Gen 6 Revisiting ORAS Monotype

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Kev

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Throughout the past edition of MPL, the community has commented on the unsatisfactory state of the ORAS metagame and has a great desire for change to occur. In order to gather the opinions of the community, this thread is being posted to allow people to express their grievances with the metagame in a detailed argument. The only posts that will be accepted in this thread are serious, constructive arguments; do not post any one-liners or make claims without any backing. It should also be clarified that this thread is by no means a guarantee of action, solid backing does not necessarily mean action will be taken. The quality of the arguments is what will lead to decisions being made. The suggested changes to the metagame can involve bans and unbans of Pokemon (Mega Pokemon included), the banning of luck based items to follow the path taken by SS Monotype, and the change of the ORAS Monotype Mega philosophy to be consistent with SM. If anything outside of these limits is strongly suggested, then more consideration would be required.

While it is fine if anyone wants to simply explain all the changes they require, it would be ideal that all suggestions be presented in the form of a timeline of actions. This allows for the formulation of a proper and appropriate plan on how to improve the quality of the metagame. The spoiler tag below has an outline example of a well organized post. I have just taken arguments that were thrown around public for the sample, and they do not necessarily reflect my personal opinions.

In this post, I will go through the different changes I believe are required to fix the present state of the ORAS metagame. The order I believe these decisions should be taken in go from top to bottom.

1) Ban luck based items

Reason: ---

2) Make the Mega Pokemon philosophy the same as SM

Reason: ---

3) If the philosophy changes, unban Mega Charizard X

Reason: ---

4) Ban Deoxys-Speed

Reason: ---


Another thing I would like others to comment on is the interest of participating in a round robin style tournament during the tiering process. It would be great to get a large sample of games of the potential new metagames in order to observe and evaluate the impact of the changes. It would be better to see the people that are invested in ORAS build and compete in the fresh metagames to prevent making decisions that would be regretted the next time it is played in an official capacity. I would prefer clearing out any issues immediately, than getting to Monotype generations (or whatever old gens tournament will happen first) and everyone realizing that something has suddenly become unbearable. Of course, the issue with this is that we ideally want to go through the modifications period rapidly if there are many, in order to not drag out the process. However, the short timeframe for the changes would also make the round robin groups harder to complete as competitors would be asked to potentially build and play multiple series in a week, or 2 weeks. There is of course, also the option of doing a swiss style tournament, but I do not believe that would give an adequate sample size. There is no obligation to hold any tournament, I just personally believe that it would be an ideal, and fun way to develop the tier before reaching an acceptable status. If any does have other suggestions on how to do this, feel free to give them.

When sufficient replies have been received (ideally within 1-2 weeks), tiering actions will start being taken if any are required. Thanks to anyone constructively helping us improve ORAS Monotype !
 
1) Ban luck-based items

The luck-based items really have no place in competitive Pokemon. There's no reason someone should lose a game to a random kings rock flinch or quick claw activation. If we have them banned in gen 8 then we should ban them here too

2) Make the Mega Pokemon philosophy the same as SM

Having mega gyarados on Flying is really broken on its own, and this is the only notable change this rule would bring to the metagame. It would also open up the possibility of unbanning Charizard X, which would be a cool way to improve Fire-type teams.

3) Unban Mega Charizard X (with change #2)

A great way to improve Fire. This mon is pretty OP in gen 6 but I can't see it being too broken in this metagame. The things that beat fire offensively still beat Charizard. It is definitely very strong but the top types should each have checks for it even after a single dd and it is stuck on Fire.

4) Ban Deoxys-Speed

Unsurprisingly Deoxys-speed does exactly what you would expect it to in this metagame. It absolutely demolishes the types that it has coverage for (flying, ground, water, sometimes psychic). Deoxys has coverage moves that can allow it to 1-2 hit KO almost every pokemon on the top types right now. Its use as a check-all against certain types just isn't healthy when it already naturally has an uncontested god speed tier.

5) Ban Gyarados-mega

Even on water, I think Gyarados is incredibly OP. Its role as a bulky setup sweeper that also covers' water's hardest top-tier matchups is insane. This mon is the main reason that the top types are so untouchable right now. Bringing any type other than Water or the 4 types that can beat it reliably feels like garbage
 
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mushamu

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1) Ban luck based items

Luck based items are dumb even in ORAS Monotype with the common example of King's Rock Cloyster on screens Water. Remove them, same reason as to why we nuked them in SS for consistency.

2) Make the Mega Pokemon philosophy the same as SM

I don't believe that this is a matter of making Mega Gyarados on Flying balanced, it's the fact that this is ORAS Monotype but you have a Water/Dark Pokemon that can be used on a Flying team and a pure Steel Pokemon that can be used on a Rock team. Aligning the mega philosophy with SM would only bring more legitimacy to the metagame.

3) If the philosophy changes, unban Mega Charizard X

Fire doesn't have the correct team support like Flying to make Mega Charizard X broken. Fire as a type is really flimsy team support wise, so Mega Charizard X wouldn't be broken.

Even on water, I think Gyarados is incredibly OP. Its role as a bulky setup sweeper that also covers' water's hardest top-tier matchups is insane. This mon is the main reason that the top types are so untouchable right now. Bringing any type other than Water or the 4 types that can beat it reliably feels like garbage
I really don't think Mega Gyarados is banworthy on Water. The fact as to why it's so great on Flying is that you can bypass Flying's usual weaknesses in Rock and Ice with a Water/Dark Pokemon coupled with Flying's amazing team support. On Water, it's not used as much as other mega evolutions like Mega Sharpedo for good reason. The top tier types have good ways to deal with it and they're usually the same as the rest of the Water team.
 
A round robin tournament in the next few weeks wouldn't help anything in terms of the tiering process. Change in metas, especially old gens take a lot of time and you won't see an accurate reflection of what the meta would look like 8 months down the line in a rr tour in the next few weeks that maybe 3 people would take seriously.

I think the most obvious place to start would be to fix the mega rule, and get rid of the luck items. I'm not a fan of banning deoxys atm at all considering the mega change is a huge one and it would take time to realize the entire effect it has on the meta. I also disagree that it constricts water or invalidates poison. Poison has tools to deal with deoxys, getting rid of it isn't going to change that matchup still being very difficult. The past two tours have had psychic's winrate below 45% and both flying and water are 50%+. Water builds are still gonna be primarily built around the dark megas, which won't change how water tackles the psychic matchup. Maybe in a while if deoxys is still 'too much' it can be looked at then, but banning a pokemon with a huge change like the mega one would be a mistake.

I do think that mega charizard x should be tried out. Fire isn't a great type and giving it zard x which most types have reasonable checks and counters for wouldn't hurt. Types which are very good currently like water and ground obviously have counterplay, flying will be more forced towards mega aero builds which would be awful for fire, psychic has access to slowbro + the latis, dragon fighting fairy normal all have perfectly fine counterplay as well. With types that struggle vs fire currently, nothing is really changing except the fire team would lose out on weather, (defog) and a ground immune after evolving. While zard x is obviously strong and it's possible it would be too much, I think if there is ever a time to try it out it has to be now. Hypothetically, assuming the mega rule is changed, once something is banned after that, we'll probably never come back to looking at unbanning zard x.

tldr : rr tour pointless, try out zard x and get rid of the mega rule and luck items, hold off on any big bans if the mega rule does get changed
 
Question with everyone suggesting SM ban rules on megas in monotype I would like opinions on opening up Altaria M again in the metagame for dragon only.


I agree with pretty much the consensus of changing the banlist to get Mega Gyarados off flying, (by proxy banning Aggron from rock) and unbanning Mega X

I’m just curious if unbanning X should lead to maybe unbanning or suspecting Altaria M for dragon


Also ban stupid luck items
 

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The reason everyone is suggesting the SM Mega rule is Pokemon like Mega Gyarados a Water-/Dark-type can't be on a Flying team. Since you know you want the entire team to share a type, it being Monotype and all. I am all for this, although as for unbanning mega Pokemon like Charizard X, I would only be comfortable with it if there was a plan to look at it again later down the road. Chaitanya's idea seems like a good idea for that. Also yes please, get rid of the luck items there is no reason to keep them around.

Once the new mega rule is applied, I don't think you really need to look at Mega Gyarados, while it is incredibly powerful on screens Water teams, the main reason its so good in ORAS right now is because it provides a neutrality/resistance to Flying's weaknesses (bar Electric) making it incredibly valuable on Flying teams. I also fully support the banning of Deoxys-S immediately with the other changes. Deoxys-S still wouldn't really put in work against Fire or Rock, and types like Flying will only become weaker to it. Usually seeing how new tiering elements affect the metagame before making more decisions is the best way to approach things I understand the hesitation of doing both at once, but Deoxys-S isn't really even affected by any of the changes being made and neither are Psychic teams.
 
I don't understand all the discussion about deoxy-S. This has base 95 spa; I refuse to believe types as good and diverse such as water and flying cannot adapt to a base 95 spa mon without super effective STAB.

There are many ways for both flying and water to deal with deo-S. While some of these may not fit on every build, there are enough decent options that most teams should be able to fit at least one:

Water:
- Rain builds outspeed and KO with swift swim mons
- Slowking comes in on anything deo-S does and OHKOS with Twave (which is broken in gen6 btw), or phazes with Dtail on AV sets, only fearing +2 gigavolt havoc on non-AV sets
- Sub Mega Sharpedo can get +2 speed reliably, allowing water to win the game before deo-S does things
- Screens water can setup +2/+2 Mega Gyra, again ignoring what deo-S does
- Banded Aqua Jet from naut can KO after some rounds of LO recoil and rocks or other chip, or KOs at full in rain

Flying:
- Banded Dragonite's extremespeed KOs after some rounds of LO recoil and rocks or other chip
- Thundurus can OHKO Deo-S with priority Twave; it can't switch out without consequence as nothing on psychic wants to switch into a knock off/Tbolt/Uturn
- Honchkrow outspeeds and KOs with Sucker Punch, and can prevent it from switching out safely with Pursuit
- Screens flying can setup +2/+2 with Mega gyra (if it remains unbanned), ending the game before deo-S can do its thing
- Obnoxiously fast scarfers (Scarf Torn-T or Scarf Thundy for example) can outspeed Deo-S and Uturn/KO it

And of course there are more niche options such as Rindo/Wacan Berry mirror coat; I'm sure I'm missing more options as these are mostly off the top of my head. Let the metagame continue to adapt; see if mons like Honchkrow get more love (particularly after a potential Mgyra ban), etc.

Also, as Chait said, it doesn't make sense to make bans to help what are arguably the best two types in the metagame unless we want the metagame to be even more centralized around those types than it already is.
 

mushamu

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Question with everyone suggesting SM ban rules on megas in monotype I would like opinions on opening up Altaria M again in the metagame for dragon only.


I agree with pretty much the consensus of changing the banlist to get Mega Gyarados off flying, (by proxy banning Aggron from rock) and unbanning Mega X

I’m just curious if unbanning X should lead to maybe unbanning or suspecting Altaria M for dragon


Also ban stupid luck items
Mega Altaria would be really stupid in ORAS because of the lack of defensive counterplay that is present across multiple types in the metagame; the same reason as to why Greninja is allowed in SM but banned in ORAS. Compared to SM, you don't have Pokemon like Toxapex and Celesteela to wall it on their respective types. Tentacruel and Skarmory take their places, the former which dies to Earthquake and the latter which gets nailed by Fire Blast. Without these defensive behemoths its really easy for Mega Altaria to tear up the metagame its typing + bulk is fantastic alongside its offensive potential and allows it to easily Roost off damage and set up on multiple things.
I don't understand all the discussion about deoxy-S. This has base 95 spa; I refuse to believe types as good and diverse such as water and flying cannot adapt to a base 95 spa mon without super effective STAB.

There are many ways for both flying and water to deal with deo-S. While some of these may not fit on every build, there are enough decent options that most teams should be able to fit at least one:

Water:
- Rain builds outspeed and KO with swift swim mons
- Slowking comes in on anything deo-S does and OHKOS with Twave (which is broken in gen6 btw), or phazes with Dtail on AV sets, only fearing +2 gigavolt havoc on non-AV sets
- Sub Mega Sharpedo can get +2 speed reliably, allowing water to win the game before deo-S does things
- Screens water can setup +2/+2 Mega Gyra, again ignoring what deo-S does
- Banded Aqua Jet from naut can KO after some rounds of LO recoil and rocks or other chip, or KOs at full in rain

Flying:
- Banded Dragonite's extremespeed KOs after some rounds of LO recoil and rocks or other chip
- Thundurus can OHKO Deo-S with priority Twave; it can't switch out without consequence as nothing on psychic wants to switch into a knock off/Tbolt/Uturn
- Honchkrow outspeeds and KOs with Sucker Punch, and can prevent it from switching out safely with Pursuit
- Screens flying can setup +2/+2 with Mega gyra (if it remains unbanned), ending the game before deo-S can do its thing
- Obnoxiously fast scarfers (Scarf Torn-T or Scarf Thundy for example) can outspeed Deo-S and Uturn/KO it

And of course there are more niche options such as Rindo/Wacan Berry mirror coat; I'm sure I'm missing more options as these are mostly off the top of my head. Let the metagame continue to adapt; see if mons like Honchkrow get more love (particularly after a potential Mgyra ban), etc.

Also, as Chait said, it doesn't make sense to make bans to help what are arguably the best two types in the metagame unless we want the metagame to be even more centralized around those types than it already is.
I think you missed the main point of Cell's post that vouches for a Deoxys-S ban. He's not saying it has no counterplay at all, he's trying to say that it skews too many matchups against common shit in Psychic's favor which is overall unhealthy for the metagame and results in centralization. Alongside Deoxys-S's offensive presence Psychic also has great team support and threat density which puts a lot of pressure on types like Water and Ground even if Deoxys-S can't beat it outright by itself. Base 95 Special Attack also isn't bad when you consider boosting items like Expert Belt and jesus coverage still means its a formidable threat with 180 Speed(lol) against common types so certain types have to go out of their way to deal with it and the rest of Psychic which leaves less room to prepare for other common things. At the end of the day there are very few Pokemon that can 6-0 teams, and Deoxys-S is not one of them, but what you should be looking at is the overall effect it has on the metagame. I don't really feel strongly about whether or not Deoxys-S should be banned in ORAS because honestly I don't have enough experience but I just wanted to point out that I think you're focusing on the wrong part of the argument when Deoxys-S's presence can be looked at as unhealthy rather than downright broken.
 
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Kev

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Thank you to everyone that has contributed to the discussion so far, and we hope to see more quality contributions in the future.

After going through all the posts, Zap and I have made the following decisions:

1) Ban all luck based items (see: items banned in SS + Razor Fang)

These items aren't any more competitive in ORAS than they are in SS, so they should be removed by the same logic that was applied then.

2) Change the mega rule to reflect the SM one

It never really made much sense to us that both generations had a different rule for megas; it would be preferable to be consistent. Moreover, the ORAS rule goes against the principle of Monotype by allowing a Pokemon that does not share the type of its teammates. The main issue is that the Pokemon conserves the type change after switching out, which differentiates it from things like Conversion and Meloetta-Pirouette which are allowed. Moreover, this rule would allow a Pokemon like Mega Charizard X to be unbanned as it would only be allowed on Fire. It would also remove Mega Gyarados from Flying-type teams which could improve the quality of the metagame.

3) Unban Mega Charizard X

As the Pokemon was primarily removed because of its effectiveness on Flying-type teams, we believe it deserves the benefit of the doubt when it comes to being limited to Fire-type teams. While still an excellent Pokemon, it does not have the same menacing support it does on Flying, which could allow it to be a healthy contribution to the metagame. As Chaitanya listed out in his post, on paper there is a good variety of answers to Mega Charizard X for the different types in the metagame.

4) Wait on Deoxys-Speed

While we both agree that Deoxys-Speed is a potent sweeper that is capable of decimating specific teams with the right coverage, we do not believe its presence is oppressive to the point that it should immediately be removed. We understand the perspective of those pushing for an immediate ban, as the above changes do not explicitly interact with Deoxys-Speed. However, we believe in approaching revision of older generations with a greater degree of scrutiny; it is preferable to make major changes sequentially. We should be focusing on how the metagame will shift after a big change, as an addition or removal from a tier does not only impact the type it is on, but all the ones around it. The addition of Mega Charizard X could impact more than just Fire-type teams, and those changes may impact Deoxys-Speed's presence. Admittedly, the likeliness of this occurring is slim but still deserves consideration. Monotype removing multiple things at once was referenced in the thread, and while it is a precedent, this is reserved for blatantly unbearable and uncompetitive aspects in the early phases of a metagame. In our opinion, Deoxys-Speed does not qualify for that category.


The listed decisions are not final. These are simply an update of where we are at after seeing the feedback of the community in this thread, and of those that reached out to us in PMs. If anyone disagrees with our decisions on any of these points, or believes other points need to be addressed, they are welcome to continue the discussion. As a deadline, we are expecting to make our update around October 8th / prior to the ORAS PL draft (or at least before Week 1 goes up).
 

Kev

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The following changes will officially be made to ORAS Monotype, per the above discussion:

1) Ban: King's Rock, Bright Powder, Lax Incense, Quick Claw, Razor Fang and Focus Band
2) Change the Mega Evolution rule to reflect that of SM Monotype, i.e the regular form and the Mega Evolution must share the type with the rest of the team. For example, Mega Gyarados will only be allowed on Water-type teams, and Mega Aggron will only be allowed on Steel teams.
3) Mega Charizard-X will be unbanned. As per the above rule, it would only be allowed on Fire-Type teams.

Tagging Kris to implement

Deoxys-Speed will stay unbanned as no one made an effort to convince otherwise following the last post. The thread will remain open if major concerns are raised about its healthiness, or that of Mega Charizard-X in the following weeks. There will be two good opportunities to observe them in action with ORAS PL and Monotype Seeded.
 
apparently i gotta give reasons so

uhh somehow doesnt seem to come up much but this thing breaks through everything w sd, mirrors come down to sneak or not, almost always seems to eat a hit too. very solid defensive stats and 165 attack w 120bp move + prio which is super effective vs the consensus best team is super nuts, centralizing in it's own right,

personally not convinced by deoxys but ppl want it gone and it doesnt hurt anything if it goes, faster than most scarfs, incredible coverage vs some of the better types in the tier, which puts psychic at a way too clear #1

fast, strong, water too centralizing

super strong, oras doesnt have stuff that really comes into this mon, access to rp gives it diff roles ground would be p crazy theoretically post other bans.

trapping busted but this was sorta in jest

not on big on this as the first 4, esp cause i think keldeo is a way bigger issue, and would wait on this personally but I can def see the issues w it and it's been brought up before. can be dumb w screens + mold breaker. I wouldnt miss it for sure

Sorry I'm old and i cant write super long detailed posts anymore but ya. Anyway I think Deoxys, lando i, keldeo, mega gallade should all go at once. Banning one mon at a time won't fix this tier for at least 5 years.

Water and psy are horrifically overused and are far and away the best types with flying sticking around close. WC usage water:10 psy:9 (they were the 2 most). MWP usage psy 16, water 10 (next closest type had 4 uses). mpl usage - water 21, psy 16, next closest 13 and then 7. Would leave gyara for a while but it could go too and I doubt it'd be missed. But yeah I think it's a pretty common opinion that change is needed and imo those 4 going RN would help the most. We can always resuspect them into the tier or whatever if the meta's in a decent place and there's discussion and all that but yeah something before mpl please.

pls post if u have any opinion on the matter ty.
 
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After 6 weeks of BLT and before it is not too late until MPL arrives, I'd like to give my own thoughts and suggestions for the tier improvement and reiterating what some players above have already said.

Ban

Basically it is one of the strongest wallbreakers in the tier with a 110 base speed (which's high for a relatively slower metagame in comparison to SM/SS) and gets access to a plethora of utility moves (Thunder Wave, which is 100% accurate and quad speed drop in this gen; Will-o-Wisp; Encore; Toxic; Knock Off; etc are just a few examples) that punish switchins or enable its setup, making it near impossible to come against prior to move reveal and even certain options that are intended to wall it (like Slowbro) can struggle on doing so. Besides its often backed up by insane support on Psychic which can include hazard stacking and dual screening as a few examples thus making it overwhelming for almost any team to handle a well played M-Gallade. Finally, it runs different sets that have different ways of counterplay (SD / Bulk Up) which further increases the level of difficulty to deal with this Pokemon.


Ban

One of the most powerful wallbreakers in the tier with near to no counterplay thanks to Gravity. It is able to use it rather comfortably thanks to the amount of stuff it forces out, which makes it comparable to thousand arrows zygarde spam that used to happen before it got banned. It can even run CM, Rock Polish, Knock Off and Substitute, making it a menacing Pokemon to deal with both on Ground and Flying.


Wait further / Only one of them

Kind of an issue right now is the offensive core since SubCM Keldeo is the most common variant right now and it destroys certain types (like Dark) singlehandedly. It can also be annoying for other stuff like Steel and Normal but not impossible overall. However, Mega-Gyarados can basically take down any Pokemon that theoretically counters Keldeo (which are limited per type to begin w/) and this all adds up with the other defensive / utility Pokemon that Water has. Overall Water has a pretty good core with many possibilities (rain / stall / balance) which makes uncertain to tell what exactly is a broken element there but either way it is best not to outright ban too many stuff at once. I do not care that much if either goes anyway but if one goes the other should stay since its basically overreacting to ban both.

TLDR: Centralizing, strong core; should wait how meta adapts to the prior ban suggestions if they happen, only one should go and idk what it is.


Do not ban

Realistically speaking neither deoxys-s and magnezone (magnet pull) are that overwhelming IMO. Deo-S kinda gives the wrong impression bc of the matchup fishing potential it has with boltbeam + np giving psy a big edge over dragon / water / ground / flying but all of them have counterplay for it anyways: Dragon has scarf sball latios + dnite (extremespeed), Flying has dnite (extremespeed) + prankster twave/tailwind thundy/tornadus, Ground has Excadrill / Ice Shard Mamo and Water can run rain + options like Lanturn which are not outright KO'ed and cripple it back w/ twave. Overall its easier to scout which set is as game progress bc dual hazard ain't that common but i get screens support can be annoying with this mon. Also offensive variants are kinda deadweight in other mus so thats worth pointing as well

Magnezone/trapping affects mostly steel and flying teams (both of which can still win vs elec or steel teams) and dugtrio isn't anywhere broken on Ground so not much to say here other than that. Both are manageable, not centralizing and not close to being broken so no reason to ban them really


Overall: Maybe ban the first 2 mons before BLT playoffs so players can test the new meta from there, not sure if there will be enough data to tell if its worth to ban keldeo / m-gyara / smth else. I think this should make ORAS better than what it is now and gives the MPL players some data to start from rather than risking themselves / game quality in a "new meta" for the first few weeks. Most of it is based on replays i've watched from team tours and my experience in BLTs so hopefully those suggestions make sense.
 

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some thoughts:

at this point in time, there is little to no reason to use types not named psychic and water. oras usage in the past few team tours are indicative of this, and feeling as if bringing a type that isn't in the top 3 is boarderline match up fishing, something has be done.

should be banned now:
Gallade-Mega - probably one of if not the most centralizing mon right now. once it megas its faster than almost the entire tier barring scarfers along with respectable defensive stats makes it not easy to revenge kill, and its coverage makes it super annoying for most types to deal with in the builder. banning gallade would not only make psychic not absurdly stupid, but it would vastly improve the usability of other types. big positive for the tier, good starting point

Keldeo - also one of the more centralizing mons in the tier, clicking scald with this thing is way more rewarding in this gen than it should be as a 30% chance to burn in this gen goes a long way. what separates it from the other offensive waters in this tier is that it resists rocks making it a bit harder to wear down compared to its competition (see starmie and volcanion for instance), its bulk + speed combination, water + fighting coverage being surprisingly solid, and its ability to run multiple sets, making it a headache both in the builder and in game

a bit unsure:

Landorus-I - landoi to me is definitely not in the level of gallade and keldeo and its not something id ban right now simply because i don't really think its that big of a threat right now but i can get behind the reasoning of it being clearly stupid if gallade and keldeo go. i don't particularly mind waiting to see how it works out once the first 2 mons go but not a whole lot is lost if it gets banned with them.

should definitely stay (for now):

Deoxys-Speed - i was once on the ban deos wave but im not really a fan of banning two mons on a meta defining type cause that feels too drastic of a change. as of right now i do think mega gallade is a bigger problem than deos anyway, and types do have some reasonable counterplay to this thing. could stay for now and see what happens from here

Gyarados-Mega - similar to deos i don't really want to ban 2 mons on water right now and i don't really think gyara is as problematic as keldeo anyway, and its maybe not even problematic at all. reg gyara being weak to rocks is pretty big for me and its not as immediate of a threat as the other mons mentioned since most of the work its putting in requires a dragon dance beforehand

summary:
mega gallade and keldeo have to go
can't really go wrong with keeping or banning landoi
deos and mega gyara should stay for now

would love to hear what everyone else has to say about this!
 
Kev and I have both decided against implementing drastic changes to an old metagame. We are on the same page regarding tiering old gens; that they should be dealt with carefully and with a greater amount of scrutiny. There has not been enough traction on this, and to be honest, the lackluster posts are not convincing us to change oras mono by not just banning one, but multiple mons. Banning Keldeo and Mega-Gallade is not something to be decided on a whim. Removing these mons would result in an entirely different metagame. A better place to start would be a controlled environment rather than our most important tour. We can, however, use this tournament to focus on the impact of the relevant mons and reassess and see if action is needed to be taken.

That being said, we understand the need for change, so we decided to revisit what has been discussed before, and that is the removal of Deo-S. We both had been on the fence about Deo-S in the past, and we think that with its speed and versatility, it should be banned. With its speed, psychic can fore-go a scarfer altogether, and with its diverse movepool allowing it to check a lot of teams, it can be overwhelming. Although a small change, it's impact can affect other types like fighting and poison.

Tagging Kris to implement a ban on Deoxys-Speed for ORAS Monotype.
 
Would we be able to bring in Mega Gallade/Keldeo bans immediately after MPL, even though I still think more bans should be considered, starting here should open up the tier to a couple more types like Normal, Steel, Dark, and Ground. Even though I still try and prep for as many imaginary types as I can before my battles, the reality of the situation for MPL is you would most likely be ready if you only prepare for psy, flying, and water. The Keld ban is necessary for allowing steel and dark to be competitive, with subcm being incredibly difficult to counterplay and its specs set making it one of the strongest wallbreakers in the tier. As Attribute brought up earlier Mega Gallade on Psy is really just dumb. It's team support from psy means it can be provided screens or healing wish support, 1 SD is all it needs in many situations to clean, and its ability to force switches alongside it having solid special bulk means it often can get away with very little cost. These 2 bans would not only make many mid-tier types more useable, and make the "S" tier ground actually have usage in MPL, but should make F tier types such as Rock and Ice have at least some more reliable counterplay for 2 of the most meta defining types in the tier. Regardless of how I see it this should not only make the types a bit more balanced, but also more incentive to use more than 3 types in competitive tours such as MPL.
 

roxie

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I think Mega Gallade should definitely go and Keldeo should go as well, but I don't feel like this MPL showcased Keldeo's place in the tier over Mega Gallade. Mega Gallade has a tremendous impact on pretty much every type except Fairy (to a lesser degree). I think its access to Ice Punch really secures it as it heavily threatens Garchomp and Landorus-T. Flying is pretty much forced to run Brave Bird over Iron Head on Skarmory as a CONSISTENT check to "Mega Gallade" unlike Hurricane Tornadus-T which can be counterproductive with Mega-Charizard-Y teams. Obviously banning two Fighting-types on paper would strengthen the types weak to it but Keldeo. Like the majority of the ORAS games showcases Water vs something that doesn't struggle much vs Keldeo like Electric / Psychic / Dragon / Water (mirror) and a Flying replay but I don't think that should be the determining factor.

Tldr: Banning Mega Gallade is a step in the right direction as this MPL directly showcases its presence on the tier
 
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twinkay

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In my opinion, Mega Gallade is pretty clearly broken in ORAS and if there is to be some tiering action to help improve this gen, banning Mega Gallade should be at the top of the list of things to do. I clearly have an opinion but I'm going to try to be as objective as possible, because I understand the hesitation in banning something so prominent in an old metagame.

Anyone who has interacted with ORAS Monotype at a competitive level knows that Psychic is one of the strongest, if not the strongest, type, and it's been that way for quite some time. The type has two main forms of competition for the top spot: Water and Flying. Flying was recently nerfed with the changing of the mega rule, meaning that one of its strongest assets, Mega Gyarados, was no longer usable on the type. Still, the type has bounced back solidly, and has a pretty strong matchup into the other two. Water is in a similar boat. Mega Gyarados (and Mega Sharpedo, although it's less common now) basically always give the type a win condition against Psychic, although no modern Psychic will outright lose to them. All of these types have solid neutral matchups all around.

Following the Mega Gyarados ban, Psychic was clearly the best type. In MWP IV, the first tournament post-mega rule change, Psychic was brought in 58% of games (14/24), with 33% (16/48) usage overall, and a 62.5% win rate, far eclipsing any other type that was used in the tournament. The only type that came close in usage after was Water, being brought in 42% (10/24) of games, 21% overall (10/48) and a 40% win rate. Every other type was used 4 times or less. In the Monotype Invitational, Psychic was used in 49% of games (21/43) games, with a 62% (13/21) winrate.

It'd be misrepresentative to say that Psychic's success is entirely caused by Mega Gallade. In the Psychic games that were played in MWP, Gallade was used in 7/16 of them, with a 57% winrate in the games that were played. There are good Psychic teams that don't use Mega Gallade at all, and that can be attributed to Psychic's flexibility. But Mega Gallade has played a large role in making Psychic so dominant, and that's been reflected in its high usage so far this MPL as well.

Psychic's winrate this MPL hasn't been as high as it has in the previous two tours (I think it's at 46% (6/13) right now) but I wouldn't say that the ORAS monotype metagame is healthy. It is almost entirely dominated by 4 types (the aforementioned + Electric) with some fringe things like Fighting and Steel popping about that can occasionally matchup well against them.

Psychic would be pretty fair to play against if it wasn't for Mega Gallade, which is the most centralizing Pokemon to play against in the metagame. Mega Gallade almost single-handedly invalidates types like Normal, Dark, Ghost, and many Steel, Water, Flying, and opposing Psychic builds because of its great coverage and perfect tools to facilitate its sweep. It has amazing bulk, particularly special bulk, which allows it to get off Swords Dance in almost every game if it chooses to, and it has a great speed tier, outspeeding the vast majority of the unboosted metagame. For what it doesn't outspeed it has priority, and a +2 Shadow Sneak is sneakily good at cleaning teams late game if it chooses.

And let's talk about Mega Gallade's coverage. I've seen people say that "Mega Gallade sweeping Psychic teams with Knock Off and Sneak is the same as Mega Scizor sweeping Ice teams with Bullet Punch" which is misguided for two reasons. The argument that Mega Scizor is not broken in SM cause it sweeps Ice teams is predicated on the fact that any strong Steel-type sweeper can sweep Ice teams in the exact same way, which is true. This is not true for Mega Gallade. If we take Psychic for example, there is no Pokemon that can sweep Psychic as easily or effectively as Mega Gallade. The only real argument you could make is Mega Gyarados, but even that has to worry about being revenge killed by Psychic's scarfers like Victini and Latias (and yes, I know we can get into the fine details of whether Mega Gyarados can succcesfully get behind a Substitute, which happens occasionally but is far from guaranteed) and things like Colbur Celebi and Colbur Grass Knot Celebi. Mega Gallade can bypass all of those, with some risk of Scald burns / Foul Play from Slowbro. (Mega Gallade winning of avoiding a Scald burn, which it has 70% chance of doing once and ~50% chance of doing twice (49%) is another common deciding factor of Psychic vs Psychic games. The same can be said of it avoiding getting full paralyzed if it's against a Thunder Wave Slowbro or it decided to set up on a Jirachi). The second reason is that Mega Gallade doesn't give up anything by running Knock / Sneak. It retains its STAB of choice, usually Drain Punch or Close Combat, and Knock Off and Shadow Sneak are both good utility moves AND good coverage, which means it's not like Mega Gallade is sacrifing everything to be a win condition against Psychic; in fact, it's can run this set and still pose a major threat in most other matchups. I think this really separates it from Mega Gyarados too, which doesn't possess nearly the same level as overall utiltiy that Gallade provides.

Mega Gallade can run other coverage moves too, like Ice Punch / Thunder Punch for Flying (and, to an, extent, Dark), Zen Headbutt as a STAB option to surprise Poison-types, and even Leaf Blade for Water and Ground. Substitute has seen some usage to surprise set-up against a predicted Thunder Wave or Toxic, and even Bulk Up is an option to alleviate some of its problems with checking physical attackers. While these options aren't seen on its most standard set (and in my opinion, it's best and most broken set), they thwart the already limited methods of dealing with standard Gallade, which adds to its versatility and sweeping potential.

I've never understood the worries about creating a "massive change" to an old metagame tbh, especially if there is a lot of support for it. I think a ban of Mega Gallade would be pretty impactful, but at the end of the day if a mon is broken and unhealthy then it's broken and unhealthy, and addressing it is better than just doing nothing at all, even if the metagame that results from the change is unknown. And I don't think there is any real downside to be had for banning Mega Gallade either, apart from maybe making Fighting less viable (which eh, is a pretty anti-Monotype philosphy thing to care about). I understand why people want to do a wave of bans (to proactively ban things that could be broken in a new metagame) but in my opinion things like Keldeo and Landorus haven't proven themselves to be as broken as Mega Gallade. I could be convinced otherwise, but I just haven't seen nearly the same impact.

Below are a few (11) Mega Gallade replays from the past year up until now that I think show its brokenness well. There are plenty more out there. I'm not really going to do a whole lot of analysis on them because a lot of them are "Mega Gallade sets up and wins" or "Mega Gallade claims a kill every time it comes in". However, if people want me to, I can certainly add some.

Some Mega Gallade replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6monotype-598919 (Psychic vs Dark, Invitational)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6monotype-594105 (Psychic vs Fire, Invitational)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6monotype-601846 (Psychic vs Water, Invitational)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6monotype-598228 (Psychic vs Normal, MWP IV)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6monotype-1379491556 (Psychic vs Normal, MPL VII)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6monotype-572305 (Psychic vs Steel, MPL VII)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen6monotype-571401 (Psychic vs Psychic, MPL VII)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6monotype-1378546066-qfwrbc8c3wnkgn2ycgap7z1xi89ku33pw (Fighting vs Electric, MPL VII)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6monotype-1603967432 (Psychic vs Psychic, MPL VIII)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6monotype-1613865690-7m3hhweg14zd5ggkpumwrbuto42krpopw (Psychic vs Psychic, MPL VIII)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6monotype-1506400679 (Psychic vs Psychic, Mono Gens)
 
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