Resource RU Viability Rankings - V3

[Ethereal Balls]

So I was exploring the ladder usage that was recently posted...

smogon.com/stats/2019-04/ <- Check it out whenever you can.

But anyway, back to my point, when I checked the highest ladder of RU, I noticed something so surprising to me that I didn't know what else to say but "this Pokemon should be ranked right now". The Pokemon I choose to discuss is Electrode.

| 50 | Electrode | 3.45227% | 8269 | 2.648% | 7352 | 2.972% | (Literally came from high ladder)

Now I don't know a definitive ranking for this Pokemon yet so I'll aim low for a UR -> C.

When looking at this Pokemon, it has a blistering 150 Speed. Making it one of the fastest Pokemon used in the lower tiers (only beaten by Ninjask, but that's not important). With the base speed of 150, it's able to out-speed Choice Scarf Base 80's in the tier & practically, mostly every Pokemon in the RU tier. It's Base 80 Special Attack might make you think that it's a decent revenge killer, but that's not it's role in RU. The main role it capitalizes on and is a selling point to it is Screen Support. With the ability to set up both Screens, Taunt defoggers such as Mandibuzz & other defoggers, & can either Explode on your opponents or mostly pivot (you should mostly use that), which provides great utility to its teammates (who're set-up sweepers).

Obviously though, I haven't talked about its cons. Electrode other than its reliable screens support, can't dent Pokemon reliably with its STAB & relies on Explosion for high damage output. But to be honest, it shouldn't be used for that, but for just pivoting screens to your set-up sweeper.

If there's more things that I missed, point them on in the VR so we can fully explore Electrode in the RU metagame. So I'll leave you with a question, Should we rank Electrode? Reply what your opinion on this is, thank you for reading this and hopefully this will get ranked in my opinion.

https://www.smogon.com/stats/2019-04/gen7ru-1760.txt <- My Source from the ladder

 

[Katy]

Xatu from C to C+ (maybe B-)



Xatu has almost been a staple on a lot of RU teams recently. Not only at RUPL but also during the SPL 10 season.
Xatu has seen a lot of success with a clear uprise in Usage. It can Magic Bounce Hazards away and the Magic Bounce
mind games keep people away from putting up Rocks / Spikes immediately unless Xatu is from the field or the player predicts right during the game.
Also Xatu has a decent typing too with Psychic/Flying and with Rocky Helmet it can wear down one of the biggest threats at RU the all around good Metagross.
Heat Wave can damage steel types, which try tend to stay in. The likes of Registeel and Bronzong not only cannot set their Hazards on Xatu, but also getting worn down due to the Heat Wave Xatu offers.
I think Xatu is ready for a rise, as already mentioned above its usage is really high recently and the success it found is also not C rank worthy,
I think it should rise either C+, im also fine with B- as that bird tends to have a better time at the RarelyUsed Tier recently.

 

[JustoonSmitts]

I'm surprised no one is talking about Mega Sceptile since we unbanned it. Well, here goes:

I think Mega Sceptile belongs in either B or B-.

As the fastest non-Choiced Pokemon in RU, Mega Sceptile can easily demolish offensive teams if it is unprepared for. It also has a naturally high Special Attack with a decent STAB combination. However, Mega Sceptile's STAB combo is easily walled by Steel-types like Registeel, Metagross, and Bronzong, while its bulk along with its defensive typing leave much to be desired. It can easily be revenge-killed by other revenge killers like Choice Scarf Noivern, Zygarde-10%, and especially Golisopod, which usually forces it to run Protect to scout for potential Choice Scarf Pokemon or First Impression when it could have used that extra move slot for a valuable coverage move. To be honest, other Grass-types like Virizion, Roserade, and Shaymin have more threatening firepower since they can hold items and boost their stats in Virizion's case. They also have much better methods of dealing with Steel-types, which Mega Sceptile can struggle against. Other Mega Pokemon like Mega Blastoise or Mega Ampharos provide much better utility for a team. For example, Mega Blastoise is the best Rapid Spinner in the tier and Mega Ampharos can function as a slow, bulky pivot. Mega Sceptile is essentially a Choice Scarf user without being locked into one move, which makes it a niche, but still viable Pokemon that requires a lot of support to work.

 

[roman]

Hey guys! Here are the votes if anyone is interested, and thanks to everyone who helped with this!

Ranking Updates

Rises:
Metagross A+ → S
Salazzle A → A+
Florges B+ → A-
Donphan B → A-
Diancie B → B+
Houndoom B- → B+
Aerodactyl B- → B
Ribombee C+ → B
Gigalith C+ → B-
Xatu C → C+

Drops:
Zygarde-10% S → A
Blastoise-Mega S → A
Bronzong A- → B+
Milotic A- → B+
Arcanine B+ → B
Feraligatr B+ → B
Slowking B+ → B
Snorlax B+ → B
Cloyster C+ → C
Kingdra C- → D

===

Sceptile-Mega → Added to A-
Tangela → Added to C+
Garbodor → Added to C

Reasoning

Rises

Metagross up to S, Stealth Rock is a decent glue that checks a bunch of problematic shit like Gardevoir, Noivern, and Tyrantrum and can cripple the majority of removers with Toxic. It can also fit Pursuit on some teams that can afford dropping Earthquake (notably Xatu teams) or Toxic to trap Psychics, mainly Gardevoir. Choice Band runs through a bunch of offense teams and can get through some of the more dedicated checks / counters like Golisopod and Slowbro with Thunder Punch and still provides some utility in Pursuit trapping and revenge killing with Bullet Punch. The other sets it runs aren't on the same level as these two but work just fine. People are catching onto Salazzle more and more and it abuses the rising Florges balances and typically has freedom picking t he last slot, which is really nice for improving any matchup of choice. The rest of the reasoning was covered in the last update, there isn't much more meta wise that has changed for it. Same goes for Florges here, A- is simply a more accurate reflection of its viability. Donphan is one of the top removers at the moment, it beats every nearly every setter 1v1 while providing defensive utility as a check to a bunch of physical attackers. Diancie has a cool defensive typing that allows it to act as a Fire and Flying check, and can keep Stealth Rock against a bunch of removal, which is pretty nice for a defensive setter. It also has a bunch of freedom in the last slot, it can run Toxic to keep Stealth Rock up against more removal, run Earth Power to chip at offensive Pokemon like Metagross and Nidoqueen that would otherwise come in for free, or even go with something crazy like Endeavor to break down walls like Registeel. Houndoom is one of the best Choice Scarf users, fantastic utility in Flash Fire (has Toxic too), great dual STAB, etc. Nasty Plot is decent too, not much more to say. Obviously outclassed as a wallbreaker by Ninetales and Salazzle, so B+ is fine. Gigalith and Aerodactyl are rising because of their ability to check Fire-types, Gigalith also provides Stealth Rock and supports Sand sweepers like Stoutland and Aerodactyl has a cool offensive typing, good coverage, and can run Stealth Rock if needed. Aerodactyl in particular is very unexplored and, with the right set and a bit of support, can run through many of the common bulky offense teams running around right now. Ribombee is still a cool pick thanks to its typing, offensive typing, U-turn and of course being able to fit Sticky Web on Choice Specs sets is great too. Quiver Dance is gaining traction as well, it's a headache for bulky offense and, with a bit of support, can deal with balance teams as well. Xatu completely walls the defensive Steel-type Stealth Rock setters and can deal with Roserade and Metagross 1v1, but it gets dicey when switching directly into them. Calm Mind / U-turn is decent, too, but that's about as far as Xatu gets. It's way too unreliable against most other Stealth Rock users and is too frail to get Calm Mind going most of the time, but it's decent enough for C.

Drops

While Zygarde-10% might seem like one of the most threatening Pokemon on paper thanks to Thousand Arrows, a decent Attack stat, and great Speed stat, time and time again it has failed to execute in practice. The continued prevalence of Grass-types and walls such as Slowbro on balance teams along with the rise of Golisopod makes it extremely hard for Zygarde to make any headway without using Outrage or packing a bunch of support alongside it, so it's much more fitting to drop it down to A. Mega Blastoise simply isn't the terrifying wallbreaker it once was, checks and counters like Virizion and Florges are prevalent at the moment, which makes it tough for Blastoise to get through teams. It also isn't amazing vs many of the Stealth Rock setters, as some of them (notably Registeel) have no issue healing up over long games and others simply aren't threatened by it, whereas other removers which have gained traction can more immediately deal with them (Knock Off Donphan). Bronzong is just not at the level of Registeel, and what little things it gets over Registeel as a defensive Steel-type aren't as useful as they may seem. Levitate does almost nothing for it as our best Ground-types have ways to get around it, a part Psychic-typing would be useful for the prevalent Fighting-types, but it still fails to consistently check them, and to top it all off Metagross can now trap and remove it with Pursuit. Registeel is also much bulkier and does better vs the removers we have, so B+ is a more accurate ranking. Nothing has really changed metagame-wise for Snorlax, Arcanine, and Milotic, the new rankings just more accurately reflect their places in the tier. If you have any confusion about these drops then read the last couple of updates, as they've been dropping for a while and have been covered in those. Feraligatr is dropping because it can never really get going, as it's slower than nearly every Choice Scarf user. It also fails to make headway against Golisopod because of Sheer Force mechanics and Mega Sceptile dropping didn't do it any favors either. Slowking is niche, it checks a weird pool of special attackers but fails to consistently beat other ones such as Mega Blastoise, Shaymin, and Roserade. B is a more accurate for it, as it's still one of the best Fire checks we have and is nice for dealing with other Pokemon like Noivern and Gardevoir. While Cloyster's Sash Spikes and Scarf sets can work out every now and then, they're just way too niche and inconsistent, and full Shell Smash is almost completely outclassed by Barbaracle, so C is more appropriate for Cloyster. Kingdra sucks.

New Rankings

Even though people have been disappointed by Mega Sceptile, it's amazing for what is basically a scarfer to freely switch moves, and can threaten defensive cores with Leech Seed + Protect. It also has the coverage to deal with most set up Pokemon which is important for a revenge killer, so A- will suffice for now. Tangela is borderline unkillable on the physical side, and is annoying to switch into because of Leech Seed / Knock Off / Sleep Powder and a surprisingly strong Leaf Storm (Regenerator is amazing too). Being able to single-handedly wall a plethora of physical attackers would leave it much higher, but its dependence on Eviolite and giving way too much stuff (Fire-types / Toxicroak / Roserade etc) free turns really cuts into its viability, so C+ is fine. Garbodor is another decent spiker, being able to pressure common defoggers like Mandibuzz with Toxic, eventually winning that matchup. Its ability to dish out residual with helmet and aftermath are also very appreciated in a tier infested with fighting types and the rise of Golisopod. Its struggles against Donphan and a rising pick in Golbat are notable though, and make it a niche option designed to cover specific builds

Discussion Points

Shaymin A → A-
Slowbro A- → A
Hariyama UR → ???

Feel free to add your own nominations, see you next time!

 

[Nat]

hello ru playerbase i am here yet again with some vr suggestions. i apologize for the general disarray of thoughts compared to normal, just wanted to throw something out there.

Espeon

the only reason i wanted to make this post is to drop espeon from b- to C. it is nowhere near the caliber of any other b- mons and stacking psychics in this meta doesn't seem super ideal. This paired with us having so many superior psychics makes it a rarely seen choice. It has a small niche with specs or z-elec for stoise but i'd argue it often can be replaced for something better on a team. to me magic bounce in general doesn't seem too useful atm on a mon so frail. morning sun sets seem relatively ineffective since we're a tier packed with so much priority/powerful speed/steels.

Donphan

I'd say send it to A. Upon returning for a few days now it seems very high-usage and a nice removal alternative to stoise. shard is infinitely useful atm for scep/noiv/rose/zygarde. it helps out vs the rising-in-popularity diancie/pretty much any steel rocker/rhyp. I'd argue it's the third most useful user of knock off in the tier behind drapion and mandi. most things in the tier that switch in to eq dislike the knock, and vice versa. eq+shard even kills viriz if it enters into eq at around 80. iapapa and lefties both have merit. it's just all around a great mon to have on your team that I find usually contributes its' fair share in almost any matchup.

Milotic

Milo already has been struggling for awhile but on top of our ever popular grasses giving it trouble, sceptile-mega is yet another bother. Machamp coming back into a more relevant state doesn't help either. araq/aboma/amph/raikou/goodra all abuse it to no end. depending on your lack of ice beam or refresh can make croak/steel rockers/other less relevant mons trouble too. any fire type in the tier can deal very decent damage to it, or can kill it after 1 boosting move since literally most of them have prominent boosting sets. slowbro has proven to be all-around better on the phys def side of things. Drop it to B.

Torkoal

Fire turtle to C/C-. To be really blunt and rude, when has anyone used this thing for anything? a spinner that's weak to rocks and uses 1 attack style just can't keep up in this meta where diversity and coverage reign supreme. fire is also a poor defensive typing, and ninetales is a much superior sun setter. I just don't find the need for sun setting+removal/rocks in 1 slot worth it with the drawbacks it has.

Hariyama

Hariyama seems fine around B/B+. This may seem quite the jump but to be far it was missing on the vr for longer than it should have been. it has great coverage and thick fat+av is really ridiculous. being able to annoy stoise/salazzle/registeel/ninetales/others in 1 slot shouldn't at all go unnoticed.

Mega-Sceptile

I think i'd be cool bumping this to A. It has really solid coverage and outspeeding stuff like scarf garde/passimian/metagross/+1 gatr is neat. the speed tier in general is obviously ridiculous, being the fastest nonboosted mon that's viable. protect is not only cool for pod but also scouting in general. dragon pulse handles salazzle/croak/drap a lot nicer than one might expect. leech can annoy people though i haven't been a giant fan. endgame this thing can often be a monster after chipping at an opposing team for most of the game.

Seismitoad

Toad has seen better days. Mega-Scept obviously hurts it but I feel the meta has shifted in a way that hurts toad. stuff it'd like to wall like arcanine/barb are slightly less relevant now. croak is still relevant but a +2 LO croak can handle a toad after it has inevitably been beaten on a little throughout the game. I'd drop it to B-, it just seems like not even a top 5 rocker in the meta atm. refresh knock can have a weird niche i guess but then you leave yourself vulnerable to missing out with another needed move. also auto dropping one of knock/eq/scald/ice punch isn't ideal for it. 2 of them if you're running toxic. if you don't run toxic you're even weaker to a host of other things like slowbro/araq/mantine/gastro etc.

Houndoom

I'd personally put doomer at A-, scarf really does a nice job at cleaning up a lot of our offensive threats. This one is the suggest i'm the least sure of, as obvs priority + plentiful dark/fire resists can be problematic. that being said I like it a lot and np z is still no slouch, esp vs bal. whereas scarf is better vs offense.

I don't care to expand on these two but I agree with slowbro to A and disagree with shaymin to A-. thank you for reading uwu

 

[Denial]

B --> B-

I dont think this mon is good at all, and my opinion is supported by its usage in RUPL, aka used 1 time, and it was a L too. This mon is just too slow and cant reliably check anything cause of its bad typing. Slow turn is nice ig but the mon itself its just too bad.

B- --> something lower

Nommed this in January, but doing it again. Why is this thing ranked so high? Stall its just bad and even there its not used at all, and for good reasons. It fails to check what it's supposed to do, cause hazard or just any status will destroy it, and Taunt make it literally useless. There are way better bulky Water types in this tier, and Pyuku isnt good as Vapereon for sure lol.

Just wanted to talk about those two cause Nat said it all (even if i think Mega Scep is overrated). Finally the VR is looking somehow accurate.

 

[Bouff]

nominating golisopod to a+. it's one of the most splashable mons for bulky offense atm given that first impression is insanely good for checking most offensive mons that don't resist it. has a really flexible movepool to go along with it, having leech life as a p spammable move that helps it stay out of ee range, alongside spikes which helps to put pressure on whatever switches in on fi later on. it has other more flexible options based on team needs but FI is p much the most essential part because bug stab is really really good to have, a lot of resists to it on bulky offense are p fragile and dont have means of recovery save for noivern and toxicroak sort of. on the flip side despite its dumbass ability and weakness to rocks, it has a pretty good defensive typing and good bulk to go with it, and leech life + sitrus berry sets help with getting the most mileage out of it. honestly its biggest flaw is that hazard control in ru isn't super amazing, because goliso excels at both cleaning up late game and breaking shit earlier on, and despite the inconvenience it can give i think it provides an essential role on offensive teams that warrant it being able to sit with the other mons in the higher rank.

don't have a lot to say on this one but tangela definitely shouldn't be c+. the past few months have shown that it can really hold its on as a mon that can just sit on a lot of physical attackers like zydog and donphan (though it certainly doesn't like having its eviolite removed) thanks to its stupid bulk and even stupider ability. given this its great at just spamming knock early game to soften up for teammates later on. when it comes to having ground switchins, and right now having ground switchins is really nice to have, tangela is definitely one of the best. i'd say put it at b or even b+ - admittedly sometimes it is a little awkward against boosting z move sweepers so maybe i am jumping the gun, but it definitely has more of a place in this metagame than pretty much everything in c+ and most of b-.

 

[CryoGyro]

set

Klinklang @ Electrium Z
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 12 HP / 252 Atk / 244 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- Gear Grind
- Wild Charge
- Magnet Rise

I nominate Klinklang to return to the VR at C+ for being a potent cleaner.

Magnet Rise creates a boatload of setup opportunities. Several extremely commonplace Pokemon are reliant on Ground-type moves to threaten Steel-types, including Metagross, Donphan, Nidoqeen, Rhyperior, and Shaymin. This combined with the numerous free turns a Steel-type can already find, such as against Florges and Choice-locked mons, means there are often at least two Pokemon on a given team that Klinklang is free to set up on.

Klinklang often gets to boost multiple times. With a Ground immunity, Steel's amazing resistances, and passable bulk, it can keep setting up in the process of a sweep by taking a neutral or resisted hit, possibly meaning it can get KOs easier or clean with Wild Charge instead of the shakily accurate Gear Grind.

Steel + Electric coverage is immensely threatening to conventional builds. The number of bulky offense builds that "just lose" to Klinklang is absurd; the only common Pokemon that resists both of its attacks is Raikou, which isn't exactly renowned for its physical bulk. On balance teams, solid and viable answers are limited to Water / Ground types, Steelix, and maaaaybe Tangela. Registeel can be an obstacle too, but bringing it into Gigavolt Havoc range isn't impossible with proper support and play.

Klinklang is incredibly difficult to revenge kill. At +2 Speed, the only Scarf user it falls short of is Noivern, which typically lacks any way of really hurting it. A Steel typing and decent physical bulk mean Klinklang also cares little about priority moves that are oh so vital in this metagame like First Impression and Ice Shard.

Klinklang isn't that difficult to support. You have to build with the concession that your Steel-type is your wincon and must be preserved as such, but Klinklang's consistency makes this more than a fair trade. All it really needs is Pokemon that give Steel-types a hard time, especially through Knock Off, and chances to get into position against setup fodder.

Here's a replay that demonstrates how a typical Klinklang game goes:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-925252175
Once my opponent let their Raikou get hit by First Impression, Klinklang was free to Magnet Rise on Metagross and claim victory. This same win condition can happen against Donphan, non-Fire Blast Nidoqueen, and Rhyperior.

And so you can try Klinklang out for yourself, here's my current team with it. It's far from perfect, but does a fine job of giving Klinklang what it needs. Just look for the setup fodder and knock off what you need to.
https://pokepast.es/ab20ca73cecf9ac0

 

[snow]

A --> A+
In my opinion Golisopod is A+ worthy and definitely is better than the other A ranked Pokemon in the tier at the moment. The most important reason for this is of course how useful First Impression is, being able to revenge kill or force out offensive Pokemon that do not resist it. This paired with Spikes in particular can give Golisopod free turns to stack spikes. Aqua Jet + Sucker Punch as other priority options for Golisopod allows it to finish off Pokemon that want to come in on Golisopod after First Impression is used such as Salazzle and Gardevoir. The flexible moveset that it has is also unpredictable and hard to check as it is able to run Drill Run for Toxicroak and Rock Slide to lure Flying-type Pokemon. Leech Life on its own is also very splashable versus bulky offense at it can take Golisopod further from Emergency Exit range. Even defensively Golisopod has good bulk allowing it to check offensive Pokemon that it resists as well as many defensive Pokemon in the tier.

A- --> A
Machamp can literally switch in to 99% of Pokemon on balance teams and claim at least one kill with Guts + Flame Orb. Facade + Close Combat offers nice coverage to hit the tier for huge amounts of damage with their really being no safe switch ins. On top of this Machamp has access to Bullet Punch to KO offensive Pokemon that have been chipped.

Machamp also has a very nice niche with an Assault Vest, allowing it to beat Pokemon such as Noivern, Mega Blastoise, and Roserade 1v1 while also being able to act as a wallbreaker if hit with a status condition.

In my opinion Machamp is more viable than Tyrantrum as it is able to break teams just as well while also being able to be ran slightly more bulky to take on offensive teams.

C+ --> B
Tangela is a blanket check to Metagross, Virizion, and Zygarde-10% some of the best physical attackers in the tier. It can also pivot in on weaker special attackers thanks to Regenerator and Eviolite. The idea that it can pivot into the same Pokemon throughout an entire match up makes it really useful in certain situations. Even without Eviolite its stupidly good bulk allows it to still pivot in on physical attackers throughout a match up.

 

[robofiend]

Arcanine B -> B+

Arc is a super reliable physical attacker with a good speed tier and the movepool to run a ton of interesting and useful Z moves, which has made it an all star on many of my teams. The popularity of Registeel, Tangela, Mandibuzz, Milotic, Golisopod, Donphan, and Metagross guarantees its relevance as a physical attacker who can force common defensive mons into a corner with Z moves like Electric Z to victimize Mandi and Milo or Grass Z to singlehandedly cover bulky Waters, Grounds, and Steels. Extreme speed pairs amazingly with spike support, often cornering worn down offensive mons late game, where Arc can act as a cleaner if equipped with Choice Band + Espeed. The calcs on this move alone are crazy, it does about 60-80% to every major fast sweeper in the tier, and can also thwart DD users like Feraligatr or Zygarde - especially when paired with another priority user like Golisopod to wear them down. This combo is ultra potent given Goli's ability to switch in on predicted water attacks, provide spikes to priority trap, and provide another priority attack itself - all while relying on Arcanine's superior wall-breaking abilities.

Overall, there's not another physical breaker in the tier outside of Metagross who I feel has so much going for it offensively without needing to set up - Zygarde lacks the movepool and bulk, Goli lacks the coverage attacks (and useful abilities), and Machamp lacks the speed tier. Move it on up.

 

[Padstar34]

FLYGON NO.1! just kidding, A/A- is a good place for Flygon. I tried it in RU and it is pretty strong and very versatile, able to be both setup and sweeper, a very handy perk. It is also able to swap in on ground types, so that's a plus.

 

[Tommaconda]

FLYGON NO.1! just kidding, A/A- is a good place for Flygon. I tried it in RU and it is pretty strong and very versatile, able to be both setup and sweeper, a very handy perk. It is also able to swap in on ground types, so that's a plus.

Sorry to squash your hopes and dreams, but Flygon doesn't really have a good niche over Zygarde 10%. Zydog has thousand arrows, good priority in extreme speed, and is a little faster. Flygon is a little bulkier and can come in on ground types, but 80/80/80 bulk still isn't amazing. Dragon dance can be revenge killed by the priority in tier if it gets chipped, and several scarfers like Noivern. U-turn is nice for the ok scarf set, but it is not very powerful on its own and cannot wallbreak.

Flygon's not bad, (which is why its in B), but Zydog (in A) is overall better and easier to fit on teams.

 

[TheJimJims]

Pyukumuku from B+ -> B

Now that Linoone is gone, a lot of Pyukumuku's niche is done. Every team carries a Poison immunity, so it's good ole Block -> Toxic -> Waste 51 turns niche is pretty void. It does wall physical wallbreakers, but once it switches in, you just gotta switch into your Registeel or Blastoise on the Soak and then laugh in its face with whatever. Sub Regi, Sub Raik, Sub Thousand Arros Dog, and... just the move Substitute beats Pyu and Sub has become a little more prevalent. The popularity of Screens, even post-Linoone, poses a problem, as Xatu's Magic Guard memes in Pyukumukus face while setting up Screens and U-Turning out of Block. Roserade's popularity also shoves this thing down the drain because it clicks the grass move. Lastly, even though RU Stall is sorta a thing, Pyukumuku is stallbroken pretty easily, breaking a trapper.

I can see this thing falling farther down, but most teams having a physical Wallbreaker that Pyu can beat means that you might get away with it with Heal Bell support and a more defensive team build.

 

[Mavis]

Yeah, Golis to A+ is most definitely fair, arguably I would say it takes the place of Roserade who shouldn't be in A+ anymore, but that's a discussion for another day. Golis is incredibly splashable, First Impression is an amazing move that lets it kill a multitude of relevant threats like barbaracle, krow, gross, stoise, and zydog, and aqua jet lets it handle fire and rock types like houndoom, salazz, aero etc. The amount of auxiliary options it can run besides its stabs is great too, be it spikes to pressure defense, knock, or drill run, this mon is great. Sure it's ability usually sucks, but imo what golis is capable of far warrants a rise from its current standings.

Golis A --- A+

 

[Molk]

First nom in forever

Passimian C---->B

Passimian is criminally low in my opinion after using it for about 50 games. It's ranked alongside a bunch of niche stuff like Steelix and Golbat right now but this thing is actually so good imo. The Choice Scarf set has the speed, power, and coverage to function as an effective revenge killer and force switches so it can give its teammates a free way in with U-turn (although barely being outsped by Mega Sceptile definitely sucks). While i haven't really seen anyone else talk about it, i really like Choice Band Passimian too, it hits the entire meta extremely hard and basically plays like a Machamp that trades away Ice Punch for U-turn and a *lot* of speed. Passimian is also extremely physically bulky for an offensive Pokemon, even without investment, which lets, for example, the Choice Scarf set pivot directly into things such as Virizion (barring a Shattered Psyche on the switch, and it's still a roll for it to survive lol) and CB Zygarde-10%, then to outspeed them and pick them off. Defiant is neat too, since it punishes opponents for trying to Defog away your entry hazards (CB becomes an absolute world beater if you can get the Defiant boost, even Cresselia takes like 50 from Close Combat), and gives the Choice Scarf set a great matchup against the occasional webs team. I've also theorycrafted Bulk Up Passimian with a Z-move a little bit, but haven't gotten around to testing it because i feel like you want to take full advantage of U-Turn if you're using this thing, although Bulk Up+Buginium-z might be a neat thing to try out if you want to keep it.


Really though, after using Pass a bunch i think it definitely deserves a rise, it looks really out of place among the other C-ranks.

 

[MrAldo]

Mismagius from B+ to A-: This mon is very good, lets take a look at upper ranks and lets take and how none of them are good resists and how it is a menace to the general goli donphan metagross archetype running around. Really solid breaker with a very spammable stab and dangerous z nuke that many teams struggle to switch into. Pursuit isnt persistent either so mismagius can get a lot of leeway to do stuff with plenty of useful fillers alongside its nasty plot set like taunt, or will-o-wisp, or extra coverage, or sub depending of the situation. Pretty great mon and it is crazy how much better is here compared to NU... thats kind of funny, but yeah rise this.

Registeel from A+ to A: What is this doing on A+? You cant be telling me this is on the same level as Virizion or Salazzle. The metagame right now rewards more offensive options in general which wind up to just using Metagross or no steel period (Since Escav is more of a bug) and Registeel despite not being a liability like with Doublade around it is still pretty passive and doesnt hold up the detail of beating every remover around like it did in the past. Donphan is a premier spinner now and Sigilyph while niche still not too shabby for removing considering how threatening can be for other setters, and then there is Xatu on the rise looking like a very good hazard control option.. I think ProTox shenanigans arent enough to keep it in A+, still a solid pick cause being a pure steel is phenomenal in terms of not sharing weaknesses with other things but still not A+ in my book.

I can agree with Golisopod being A+ tbh. This thing is the glue for many offense and bulky offense teams which despite the objectively shitty ability the many useful resistances, bug priority which hits really hard and is incredibly threatening, and water priority too, and great general bulk which allow to 1v1 a good couple of things is pretty nifty and hella useful for many things. Sitrus set the purpose is understandable but kind of affects the damage output tbh, Insect Plate helps with changing moves and still you do hefty damage with your main moves. Think it deserve that spot, way to go you... sea dweller bug thingy..?

Also agree with Passimian rising, but maybe not to B. B- seems more plausible to it, it is a cool scarfer that offers great resistances and good bulk, a bug resist which is nice and decent revenge killing capabilities. Now, I say decent cause it is very strong with STAB alone but you always get the feeling you are missing some coverage for key targets. U-Turn, Knock Off, Close Combat, Gunk Shot, Earthquake, and perhaps Rock Slide all dont fit in the set sadly so you gotta select carefully your options, despite that still very good and could rise a bit tbh. We will see what happens with Mega Absol, if it gets in this mon will get better for sure.

Cheers!

 

[cyanize]

a "few" comments on mons i think are currently a bit underrated, and a discussion point about the higher end of the vr

dragalge

b+ -> a-
dragalage is super nice right now and i feel it deserves to be in a league of top mons in the tier. a one stop shop to put the brakes on some of the most difficult mons to take on in the tier - salazzle, rose, viriz, and golis all give it free turns to do what it wants, whether that be drop dangerous z dracos on unwary metagross or set up tspikes to whittle all the unprepared teams with grounded spinners. both offensive and defensive sets are solid - defensive is my personal favorite, as it pretty much heals off rose, salazzle and the like and provides a more reliable switchin to golis, giving it plenty of opportunities to chip at the opposing team with tspikes. toxic is a nice last slot option to let it beat defensive defoggers and pressure bulky waters/blobs better, cus let's be real when are you ever clicking scald? offensive is definitely not to be slept on, either. you can try, but this 252+ SpA Adaptability Dragalge Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 209-246 (65.3 - 76.8%) will open your eyes real quick. probably my favorite mon to use atm, surpsingly splashable and a cut above a lot of the somewhat situational mons in b+.

diancie

b+ -> a-
diancie is another mon that definitely stands out to me as better than the rest of b+. a very consistent rocker with a fair bit of versatility in both its moveslots and its ev spreads, able to go defensive and chew attacks from a swath of different special and physical attackers, or go offensive and put pressure on hazard control while still maintaining solid bulk. 180 modest 2hkos donphan and comfortably 3hkos blastoise while still taking on what it needs to with max hp like avoiding the 3hko from blastoise aura sphere, giving it plenty of room to creep the weird 50 base speed tier. just an overall solid mon that rarely underperforms in my experience.

garbodor

c -> b-/b
another bulky poison i feel is on the rise, garbodor in my eyes is leagues better than everything in c+ and most of b- as well (barring tang, but we all know that's not a c+ mon anyway.) counter to every broken fighting, punishes golis simply for existing, and sets both spikes while whittling hazard control with an accurate toxic? i'm surprised it took this long for this to even be on the radar honestly. it doesn't need much explanation or justification, i feel - you switch in on fighters, click spikes, and force the opponent on the backfoot.

gigalith / stoutland

b- -> b /

c+ -> b-
sand is clean atm. gigalith alone is valuable for being a solid switchin to a whole host of threatening special attackers rn - raikou, fires, garde, noivern, you name it. sand is also helpful to chip away at opposing mons like viriz, who also has synthesis recovery weakened making it much less threatening long-term, and megastoise who otherwise would switch in on rocks unpunished. it's an unfortunate detriment to your team as well, but not an insurmountable one as plenty of mons synergize with gigalith without being set back too hard by sand.
stoutland, the number one star of any gigalith team, is also is a pretty nice spot atm with a lot of teams' normal resist consisting solely of metagross, which can come in to return a whole one time 252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 97-114 (30.3 - 35.6%) -- 96.7% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock giving it plenty of freedom to blow holes in anything and everything that stands in its way. even registeel teams struggle to reliably take it on without heavily invested mandibuzz, as superpower does a massive 74 minimum, leaving it plenty of room to click return for the rest of the game.

passimian

c -> b-/b
swear if my draft didn't get deleted i woulda said this before molk did, but he covered pretty much everything i was gonna say on it. id like to add that this has hella nice synergy with a lot of top mons atm, with salazzle abusing fairies and poisons that it switches out on and raikou/u-turn vern forming nice pivoting cores with it that synergize well with spikes/tspikes and pressure the hell out of hazard control.

hariyama

ur -> b
this is a big jump and nat already touched on it, but she's also completely right in that it should have been ranked a long time ago and has been under the radar for far too long. it's a pretty much direct upgrade to av machamp defensively, with the tradeoff of slightly less offensive prowess and speed - though it's not like hariyama is a slouch offensively anyway, as it still hits like a truck with adamant and significant investment. that said, pretty much anything else it wants to do is outclassed by machamp so b seems fine for it.

re: registeel, and by extension the a ranks

a+ -> a
i don't fully agree with this nom, but i do agree with some of the logic behind it. i feel regi has more impact on your average game than the majority of mons in a and would definitely stick out like a sore thumb among them - most of them bar noivern have some matchups where they become extremely difficult to navigate while still retaining an impact, while regi is pretty much never deadweight and can easily put pressure on all of its "switchins" with decent prediction on top of being our most long-lasting and reliable rocker and a blanket check to a shit load of threats. that said, i do agree that it (and rose as well) have a less consistent showing in your average game than salazzle and to an extent viriz, but i'm not sure if that warrants them dropping to a, salazzle (and potentially viriz but not really) rising to s, more mons rising to a+ to equalize the power level, all three, or no change at all. i'd either raise the 3 mons i mentioned to a+ and lazzle to s or drop rose and regi to a, but i feel the first is a more accurate representation of our meta. personally, i feel as if some mons in a are underplaced (namely golis, stoise, and noivern), and salazzle is a strong candidate for s due to its high impact on the meta alongside its ability to consistently make a big impact on games even when it's checked in the builder. however, i'm well aware that not everyone agree with my opinions so i'd like to see other people's thoughts on regi, lazzle, and the top 3 ranks in general.

delphox

ur -> c
yes, i know i made this a fad a while ago and nobody really paid any mind to it, but i think this time delphox can definitely find more usability. scarf is still nice, being faster than most common scarfers and outpacing mega scept. it also has a solid typing that helps it both defensively and offensively to put pressure on offensive teams, alongside access to trick to cripple a defensive switchin like florg or mandi. scarf also has no real need for gk anymore with gatr gone, so it can slot hp ice to surprise noiverns and zygardes and get the drop on whatever random dd flygons are still around. however, the set i wanna focus on rn is pinch berry cm.

the set in question

wys (Delphox) @ Mago Berry
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Fire Blast
- Psyshock
- Grass Knot

now, i know your initial thought is "why would i use this when i have broken ass salazzle and ninetales?" well, its advantages over our other familiar fire breakers are twofold - its bulk and its psychic typing. firstly, psychic stab allows it to hit switchins like dragalge, snorlax, and goodra with a stab psyshock, allowing it to break through them without being forced to use a z move or some wack coverage move. it also gives it defensive boons, such as a resistance to fighting meaning it isn't as easy to revenge with viriz like houndoom and ninetales, and a psychic resistance of its own allowing it to serve as an offensive switchin to the likes of gardevoir and sr necrozma (and the underrated sigilyph), using them as opportunities to set up. it's notably the most reliable offensive garde switchin in the tier, especially when you factor in mago berry recovery.
its second advantage is its bulk - between cm, mago berry, and its solid 75/100 special bulk, it gets quite a few setup opportunities vs things other fire types can't boast; for example, you can straight up set up on and beat blastoise at +1 after it's taken a round of sr as timid dark pulse/scald never kos you even after rocks damage of your own. the pinch berry in particular lets it play much more freely as an early game breaker, as it fears stray toxic much less than tales/doom and has more bulk/longevity than lazzle. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-940316345 shows this in action, in addition to it setting up its own ability to clean - a bit of smart play and big damage on milotic at +1 gives it free rein to kill pretty much everything on my opponents team with the combo of blaze fire blast and psyshock where lazzle would have been stopped by dragalge and houndoom/tales much more easily pressured offensively.
the pinch berry also allows it to retain high hp off of a bunch of random attacks where other fire types would be severely weakened or outright kod, activating off of attacks from full like non-cb golis first impression, scarf goodra eq, unboosted salazzle z sludge/noivern z hurricane/lo shaymin ep/necrozma ep or power gem with unboosted spdef, and nidoqueen ep/the aforementioned blastoise dark pulse at +1. this gives delphox opportunities to break or sweep in situations where other fires would falter, or set up an extra calm mind in order to break through an additional check waiting in the wings. mago berry also gives it opportunity to play around with rocks to regain hp and facilitate a sweep, as shown in this game https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-940548080 where healing off sr lets me set up a on noivern, allowing me to take back a game that seemed nigh impossible to win. finally, the combination of all these things makes phox much harder to revenge than other fire breakers, especially given the tendency of our revenge killers to be physical - it easily takes on the likes of noivern, mega sceptile, raikou, salazzle, and scarf garde, giving it another leg up over its competition. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-940551364 this game showcases that well, letting it confidently set up on a noivern and get the win where every other fire would have been forced out to diancie on a donphan double, putting me behind. all these traits i believe warrant delphox being ranked in the current meta.
of course, it has its fair share of problems, such as being hardwalled by houndoom and its psychic typing also being a detriment in a few situations, as well as not actually being a viriz check as it get smoked by +2 z moves as well as stone edge, but that's why i'm only nominating it for c.
ftr z move sets are also perfectly usable, but i feel like mago berry is more optimal to play to its bulk as z move is pretty much just worse ninetales bar beating goodra, and it doesn't really need z unless you feel like nuking mandibuzz. other berries like colbur and shuca are also usable, but again the longevity of mago is definitely missed.
sorry for the wall of text but i feel like this mon has potential and id love for other users to mess around with it some to see what they think.

addendum

other noms i agree with/shouldn't need much explanation
donphan a- -> a
golis a -> a+
milo b+ -> b
slowbro a- -> a
scept a- -> a
amph b -> b-
forry b -> like c+
toad b -> b-
torkoal c -> c- or even ur

on the subject of the last few, i feel like there's a lot of irrelevant/barely relevant mons bloating the b and c ranks like toad, glalie, amph, emboar, etc. that could afford to drop or just disappear entirely (and vice versa, uxie and tang have had no business in the c's for a long time) but i don't feel like listing all my ideas or arguing with the one proponent of each of them, so i'll leave it up to the vr team to decide if they need a revamp

 

[Mac3]

UR --> B- or C+
Articuno @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 20 Def / 52 SpD / 184 Spe // EVs: 252 HP / 20 Def / 180 SpD / 56 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heal Bell / Substitute
- Roost
- Defog
- Freeze-Dry

Articuno has risen to become a staple on stall as it is able to keep rocks off the field vs. Registeel, Bronzong, Nidoqueen, Forretress, and Seismitoad because of Pressure allowing Defog to have more PP than SR. Pressure also makes it so Toxic and Heal Bell have the same amount of PP so it doesn't get worn down by Toxic. Substitute allows it to beat Rhyperior and Gigalith if they are running Stone Edge while also being able to annoy 'mons like SR Necrozma and SR Metagross. Ice STAB is also really good in this meta eespecially Freeze Dry as it hits water types super effectively as well. The first ev spread allows it to outspeed max speed nidoqueen while the defense EVs allow it to better take Gyro Ball from Bronzong, however if Sub then invest the 20 EVs in spdef instead. The second spread is much bulkier while the speed allows it to outspeed adamant Bewear.

Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-949817229

In this replay Articuno is able to PP stall regi and beat Blastoise and Mantine.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-949813940

I played this pretty badly but Sub Cuno beats Bronzong, he was running Confuse Ray but Toxic would've had the same outcome. Even if Bronzong had been Psywave if he didn't get super lucky with rolls I would've come out on top.

 

[roman]

New update, here are the votes if anyone is interested. Thank you to Averardo for helping me write the update!

Ranking Updates

Rises:
Salazzle A+ → S
Virizion A+ → S
Nidoqueen B+ → A
Necrozma B+ → A-
Sigilyph B → B+
Tangela C+ → B-
Passimian C → B-
Garbodor C → C+

Drops:
Shaymin A → A-
Zygarde-10% A → B+
Tyrantrum A → B+
Milotic B+ → B
Ampharos-Mega B → C+
Seismitoad B → C+
Espeon B- → C+
Pyukumuku B- → C-
Torkoal C+ → UR
Golem-Alola C+ → UR

===

Hariyama UR → B+
Palossand UR → B
Articuno UR → C
Dhelmise UR → C
Klinklang UR → C

Reasoning

Rises

Typically a rise to S is really impactful and calls for a drawn out explanation but Salazzle to S has been beaten to death, if you want a longer explanation on why it's so good you can search this forum or the discord chat but tldr Nasty Plot is extremely difficult to deal with defensively and the Choice Scarf set revenge kills everything. Virizion has been extremely influential and only gotten better since Doublade left the tier and newcomers such as Raikou and Mega Sceptile are generally friendly to it. Swords Dance has very little defensive counterplay because of the variety of sets it can run (Fightinium / Grassium / Rockium / Life Orb / Fist Plate / pinch berry etc) and its great special bulk in conjunction with Synthesis allow it to find set up opportunities pretty easily. A fantastic speed tier allows it to threaten offensive teams as well. Nidoqueen slays, four attacks / three attacks toxic (or taunt) breaks down literally everything and it has a decent Stealth Rock set as well. Choice Scarf is decent too, its bulk allows it to act as a one- or two-time switch in to offensive Pokemon like Virizion while simultaneously acting as speed control, toxic spikes are pretty cool too. Calm Mind Necrozma is insane, it sets up on literally everything and blows everything up with Z-move, making it an extremely valuable tool to break down fatter teams. However, it struggles to set up against more offensive teams and is prone to status, and Golisopod being everywhere doesn't help it either. While Sigilyph lacks the bulk of Necrozma, it's much faster and has a bit more immediate power to take advantage of offensive teams. It also doesn't care about status, allowing it to blow through walls like Registeel that rely on Toxic poison to take care of set up. Tangela blanket checks nearly every physical attacker in the tier and has access to support moves like Knock Off and Sleep Powder while also being somewhat of an offensive threat with a very decent special attack (as high as Shaymin's) and high base power moves like Leaf Storm. Passimian rise mainly because of its Choice Scarf set, access to moves like U-turn and Knock Off is solid and it has good enough bulk to actually act as a one or two-time switch in to some offensive threats, tank a hit, and force them out (and gaining momentum with U-turn). Choice Band is decent too, it's a nice in between of the slow fighters (Machamp / Bewear / Pangoro / Hariyama) and Virizion, which is super nice because it outspeeds important Pokemon like Mega Blastoise and Nidoqueen. Garbodor is a decent offensive spiker due to Toxic / Taunt and has a good typing that takes advantage of trends such as Golisopod. Aftermath is pretty nice for chipping down key threats as well.

Drops

Shaymin is just not the wallbreaker it once was, it now relies way too heavily on Seed Flare drops to be of any use versus balance and can even struggle to trade against offense teams. Z Celebrate has issues with coverage and needs Synthesis to have any defensive utility, which gives it way too much trouble and makes it too reliant on support to reliably clean. Zygarde-10% is in a pretty similar boat as Shaymin, Golisopod and Donphan being everywhere on bulky offense make it super tough for it to get anywhere and balance has options like Slowbro and Cresselia to deal with it. Choice Scarf Tyrantrum used to be super hard to switch into, but it has really fallen off with the prevalence of Metagross and Donphan. However, it still has good defensive utility for a Choice scarf user (mainly its fire resist) and has way around switch ins, so B+ is fine. Milotic is in the same boat as Salazzle, both have been beaten to death so tldr worse Slowbro. Mega Ampharos just sucks, not really fast enough to break anything and although it has a somewhat interesting defensive typing it can't really be taken advantage because it struggles to invest in HP and doesn't have any recovery. Seismitoad has been mediocre for a while, it was good for a short amount of time when it was first introduced to the tier but it struggles to excel at anything bar defensive typing: it doesn't have good bulk, struggles to consistently set rocks, and isn't hard to switch into or take advantage of, so C+ is more appropriate. Calm Mind Espeon has a niche but it fails to consistently deliver without a good matchup (it's also pretty easy to revenge kill it due to abysmal physical bulk and only mediocre special bulk) and is frequently outclassed as a Psychic-type, Calm Mind user, and Magic Bounce user. Stall sucks, Pyukumuku is extremely niche as the Unaware user, only checking a handful of Pokemon that Quagsire struggles with, and then forces the stall user to prepare more for Pokemon like Toxicroak and Raikou. Torkoal is horrible, it sucks at setting Stealth Rock as well as spinning, and Ninetales is a better sun setter. Alolan Golem struggles to properly beat all the Steel-types and thus can be a waste of a teamslot, and there are many other better ways to take advantage of Steel-types so.

New Rankings

Assault Vest Hariyama is literally Machamp mines some Speed but with Thick Fat, which is really important for checking Pokemon like Ninetales. Palossand is a decent check to Fighting-types and Rock-types with Stealth Rock and recovery as well as a good STABs, so B is fine. Articuno is a good remover for Stall teams, being able to remove against Registeel, Bronzong, Nidoqueen, and others thanks to Pressure + Defog + Heal Bell. Being able to remove hazards is extremely important for stall, so C is adequate. Dhelmise is a super niche remover, has a great defensive typing that allows it to check threats like Virizion and can even trap (Anchor Shot) and PP stall Stealth Rock users like Registeel if running Rest. Klinklang has a great defensive typing with decent bulk that give it set up opportunities, but running a Steel type whose defensive utility is typically only usable late-game hurts a lot, not saying you can't run two Steel-types but that'll give you a bunch of issues in the teambuilder.

Discussion Points

Mandibuzz → A
Barbaracle → B+
Bronzong → B
Vaporeon → C+ / C
Glalie-Mega → C / C-
Torterra → UR

Feel free to add any of your own discussion points, see you all next time!

 

[Mavis]

my thoughts on the VR update are gonna be as follows, and I'll touch on the new noms as I see fit.

Viriz rise to S is... interesting, to say the least, and while Lazzle may or may not deserve it's spot, I don't think either of them have ever been quite on par with Gross. Gross has ridiculous set variety, ncluding but not limited to: SR 3 attacks, cb, scarf, and agility and can mix and match it's coverage with things like the elemental punches, pursuit, and even explosion to make dealing with it difficult without a Slowbro. Viriz and Lazzle just straight up don't have this sort of set variety, especially not Viriz.

Shaymin and Zydog have been on the decline for a while. Agreed on that one.

Mandibuzz to A: Disagree. Okay, I am a huge fan of Mandi myself, but I don't think I find myself preparing for Mandi as much in the builder as much as I do for the other A ranks, yes, even Toxicroak. Mandi is ridiculously passive, and despite being an outstanding Golis/Phan answer and a decent Viriz answer, it feels at place with the other A- ranks. It's set diversity is negligible past the choice of what two of the three offensive moves you use or whether or not you have Taunt, and a lot of special attackers whom RU is primarily composed of, (Raikou Gardevoir Florges Noivern Ninetales Salazzle etc) don't care much for Mandi, and none of those are hard to fit onto any teams.

Barbaracle to B+: Agree. Barbaracle is, by it's nature, a VERY hit or miss sweeper, unlike the (far) more reliable Viriz, Lazzle, or Necro, as usually the opponent will have one hard answer they can save for it with cautious play, I.E. Donphan's Sturdy or some grass/fighting/raikou that kills it on the Smash. A lot of things can kill it the turn it sets up, since it's typing isn't anything too stellar. Hell, 0/4 Bewear can take anything from the Rockium variant from full and kill it back. Not the most reliable sweeper now that screens have gone back down to a low ladder gimmick for the most part.

Bronzong to B: Agree. This thing gets absolutely flattened by both our primary spinners, And I've never found a reason to keep it around Registeel besides the EQ immunity being nice or running Heatproof EQ to cheese out Lazzle and Tales. Unimpressive Mon, drop it.

Torterra to UR: Agree. Why is this thing ranked again? Like, I get that it's got a neat typing and it sets rocks vs phan, but Shard still drops the bitch and god forbid it sets foot within a hundred miles of Blastoise. Can't deal with any of our defoggers either, Mantine cares nothing for it, Flygon laughs at it, Sigi laughs as well, and don't even get me started on how badly Mandi manhandles it. Forretress wheezes as well, and even Tsareena couldn't care less. Bad rocker. Use Gross or Rhyperior or Regi or something.

MY OWN NOM: Donphan to A/A+. It not being there already is.. stunning. This mon is EVERYWHERE. It's such a great spinner, shutting down and destroying common setters like Gross, Rhyp, Regi, and Zong with ease while having Ice Shard to deal with Noivern, Zygarde, and Rose, as well as weakened Shaymin and being a sturdy (pun intended) answer to Rantrum. It's also a great shutdown for Tales/Lazzle/Barb courtesy of Sturdy, which frankly only serves as another notch in it's belt as to why it deserves a move up. Donphan has become the go-to physical stopgap for things like Zygarde, Flygon, Metagross, Rantrum, and Toxicroak courtesy of it's powerful Earthquake and priority Ice Shard. The power of those two moves itself is nice, but throw in Knock and Spin and it becomes amazing. Move this mon up please.

 

[sensei axew]

I definitely agree with a lot of the changes that were made in this VR update. I feel that all of the rises were necessary except for the rises of Salazzle and Virizion. In my opinion, both of these mons don't really deserve the S rank but that's a discussion for another time.

For the drops, I personally would have dropped Zygarde to the B rank. I feel that Zygarde-10% has really been falling off more and more recently. I feel that it's a subpar wallbreaker with its band set and its too frail to have luck with its dragon dance set. However, on another note if it's checks like donphan, slowbro, cress etc. have been removed from the game, it definitely can put in some work so I do believe it's still viable. All the other drops I can agree with except for milo. I don't think milo should have dropped but I understand why others may have different opinions.

Mandibuzz to A rank - Disagreed. While Mandibuzz is no doubt an amazing stallbreaker and a counter to many important mons in the tier, I don't feel that it's A rank worthy. I feel that with the opponent making the right plays, Mandibuzz is almost always on the losing side momentum wise. It's easily taken advantage of and ultimately with a plethora of mons that can come in on it, Buzz has a hard time removing rocks and recovering consecutively. In addition, even if it's not the hazard control on the team, it's still very easily exploited. However, as mentioned earlier, it's still a very good pokemon to have as a stall breaker and I do believe it deserves A- rank.

Barbarcle to B+ rank - Disagreed. With Linoone being banned and ultimately the usage of screens going on a decline, I do feel that Barbarcle also is going on a decline. In addition to this, there's not really a lot of mons that allow Barbarcle to shell smash in their face. However, I do also feel that if it can come in and successfully shell smash and all of its few counters have been weakened, it can easily sweep late game. That being said, I still feel that Barbarcle is a good late game cleaner and I don't think it should drop just yet.

Bronzong to B rank - Agreed. This is something I can agree on, however. Bronzong should never be a first choice as a rocker and its so easily beaten down that I just find it to be a very mediocore mon. Rarely do I see a reason to use Bronzong over Registeel besides it having levitate. I honestly would be A-OK in this thing dropping to B- rank.

[Edit] Vaporeon to C+/C - Disagreed. Earlier I stated that I was unsure of whether Vaporeon should drop or not, however, after messing around with it, I've discovered that it's actually a decent cleric in the tier. It's really bulky and can take on practically any special attacker that isnt a grass / electric type. However, the tier is littered with grass types and Vaporeon does not like switching into any physical attacks. That being said, I don't think that Vaporeon should drop or rise. I think this mon fits perfectly where it is right now.

Glalie-Mega / Torterra to UR(even thought I know its saying C/C- for Glalie) - Agreed. I really see no reason to be using either of these mons in the tier so I personally would drop both to UR.

 

[Elements 101]

I liked the changes this update as well, though I honestly would have just dropped Metagross instead of moving those to up to S; I do see the reasoning there though.

Mandibuzz to A - Disagree. I get that Mandibuzz has a whole lot of utility, but that's about it, and you can only get so far with that. Plus, it occasionally gets strapped for moveslots. That said, it still has immense physical bulk and it can run a specially defensive set as well, so it's not bad at all.

Barbaracle to B+ - Neutral. I'm not sure if it's just me, but I barely see Barbaracle at all and I never actually place it on my team because I tend not to need Shell Smash sweepers in general. As such, I can't really say anything about this.

Bronzong to B - Agree/Unsure. Bronzong still accomplishes the same roles it did before - it stills switches in on ground (which is always cool, especially with Donphan still on the rise), sets hazards, uses Gyro Ball/Psywave, and sets screens/TR if necessary, and still acts great defensively. That said, Registeel currently seems to perform better than it, perhaps even more so than before since it has greater bulk and doesn't get destroyed by Knock Off (which Donphan obviously carries), only perhaps crippled. Plus, on the screen-setup side of things, Uxie has been putting it in competition recently, so that's something to consider, not to mention that Screens aren't as viable as they were when Linoone was around.

Vaporeon to C+/C - Neutral. Never needed it and never used it in particular, though it's an interesting wish-passer choice.

Glalie-Mega to C/C- - Agree, to C-. I've used this before, but literally all it can do is use Explosion and maybe get a double-edge off if it doesn't just flat out die because of its bad defensive typing and 80/80/80 defenses. It tries to set spikes, but that's usually done better by something that isn't Ice-type like Golisopod.

I also support Torterra to UR and dropping Zygarde-10%. Now for my own nomination...

Roserade to A. While I really like to use Roserade, it's sort of due for a drop now. Metagross and Donphan rising in usage especially don't help it when they can easily take advantage of its poor physical bulk, though at full health it can still 1v1 both.

Plus, Golisopod has proven itself to be a great spiker (and it also absolutely destroys Roserade), which takes a bit more away from Roserade's niche. Of course, it still hits really hard and it still can set spikes, but it's not as good as it was before.

 

[Master Chief]

Alright after looking at this, there are several things about the VR I do not agree with and wanted to voice my opinion on this since it's likely this thread will die come gen8. Credits to Bouff for discussing these with me

Rises for the S rank:
Salazzle A+ → S
Virizion A+ → S

Let's deal with the two new S rank mons. Both are probably the two best offensive mons in the tier in their own way but I don't think lazzle is as good as virizion or metagross. Virizion usually puts in work in some form or the other and preparing for coverage in edge or even zen headbutt can become a headache but salazzle can sometimes maybe claim a kill but won't consistently put in the same work as virizion. I think lazzle personally belongs in A+ but that's my opinion. However, the real issue I wanted to hammer home was that both of these mons are not as good or malleable as metagross. From rocks to band to scarf to so many sets metagross can be molded to fit most teams and has an absolutely fantastic movepool to catch a lot of would be checks on a switch. No mon has the same impact on the metagame as gross does and something which the VR should highlight. I don't know why this is frowned on but I would be inclined to put gross at S+. I'm not trying to say gross is a mon that's perfect or not without flaws but it's a cut above the rest of the whole tier and I'd be inclined to highlight that it's considered by a lot as the best mon in the tier now.

A-:
Donphan: This mon is on literally half the teams right now and i'd say it's even more common than blastoise as hazard removal. Move this up to A. Without a good ground resist or something physically bulky donphan is obnoxious to switch into and nothing really likes being knocked. Phan also forces really uncomfortable trades if need be. It's far more common and better than the other mons at A- such as shay or machamp. It belongs in A

Mandibuzz: Mandi to me is the best mixed wall in the tier right now. It checks so many physical mons that are stupid to switch into and I'd argue the second best user of knock off in the tier. Brave Bird checks grasses, toxic checks necrozma and other calm mind sweepers. While it suffers from 4mss it's very maleable to what the team requires and this adaptability is a cut above the other mons in A- so it definitely warrants a rise to A.

Necrozma: I don't agree with this sitting in A- and the reason for why it shouldn't rise to A at least. This mon is insanely good in the current meta. It has amazing coverage and photon geyser is an absurd nuke that hits so much. Heat wave paired with fire z blows steels out of the park and power gem hits the two darks that can act as checks: houndoom and mandibuzz but without toxic, necro can 1v1 mandi fine. CM 2 attacks moonlight is a pain to deal with and hard to stop once it gets going. CM 2 attacks also lets necrozma act as a hit and run mon so the argument that pod everywhere deters necrozma from doing work is wrong especially since it can't switch in comfortably. Lots of teams are very underprepared for necrozma and it puts in work in nearly all mus including vs offense.

Slowbro: Slowbro is arguably the best physical wall in the tier and checks a huge amount of mons and is one of the few good fighting resists this tier has. In addition to being the best switch into metagross and a great switch into donphan. With rindo berry (felibro) it's also a good switch into virizion and can provide really nice utility with t wave to annoy incoming switchins or even toxic and regenerator is a broken ability. 3 attacks slack off is really nice as well when paired with resist berries (s/o felibro again). This mon is more viable than the other mons sitting in A- and even some of the mons in A like toxicroak and ninetales. I would put this in A.

B+:
Diancie: Diancie is probably the second best stabless stoise switchin the tier and has rocks. It checks noivern really well as well as salazzle and has great utility with heal bell while earthpower ensure it doesn't let steels come in for free. It is also on a fair amount of teams, I'd be inclined to put this in A-. It has a more sizeable niche than the other mons in B+.

B:
Araquanid: This is a nom Bouff argued but with which I agree. Spider has a lot of really nice resists allowing it to soft check a variety of mons. But I think the main selling point is Water STAB when water resists seem to be quite scarce and restricted to other waters. Sub Tox is much more difficult for slowbro to deal with especially because of leech life. This deserves a rise to B+, it's certainly a lot more viable than a lot of other mons sitting in B.

Cresselia: I would be less fussed if this didn't rise but I've been getting a lot of mileage out of twave cress on BO builds. It's a very underrated mixed wall and checks grasses and grounds quite well so I'd put this in B+

Milotic: I very highly disagree with this sitting in B and would move this up back to A- at least. Milotic is definitely 'not a worse Slowbro' and has two important legups over slowbro: because of its spdef it actually checks stoise and acts as a status absorber. The latter allows it to sit on bulky steels or teams and just annoy the hell out of them. There are a huge number of teams that are underprepared to break milotic outside of a sole grass and while it is passive, being able to sit on teams and spread toxic and scald burns while teams struggle to break you down is not a bad facet and a feature that's increasing more and more given that teams are ignoring milotic building wise.

Snorlax: Another very underprepared mon. In addiition to the rise of block lax, curse lax in general is a lot harder to stop once it goes. Fightings other than virizion lack recovery and it checks nearly every special attacker in the tier in addition to being a great fire resist. The tier does not have great phasers or taunters which allows lax to thrive a lot more than earlier. I would surely put this in B+ at least if not A-. This open especially has demonstrated lax's potential in winning games.

B-:
Tangela: 'Tangela blanket checks all physical mons in the tier so let's put this at B-'. Hell no, this mon is amazing glue and belongs in B or B+. It has really good utility options to annoy defensive switch ins and regenerator lets this mon be healthy throughout the game. B- is far too low for it

C+:
Espeon: This is the last mon i'm gonna talk about because I'm tired but espeon's 'mu dependence' is false. Like necrozma it's a very good hit and run mon too and other than scarf metagross, electric z can beat other pursuit users so it doesn't get trapped easily. Its speed tier is fantastic and cm allows it to set up all over things like diancie/florges quite well. It's hard to work with but incredibly useful in a lot of matches given the tier's lack of physical scarfers. I'd bump this up to B- at least.

Other stuff I won't go into that bouff argued for:
Ribombee -> could do with a rise since specs is a very good set
Gigalith -> solid niche outside of sand and fire checks are definitely needed rn
Xatu -> solid enough to go to B- or B

Bouff and I think this VR needs an overhaul. There are mons being placed in ranks where they are not classified accurately especially considering their neighbour mons in the tier and a ton of these mons are being overlooked for the incredible potential they have especially considering their high usage in the current open

 

[robofiend]

Mandibuzz A- → A
Disagree. I think keeping Mandi in A- better illustrates that while it is effective and highly meta-relevant, it is not comparable in viability to the other A ranks. It's very possible to build a team that slowly die's to Mandi's shitty Roost/Toxic stalling, or its potential to remove items, or its ability to punish strong physical attackers with Foul Play or surprise Fighting types with a Brave Bird. But despite having these niches, it sort of doesn't work against offensive teams because it can just get run over by so many mons. Just a turn of set up, a Z crystal, or Rocks on the field can give mons that it certainly should check a surefire way of luring and beating it.

Barbaracle → B+
Agree. There's one calc in particular that comes to mind:
252+ Atk Golisopod First Impression vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Barbaracle: 210-247 (73.6 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

On a setup sweeper like Barb, dying to a resisted hit with ~20% chip is pretty brutal. And while that calc itself is not everything, there's also the threat of getting RK'd by Salazzle, getting worn down by entry hazards, or just getting picked off by some random shit like Metagross or Machamp with Bullet Punch, or worse, Arcanine with Grassium/Electrium. Solid mon, but requires team support to be effective since it can't usually enter into play against anything except a choice-locked, resisted physical hit.

Bronzong → B
Disagree. While outclassed, it's not useless. Gyro Ball + EQ on a mon that throughly checks Gardevoir, Metagross, and Virizion (from full) and can also dish out Rocks is cool. Levitate is great in the Donphan meta, though Knock Off is a big risk these days.

 

[N_Mareanie]

252+ Atk Golisopod First Impression vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Barbaracle: 210-247 (73.6 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

Barbaracle runs Protect, so this doesn’t add anything to what Barbaracle already is.

dying to a resisted hit with ~20% chip is pretty brutal.

and just a fyi, rock doesn’t resist bug, so barbaracle doesn’t resist first impression.

but requires team support to be effective since it can't usually enter into play against anything except a choice-locked, resisted physical hit.

this is just simply false. yes, it requires team support, but so did linoone. and look how it was in RU. also, most ‘mons require team support, this isn’t necessarily a bad thing.
barbaracle isn’t nearly as effective ofcourse, but it’s mostly used with screens and is used as a late game sweeper, and because of its decent amount of bulk, it can succesfully do this, even against team who on paper seem very effective against barb. it has its problems, but your reasoning for it dropping is not enough, and I think is more of a good summary as to why it is A-, a fine ranking for it for now.