Announcement SERIES 8 (Dragon King Cup)

cant say

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NEW RULES

Basically next season is a whole 2 months of Dragon King Cup. Here’s the old thread for that: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/dragon-king-cup.3673851/

RULES:
  • all pokémon become level 50
  • eligible pokemon
    • Galar Pokédex No. 001–400, Isle of Armor Pokédex No. 001–210, and Crown Tundra Pokédex No. 001–210 are eligible, as well as the following Pokémon: Mewtwo, Raikou, Entei, Suicune, Lugia, Ho-Oh, Treecko, Grovyle, Sceptile, Torchic, Combusken, Blaziken, Mudkip, Marshtomp, Swampert, Latias, Latios, Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza, Uxie, Mesprit, Azelf, Dialga, Palkia, Heatran, Regigigas, Giratina, Cresselia, Tornadus, Thundurus, Reshiram, Zekrom, Landorus, Kyurem, Xerneas, Yveltal, Zygarde, Rowlet, Dartrix, Decidueye, Litten, Torracat, Incineroar, Popplio, Brionne, Primarina, Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Tapu Bulu, Tapu Fini, Cosmog, Cosmoem, Solgaleo, Lunala, Nihilego, Buzzwole, Pheromosa, Xurkitree, Celesteela, Kartana, Guzzlord, Necrozma, Poipole, Naganadel, Stakataka, and Blacephalon.
  • Teams can have ONE of the following:
    • Mewtwo, Lugia, Ho-Oh, Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza, Dialga, Palkia, Giratina, Reshiram, Zekrom, Kyurem, Xerneas, Yveltal, Zygarde, Cosmog, Cosmoem, Solgaleo, Lunala, Necrozma, Zacian, Zamazenta, Eternatus, and Calyrex.
  • Item clause
  • Species clause


I haven’t got a whole lot to say about this format. The doubles version - Battle of Legends - was really fun, but the singles version had extremely mixed opinions. Dealing with opposing legends 1v1, with only one legend of your own is really tough. But at least this time we have WAY more time to figure out how to play the ruleset!
 
Ika Ika Musume

Ika Ika Musume

I've got to say that Nintendo has really dropped the ball this Generation for competitive play and I'm not sure whether I can stand all these changes. A part of what made BSS good in comparison to standard Smogon formats was the lack of change of the major competitive format. There were always inbalances, but part of what makes BSS great is getting to see an evolution of strategy within a set metagame rather than the approach of banning/changing that which was problematic to deal with. I have many an issue with Dynamax as this generation's flagship gimmick, but it is definitely telling that even Nintendo is not confident in their end product and see the need to keep spicing it up as if no-one would play it competitively for long periods of time otherwise. I do not mind side formats like such that are separate from the official ladder but when it comes to official play, Nintendo should have stuck to their guns post-Crowned Tundra. I do fear that this will have a negative impact long term on the established playerbase.
 
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zhangt6

sorry to nit pick but serebii says till the end of april, so 3 months of this. Probably as all you guys said before at the start of series 7, there will be a massive New mon's hype for VR and then later everything will be sorted out towards the end of that month.
 
Tox

Tox

I don't mind mixing things up, but maybe that's just me being selfish because my results this gen have been alright considering what a poopfeast the Dynamax mechanic can be. Despite placing top 100, I couldn't even stomach finishing my 45 allotted games in the Dragon King Cup, whose ruleset I am now expected to play for the next 2-3 months? If you're going to keep doing this as the devs, go nuts like you did when we used to have the special ladder on console.

Honestly though, you really do need to give a given format time to see it mature into a rich and flavorful experience. Oh, and something about being more competitively legitimate, too, I guess. After all, has not a major selling point that BSS has had over VGC/doubles in the past been its immutability?
 
SecretT

SecretT

Tox said:
I don't mind mixing things up, but maybe that's just me being selfish because my results this gen have been alright considering what a poopfeast the Dynamax mechanic can be. Despite placing top 100, I couldn't even finish my 45 allotted games in the Dragon King Cup, whose ruleset I am now expected to play for the next 2-3 months? If you're going to keep doing this as the devs, go nuts like you did when we used to have the special ladder on console.
Click to expand...
The separate ladder for special rulesets was great in previous gens, but unfortunately not many people participated - it was getting hard to find an opponent after a few weeks. I suppose that's the reason they removed it in Sw/Sh...
 
cant say

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Ika Ika Musume said:
I've got to say that Nintendo has really dropped the ball this Generation for competitive play and I'm not sure whether I can stand all these changes. A part of what made BSS good in comparison to standard Smogon formats was the lack of change of the major competitive format. There were always inbalances, but part of what makes BSS great is getting to see an evolution of strategy within a set metagame rather than the approach of banning/changing that which was problematic to deal with. I have many an issue with Dynamax as this generation's flagship gimmick, but it is definitely telling that even Nintendo is not confident in their end product and see the need to keep spicing it up as if no-one would play it competitively for long periods of time otherwise. I do not mind side formats like such that are separate from the official ladder but when it comes to official play, Nintendo should have stuck to their guns post-Crowned Tundra. I do fear that this will have a negative impact long term on the established playerbase.
Click to expand...
I disagree entirely. This is the exact opposite of “dropping the ball.” I think it’s more common these days with online games using seasonal rulesets / gimmicks. TPCi is just mirroring that framework and I think it’s for the best. You’re the only person I know that liked having the same format for 6 years. I’m just disappointed we go straight to ‘one legend allowed’ and not Series 6 v2 first.
 
Ika Ika Musume

Ika Ika Musume

cant say said:
I disagree entirely. I think it’s more common these days with online games using seasonal rulesets / gimmicks. TPCi is just mirroring that framework and I think it’s for the best. You’re the only person I know that liked having the same format for 6 years. I’m just disappointed we go straight to ‘one legend allowed’ and not Series 6 v2 first.
Click to expand...
Just because something is more common does not mean it should be done. Paying to win is very common in the gaming sphere for example. Are you suggesting it be a good idea for Nintendo to have the best pokemon behind paywalls? That seems rather silly reasoning.
 
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cant say

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Ika Ika Musume said:
Just because something is more common does not mean it should be done. Paying to win is very common in the gaming sphere for example. Are you suggesting it be a good idea for Nintendo to have the best pokemon behind paywalls? That seems rather silly reasoning. I guess you could say that's an overexaggeration and a hard stretch of your argument, but then again wouldn't equating the meta staying the same for 6 years (which it never has done at least since I've started playing BSS which was only 3 years ago) and changing every few months be similar?
Click to expand...
No. This is a wilfully stupid strawman argument.

I can respect your opinion, but I think you’re in the minority in wanting to play the same vanilla metagame for another 3 years. If i’m wrong i’ll take that, but BSS being so plain for so long has been it’s biggest hindrance in keeping players interested in the past.

I can agree that the rules are possibly changing very rapidly and that seasons / series could be longer, but I personally prefer it. I think metagames get mostly explored within 3 months. Yes, gen 6 and 7 went through meta changes in the second/third year, just like how old gens OU go through minor changes still, and the gen 8 rules changing stops that from happening, but I think the trade off of keeping players interested is worth it.
 
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Ika Ika Musume

Ika Ika Musume

cant say said:
No. This is a wilfully stupid strawman argument.

I can respect your opinion, but I think you’re in the minority in wanting to play the same vanilla metagame for another 3 years. If i’m wrong i’ll take that, but BSS being so plain for so long has been it’s biggest hindrance in keeping players interested in the past.

I can agree that the rules are possibly changing very rapidly and that seasons / series could be longer, but I personally prefer it. I think metagames get mostly explored within 3 months. Yes, gen 6 and 7 went through meta changes in the second/third year, just like how old gens OU go through minor changes still, and the gen 8 rules changing stops that from happening, but I think the trade off of keeping players interested is worth it.
Click to expand...
We'll have to agree to disagree on that but I do hope you are right that it brings more players into competitive BSS.

What I would agree with you on is that I was kind of mixed on DKC as I wasn't a huge fan of many of the team archetypes. I'm a hater of Ditto usage in particular beyond very niche cases is it indicates that certain things are best dealt with by their own reflection. But perhaps with more time, some of these clearly broken legendaries (looking at you Zacian and Necrozma-Dusk Mane) can be dealt with more solidly in different ways and the metagame looks more balanced. I guess a bit of theorycrafting is going to be needed.
 
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1_TrickPhony

1_TrickPhony

BSS Circuit Co-host
cant say said:
I can agree that the rules are possibly changing very rapidly and that seasons / series could be longer, but I personally prefer it. I think metagames get mostly explored within 3 months. Yes, gen 6 and 7 went through meta changes in the second/third year, just like how old gens OU go through minor changes still, and the gen 8 rules changing stops that from happening, but I think the trade off of keeping players interested is worth it.
Click to expand...
Even if I bought this argument that "metas get mostly explored within 3 months" (which I disagree with almost entirely), the biggest issue is the length of time of this online competition turned series. There is absolutely no way this ridiculous cover legend gimmick deserves the same amount of time as the full Crown Tundra DLC has gotten so far. If they wanted to break up the main format, increments of one month or two maximum, like series 6 got, is the right way to do it. It becomes even worse when things like calyrex are not accessible to everyone and when they choose a gimmick that makes the format less competitive, unlike series 6 which became more competitive with the banning of Cinderace in particular. This was a horrible decision and we are almost guaranteed to see major drops in participation, maybe not the first month, but by month 3 I wouldnt be surprised to the number of master ball entrants be half the amount series 6 month two got. I know Im not representative of the larger Pokemon fanbase, but I personally will not be participating in online laddering for the duration of this format, hopefully others don't mind these changes as much as I do.
 
cant say

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Anyway, this thread is for talking about the metagame. We achieve nothing by whining about decisions out of our control. Any more posts like this will be deleted, and this thread will be closed and discussion moved to 3v3 Discussion when the rules change in-game.


Can anybody get the DKC usage stats to load in Home? I’d create an overview but I can’t remember too much from Showdown practice. From memory the notable legends were Yveltal, Zacian, and Necrozma Dusk-Mane. The two Calyrex were underwhelming (although Theorymon had some success with Ice Rider iirc), and Eternatus had an interesting Toxic stall set. Teams seemed to be standard BSS builds with relevant legend swapped in, and a lot of Ditto.

Would be great to hear from anyone who played DKC.
 

zhangt6

cant say some data I was able to get off Masters divison of DKCup from HOME, Hidden is the top 50 ranked mons
:Cinderace: *
:Landorus-Therian:
:Ditto:
:Mimikyu:
:Zapdos:
:Rillaboom: *
:Zacian:
:Regieleki:
:Tyranitar:
:Yveltal:
:Tapu Fini:
:Dragapult:
:Ferrothorn:
:Urshifu:
1611365961812.png
Dark *
:Celesteela:
:Kyogre:
:Metagross:
:Urshifu:
1611365978065.png
Water *
:Lapras: *
:Dracovish:
:Porygon2:
:Dragonite:
:Eternatus:
:Grimmsnarl:
:Nihilego:
:Xerneas:
:Necrozma-Dusk-Mane:
:Swampert:
:Garchomp:
:Tapu Koko:
:Hippowdon:
:Glastrier:
:Excadrill:
:Cresselia:
:Heatran:
:Pheromosa:
:Moltres-Galar:
:Gastrodon:
:Charizard:
:Quagsire:
:Calyrex-Shadow:
:Kartana:
:Calyrex-Ice:
:Blaziken:
:Naganadel:
:Whimsicott:
:Gyarados:
:Salamence:
:Mewtwo:
:Rotom-Wash:
*Gmaxness not given/unknown
Some notable notes
The master imgur link of stuff i screenshotted https://imgur.com/a/mTUHu1e
 
DreamPrince

DreamPrince

Can kind of echo the frustration of people over the rapidly changing meta game. Feels kind of frustrating when you are starting to do learn one season only for it to shift to another. I'm guessing the reason why they are doing this is because they want keep VGC going on due to the events being cancelled from COVID. That being said, if they want to do continue doing these frequent changes, they just reintroduce the special ladder from old gens to appease to both crowds.

Anyway, I managed to get to top 2 in the DKC before choking, so here's my team: https://pokepast.es/0dfbd0fa08fd6a7f

Calyrex-Shadow @ Choice Specs
Ability: As One (Spectrier)
Level: 50
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Astral Barrage
- Psyshock
- Draining Kiss
- Trick



Tyranitar @ Smooth Rock
Ability: Sand Stream
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rock Tomb
- Thunder Wave
- Stealth Rock
- Foul Play



Excadrill @ Focus Sash
Ability: Sand Rush
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rock Blast
- Swords Dance



Salamence @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Hurricane
- Fire Blast
- Hydro Pump



Pheromosa @ Choice Band
Ability: Beast Boost
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Triple Axel
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Throat Chop



Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 204 Def / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Surf
- Draining Kiss
- Taunt

A similar style to the Japan Sand teams you saw VGC 15 and 18. Calyrex-Shadow is the star of team with Choice Specs, being able to OHKO non-Bulky Zacian-C with Astral Barrage immediately. Psyshock is for Blissey, while Trick cripples the likes of Porygon2 and Umbreon. Draining Kiss hits Dark types like Yveltal and Tyranitar on the switch. Specially Defensive Tyranitar is a great check to the likes of Yveltal, Calyrex-Shadow, and Dittos while also providing sand support for Excadrill. Excadrill has the ability to hit many Ubers like Zacian and Xerneas super effectively, which was a decision to use this core. Salamence offers a Grass and Fighting resistance to the Sand Core, the special set was chosen due to the lack of immediate special attackers on the team. Choice Band Pheromosa can revenge kill the likes of Zacian, Calyrex-Shadow, Dragapult, and can notably OHKO non-Dynamax Yveltal with Triple Axel of it gets 3 hits. Tapu Fini was the final choice for an additional Dark resistance while also being set up sweeper that is "Imposter" proof.

Threats: Timid Choice Scarf Kyogre is probably this team's worst matchup. It has 0 switch ins, outspeeds both Pheromosa and Calyrex, and there's Dynamax to deal with as well. Band Rillaboom is also obnoxious, since it can OHKO both Pheromosa, Tyranitar, and Fini, while putting heavy pressure on Calyrex and Excadrill.
 
furyofyuriy

furyofyuriy

Xernes is undeniably going to see a ton of usage early on as many players will try to unga bunga Geomancy into Dynamax. As such I'd like to bring mention to a long forgotten move made a TM this generation: Power Swap.
Notable Legends with access: Zamazenta, Mewtwo, and all Calyrex forms.
Notable non Legends: Porygon Z (and 2), Grimmsnarl, Hatterne, and Lele and Koko

I feel that Zamazenta and Mewtwo are the two most notable due to the nature of them being able to check Xerneas. Zamazenta may not gain anything from the boost, but denial of a free boost then slamming back with Behemoth bash has it's advantages. Mewtwo this generation has access to Hurricane, combined with Psystrike, it will allow Mewtwo to bypass Xerneas's spdef boost while reaping the advantages of its now +2 special attack boost.
 
1_TrickPhony

1_TrickPhony

BSS Circuit Co-host
furyofyuriy said:
Xernes is undeniably going to see a ton of usage early on as many players will try to unga bunga Geomancy into Dynamax. As such I'd like to bring mention to a long forgotten move made a TM this generation: Power Swap.
Notable Legends with access: Zamazenta, Mewtwo, and all Calyrex forms.
Notable non Legends: Porygon Z (and 2), Grimmsnarl, Hatterne, and Lele and Koko

I feel that Zamazenta and Mewtwo are the two most notable due to the nature of them being able to check Xerneas. Zamazenta may not gain anything from the boost, but denial of a free boost then slamming back with Behemoth bash has it's advantages. Mewtwo this generation has access to Hurricane, combined with Psystrike, it will allow Mewtwo to bypass Xerneas's spdef boost while reaping the advantages of its now +2 special attack boost.
Click to expand...
this is prediction heavy and cant switch in. Also fwiw, xerneas isnt considered a major threat, but definitely something to be wary of. Id much rather copy with ditto than use a niche set, especially on zamazenta which is already struggling enough to keep any presence whatsoever in the metagame. I could see it with mewtwo, as a super niche tech, to steal boosts from the likes of blissey and other calm mind users
 
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