeah, it'll take you forever and a half to get hidden powers, not only with the appropriate types, but also with high enough base power to do anything worth a moveslot. If you need to change HP water/bug on Jolteon/Marowak, that actually has serious implications as to how your team will be built.

By Missy, I meant Misdreavus. And Roar Steelix does a good job of covering that (except for the oft-banned Hypnosis Misdreavus, and I can actually see somebody thinking they're clever and busting that out in this format. Just as a heads-up, if you think someone might use it, try to see if you can ban it, because it is kinda broken.)

And Borat is completely right, my Starmie suggestion made you too slow, and 'splosion baits for water-type Wak counters are great. Cloyster set is awesome, but you really need explosion on Steelix, it's 90% of the reason you want to use it. Don't worry about blowing up half your pokemon; just remember you'll be blowing up half of theirs, too, and the ones you don't blow up will be at the mercy of Joltwak.

And I wouldn't worry too much about not having Reflect. It's a nice luxury, but contrary to my earlier fixation on the move, it's not essential on a team like this, which really wants to end the battle before Reflect can make too much of a difference for it. Reflect on Snorlax... it's unorthodox, to say the least, and you'll never want to use it. He's a secondary sweeper/wall breaker on this team, not a support pokemon. He's better off just hitting stuff. I dunno what you'd use for the last lax move, though... the best I can think of on a non-resting, in-cartridge Lax is Double-Edge for the 2HKO on Skarm and the various OHKOs that Body Slam can't manage. Body Slam will still be your main attack in this case because of the lack of recoil and the paralysis, but DE will be useful for high-defense pokemon that you think will need extra "oomph" to kill.

 

[Borat]

Snorlax CAN learn Reflect, though I don't see why it should. Pseudopassing should be relegated to lesser Pokemon. Use Rest. Body Slam is too slow, go with either DE or Return.

Give Cloyster Spikes.

Steelix needs explosion.

 

[jynx KB]

Changes added again. I'm not too worried about the Marowak, as catching those is easy enough, but breeding takes forever.

Any ideas on what I might be able to change Jolteon's attack to if I get desperate, or at least a good way to breed in the HP I need?

I'm dedicated enough to wait, but my opponents may get impatient.

And for that matter, what is the bare minimum Power to be worth a moveslot?

 

[gumnas]

Cloyster, Gengar and Steelix should have a short live, as they will bait and kill JoltWak counters, so there is nothing wrong to forego Ice Beam/Surf on Cloyster, Ice Punch on Gengar and Earthquake on Steelix. This may looks weird, but it open a slot for another good move that may be good to your team. Also, your opponent always think that Gengar have "boltbeam", Steelix have Earthquake and Cloyster have Surf or Ice Beam or both, so the Explosion on those three can be overlooked. But it depends on your opponent skill. If he is so bad that know nothing about how the Pokémon are used, then you should go in a different way.

Also, Gengar works much better with different and unpredictable movesets. Perish Song is not a suicide move. You can switch when the count become equal 1, while your opponent can't if he is trapped with Mean Look. You can replace Ice Punch with Perish Song, Destiny Bond, Counter or another good and broken move. You can even forego Thunderbolt and go with Giga Drain to surprise something like Rhydon, or Dynamicpunch to keep Tyranitar out of the way.

 

[Borat]

Never go with Body Slam on a team that won't last more than 50 turns. If you're hitting away, hoping for the paralysis, you're doing it wrong. Return/DE for that purpose. Fire Blast is a fine 4th move, Rest allows for mistakes.

It's more about your play at this point. Learn to adapt. One-two levels of prediction for casual players (ie. predict what he predicts you'd do at most), one-four levels (predict what he predicts you'd predict what he predicts you'd do) for experienced players, and it's just guessing for anyone who clearly outclasses you/the best of the best. Bring yourself down to his level then put yourself in his shoes. Think, but don't overthink.

 

[jynx KB]

All valid points, but I think this team has finally settled into a final layout I can realisticly attain on a cartridge. Return has been decided over Body Slam to take full advantage of that maxed attack stat.

Since Cloyster's current set doesn't leave it around for very long, staying in to Ice Beam something with few other options seemed silly, so it jumped back to the lead with the added annoyance of Spikes.

The most controversial change will likely be taking Explosion off of Gengar. It's stats are in Special Attack, not Attack, and this way it can stay a Special Sweeper as well as a (potentially repeat) Perish Trapper.

I stand by the decision unless a very good argument can be made otherwise.

 

[Borat]

Drop Ice Punch for Explosion.

What does Ice Punch even hit?

 

[Jorgen]

If it's not Zapdos, Raikou, or Growth Vaporeon (which is unavailable in the cartridge), a special attacker in GSC is pretty weaksauce. Explosion Gengar, on the other hand, baits and kills Raikou, letting Joltwak run wild. Perish Song, as I see it, gives you a possible out against Reflect Raikou, or otherwise surprises your opponent. I don't see perish-trapping as a consistently implementable strategy with Gengar, especially not without Protect (and Misdreavus is better at that, anyway).

You don't seem to like putting all your eggs in one basket, but Joltwak is a potential game-breaking basket. If Gengar doesn't have explosion, you jeopardize the effectiveness of the Joltwak combo. And for what? So you can have a weaksauce non-Zapdos/Raikou special attacker who doesn't even get stab off his best attacking stat? Or a mediocre perish-trapper who'd be better off replaced by Misdreavus anyway? (Note: I do NOT condone replacing Gengar with Misdreavus. I exclusively condone outfitting Gengar with Explosion.)

Also, another thing: Gengar is pretty frail. It's not living long, whether it has Explosion or not.

 

[jynx KB]

After looking at the numbers, Gengar just isn't going to do enough damage in the long run. Final changes have been made to ward off Raikou and Tyranitar.

 

[Borat]

You hit Steelix/Tyranitar (just barely) at the cost of Suicune/Skarmory. Your choice. Depends how your friends play. You'd want tbolt for anything past "just friends" though.

Just don't go head-on versus Tyranitar. Giga Drain is only there to ward off Pursuit, not Crunch. You'll lose to that. Tyranitar isn't a threat to Marowak/Snorlax once they get setup anyway.

 

[Jorgen]

Just tried this out on NB and it turns out that explosion/perish song is an illegal combination. Which makes sense, seeing as how Explosion is a tradeback TM from RBY and Perish Song is an egg move, meaning that it's impossible to get in-game. Gengar has loads of other options for you to try, such as counter, and destiny bond, or you could stick a second attacking move like Tbolt in Perish Song's place.

 

[jynx KB]

And just when I thought I had a team worth building *sigh* Ok, I have Thunderbolt, but the question remains what to keep? Explosion or Perish Song? Not to mention, what the heck do I replace it with?

There are no true rules here except a common respect and honor code (No six Mewtwos, though there may be one Uber somewhere)

If I wanted to fight dirty I could simply use a Hypnosis PerishTrapping Misdrevous, but I don't want to sink that low.

I've already started hunting, training, and building this team on the cartridge, so someone please help me with a way to salvage Gengar while there's still time.

 

[Borat]

Explosion.

 

[jynx KB]

Advice taken, though the move I replaced Perish Song with isn't what I hoped for. Maybe I should just switch over to Misdrevous. This moveslot is the last true fix the team needs, so any final advice is both crucial and appreciated.

 

[gumnas]

Read the posts on this thread careful. There is a reason why you should go with Gengar and a reason why you should go with Explosion on it. It isn't a case of mere personal preference.