Return'd

After trying to get into your meta a little just to try it out, I have to say, you are wrong, the people complaining about priority however, are 100% right. You give this meta the premise of making weak moves viable to give some pokemon reliable stabs. Great. And then you overcentralize the meta to a ridiculous degree by allowing priority moves to be given the Return treatment. That's absurd. There is a reason Priority moves are weak. They trade power for the broken game mechanic that is priority.

Now frankly the whole tier is MESSED up. It's Priority Spam EVERYWHERE. Literally no matter what. The whole revolves around priority. Banning Pinsir hardly does anything for this tier, because people will complain eventually about the next broken priority user that takes his place at the top. I bet Tough Claw Mega metagross Bullet Punch will be next. Hardly even comes close to addressing the real issue. PRIORITY.
 

drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
After trying to get into your meta a little just to try it out, I have to say, you are wrong, the people complaining about priority however, are 100% right. You give this meta the premise of making weak moves viable to give some pokemon reliable stabs. Great. And then you overcentralize the meta to a ridiculous degree by allowing priority moves to be given the Return treatment. That's absurd. There is a reason Priority moves are weak. They trade power for the broken game mechanic that is priority.

Now frankly the whole tier is MESSED up. It's Priority Spam EVERYWHERE. Literally no matter what. The whole revolves around priority. Banning Pinsir hardly does anything for this tier, because people will complain eventually about the next broken priority user that takes his place at the top. I bet Tough Claw Mega metagross Bullet Punch will be next. Hardly even comes close to addressing the real issue. PRIORITY.
There's a reason move equality didn't power up priority moves
Guys, it's not that I disagree, but The Immortal did say to drop it, so we probably should.

So this isn't a one liner I've been using Return'd Luster Purge Latios as my defroger to some success, but I think the set could be better.

def has nick (Latios) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Luster Purge
- Draco Meteor
- Defog
- Roost


thoughts? I don't really have room for Calm Mind on the set I think, or I would use Stored Power. Why Latios? He switches into Zapdos and Rotom and such, although Volt Switch into a Pursuit Trapper gives me problems.

Bulldoze: ive only seen Ferrothorn run this. So if you know any other mons that are running this usefully let me know.
EDIT:
I ran into a Nidoking using Bulldoze the other day. It was pretty cool, you know, being able to run Sheer Force boosted STABs off it's higher attack stat, and also getting priority in Sucker Punch.

And Hot dog pizza yeah the popularity of Tyranitar is the main reason why I'm not over the moon about the set. I usually try to double switch on the obvious ttar switch in, or just avoid having Latios in when they have a Tyranitar.
 
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There's a reason move equality didn't power up priority moves
There's a reason return'd and move equality exist as different metas.

The Ruins of Alpha that seems like a cool set, but isn't it a huge liability against all the tyranitars running around? I haven't tried it, but I think even reflect type would be a risk against scarftar unless you predict the switch. Defoggers/spinners that have worked for me:

Mega Scizor. Slow U-turn is amazing and bullet punch gives offensive presence.

Tentacruel:.boosted acid spray really messes things up and liquid ooze actually pairs nicely with quagsire, who is frequently the target of boosted giga drains.

Excadrille:. Sand sweeper with rapid spin. Resists most priority. Pairs great with ttar and usually just wins once azu is dead.

Donphan: boosted ice shard gives it amazing coverage. It can spin and lay rocks and sturdy is great to survive a priority if you really need a set/spin. Usually go rocky helmet. Also pretty fat
 
E4 Flint

I'll start of by listing moves that I've seen that you have crossed out since I've played a lot more games than you.

Acrobatics, Ancient Power, Knock Off, Pursuit
Sucker Punch
Scald
Power Up Punch
Bulldoze
Draining Kiss
Ill start by listing the moves that are actually useful, distribution of how they are used, and whether it matters if you get the boost or not.

Acientpower: Heatran being the main user of this move. Great for countering Talonflame. Diance used to run this move until people realized it is not good in this current metagame. Acientpower should been used more but sadly no reason to run it outside of Heatran

Acrobatics-we all know that Talonflame is the main abuser. Ran into a tornadus once

Knock off: crawdaunt and bisharp. You bet your ass they appreciate the boost. As well as other knock off users. Crawdaunt is one of the scariest mons because it can kill with aqua jet or overkill with knock off.

Pursuit: Ttar and Bisharp being the only abusers of this move. Definitely metagame defining. Everyone else who learns pursuit has much much better options for their return'd slot.

Sucker punch: it seemed cool at first but then you realize the boost doesn't make that much of a difference unless you get STAB for it. The only pokemon who learns sucker punch that is decent in this meta is bisharp and it appreciates the knock off/pursuit boost more. After the metagame settled i have yet to see a GOOD sucker punch user. You can say things like cacturne appreciates the boost, but... you're use cacturne

Scald: the only real abuser is keldeo who is ok in this meta. All the other bulky waters still will just use this for coverage still but it's not something to gush over. They all just get a slight boost fishing for burns.

Power-up Punch: This was a move that was supposed to be cool. Until people realized that they would rather take the boosted priority anyday. Metagross was supposed to use this as amazing coverage but bullet punch turned out better. When i first started i tried out PuP lopunny that didn't last very long. In theory should be a great move and what this Metagame should be about


Bulldoze: ive only seen Ferrothorn run this. So if you know any other mons that are running this usefully let me know.

Draining kiss: yes this is a great move in this Metagame. Klefki, M-Audino and sylveon as well as other random pokemon that can use this for coverage. This is what the metagame should be about same with Power up Punch.


And from that list in terms of usuability in this current metagame only about 4 of the 9 moves are good. Even if there is a debate about some of the moves that is still such a small list with not much diversit compared to the OPs list
 
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If anything Mega Pinsir is over-centralising because it's insanely broken. Like sure, it's not overwhelming every team when every team carries Zapdos, Ditto, Doublade on their squad with everything else having coverage for it. Nobody has noticed the complete and utter lack of anything even slightly similar to a glass cannon? It's essentially -Atespeed on steroids it just doesn't seem as broken because it's centralised the pokemon around Rock, Steel and Electric types.

I'm sure Mega Rayquaza wouldn't be as broken if every team carried 3 counters.
Mega Rayquaza doesn't have three counters to choose from- he'll, it doesn't even have any GSIs bar Lugia, who dies after rocks and can't do anything but phase it out. Now, you can obviously be banworthy without being as good as MRay, but this kind of sentiment isn't accurate- heck, even with every team in ag carrying 3 checks it's still the best s rank.

This being said, part of the reason I don't find it broken is that I carry lots of checks- but none of them had Pinsir's in mind. My team is entirely unchanged by the removal of Pinsir, and I'm still in 1st place (also 42nd).
When I first heard of this meta I thought it was a cool idea. It was kinda like a "super technician" giving underused moves with unique and cool side effects a chance e.g. fell stinger, whirlpool,brine etc. And, while I can't presume to know what the intent behind making this meta was, looking at the op here:

I'm at least getting the same kind of vibe of what this metagame in spirit was supposed to be.

Having played played around 30 games now, around half and half on the suspect ladder and normal ladder, (super experienced amirite), I am now gonna do an experiment; I'm gonna pick the moves from that list (just that list, which is not even close to being conclusive on the total moves that can be used in this meta) that I have seen so far in those 30 games:

As probably expected, the overwhelming majority of moves I've seen are priority and volt switch/charge beam on the odd Zapdos/rotomwash, which are mostly used to stop the said priority mons. This meta has turned into a "do you have a priority move or not" question rather than "do you have a cool underpowered move that can now use the buff". This has happened whether or not Pinsir was banned. I am still running into the same checks e.g. ttar, rotomW, Zapdos etc. for talonflame which has taken Pinsir's place, and they still get overwhelmed. And the type of gameplay is also still the same; matchup based priority HO. Now, I am not one to hate on that (#banstall4lyfe) and I do find some amount of fun in that, but I think that if you want to turn the metagame more into "do you have a cool move that you normally can't take advantage of", which is way more interesting in concept than another meta where priority dominates, then I propose maybe thinking about having another measure:
Make Priority moves unaffected by Return'd.​

There is quite clearly precedent for this, since multihit and other moves are disallowed, and I'm sure TI would be able to whip this up in a second. I think this would be a better step overall especially when you consider the team I have been using. I am running 6 mons all with different priority moves of various types, all as strong as I can make them, so that they can counter each other's counters. Where I had PinsirMega before, now I simply have Metagross Mega. Now you can level several arguments against me, for example my sample size is too small, or I am simply not a good player meaning I am only in low ladder and have not seen what the high ladder can produce, but I think it's telling that a team I made as a joke to show Adrian how strong priority is, has gone 28-2 and my two losses have only been because I overpredicted leading to a loss in a mon, further underscoring how matchup based and unforgiving in terms of priority this meta is. The checks for Pinsir Mega still exist and are still being beaten handily by "lesser" powered mons which are just as problematic such as Talonflame, Azumarill/Crawdaunt and more. Since there is only a nominal difference in the state of the meta implying a deeper problem therein, I'm gonna go with removing priority moves and keeping Pinsir.
Just as a reference, my team (currently #1) has only three priority users, as does The Official Glyx 's (#2), Highlord (#4) runs 4, and my other teams (peak #3 and peak #21) have 3 and 4 users. You don't need that much priority to succeed, and this isn't even much more than OU. For reference, here are some of the offense teams from team showcase, and how much priority they run.

Now, there's obviously more priority, but saying that the entirety of the metagame is priority is really doing it a disservice.
There's a reason move equality didn't power up priority moves
Because they (akuemoy+Martin.) didn't want to test it? They might not be wrong, but Return'd has had many more plays.
 

AquaticPanic

Intentional Femboy Penguin
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributor
Community Leader
After doing a bit of testing I found out how op moves that double in power after taking damage are because there is no cap in BP.
And with the priority spam that is going on you are almost always gonna hit last
 
no problem, always happy to help :d

Current Discussion Points:

Klefki (Draining Kiss) --> B+? Draining Kiss is nice and all, but most priority still does very hefty damage versus it.
Zangoose (Feint) --> B/B-? Feint is not as powerful as Pinsir's, and really doesn't have the greatest offensive typing.
Diggersby (Quick Attack) --> ? Where to Rank?
Ditto (Transform) --> ? Do we rank this here, or lower?
Mega Diancie (Ancient Power) --> C+ Is Diancie that good, even though Bullet Punch and Aqua Jet easily OHKO it?
Mega Medicham (Fake Out/Feint/Bullet Punch) --> ? Mega-Medicham is powerful, but is this a waste of a mega slot?
Rotom-H (Volt Switch) --> C? Rotom-H has a niche over Rotom-W as it is Will-O-Wisp proof and has fire coverage to beat steels, but is it really worth being weak to Stealth Rocks and extra weaknesses? I don't think so.
Staraptor (Quick Attack) --> B? Banded Staraptor with Quick Attack is very powerful (first hand experience), and Intimidate is a very nice ability to have. Maybe a bit weak defensively, however.
Dragonite(Extreme Speed/Aerial Ace) --> C+/B-? Dragonite does not seem too bad (resistant to Aqua Jet), is quite bulky, and has a +2 priority in espeed and a flying stab (finally). Maybe a little bit higher?
Latios (Hidden Power Fire/Luster Purge) --> C- Latios is powerful, but is it 1. worth using over Latias and 2. can it take any priority?
Bisharp (Knock Off/Pursuit/Sucker Punch) --> C/C+? As a pursuit trapper, I think Bisharp is actually quite nice as it has Sucker Punch plus BP resistance.
Mega Ampharos (Volt Switch) --> C-/C? Mega Amphy is resistant to BP, Aqua Jet, and Pinsir's Feint (if it comes back). It's also bulkier than Rotom-Wash.
Trapinch (Feint) --> ? Trapinch has a weird niche in being more powerful than Dugtrio, and having access to Feint. Where do we rank this monster?
 
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drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
Current Discussion Points:

Klefki (Draining Kiss) --> B+? Draining Kiss is nice and all, but most priority still does very hefty damage versus it.
Zangoose (Feint) --> B/B-? Feint is not as powerful as Pinsir's, and really doesn't have the greatest offensive typing.
Diggersby (Quick Attack) --> ? Where to Rank?
Ditto (Transform) --> ? Do we rank this here, or lower?
Mega Diancie (Ancient Power) --> C+ Is Diancie that good, even though Bullet Punch and Aqua Jet easily OHKO it?
Mega Medicham (Fake Out/Feint/Bullet Punch) --> ? Mega-Medicham is powerful, but is this a waste of a mega slot?
Rotom-H (Volt Switch) --> C? Rotom-H has a niche over Rotom-W as it is Will-O-Wisp proof and has fire coverage to beat steels, but is it really worth being weak to Stealth Rocks and extra weaknesses? I don't think so.
Staraptor (Quick Attack) --> B? Banded Staraptor with Quick Attack is very powerful (first hand experience), and Intimidate is a very nice ability to have. Maybe a bit weak defensively, however.
Dragonite(Extreme Speed/Aerial Ace) --> C+/B-? Dragonite does not seem too bad (resistant to Aqua Jet), is quite bulky, and has a +2 priority in espeed and a flying stab (finally). Maybe a little bit higher?
Latios (Hidden Power Fire/Luster Purge) --> C- Latios is powerful, but is it 1. worth using over Latias and 2. can it take any priority?
Bisharp (Knock Off/Pursuit/Sucker Punch) --> C/C+? As a pursuit trapper, I think Bisharp is actually quite nice as it has Sucker Punch plus BP resistance.
Mega Ampharos (Volt Switch) --> C-/C? Mega Amphy is resistant to BP, Aqua Jet, and Pinsir's Feint (if it comes back). It's also bulkier than Rotom-Wash.
Trapinch (Feint) --> ? Trapinch has a weird niche in being more powerful than Dugtrio, and having access to Feint. Where do we rank this monster?
Klefki resists some priority, has priority Thunder Wave, sets spikes, and is generally one of the most annoying mons in the meta... and nobody is surprised. I'd say A- is good, but I wouldn't be too unhappy with B+.

I thought Zangoose was a little high when we did this tbh. B seems fair to me, but my opinion has already been weighed. I've been using it a bit and it's pretty weak when not boosted, and too frail to boost really.

Ditto needs to be higher than it is in OU. It's not as good without Pinsir in the tier, as it was basically the only thing that really "revenged" Pinsir, in the vein of not having to tank a hit first. (Things with Fake Out get screwed by Protect)

I don't know if anyone else has been using Latios, but it has a couple things over Latias. 1) Luster Purge, which makes it difficult to switch into for anything not dark type that doesn't resist both stabs. Of course that means things like Ttar and Metagross. 2) Higher Spa. If you're not trying to set up or anything, Latios has a niche. Can it take priority? Not really lol. It can take one Azumarill Aqua Jet, and leave it in range for something else to pick it off later. Mostly I think it's valuable for it's resistances to electric and water, 2 pretty uncommon resists. Is it good? No. But I think C is fair.

Why is Trapinch on the viability rankings like seriously I can't look at that thing can we get more than one person to actually say this thing isn't complete shit?

Finally we did a terrible thing and left regular Metagross off the rankings. A-? B+? Someone who's used it speak.
I still think Nidoking deserves to be ranked. And if not take that goddamn Trapinch off, because Nido is definitely better than that.
 
Klefki resists some priority, has priority Thunder Wave, sets spikes, and is generally one of the most annoying mons in the meta... and nobody is surprised. I'd say A- is good, but I wouldn't be too unhappy with B+.

I thought Zangoose was a little high when we did this tbh. B seems fair to me, but my opinion has already been weighed. I've been using it a bit and it's pretty weak when not boosted, and too frail to boost really.

Ditto needs to be higher than it is in OU. It's not as good without Pinsir in the tier, as it was basically the only thing that really "revenged" Pinsir, in the vein of not having to tank a hit first. (Things with Fake Out get screwed by Protect)

I don't know if anyone else has been using Latios, but it has a couple things over Latias. 1) Luster Purge, which makes it difficult to switch into for anything not dark type that doesn't resist both stabs. Of course that means things like Ttar and Metagross. 2) Higher Spa. If you're not trying to set up or anything, Latios has a niche. Can it take priority? Not really lol. It can take one Azumarill Aqua Jet, and leave it in range for something else to pick it off later. Mostly I think it's valuable for it's resistances to electric and water, 2 pretty uncommon resists. Is it good? No. But I think C is fair.

Why is Trapinch on the viability rankings like seriously I can't look at that thing can we get more than one person to actually say this thing isn't complete shit?

Finally we did a terrible thing and left regular Metagross off the rankings. A-? B+? Someone who's used it speak.
I still think Nidoking deserves to be ranked. And if not take that goddamn Trapinch off, because Nido is definitely better than that.
You ask, well why is Trapinch on the viability rankings?

Let me start with this. I was not the one who made Trapinch. I played this person in the finals of a Return'd OM Room Tour, and he had Trapinch (it was a mod I forgot who tho). He used sash, along with Earthquake and Feint. Now I do not understand why you think this is worse than Dugtrio. 1. Trapinch is more powerful and 2, it has Feint which actually can be used quite efficently to pick off weakened mons like Azumarill.

Also Quantum Tesseract, Regular Metagross defintely needs to be on the rankings. Yes, its a bit worse than Mega Metagross, but Banded BP does more damage, and you also let something else be mega. A- is pretty good for now.

Nidoking? I guess so, but it really can't live any priority. I'm not sure where to rank it.
 
Time's up! Here are the results of the suspect test:

Ban - 14 votes
Do not ban - 9 votes

Having reached the 60% majority, Mega Pinsir is banned from Return'd!

Thanks everyone that participated!

Ango
Betathunder
DarkFlames64
DontStealMyPenguin
eat pray balk
Grains of Salt
Hart12
IronicDouble (‽)
Pure Beas
suapah
The Immortal
The Official Glyx
thesecondbest
Zephyr Dragon Lord

E4 Flint
Highlord
jamashawalker
Pepeduce
Quantum Tesseract
Quicksilverz
Rise of Darkrai
Schpoonman
Skelos
 
Hehe TI with that clutch swing vote.

Perhaps not the desired outcome by a few, but I think a pinsir ban will greatly open up team building. (Like, wow +2 aerielate feint was restrictive.)

We'll probably see a serious drop in the use of rock types and rotoms, though Zapdos will likely see continued use as a general check to steels. Mega lopunny seems super dangerous, since it might have the option of going QA over fakeout now to basically hold the title of fastest priority after all the feint users. Tyranitar doesn't have as much of a reason to exist and bisharp will probably do a better job as a pursuit trapper, since it gets sucker punch and has a nice defensive typing. Hopefully this can open up the gates for some more vacuum wave users (special priority ftw) , who were previously revenges for free by pinsir.

All in all, I am very pleased with the ban and look forward to seeing a resurgence in stall ;)

P.S. , TI, don't cave to these bogus cries for unboosted priority.

Schpoonman nowhere did I suggest those players are idiots. Your words, not mine. The immortal has expressed several times now that it is here to stay. This would just be move equality +2 base power in the first slot. There are tons of other metas where priority is not central to the gameplay, however, here it is, and unless something drastic changes about the immortals philosophy, I don't see it changing. The goal is for OMs to be fun, appealing and diverse. Just because this one is balanced slightly towards priority spam, doesn't mean it can't meet those goals.
 
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Wow, nice last line, there. I mean, it's not like we still have Metagross and Azumarill, who boast less powerful but infinitely better defensive typings which let them switch in on at least half the tier, or more in Metagross' case because it's at worst neutral to all the boosted priority and resists most of it.

And of course, we don't still have Talonflame, whose Acrobatics is almost as powerful as Pinsir's Feint while it also carries base 126 Speed, guaranteeing it outspeeds any non-Feint/ES priority, neither of which are real problems in the metagame with Pinsir's banning (the next best user of Feint is Zangoose, and I challenge you to find a good team that has trouble with it).

I'm sorry, you're totally right that asking for even a few days of unboosted priority is totally bogus and all the players saying "This shit is broken," are idiots.
 
Alright, Pinsir is now banned. Personally, I think thats a tragedy as it doesn't change teambuilding at all, but you work with what you have. It's now unranked from the VR.

So, now, in my opinion the changes for the Metagame:
Metagross is now the uncontested best Mega Evolution. Unfortunately for everyone who wanted changed teambuilding, the list of checks and counters is virtually identical to that of Pinsir, with the difference that its now scarf ground types instead of electric types.
Mega Scizor has a fairly big buff. It now functions as the most reliable Mega Metagross answer, as well as being an offensive threat in its own right.
Talonflame is also no longer facing competition/the OHKO, so that's pretty nice too. The MPinsir answers continue to slot in, though, so thats not a big change.

As you can see, this is pretty sparce. The metagame is honestly the same as before, which to me is a sign of a failed test, but it also means that nothing too important was lost. The reasoning for this is pretty obvious, if you look- The new dominant threats are checked by pretty much exactly the same mons, Rotom-W in particular being an answer to all three of Talonflame, Metagross, and Azumaril, while things like Choice Scarf Heatran are still used to beat common threats. Talonflame in particular slides right into Pinsir's role, exchanging ~1% power and coverage for speed, roost, and U-turn.



On a different note, what do people think of Doublade to S rank? The more I use it, the more I feel it deserves it, but it's not so far and away better that I think it matches Mega Metagross. The reason's I consider it so good is its role compression and splashability- it checks Metagross, Scizor, Klefki, Skarmory, Zangoose, Lucario, and Mega Heracross while being generically bulky, splashable, and a nightmare to switch into. It's answers are also few and far between, with Pokemon such as Tyranitar being Koed by a Sacred Sword+Shadow Sneak combo, enabling Doublade to win 1v1 vs pretty much any physical threat. Thoughts?
 

drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
Alright, Pinsir is now banned. Personally, I think thats a tragedy as it doesn't change teambuilding at all, but you work with what you have. It's now unranked from the VR.

So, now, in my opinion the changes for the Metagame:
Metagross is now the uncontested best Mega Evolution. Unfortunately for everyone who wanted changed teambuilding, the list of checks and counters is virtually identical to that of Pinsir, with the difference that its now scarf ground types instead of electric types.
Mega Scizor has a fairly big buff. It now functions as the most reliable Mega Metagross answer, as well as being an offensive threat in its own right.
Talonflame is also no longer facing competition/the OHKO, so that's pretty nice too. The MPinsir answers continue to slot in, though, so thats not a big change.

As you can see, this is pretty sparce. The metagame is honestly the same as before, which to me is a sign of a failed test, but it also means that nothing too important was lost. The reasoning for this is pretty obvious, if you look- The new dominant threats are checked by pretty much exactly the same mons, Rotom-W in particular being an answer to all three of Talonflame, Metagross, and Azumaril, while things like Choice Scarf Heatran are still used to beat common threats. Talonflame in particular slides right into Pinsir's role, exchanging ~1% power and coverage for speed, roost, and U-turn.



On a different note, what do people think of Doublade to S rank? The more I use it, the more I feel it deserves it, but it's not so far and away better that I think it matches Mega Metagross. The reason's I consider it so good is its role compression and splashability- it checks Metagross, Scizor, Klefki, Skarmory, Zangoose, Lucario, and Mega Heracross while being generically bulky, splashable, and a nightmare to switch into. It's answers are also few and far between, with Pokemon such as Tyranitar being Koed by a Sacred Sword+Shadow Sneak combo, enabling Doublade to win 1v1 vs pretty much any physical threat. Thoughts?
I would 100% support Doublade to S. My check to it has been Chople Berry Tyranitar which... dies in the process but allows other priority to finish off the Doublade. Mandibuzz is probably the best answer, and who runs Mandibuzz? I've seen maybe one. I think the fact that it's one of the best Megagross checks in addition to all of its offensive potential gives it a place in S.
 
Tangrowth should move up from a C+ to a B. It checks a lot of the primarily physical metagame, and tyranitar can pick off most common pokemon that give it trouble in this meta. I think the usage % of Tyranitar and how effective tangrowth is with it means it should move up in viability ranking. Every second team right now seems to be running a Ttar-Tgrowth pair.
 
just thought I'd put this here. Been experimenting with this on my Orangmutan Alt.



Chesnaught @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Feint
- Belly Drum
- Drain Punch
- Spiky Shield

An alternate Feint user, who doesn't have the STAB, but has the more instant power required once set up to deal an actual sweep that Zangoose can't quite seem to get going. No reliable option for ghost, but pursuit trappers can be of assistance there. Spiky Shield is crucial for protecting from fake out checking and has the bonus of doing damage to break sashes and Dragonite's multiscale, making Feint more reliable. Drain Punch is for HP recovery on those slower tanks and gives a stab to use that beats steel types.

Still with Chesnaught's even slower speed than zangoose he requires the oppurtunity to strike but he can still pull it off reasonably well.
 

The Official Glyx

Banned deucer.
Well, with one Feint-spamming beetle gone, I'd personally like to suggest another

Heracross @ Heracronite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Feint
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Knock Off

Yes, it may not gain the monstrous boost from Aerilate, but it DOES have considerably better bulk, as well as alternative attacks that deal much more damage than Pinsir's Close Combat/EQ/Stone Edge. Close Combat in particular gets the stab boost that makes it capable of destroying just about anything defensively either before or after a Dance.

Unfortunately though, Heracross suffers from having either too little speed or too little bulk. Being at base 75 speed post-mega puts it at slower tiers than Rotom-W and Landorus-Therian, two threats that have become quite prominent in Return'd, which both require a considerable amount of EVs toward speed for Heracross to outspeed them, hence the 136 Spe I have in order to safely outpace most defensive Landorus-T's.
And on the bulky side, Heracross suffers from just barely getting taken out by things like Azumarill/Crawdaunt's Aqua Jet, as well as taking big damage from most other priorities. That being said, you'd wonder why I don't have Defense EVs in place of HP, and that is due to the fact that the EVs make so little of a difference in physical damage received that it wouldn't be worth taking additional damage from Volt Switch and whatever other scarce special attacks there are in Return'd just to shave off 6% or so from physical attacks.

Pretty much the only variable move for Heracross is Knock Off, which can be swapped out for Earthquake if you miss having Pinsir's moves THAT much since it has a little better chance at OHKO-ing Doublade, as well as damaging a few other things better, though I personally like the utility of removing items from defensive switchins. And I'd rather not think about using Pin Missile over Close Combat, but that's just me.

All-in-all, Heracross is pretty comparable to Pinsir, except their stat needs have been reversed, Heracross wanting speed, while Pinsir wants wanted bulk, as well as the obvious difference in things they can switch in to, due to typing, though Heracross does have the big advantages of not being weak to Volt Switch, Ice Shard, or Stealth Rock, as well as having Guts pre-Mega to check Wisp users.
 
Well, with one Feint-spamming beetle gone, I'd personally like to suggest another

Heracross @ Heracronite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Feint
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Knock Off

Yes, it may not gain the monstrous boost from Aerilate, but it DOES have considerably better bulk, as well as alternative attacks that deal much more damage than Pinsir's Close Combat/EQ/Stone Edge. Close Combat in particular gets the stab boost that makes it capable of destroying just about anything defensively either before or after a Dance.

Unfortunately though, Heracross suffers from having either too little speed or too little bulk. Being at base 75 speed post-mega puts it at slower tiers than Rotom-W and Landorus-Therian, two threats that have become quite prominent in Return'd, which both require a considerable amount of EVs toward speed for Heracross to outspeed them, hence the 136 Spe I have in order to safely outpace most defensive Landorus-T's.
And on the bulky side, Heracross suffers from just barely getting taken out by things like Azumarill/Crawdaunt's Aqua Jet, as well as taking big damage from most other priorities. That being said, you'd wonder why I don't have Defense EVs in place of HP, and that is due to the fact that the EVs make so little of a difference in physical damage received that it wouldn't be worth taking additional damage from Volt Switch and whatever other scarce special attacks there are in Return'd just to shave off 6% or so from physical attacks.

Pretty much the only variable move for Heracross is Knock Off, which can be swapped out for Earthquake if you miss having Pinsir's moves THAT much since it has a little better chance at OHKO-ing Doublade, as well as damaging a few other things better, though I personally like the utility of removing items from defensive switchins. And I'd rather not think about using Pin Missile over Close Combat, but that's just me.

All-in-all, Heracross is pretty comparable to Pinsir, except their stat needs have been reversed, Heracross wanting speed, while Pinsir wants wanted bulk, as well as the obvious difference in things they can switch in to, due to typing, though Heracross does have the big advantages of not being weak to Volt Switch, Ice Shard, or Stealth Rock, as well as having Guts pre-Mega to check Wisp users.
Wouldn't you be better off just running guts+an orb and not having to worry about outspeeding rotom-w?
 
Alright on a serious note, Gliscor at C-? Really? I mean a B- would be understandable due to the meta, but I think a C- is far too low. Especially considering the move options listed seem to have only assessed Gliscor as an offensive threat, which it is clearly outmatched heavily in this tier in that regard. No quarrels here. But Gliscor has to be one of the only decent physical walls in the tier and especially stall breakers.


Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 244 HP / 248 Def / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Sand Tomb
- Toxic
- Protect
- Substitute

Sets goal? Trap and toxic stall. 102 Earthquake with additional trap and chip damage effectsmeans Gliscor can keep up the stall pressure even if he hasn't managed to get a toxic on the opponent. Without HP ice or suitable ice coverage, this thing can reliably get chip damage and rack up turn upon term of toxic damage. If you can toxic rotom-W on the switch which is very predictable, rotom being forced to run max defense hurts it because the lack of speed means gliscor can sub+protect stall the hydro pumps out then rotom can't do anything period.
 
On a different note, what do people think of Doublade to S rank? The more I use it, the more I feel it deserves it, but it's not so far and away better that I think it matches Mega Metagross. The reason's I consider it so good is its role compression and splashability- it checks Metagross, Scizor, Klefki, Skarmory, Zangoose, Lucario, and Mega Heracross while being generically bulky, splashable, and a nightmare to switch into. It's answers are also few and far between, with Pokemon such as Tyranitar being Koed by a Sacred Sword+Shadow Sneak combo, enabling Doublade to win 1v1 vs pretty much any physical threat. Thoughts?
I also think that Doublade is more than worthy of an S-rank. Heck... it might be the best thing in the tier now. This is a predominately physical tier, and here's a mon that can both take many of those hits, is immune to most Feints, and can pack a serious punch, too. (It doesn't check all Zangoose; some of them run Knock Off for bopping Doublade)

With Mega Pinsir gone, defense doesn't really change too much besides finding Electric type replacements, but offense... really likes those Ghosts now. While it's still challenging to find some that fit in with the priority-filled meta, there could be a few potential ones that really fit in. One that strikes me as particularly nice is Gourgeist.

Gourgeist-Super @ Leftovers
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Seed Bomb
- Will-O-Wisp
- Synthesis

The main niche this has over other ghosts is having a fairly reliable recovery, considering that the only primary weather control is Tyranitar, and taking Aqua Jets to the face. It's a pretty nice check to Azumarill, and gets the jump on Doublade, at the very least. Metagross also struggles against this, as an upside. EDIT: Forgot the item. Items are important for being copy friendly...
 
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