Metagame RU Stage 12 - Rock And Roll All Nite (Obstagoon Banned)

Feliburn

is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
RU Leader





Hello RU community! It is now time for the much awaited Obstagoon suspect test! This mon built like TheFranklin fr.

Obstagoon was already feeling like a Pokémon that put too much strain on the builder, having a few guaranteed answers like Weezing-Galar, Diancie and Cobalion. Thanks to Switcheroo, it always found ways to keep certain longevity, tricking the Flame Orb for Leftovers, or even just using it to cripple its answers or checks. It also had a crazy coverage. In a meta where Knock Off switch ins are very scarce, most of them did not appreciate a Guts Boosted Knock Off into a Facade from Obstagoon. Those who did, like Cobalion, would get hit with a strong Close Combat, showcasing that Obstagoon had the tools to get past its answers. Pair this with the fact that its most common answer, Cobalion once again, has risen to the UU tier, just puts Obstagoon on an incredibly obnoxious and limiting position in the tier. And this isn't even mentioning the natural bulk this mon has, with mons like Rhyperior barely missing on the guaranteed 2HKO if uninvested in attack.

Obstagoon doesn't come without its flaws. The constant burn chip it gets in order to actually pull its weight as a breaker, and a typing that almost always forces it out vs the U-turners in order to avoid getting super effective chip due to the same longevity, just mean it's a Pokémon that can be stopped on offensive pressure alone. We also have up and comming Body Press users, such as Registeel and Bronzong, who can limit the free switches Obstagoon would normally get. The meta has found ways to keep Obstagoon in check, without having to use dedicated answers all the time, but it could also be said that this same influence just speaks volumes of how much it restrains teambuilding.

So with all of this, the council has decided to suspect Obstagoon, and let the community discuss on how they view this mon's presence in the tier.

Tagging Kris and Marty to announce it on the RU ladder, thank you guys.

GXEminimum games
7850
78.249
78.448
78.647
78.846
7945
79.244
79.443
79.642
79.841
8040
80.239
80.438
80.637
80.836
8135
81.234
81.433
81.632
81.831
8230

Suspect information:
  • There will be no draws allowed for any potential qualifiers. If you qualify with draws, your suspect requirements will not count, and you will not be allowed to vote. There is no way to actively enforce ties to prevent abuse, so they will be disallowed. Use stall at your own risk.
  • All games must be played on the Pokémon Showdown! RU ladder on a new alt with the following format: "RUO7 (nickname)". For example, RUO7 Goon or RUO7 ROFL
  • Do NOT impersonate other people in your ladder alt, do NOT use any usernames which are offensive, flame-baiting, or targeting specific users, and do NOT use usernames which could be interpreted as breaking any of the username rules on Pokémon Showdown! Failure to abide to this will result in you being barred from voting in this suspect, and potential infractions.
  • The suspect test will last for 2 weeks, ending on Friday, April 22nd. 11pm - 5
/!\ NOTICE /!\ RU will not be tolerating any form of voting manipulation. Any attempt to manipulate votes can result in an infraction, loss of eligibility to vote in the current test, and loss of the Tiering Contributor badge. While we won't necessarily enforce super strict punishment, this won't be tolerated and will be handled accordingly. Voting manipulation can simply be described as attempting to get people to vote a way on the test in inappropriate manners. Bribing with teams to vote a certain way, directly messaging people to vote a certain way, publicly announcing "vote this way" all fall under voting manipulation. For more query feel free to PM me or phantom.

Good luck and have fun :pimp:
 
Im surprised this mon wasn't quickbanned. The intro says U-turn and offensive pressure stops obstagoon but it does not mean they get rid of obstagoon so we usually lose a pokemon if obstagoon switches in safely.
Additionally, this intro says bp user but obsta can overwhelm them with a little chip damages and registeel and bronzong wear down very easily.
These are what everyone knows but I think these facts are enough to ban obstagoon.
 
I'm do agree that Obstagoon don't have any safe switch and even have some moderate bulk, so fast revenge killers can't actually revenge kill. Also his high power don't require setup and have some useful immunities that can use to a safe join the battle. It's a almost guaranteed ko when touch the field.

Don't need to stay in RU, can be banned.

(Also bans Torxitricity XD)
 
Hi everyone, first post in the RU forum! I laddered SM lower tiers quite a bit a couple years ago and got back into the game about two weeks before the April shifts. RU looked fun so I decided to give it a shot!

My suspect test run was a little rough (44-8, 78.1% GXE) but it's given me a lot of games to play with and against Obstagoon. I don't think it's a secret that there aren't a lot of Pokemon that can take hits from Obstagoon. Galarian Weezing needs to be Neutralizing Gas to avoid being 2HKO'd, and that about sums up defensive counterplay in RU! I looked lower in the tier list to find other checks and Bewear actually handles Obstagoon quite well, with Close Combat doing 34.4-40.5% to 252/252 HP/Def Impish, but Bewear matching up poorly against most of the rest of the tier means it's hard to justify using it outside of stall. I used this Bewear stall that I edited from someone else's stall to get through the middle part of my run: https://pokepast.es/2800fd2b4bf96d7b and I had no problems with Obstagoon.

I think that team shows what Obstagoon does to building - in order to feel defensively safe, you need to build full stall with 1.5 counters. If you want to feel safe offensively, you're pretty much forced into building a very fast paced offense, because a balance or even bulky offense team risks having its defensive cores destroyed by a couple good Obstagoon plays. Rhyperior and Diancie are the closest and those don't stand up to Obstagoon very long.

I didn't like Obstagoon's capabilities in the tier even when Cobalion was here, but with Cobalion rising, Stealth Rock becomes Obstagoon's best offensive answer in RU. I think this shows the unhealthy presence Obstagoon has on the tier. I will still be laddering and unfortunately have at least one round of Obstagoon RU Open left so maybe I'll change my mind, but at the moment, I'm on the Ban Obstagoon side.
 
Hello my people. In lieu of the lack of posts up until now I have decided to drop a wall of text to make up the difference.

On the derailing of this thread
I must confess that I am a bit disappointed in the posting quality that has plagued this thread up until now. The purpose of this thread is to discuss what to do with Obstagoon. What we wish to see is posts that explore questions such as “Is Obstagoon broken?”, “Is Obstagoon uncompetitive?”, “Is Obstagoon unhealthy?”, and “Would the tier be better off without Obstagoon?” Yet this thread only has one serious post which briefly touches on problematic aspects and argues that Obstagoon should be banned for being unhealthy. The rest of this thread is filled with unserious one liners. This is somewhat surprising, considering how eager many users have been to voice their concern over Obstagoon in the past month or so. As soon as it became clear that Cobalion could leave the tier, tens of users immediately called for Obstagoon to either be banned or suspect tested. Where those voices went nobody knows. Perhaps they thought the outcome of the suspect test was already a foregone conclusion and therefore decided not to bother with any posting. They would obviously be well in their right to do so, as nobody should be forced to make forum posts. Nevertheless, it is rather disappointing to witness what is supposedly a serious topic of discussion deteriorate into a series of shitposts whose content is about as informative as your average frat guy drunk partytalk on a friday night.

On the Obstagoon question
Anyway, leaving aside my qualms about the terrible posting quality, I do want to touch a bit on what should be the main topic here: should we ban Obstagoon? My starting point will be the tiering policy framework, according to which the purpose of tiering policy is to “create a metagame that is conducive to the more "skilled" player winning over the less "skilled" player a majority of the time.” In order to facilitate the development of such a metagame, we ought to remove elements that are either “uncompetitive”, “broken”, or “unhealthy”. All of these elements reduce the amount of skill involved to a significant extent and thus produce a metagame that is undesirable. However, if a given element cannot be said to be either uncompetitive, broken, or unhealthy, then it should not be banned. Ergo, in order to ban Obstagoon, it would need to be either uncompetitive, broken, or unhealthy.

Definitions
An element is “uncompetitive” if it reduces the effect of player choice to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant. Examples of this include OHKO-moves, evasion, and moody, all of which tend to produce a game state in which RNG is emphasised at the cost of battling skill.

An element is “broken” if it is too good relative to the rest of the metagame, such to the extent where a standard team without the broken element facing a standard team with the broken element would be at a drastic disadvantage. Additionally, an element is broken if its counters or checks are extraordinarily niche Pokemon that would otherwise put the team at a significant disadvantage.

By unhealthy elements, I mean elements that are neither uncompetitive nor broken yet are deemed undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit "skillful play" to a large extent. These are elements that may not limit either team building or battling skill enough individually but combine to cause an effect that is undesirable for the metagame.

According to the tiering policy framework, unhealthy elements are the most controversial and subjective and should therefore be used the most sparingly. The Tiering Councils will only use this amidst drastic community outcry and a conviction that the move will noticeably result in the better player winning over the lesser player. This is a last-ditch, subjective catch-all, and tiering arguments should focus on uncompetitive or broken first.

Is Obstagoon uncompetitive?
Let me begin by stating the obvious: Obstagoon is not uncompetitive. The mon has five main moves: Knock Off, Close Combat, Façade, Switcheroo, and Obstruct. You occasionally also see moves such as Double Edge or Parting Shot. All of these moves are perfectly accurate. You know what will happen each turn. The only RNG involved is a potential crit, but that is the case for all moves in the game. Thus, I can confidently say that Obstagoon is not uncompetitive.

Is Obstagoon broken?
This is a much more contentious point. In my opinion it is not broken. I do not think that a standard team with Obstagoon will necessarily be at a drastic advantage over a standard team without Obstagoon. Nor do I think that its counters and checks are extraordinarily niche pokemon. While the departure of Cobalion certainly makes Goon harder to deal with, I believe that we still have access to plentiful offensive and defensive counterplay. Weezing-G, Diancie, Bewear, Steelix, physically defensive Registeel, and Klefki switch into it and ko it. Mimikyu not only outspeeds and kos it, but it also discourages the use of CC and Façade in general. Heliolisk, Raikou, Tornadus, Inteleon, Virizion, Scarf Gardevoir, Scarf Heracross, Scarf Togekiss, Scarf Regidrago, Scarf Tyrantrum, and Scarf Pangoro all outspeed and ko it. Kingdra, Kabutops, Ludicolo, and Seismitoad outsped and ko it in rain. Shiftry, Charizard, and Entei outsped and ko it in sun. Arctovish and Arctozolt outsped and ko it in hail. Sharpedo outspends and kos it after a speed boost. Lucario can come in on Knock/Façade and ko it with Vacuum Wave. Crobat, Flygon, Noivern, Celebi, Starmie, Scarf Xurkitree, Scarf Rotom, Sigilyph, Aerodactyl, Salazzle, and Entei outspeed it and do a lot of damage to it. Celebi can also outright kill it with Aura Sphere. Metagross, Incineroar, Bronzong, Rhyperior, Reuniclus, and Drampa can trade versus it, assuming that Zong and Metagross have defensive investments with Body Press, Reuni is Colbur Berry, and Drampa is Chople Berry. Golisopod can ko it with First Impression (assuming no Obstruct). It can also take any given hit and pivot out with its ability. Some of these checks and counters are top tier, others are a bit more niche. They have, however, all seen usage in big tournaments and are perfectly viable.

To illustrate why I do not think Obstagoon is broken, I will go through some of the biggest tournament games over the past few weeks. The replays were chosen at random. I first went back and gathered all the relevant replays from the final rounds of ru ssnl in which one player was using Obstagoon and the other was not. I then did the same thing for the last round of rupl. I did not include replays where both players were using Obstagoon, as the purpose of these case studies is to study whether a standard team with Obstagoon has a drastic advantage versus a standard team without Obstagoon.

Round 10 (winner’s bracket semi-finals) ru ssnl eifo vs danny
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ru-615927
In this game I am using a fairly standard offense team with Obstagoon, while Danny is using a fairy standard team without Obstagoon. My team has a decent match up, but it is not thanks to Obstagoon. Heliolisk is faster and kos goon, Flygon is faster and can U-turn for a lot of chip, and he has a good switchin in Rocky Helmet Weezing-G. Consequently, my Obstagoon ends up not doing too much, trading a bit of chip on Weezing for its own life.

Round 11 (loser’s bracket semi-finals) ru ssnl kythr vs bb skarm
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1546246118-tb99etk86yj12ezrddz9d9u0sb0eqqkpw
Kythr has a standard team with Obstagoon, while bb skarm has a standard team without Obstagoon. Once again, the Obstagoon user is not at a big advantage. The opponent has a counter in Weezing-G, a Heliolisk which is faster and can ko it, a Flygon which is faster and can U-turn for chip, a Zong which can take the predicted Façade into Weezing or ko it upon switchin with Body Press, and an Incineroar which can trade vs it.

Round 11 (winner’s bracket finals) ru ssnl eifo vs xiri
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ru-1547982908-d8axcrloitw36d5qxbfizsxapxum400pw
In this replay, I have an Obstagoon vs a team that at first glance seems rather weak to it. Yet, even so, I do not feel at an advantage, because they have a Sigilyph which practically beats my whole team. While they might not have too many defensive answers to Obstagoon, my answers to Sigilyph are arguably worse. It 2hkos my whole team and outspeeds everything except for Rotom and Starmie, the latter of which does little damage back to it. In the end, they manage to kill my Starmie and leave Obstagoon almost dead with their Sigi, while my Goon gets off 50% on Guzzlord, 65% on Golisopod, and kills Sigi. From then and out, the match is still fairly even, and they manage to outplay me for the win. In short, the match up was not drastically in the Obstagoon user’s favour, and the better player, xiri, won the game.

RUPL week 5 lyss vs lily
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ru-619809
This is the kind of match up that could be used to argue that Obstagoon is too good. The Obstagoon user clearly has a drastic advantage over the user that does not use Obstagoon. It outspeeds 5/6 mons, ohkos 4/6, and 2hkos the final two. However, I would contend that the user who refrained from using Obstagoon was not using a standard team. In fact, I would argue that the team is bad. It is slow, passive, and lacks the proper defensive backbone to outstall the opponent. I think the replay does a good job of showcasing this as well. In the end, Obstagoon does not even come out. Instead, Tsareena and Flygon kill everyone.

RUPL week 5 qwily vs beraldinho
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ru-619977
Here we have a standard Goon volt-turn vs a standard bulky offense team which does not have Diancie nor Weezing-G. You often hear people say that such teams are invalidated by Goon, but this replay makes it obvious that this is not the case. Heracross can bluff scarf, Lix can switch in and ko it, Milo can tank a hit and chip it, Crobat can tank a hit and is faster than it, while Mimikyu is faster and discourages the use of Façade and CC. At the same time, Heracross is a big offensive threat and Mimikyu has a great chance at sweeping if played well. Indeed, this is exactly what happened. Goon manages to kill Lix and Milotic, but Mimiyu ends up countersweeping. The Goon user was not at a drastic advantage, and the better player won.

RUPL week 5 Aberforth vs Confide
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ru-620670
Once again, we have two fairly standard bulky offense teams. Goon has an okay good match up, but it does not automatically put its user at a dramatic advantage. The opposite team has a lot of ways to deal with it. Incineroar and Rhyperior can trade vs it, Klefki can switch into it, Starmie does 71-83 with Hydro Pump, Mimikyu outspeeds and is immune to CC/Façade, and Scarf Rotom is faster than it and can volt for good chip. Goon ends up making some progress, weakening Rhyp and killing Klefki, but in return Klefki got up all three layers of spikes, thereby setting the scene for Mimikyu to win if it gets the 50-50 roll vs Gardevoir.

What did we learn from the replays?
In 5 out of 6 cases, the Goon user is not drastically favoured as compared with the player who did not use Goon. In the final case, the case where the Goon user was drastically favoured, the other team cannot be said to be a standard team. In other words, I could not find a single example from recent tour games where a standard team with Obstagoon had a drastic advantage versus a standard team without Obstagoon. Ergo, Obstagoon is not broken.

Is Obstagoon unhealthy?
Thus far I have argued that Obstagoon is neither uncompetitive nor broken. The question, then, is whether it is unhealthy. Ideally, I would want to refrain from banning mons for being unhealthy. I would much prefer to ban mons for being broken or uncompetitive instead. The tiering policy framework clearly states that tiering council should only use this amidst drastic community outcry and a conviction that the move will noticeably result in the better player winning over the lesser player. Granted, I do think it is fair to say that we have received a fair bit of community outcry in the lead up to this suspect test. In that sense, I think it was a perfectly justifiable decision to do a suspect test. However, I am not sure if the tier will actually get more competitive if we ban Obstagoon.

The main argument from the pro-ban crowd seems to be that Obstagoon has a particularly restrictive effect on teambuilding, such to the extent that the meta would be better off without it. The argument usually goes something along the lines of “We only have a few switchins to Obstagoon, all of those switchins are slower than it, and Obstagoon can often benefit from taking their item with Switcheroo. In other words, we have lackluster counterplay, you have to use one of its few counters on every team, and even those counters are not really true counters. Thus, Obstagoon has an unhealthy effect on the meta.”

I have several issues with this take. For one, I simply do not think it is the case that we only have a few mons available that you must use on your team in order to beat Obstagoon. I already listed a bunch of mons that can either check or counter it, and I also showed how it pans out in practice. To me, it does not actually seem as if Obstagoon is extremely restrictive when it comes to building. On the contrary, I think a lot of users simply restrain themselves too much. You do not need a Diancie or Weezing-G on your team to beat Obstagoon, as is evidenced by the tournament replays.

Secondly, I think it is entirely reasonable that players should be expected to prepare for the best breaker in the tier. If your team is exceptionally weak to one of the best mons in the tier, then you should do something about that. For instance, if we go back to the replay of Lyss vs Lily, the latter player’s team consists of a bunch of slow and passive mons that let Goon in while not having any switchins for it. By tweaking this team slightly, we can drastically improve the Goon match up. By replacing Xatu for Crobat, Stakataka for PhysDef Body Press Regi, making Gastrodon Rocky Helmet, and making Roserade bulky, the Obstagoon match up has gone from being terrible to being quite alright.

Finally, I want to say that I understand if people disagree with me on this last point. I think it is perfectly reasonable to argue that Goon is unhealthy. It is hard to determine exactly how much one should be expected to prepare for the best mons in the meta. Drawing that line in the sand between reasonable and unreasonable restrictiveness is very difficult. It is in large part a subjective manner. As such, I will be voting DNB, but I would not be surprised nor appalled if the majority of the voters end up voting ban.

Conclusion
I do not consider Obstagoon to be broken, uncompetitive, nor unhealthy. As such, I will be voting DNB.
 

LBN

is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnus
UPL Champion
Hello my people. In lieu of the lack of posts up until now I have decided to drop a wall of text to make up the difference.

On the derailing of this thread
I must confess that I am a bit disappointed in the posting quality that has plagued this thread up until now. The purpose of this thread is to discuss what to do with Obstagoon. What we wish to see is posts that explore questions such as “Is Obstagoon broken?”, “Is Obstagoon uncompetitive?”, “Is Obstagoon unhealthy?”, and “Would the tier be better off without Obstagoon?” Yet this thread only has one serious post which briefly touches on problematic aspects and argues that Obstagoon should be banned for being unhealthy. The rest of this thread is filled with unserious one liners. This is somewhat surprising, considering how eager many users have been to voice their concern over Obstagoon in the past month or so. As soon as it became clear that Cobalion could leave the tier, tens of users immediately called for Obstagoon to either be banned or suspect tested. Where those voices went nobody knows. Perhaps they thought the outcome of the suspect test was already a foregone conclusion and therefore decided not to bother with any posting. They would obviously be well in their right to do so, as nobody should be forced to make forum posts. Nevertheless, it is rather disappointing to witness what is supposedly a serious topic of discussion deteriorate into a series of shitposts whose content is about as informative as your average frat guy drunk partytalk on a friday night.

On the Obstagoon question
Anyway, leaving aside my qualms about the terrible posting quality, I do want to touch a bit on what should be the main topic here: should we ban Obstagoon? My starting point will be the tiering policy framework, according to which the purpose of tiering policy is to “create a metagame that is conducive to the more "skilled" player winning over the less "skilled" player a majority of the time.” In order to facilitate the development of such a metagame, we ought to remove elements that are either “uncompetitive”, “broken”, or “unhealthy”. All of these elements reduce the amount of skill involved to a significant extent and thus produce a metagame that is undesirable. However, if a given element cannot be said to be either uncompetitive, broken, or unhealthy, then it should not be banned. Ergo, in order to ban Obstagoon, it would need to be either uncompetitive, broken, or unhealthy.

Definitions
An element is “uncompetitive” if it reduces the effect of player choice to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant. Examples of this include OHKO-moves, evasion, and moody, all of which tend to produce a game state in which RNG is emphasised at the cost of battling skill.

An element is “broken” if it is too good relative to the rest of the metagame, such to the extent where a standard team without the broken element facing a standard team with the broken element would be at a drastic disadvantage. Additionally, an element is broken if its counters or checks are extraordinarily niche Pokemon that would otherwise put the team at a significant disadvantage.

By unhealthy elements, I mean elements that are neither uncompetitive nor broken yet are deemed undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit "skillful play" to a large extent. These are elements that may not limit either team building or battling skill enough individually but combine to cause an effect that is undesirable for the metagame.

According to the tiering policy framework, unhealthy elements are the most controversial and subjective and should therefore be used the most sparingly. The Tiering Councils will only use this amidst drastic community outcry and a conviction that the move will noticeably result in the better player winning over the lesser player. This is a last-ditch, subjective catch-all, and tiering arguments should focus on uncompetitive or broken first.

Is Obstagoon uncompetitive?
Let me begin by stating the obvious: Obstagoon is not uncompetitive. The mon has five main moves: Knock Off, Close Combat, Façade, Switcheroo, and Obstruct. You occasionally also see moves such as Double Edge or Parting Shot. All of these moves are perfectly accurate. You know what will happen each turn. The only RNG involved is a potential crit, but that is the case for all moves in the game. Thus, I can confidently say that Obstagoon is not uncompetitive.

Is Obstagoon broken?
This is a much more contentious point. In my opinion it is not broken. I do not think that a standard team with Obstagoon will necessarily be at a drastic advantage over a standard team without Obstagoon. Nor do I think that its counters and checks are extraordinarily niche pokemon. While the departure of Cobalion certainly makes Goon harder to deal with, I believe that we still have access to plentiful offensive and defensive counterplay. Weezing-G, Diancie, Bewear, Steelix, physically defensive Registeel, and Klefki switch into it and ko it. Mimikyu not only outspeeds and kos it, but it also discourages the use of CC and Façade in general. Heliolisk, Raikou, Tornadus, Inteleon, Virizion, Scarf Gardevoir, Scarf Heracross, Scarf Togekiss, Scarf Regidrago, Scarf Tyrantrum, and Scarf Pangoro all outspeed and ko it. Kingdra, Kabutops, Ludicolo, and Seismitoad outsped and ko it in rain. Shiftry, Charizard, and Entei outsped and ko it in sun. Arctovish and Arctozolt outsped and ko it in hail. Sharpedo outspends and kos it after a speed boost. Lucario can come in on Knock/Façade and ko it with Vacuum Wave. Crobat, Flygon, Noivern, Celebi, Starmie, Scarf Xurkitree, Scarf Rotom, Sigilyph, Aerodactyl, Salazzle, and Entei outspeed it and do a lot of damage to it. Celebi can also outright kill it with Aura Sphere. Metagross, Incineroar, Bronzong, Rhyperior, Reuniclus, and Drampa can trade versus it, assuming that Zong and Metagross have defensive investments with Body Press, Reuni is Colbur Berry, and Drampa is Chople Berry. Golisopod can ko it with First Impression (assuming no Obstruct). It can also take any given hit and pivot out with its ability. Some of these checks and counters are top tier, others are a bit more niche. They have, however, all seen usage in big tournaments and are perfectly viable.

To illustrate why I do not think Obstagoon is broken, I will go through some of the biggest tournament games over the past few weeks. The replays were chosen at random. I first went back and gathered all the relevant replays from the final rounds of ru ssnl in which one player was using Obstagoon and the other was not. I then did the same thing for the last round of rupl. I did not include replays where both players were using Obstagoon, as the purpose of these case studies is to study whether a standard team with Obstagoon has a drastic advantage versus a standard team without Obstagoon.

Round 10 (winner’s bracket semi-finals) ru ssnl eifo vs danny
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ru-615927
In this game I am using a fairly standard offense team with Obstagoon, while Danny is using a fairy standard team without Obstagoon. My team has a decent match up, but it is not thanks to Obstagoon. Heliolisk is faster and kos goon, Flygon is faster and can U-turn for a lot of chip, and he has a good switchin in Rocky Helmet Weezing-G. Consequently, my Obstagoon ends up not doing too much, trading a bit of chip on Weezing for its own life.

Round 11 (loser’s bracket semi-finals) ru ssnl kythr vs bb skarm
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1546246118-tb99etk86yj12ezrddz9d9u0sb0eqqkpw
Kythr has a standard team with Obstagoon, while bb skarm has a standard team without Obstagoon. Once again, the Obstagoon user is not at a big advantage. The opponent has a counter in Weezing-G, a Heliolisk which is faster and can ko it, a Flygon which is faster and can U-turn for chip, a Zong which can take the predicted Façade into Weezing or ko it upon switchin with Body Press, and an Incineroar which can trade vs it.

Round 11 (winner’s bracket finals) ru ssnl eifo vs xiri
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ru-1547982908-d8axcrloitw36d5qxbfizsxapxum400pw
In this replay, I have an Obstagoon vs a team that at first glance seems rather weak to it. Yet, even so, I do not feel at an advantage, because they have a Sigilyph which practically beats my whole team. While they might not have too many defensive answers to Obstagoon, my answers to Sigilyph are arguably worse. It 2hkos my whole team and outspeeds everything except for Rotom and Starmie, the latter of which does little damage back to it. In the end, they manage to kill my Starmie and leave Obstagoon almost dead with their Sigi, while my Goon gets off 50% on Guzzlord, 65% on Golisopod, and kills Sigi. From then and out, the match is still fairly even, and they manage to outplay me for the win. In short, the match up was not drastically in the Obstagoon user’s favour, and the better player, xiri, won the game.

RUPL week 5 lyss vs lily
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ru-619809
This is the kind of match up that could be used to argue that Obstagoon is too good. The Obstagoon user clearly has a drastic advantage over the user that does not use Obstagoon. It outspeeds 5/6 mons, ohkos 4/6, and 2hkos the final two. However, I would contend that the user who refrained from using Obstagoon was not using a standard team. In fact, I would argue that the team is bad. It is slow, passive, and lacks the proper defensive backbone to outstall the opponent. I think the replay does a good job of showcasing this as well. In the end, Obstagoon does not even come out. Instead, Tsareena and Flygon kill everyone.

RUPL week 5 qwily vs beraldinho
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ru-619977
Here we have a standard Goon volt-turn vs a standard bulky offense team which does not have Diancie nor Weezing-G. You often hear people say that such teams are invalidated by Goon, but this replay makes it obvious that this is not the case. Heracross can bluff scarf, Lix can switch in and ko it, Milo can tank a hit and chip it, Crobat can tank a hit and is faster than it, while Mimikyu is faster and discourages the use of Façade and CC. At the same time, Heracross is a big offensive threat and Mimikyu has a great chance at sweeping if played well. Indeed, this is exactly what happened. Goon manages to kill Lix and Milotic, but Mimiyu ends up countersweeping. The Goon user was not at a drastic advantage, and the better player won.

RUPL week 5 Aberforth vs Confide
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ru-620670
Once again, we have two fairly standard bulky offense teams. Goon has an okay good match up, but it does not automatically put its user at a dramatic advantage. The opposite team has a lot of ways to deal with it. Incineroar and Rhyperior can trade vs it, Klefki can switch into it, Starmie does 71-83 with Hydro Pump, Mimikyu outspeeds and is immune to CC/Façade, and Scarf Rotom is faster than it and can volt for good chip. Goon ends up making some progress, weakening Rhyp and killing Klefki, but in return Klefki got up all three layers of spikes, thereby setting the scene for Mimikyu to win if it gets the 50-50 roll vs Gardevoir.

What did we learn from the replays?
In 5 out of 6 cases, the Goon user is not drastically favoured as compared with the player who did not use Goon. In the final case, the case where the Goon user was drastically favoured, the other team cannot be said to be a standard team. In other words, I could not find a single example from recent tour games where a standard team with Obstagoon had a drastic advantage versus a standard team without Obstagoon. Ergo, Obstagoon is not broken.

Is Obstagoon unhealthy?
Thus far I have argued that Obstagoon is neither uncompetitive nor broken. The question, then, is whether it is unhealthy. Ideally, I would want to refrain from banning mons for being unhealthy. I would much prefer to ban mons for being broken or uncompetitive instead. The tiering policy framework clearly states that tiering council should only use this amidst drastic community outcry and a conviction that the move will noticeably result in the better player winning over the lesser player. Granted, I do think it is fair to say that we have received a fair bit of community outcry in the lead up to this suspect test. In that sense, I think it was a perfectly justifiable decision to do a suspect test. However, I am not sure if the tier will actually get more competitive if we ban Obstagoon.

The main argument from the pro-ban crowd seems to be that Obstagoon has a particularly restrictive effect on teambuilding, such to the extent that the meta would be better off without it. The argument usually goes something along the lines of “We only have a few switchins to Obstagoon, all of those switchins are slower than it, and Obstagoon can often benefit from taking their item with Switcheroo. In other words, we have lackluster counterplay, you have to use one of its few counters on every team, and even those counters are not really true counters. Thus, Obstagoon has an unhealthy effect on the meta.”

I have several issues with this take. For one, I simply do not think it is the case that we only have a few mons available that you must use on your team in order to beat Obstagoon. I already listed a bunch of mons that can either check or counter it, and I also showed how it pans out in practice. To me, it does not actually seem as if Obstagoon is extremely restrictive when it comes to building. On the contrary, I think a lot of users simply restrain themselves too much. You do not need a Diancie or Weezing-G on your team to beat Obstagoon, as is evidenced by the tournament replays.

Secondly, I think it is entirely reasonable that players should be expected to prepare for the best breaker in the tier. If your team is exceptionally weak to one of the best mons in the tier, then you should do something about that. For instance, if we go back to the replay of Lyss vs Lily, the latter player’s team consists of a bunch of slow and passive mons that let Goon in while not having any switchins for it. By tweaking this team slightly, we can drastically improve the Goon match up. By replacing Xatu for Crobat, Stakataka for PhysDef Body Press Regi, making Gastrodon Rocky Helmet, and making Roserade bulky, the Obstagoon match up has gone from being terrible to being quite alright.

Finally, I want to say that I understand if people disagree with me on this last point. I think it is perfectly reasonable to argue that Goon is unhealthy. It is hard to determine exactly how much one should be expected to prepare for the best mons in the meta. Drawing that line in the sand between reasonable and unreasonable restrictiveness is very difficult. It is in large part a subjective manner. As such, I will be voting DNB, but I would not be surprised nor appalled if the majority of the voters end up voting ban.

Conclusion
I do not consider Obstagoon to be broken, uncompetitive, nor unhealthy. As such, I will be voting DNB.
No. I ain't letting pro-obstagoon propaganda slide. Firstly, Obstagoon objectively does not have truly safe switchins if you tap into its movepool. Various Tech options such as Iron Tail for diancie, Stomping tantrum for Klefki, Registeel and Diancie. Gweezing worth mentioning but even with neutralizing gas facade still deals up to ranges of roughly 38%, which is 1: easily 2hkoing after the next encounter, and 2; if you want to stop this from happening, you gotta pain split, which isn't reliable, and is also exploitable to let pokemon in to continue the voltturn train, because thats where obstagoon fits best, bulky offense and hard offense. It also doesn't help that Gweezing really doesn't do anything else of note when its stuck into Neutralizing gas, and is easily a 5v6 in alot of other matchups besides Heracross and you'd rather run a better pokemon like Nidoqueen to do that anyways.

Another point i'd like to mention is the effect obstagoon has on how the metagame functions. Having a pokemon this fast that can do incredibly stupid numbers really hampers any ability to run a balance team, and while i don't think stall would be amazing without obstagoon, i absolutely think obstagoon is a fat half of the reason why the playstyle isn't good. Let's also not forget there are a good amount of pokemon who Registeel will also be tasked with handling, like you know, Togekiss. While not the only one, Togekiss is a huge beneficiary of Obstagoon choking specific pokemon good at handling it, such as Bronzong, making Registeel run Phys def, and weakening Diancie down for it to abuse.

The meta is very offensively inclined, in part due to Crobat yes, but i think Obstagoon is a big reason why people don't try to defensively handle things more often than not, because it's incredibly difficult to do so with such a strong pokemon to pivot into. While others can take it spot, pokemon like boots Heracross for example, Obstagoon is a bit too good at its job of abusing these pivoters utility. We suspect tested Mienshao over Xurkitree on similar grounds, Mienshao was seen as a prime enabler for Xurkitree, and suspecting Shao instead proved the idea of Xurkitree not being broken. While it's not as agregious a case, Crobat is certainly an easy pick to make, as are our immense amount of pivots like Rotom-mow, Raikou, Tornadus, Heliolisk, Milotic, Xurkitree, noivern is indeed a pokemon in the tier i guess, and others like Starmie.

Obstagoon is hideously stupid in the tier, constricting building to an unhealthy degree and arguably warping the tiers landscape into a more offensive note to handle it, with incredibly lackluster switchins on the defensive side, and thus if i actually get reqs because RU ladder is worse than herpes, im voting ban
 

MrAldo

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The main problem the tier has with Obstagoon is how heavily disadvantageous the interactions are with the normal resists in the tier, pretty much of all of them going into Obstagoon favor in the long run at worst. Like lets take into considerations valid normal resists that just dont flop to close combat (aka not stakataka): all of them despise losing their item so they are already getting into a problem with just hazards damage and Obstagoon perfect coverage really just means something is getting damaged straight up so there is zero risk involved in literally pressing buttons, especially considering how passive all the responses are.

Thats where cobalion came up as a solution to keep it at bay cause it could always outspeed the most dangerous set. Right now your best bet to consistently beat it like on offensive builds is having a steel or rock type that can take a hit (steelix, regi, rhyperior, diancie) and pair it with a vacuum wave mon (as in the most common options cause there arent viable mach punch users) to have the revenge kill on deck, and thats already pretty restricting. One of the main reasons Mimikyu is so valuable now on offense and just so easy to through (and very easy to support) is how it is a practical normal immunity that is always faster than goon (and that Mimikyu is kind of crazy too, but thats another topic). And lets not even talk about its actually incredible coverage to maul some of its switch-ins if it wanted to.

In the end, Obstagoon risk reward is really skewed toward its favor. You really only risks rocky helmet damage from a klefki on an incoming mon and like missing the mark on somebody ballsy enough to switch Mimikyu directly into an Obstagoon for some reason. I have loved this mon since its introduction, but for the sake of the tier health and for it to be somewhat memorable I believe it has to go. I just dont see how the tiering can move forward with Obsta in it.
 

Feliburn

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I personally agree a lot with some stuff eifo mentioned in his post. There are plenty of ways to beat Obstagoon without having to use a direct counter, as I mentioned before. Usually, my way of building is just using a mon that can take 2 hits from it, and pair it with faster pivots/breakers, in order to limit how much it can break my team.

I've said that I think Goon is manageable without having to directly build vs it. HOWEVER, I do agree that in terms of indirect influence, Goon is one of the main reasons the meta has shifted towards more offensive builds. Running slower teams kind of force you to run a Weezing, which does handle other mons like Heracross well. But at that point it actually feels like a "must have" because of it.

I still feel iffy on if I want to vote ban or not, but I can totally understand both sides of the discussion. Furthermore, I'm super happy people are actually looking at the don't ban argument more, as before the suspect it felt like the entire player base was pro ban, so it becomes one of those instances where people are actively learning and voicing their personal opinions, instead of doing what everyone else says.

Would love to see more quality posting, such as the 3 posts above, as it allows for other people to feel invited to show their perspectives.
 
I don't usually post about Suspects because, by the time one comes around, the result feels like a foregone conclusion. I guess the Reuniclus suspect here is proof that isn't necessarily true, but I'm really appreciative about the thoughtful DNB/on the fence posts above.

It's really amazing to me that Coballion's rising is considered the final straw for lots of folks with Obstagoon. With or without Coba, either 'Goon is "just" a tier-defining breaker that is best handled by offensive pressure and overall team design, **or** it's an over-centralizing force that invalidates less-offensive play styles. The idea that losing exactly one effective offensive counter (that only acts as a counter one time with one specific set) somehow pushed Goon into ban-able territory is...a little nuts to me? Maybe we were headed this direction before tier shifts, but there also hasn't been a ton of time to adapt and see if the rises improve the viability of any other 'mons that can help keep 'Goon in check.

On that note, I've *really* been enjoying Mudsdale lately, and I think it's helped a lot by Volcanion rising. It still doesn't love the abundance of waters and grasses here, but Volc and LO Starmie are the only ones that absolutely *required* it to switch, no matter the % (oh, and mixed Sharpedo, which I always forget is technically a water type).

:Mudsdale: @ Leftovers
Ability: Stamina
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Earthquake
- Toxic / Heavy Slam / Stealth Rock
- Protect

With Stamina and Leftovers, 'Goon has only a sliver of a chance to even 3HKO Mudsdale with Facade. Protect gives extra turns for leftovers recovery and gives space to scout for switcheroo and build up 'Goon's own burn-orb chip. STAB EQ from a base 125 Attack needs no investment to wreck the things you need it to, and Stamina boosts BPs power without needing to commit a move slot, so you're free to run other stuff in your last slot. I like toxic for synergy with Protect (and because there are plenty of better rockers around), but your team is your team.

And Horse is great even for matches without Obstagoon! And if you want to get really meme-y, my heart of hearts tells me that a RestTalk set with Body Press and Heavy Slam has legs on the right team.

This replay is just a pure Horse flex from turn 10 on, even if it also showcases the tier's lack of familiarity with what it can do.
Here's another one where the luxury of protect stalling pulls me through a matchup that my team was not remotely prepared for.
Finally, this replay isn't the finest showing for me or my opponent, but it begins with Mudsdale eating an adamant, band Power Whip from Grimsnarl to toxic it with health to spare to sneak back in later and continue its work later. Horse. is. bulky.

That last replay also includes some closing work from a set that was my immediate response to Mr Aldo's claim that we have "no viable Mach Punch users": a Hitmontop set I call "Oops! All Priority"

:Hitmontop: @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Mach Punch
- Bullet Punch
- Bulk Up

In the late game, this guy can help clean all manner of stuff, patching up holes for lingering offensive threats that could otherwise be hard to clean up, especially boosters. Even Crobat folds to it at ~50%. I run it with some toxic spam to make Fake Out even more valuable and with slow pivots to give it more opportunity to sneak in early. Bulk Up is there in case there's an obvious switch coming your way and the extra oomph puts you in position to clean up multiple mons or take less LO recoil (+1 Bullet Punch deals more damage to Togekiss than Fake Out into Bullet Punch, for example).

This replay, while dismissible by some as me running a low-ladder trash team (Hitmontop, Mudsdale, itemless Dhelmise, etc), shows how surprisingly useful Hitmontop can be. It's the pokemon that put me in the driver's seat as soon as RNGesus delivered me from ParaFlinch to land the toxic on turn 13. It provided a security blanket for Flygon, Obstagoon, and Togekiss in one slot, giving me freedom to maximize my options for dealing with Reuniclus. It's fun!

All of this to say, I wouldn't mind seeing Obstagoon go, but we have more viable counterplay than we're willing to admit without going into gimmicks that are Obstagoon-exclusive (I would say both of these sets are more broadly useful than Neutralizing Gas Gweezing). I wish we had more than another few days for new techs to proliferate and change folks' opinions.
 

Expulso

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Playing RU with Obstagoon feels to me like watching the “Suspect OU” tier in SMPL, where they let the least broken (relatively speaking) Ubers loose for a week or two. In that tier, Blaziken and Aegislash were freed, and people made them look fairly balanced because everyone was aware that this huge threat was a likely bring from their opponent and built teams that could handle it. They used niche counters like Slowbro and Mandibuzz and/or set up the team so that almost every mon on their team denied opportunities to these extremely powerful Ubers mons.

Playing RU with Obstagoon feels the same way to me. Weezing-Galar is incredibly passive and also takes 40 from Facade + doesn’t have recovery, an insane amount of damage for something that is nominally one of the best counters; Diancie loses long-term to hazards and Flame Orb / Facade chip while also being among the tier’s most passive mons. Sure, you can slap on these niche counters, but they don’t even do a great job and also mean you’re using a crazy passive mon that lets in tons of other scary breakers. This means that we tend to resort to using blanket physical checks like PDef Regi, Lix, Bewear, and Rhyperior. These are all weak to CC and only hold it off for maybe one switch-in; they’re also all physical attackers that hate receiving a Flame Orb.

I feel that arguments for Goon being balanced hold it to an impossible standard. As the SMPL Suspect OU analogy shows, even the most broken mons can be fended off by some niche counter or aggressive doubles.

It is hard to determine exactly how much one should be expected to prepare for the best mons in the meta. Drawing that line in the sand between reasonable and unreasonable restrictiveness is very difficult. It is in large part a subjective manner.
I fully agree with this statement by eifo despite our different conclusions — it’s why, for instance, I haven’t supported a Blastoise ban in NU. However I think Goon’s combo of speed, power, and narrow pool of checks is far above what the new “best mon”’s would be. Togekiss is slower and less immediately strong; it does have a fairly limited pool of reliable checks, the Electrics, but falls short in those other areas. Golisopod forces a flying-type onto many teams but is far slower and, of course, easier to force out. Reuniclus is checked by all of ghosts, bugs, and darks, giving u multiple different options to draw from in each type; again, it’s also vastly slower. I could go thru all the S and A+ ranks in a similar fashion — my point is that no top threat matches Goon’s degree of speed, immediate power, and limited checks. Checking the top mons in a post-Goon meta will be a significantly less daunting task than checking Goon, which is why I wholeheartedly believe it should be banned.
 
After completing my suspect test and some thinking. Here are my thoughts about Obstagoon. I am still, however new to RU and Smogon in general so you may find yourself disagreeing or inaccurate with some of the stuff I have to say (This is actually my first post of doing some "competitive analysis").

Pls don't roast me alive, without further ado, here are some of my thoughts.

1. Let's talk about the U-Turn users that give it a hard time. The only pokemon that can U-Turn on it safely are Flygon and Crobat (Thanks to Wigglytuff for pointing that out), which can be scouted out with Obstruct. Anything slower than Obstagoon trying to U-turn on it can be punished by Obstruct which can give some momentum and Switcheroo.

2. Fairies Types. Many people say that Weezing-Galar is a counter to Obstagoon since it can neutralize Guts. I'd like to say that I disagree that Weezing-Galar is counter more of a check (via Strange Steam) due to how much it takes from Facade (252 Atk Guts Obstagoon Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar: 169-201 (50.5 - 60.1%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery), on top of that it can lose it's Black Sludge making recovery harder to deal with. I'd also like to point out how spammable Facade is with only Ghost Types being immune and Steel Types taking resisted damage. I'd like to make the same argument for other Fairies in the tier such as Togekiss and Klefki as they have the potential to get 2HKO by Facade and Close Combat respectively. I feel like the only counter to Obstagoon is Diancie as it resists both STABs.

3. Next let's talk about the Ghost Types that exist in RU that are immune to it's Facade. Earlier I said that Facade is "spammable", my reasoning to this is due to the amount of Ghost-Types that fear it's Knock Off, the only pokemon that takes neutral damage from it is Mimikyu (which takes half + Obstagoon can outspeed). Even if one of these Ghost pokemon switch into a Facade, Obstagoon and it's team still has a bunch of momentum on their side due to the pressure of Knock Off and the fact that Obstagoon outspeeds all but one Ghost Type being Mimikyu.

4. Fighting Types. With the loss of Cobalion, there are no Fighting types that can safely switch into Obstagoon, some of them can't even be checks due to it's Speed tier as well. The only Fighting Type checks that come to mind is Vacuum Wave Lucario (I didn't know this was a thing). Bewear however, can be considered a counter due to Fluffy.

5. Last but not least, Steels. It said earlier in the post that Bronzong and Registeel both give it a hard time with Body Press however I'd like to bring up a point about Bronzong. With the help of Obstruct or Switcheroo, Obstagoon can easily get past Bronzong and either kill or cripple it. The same can be said about other Steel Types like Steelix and Stakataka. Registeel on the other hand, I'd like to think of it more as a check since it gets 2HKO by Close Combat but thanks to Clear Body Obstruct doesn't have any effect on it.

Overall here is what I deduced for Obstagoon's checks and counters:
Counters: Diacine and Bewear
Checks: Weezing-Galar, Mimikyu, Flygon, Crobat, Raikou and Noivern (I'll get into them later), Vacuum Wave Lucario (Who runs this?), Registeel, Klefki, Togekiss, Choice Scarf users like Heracross and Gardevoir, Rhyperior.

6. I'd like to bring up it's match up vs archetypes such as Offense, Balance and Stall. I'll keep this short and sweet.
Offense: With base 95 Speed, I can see it having a hard time vs faster threats such as Raikou and Noivern as their STABs can 2HKO Obstagoon and beat it in a 1v1 situation. On top of that, it also has to be wary of Choice Scarf users that could kill it such as Gardevoir and Heracross. In terms of teambuilding, it's not to the degree where it is "hard" to build against it since there are many pokemon that can pose a threat to it naturally. That being said, Obstagoon has some decent bulk as well and take a hit if needed to revenge kill. There is not alot of pokemon on Offense that can tank a Guts boosted Facade from full, to name a few that could be on Offense.
252 Atk Guts Obstagoon Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Noivern: 321-378 (103.2 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Guts Obstagoon Facade (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 300-354 (93.1 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Guts Obstagoon Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross: 336-396 (111.6 - 131.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I personally used Obstagoon on a Webs team so then it could capitalize on killing faster threats from the speed drop.

Balance/Bulky Offense (I have the same points for both when I really thought about it): I could argue that teambuilding against Obstagoon can be harder due to the lack of counters that could exist. Even playing with these teams vs Obstagoon can prove stressful because of the constant fear of the synergy of Knock Off/Close Combat/Facade hitting what each move can't (For example Facade can't hit Ghost Types but Knock Off can kill them off allowing Facade to be clicked more) With that being said, quoting PermaSnow "balance or even bulky offense team risks having its defensive cores destroyed by a couple good Obstagoon plays". I feel like this statement sums it up perfectly as Obstagoon is 100% capable of 2HKO anything in the RU tier with some proper prediction. Rhyperior however, deserves a mention as Obstagoon will always 3HKO it but lacks the recovery to act like a "full counter" Here are some calcs to further prove the point.
252 Atk Guts Obstagoon Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 214-254 (58.7 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Guts Obstagoon Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Klefki: 165-195 (51.8 - 61.3%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Guts Obstagoon Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Seismitoad: 243-286 (58.6 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Guts Obstagoon Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Incineroar: 291-343 (73.8 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <- (I don't know if Phy Def Incineroar was a thing but keep me posted if such as set exists + the spread, I'm actually curious)
252 Atk Guts Obstagoon Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 244-288 (57.2 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Stall: I feel like if Obstagoon is running Switcheroo, then it has a good matchup against it depending on the Pokemon on it. If the Stall team doesn't have pokemon such as Bewear and Diacine, it can get picked apart easily but, I highly doubt this is the case where a stall team wouldn't prep for it due to it's wallbreaking potential shown earlier.

Conclusion: Overall these are my points about Obstagoon. I feel like this mon deserves a ban due to it's insane coverage and limited checks/counters with the counters I thought of being in NU for the most part.

Tl;dr: Ban Obstagoon, Heracross better Guts user

Once again, new to smogon and RU in general so you may disagree or find inaccurate with what I say but I'm looking forward to hear your thoughts about what I had to say and Obstagoon in general!
 

Feliburn

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I've deleted some posts, as one-liners without much context or insight would just lower the quality of the discussion. Please try to expand on your point of views a bit more, just like the more recent posts in this thread.

For more casual tier discussion, feel free to join our discord, or our PS room! Would hate to see new users discouraged to talk about the meta, and I appreciate all the interest :heart:
 
My opinion on this is, I do think Obstagoon should stay. There are many counters to it in the meta, and counters that can be implemented into the meta until Obstagoon becomes old news. For example, Lucario with Vacuum Wave could break down Obstagoon with full investment and also make a fairly decent attempt on Registeel. Also, Body Press on the bulky Pokemon like Registeel handles Obstagoon straight away. If Registeel has set up prior, it OHKOS your Obstagoon. Also, it’s offensive capabilities are extremely overexaggerated. However, if there is ANY, and I mean, ANY, way to get a Registeel suspect, I do hope we get one. I’ve talked about it breaking the focus of this, Obstagoon. Overall, I hope everyone keeps having fun with RU, goodbye.
 

Feliburn

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Obstagoon has been banned! You can see the results here.

With this, it should be interesting to see the development the metagame will see in the final stretch of the generation.


Mimikyu is something that has been catching my attention after the Cobalion shift. This mon was already super annoying to handle, and it seems like it just keeps getting better. With Obstagoon gone, Mimikyu can safely run Adamant as a nature for higher damage output, tho you'd still be slower than max speed Roserade. It's for sure a mon I have to keep in mind when building almost all the time.

What other mons you think are getting better? I've seen a lot of people using weather archetypes as well (hail, sun, rain), but I think it goes in hand with the common trend of offense being the main archetype used, as weather usually bops offensive teams away.
 
What other mons you think are getting better? I've seen a lot of people using weather archetypes as well (hail, sun, rain), but I think it goes in hand with the common trend of offense being the main archetype used, as weather usually bops offensive teams away.
I don’t play RU often but from what I can tell….

EDE7ACD7-13F4-44BF-BC05-52B9D95555BC.png
59957DBE-5BB3-4863-ABBA-22910987FDF5.png
65730F80-89EF-49D6-85DF-E385FA87D40E.png
B53346F7-393A-495E-9174-9FA05C00298B.png
3D090819-C730-41BF-BA4C-66A84615BFE9.png

No longer fearing an OHKO from Goon’s Knock and Zong no longer needing BP to lure the now banned Goon. Reuniclus especially was a huge winner with the departure of Goon. It feared Knock and due to the amount of mons that tend to U-Turn/Volt Switch on Reun, it often let in Goon while doing little in return. Jelli no longer fears its burns being blocked by Goon. No Goon means more Psychics which means more victims to Dhelmise.

7935B645-18D6-4ED2-BA46-6923CEB9E384.png

Balance/Fat loves the ban of Goon for obvious reasons, having one less breaker to worry about. Umb already appreciated the departure of Coba, but now it became harder to crack open.

835C3B46-91E3-4086-B1D1-4FE214ABA616.png

Herra is now the Guts wallbreaker of the tier. Herra was outsped and couldn’t compare to Goon’s versatility and STAB Facade/Knock.
 
Winners:
:Pangoro: :Incineroar: :Guzzlord:
These three were already plenty viable, but they're now the premier Dark types of the tier, IMO. They hit all of the psychics, ghosts, and steels (kinda-sorta on Guzz's part) that Obstagoon did, and they all have their own wrinkles to add. They lose out on speed, but the tier feels like it's in a really weird place speed-wise, anyway, in part because of the loss of Goon, Coba, and Darm in such short order. There aren't a lot of options for hitting hard *and* fast, and most of them hit on the special side of the spectrum, which brings us to...

:Umbreon:
Losing another physical attacker that could chunk it without setup (and that resisted Foul Play) just lets Umbreon players find even more opportunities to go YOLO with Foul Play without worrying about dipping too low on health, chunking away at the likes of Heliolisk/Xurk/Raikou/Rose/etc., and keeping up the pressure against physical attackers that assume they have safe entry against a "passive" mon.

:Registeel:
I'm pretty sure ID/BP just got even better, amazingly enough. I've been running it on on SpDef Registeel for a while, and it's amazing how safe it is to come in on a special attacker, click Iron Defense on the switch to Flygon/Goon/Whatever, and be in position to wall and/or obliterate half the tier.

:Celebi: :Togekiss:
I think Nasty Plot sets on these two are going to become indispensable in combating the fat 'mons that are about to become even stronger following Obstagoon's exit (like the above). Both find it fairly easy to set up, have instant recovery, and can tech a variety of coverage options depending on the team's needs.

:Heracross: :Lucario:
The new cream-of-the-crop physical breakers/cleaners of the tier. Heracross was already good, but its Guts set just got better, now that Obstagoon can't hit it in the face with a Facade of its own anymore. Scarf sets remain solid, and the differing responses between the two helps boots sets (or other alternatives) immensely in the early game. Goon leaving doesn't help Lucario nearly as much as Coballion's rise did, but Goon could still take a +2 Extreme Speed more comfortably than anything left in the tier that's faster than Lucario. Lucario can now jump into its sweep even earlier on average.

:Mimikyu:
Really probably stays the same considering the value it had as a pseudo Obstagoon counter, but it counters Heracross and Lucario about as nicely as it did Obstagoon. So with those 'mons getting "winner" status from me, so does Mimikyu

That's all I have time for; may ponder losers later
 
This post won’t be too long, but I do want to take a moment to highlight two mons I think benefitted from Obstagoon’s ban as well as the recent shifts:

:ss/togekiss:
Nasty Plot Togekiss certainly enjoys Cobalion moving to UU and, to a lesser extent, Obstagoon leaving. While Nasty Plot Togekiss still has answers, it lost one of its checks in Cobalion and should transitively enjoy a decrease in Diancie usage now that Goon has been banned. It can still struggle to make progress against Electric- and Rock-types of course, but the goat and the badger leaving are net gains.

:ss/reuniclus:
I’ve been playing a lot with AV Reuniclus since Obstagoon left and it feels much easier to make progress with in the latter’s absence. Previously, setting Future Sight carried the risk of giving Obstagoon a breaking opportunity, making it a potential momentum sink if you reached for it instead of Focus Blast. Now, AV Reuniclus can more reliably help bulky offense teams make progress.

That’s all I’ve got for now. The meta has yet to crystallize post-Obstagoon ban, but these two definitely seem to be seeing early returns and increased freedom of movement.
 

Ampha

"They don’t call me Greed for nothing!"
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
1651260366031.png

Seriously wanna talk abt this thing now, this thing got all it wanted in the recent meta shift, not only :cobalion: left which was a huge annoyance for it but also :darmanitan: left the 95 crowd and most importantly, :obstagoon: being banned means -1 for the 95 crowd as well AND competition for breaker spot
but talking about this thing itself now, not only 95 Speed is huge for RU, outspeeding a huge part of our mons, but its also toxic immune, has a huge phys def which not only CAN SD IN FRONT OF CROBAT AND UMBREON but allows it to take a few hits as well, poison/dark combination as well means that reuniclus can not simply click Focus blast on switch and you instantly die or take a huge from it, anf gives you some nice resistances
it has its flaws as well since you have to watch out for ground peeps and faster sp things, but I do see this thing being decent after the recent shifts
 

Aqua Jet

Stardew
is a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Spikes in SS RarelyUsed

Overview
In my opinion, Spikes is one of the best moves in the RU metagame right now, despite the continued dominance of superman Pokémon (that is - Pokémon that aren't grounded). Damaging foes that lack good reliable recovery such as Registeel, Heracross, and Metagross is invaluable, as without these defensive pillars many teams struggle to deal with many threats such as Lucario, Mimikyu, and Nidoqueen.
:SS/Klefki:

Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 240 SpD / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave
- Toxic
- Dazzling Gleam

The best spiker, Klefki is almost mandatory on every spikes team. Not only does it set spikes, but it also deters common removal options such as Crobat and Dhelmise from removing hazards in front of it via Thunder Wave and Toxic, respectively. In addition, it naturally survives Defog Flygon's Earthquake (though admittedly, this is not the most common set and I do not recommend staying in on Flygon) and can fire back with Dazzling Gleam, dealing about 55% damage.

:SS/Roserade:
Roserade @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spikes
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Synthesis

Despite Klefki being a better Spiker, Roserade is not without good traits, Unlike Klefki, you are forced out by Crobat, but Roserade also pressures foes like Mimikyu and Gastrodon. In addition, Roserade has reliable recovery in Synthesis and a way to rid itself of burn without relying on a Clerc.

Abusers
:SS/Articuno-Galar:
Articuno-Galar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
- U-turn
- Freezing Glare
- Hurricane
- Recover

Starting with what I feel to be an underrated spikes abuser, we look to the Psychic-type bird of the Crown Tundra. Despite being completely walled by any Steel-type not named Bronzong (and even then it only wins at +2), I believe Articuno to be an amazing Defog deterrent as not only can it switch into Crobat's Brave Bird, but it can chip all of the Steel-types in the tier for decent damage, especially considering all of them lack reliable recovery.

:SS/Mimikyu:
Mimikyu @ Life Orb
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 SpA
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Sneak
- Shadow Claw
- Play Rough

Another abuser of spikes, Mimikyu enjoys Spikes because they wear down foes like Steelix. Unlike the other 2 abusers, I plan on mentioning, Mimikyu is a physical attacker, meaning that it can deal with special walls such as Reuniclus and Milotic, both of which are worn down easily by Spikes (unless Milotic is holding Heavy-Duty Boots, but even then it's prone to losing it's item).


:SS/Nidoqueen:
Nidoqueen (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 232 SpA / 24 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Ice Beam

Nidoqueen is also a superb abuser of Spikes thanks to its access to Sheer Force-boosted Ice Beam, allowing it to strike most superman Pokémon super-effectively. Examples of these Pokémon include Crobat, Flygon, and Noivern.

How do I deal with them?
:SS/Crobat:
Crobat @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Defog
- Brave Bird
- U-turn
- Roost

Crobat @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Sludge Bomb
- Giga Drain
- Heat Wave

Being able to defeat Roserade with Brave Bird or even turn it into setup fodder with Nasty Plot is huge and one of the primary ways of dealing with Roserade, especially since the pivot set is often carrying Defog. However, Crobat doesn't like staying in on / defogging in front of Klefki, lest it is paralyzed via Thunder Wave.

:SS/Dhelmise:
Dhelmise @ Heavy-Duty Boots / No Item
Ability: Steelworker
EVs: 192 HP / 216 Atk / 100 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 SpA
- Poltergeist
- Power Whip
- Rapid Spin
- Synthesis

This anchor is a menace for Spikes teams, as its ability to remove hazards without triggering Defiant or Competitive is extremely annoying. Due to this, most spikes teams opt to run a Ghost-type (usually either Mimikyu, Marowak-Alola, or a Dhelmise of their own).
 

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