Rethinking CAPs and CAP Updates

[Deck Knight]

This thread will be heavily moderated to ensure it stays on track.​

Based on the most recent discussion regarding CAP 6 Updates, I decided to table the idea until I could get the assessment of the community on several questions.

First, for a little history on CAP Pokemon is ASB:

In order to allow the CAP Pokemon in ASB, there were several problems. First, not all of the CAPs had anything close to resembling a pre-evolution process. As a matter of fact, the latter half of the generation 4 pre-evolutions have not been done yet at all. The most recent one finished was Breezi.

The dilemma there being, there had to be a way to fill in the gaps. So when we were starting up CAP Pokemon for Gen 4, I basically had people brainstorm up ideas, and the ideas I liked the most were implemented, along with new level-up movepools.

In Generation 5, Dream World abilities and new moves were added, and so it did not seem equitable to the CAPs if they did not receive updates like all of the traditional Pokemon. Thus, more threads were held, movepools revamped, and new moves added.

However, there was a lot of divergence in what people wanted, leading to a wide divergence in Gen 4 and Gen 5 level-up movepools. So another project was started to get them more in line and keep their level-up moves more consistent. In fact, elements of this project were never completed.

Additionally, because a lot of moves function differently in ASB than they do in-game, and because CAPs worked on limited VGM and Total Movepool space, many of the moves that have some level of use in ASB, but are not very useful in game like Vital Throw and Submission were rarely added to CAPs during their building process.

We are now entering Gen 6, and the game has developed and become more mature, with a much larger userbase. Therefore, since the CAPs were created in a democratic way I want our policy in ASB to be decided through our own form of representative leadership. Before deciding how broad this should be, I want our Council to discuss a few questions.

1. How should we handle non-canonical pre-evolutions?

This applies at this point to Privatyke, Collosshale, Nohface, Monohm, Duclohm, Protowatt, and Voodoll.

Only Privatyke and Monohm/Duclohm diverge little from their fully evolved forms. Whereas Colosshale, Nohface, Protowatt, and Voodoll are significantly different in either ability or aptitude from their fully evolved counterparts.

These will presumably be completed at some point in the future, but as each pre-vo currently has no canonical element to it, they are almost wholly invented, and several (Nohface in particular) have moves and strategies completely different from their evolved counterparts.

1a. Dream World / Hidden Abilities

These constitute a separate question on a similar premise, in that Generation 4 CAPs do not have this mechanism. Additionally, Generation 6 has added abilities or changed abilities to Pokemon that had them previously.

2. Should move updates include moves other than newly introduced moves in that generation?

Arguments can be made on both sides of this issue - for example Stunfisk picking up Water Gun in Generation 6 for the first time. At the same time, this makes each revamp a more time consuming process and much more subjective. Ultimately I want to arrive at a policy, because when a new generation hits we change our starting claims to adhere to the TMs of the new generation.

The current policy is that we revamp the CAPs of the most recent generation to have moves from all generations, except for the generation they come from, considered. This also plays into the fact that, again, ASB interpretations of moves can be significantly different from in-game counterparts.

We also update CAPs when a generation introduces new tutor moves, and do a quick update for each of the CAPs to allow them to adhere to the new prize claiming standard.

The final option (or two) is that we keep CAPs locked in their original generation with that generation's movepool, but that ultimately seems like a disservice. Or we could abolish CAP Pokemon from the game entirely.

Your assessments, please.

 

[Geodude6]

Just saying that if we remove CAPs or remove Gen V stuff from Gen IV CAPs, we will likely make many users extremely angry, myself included. The game is called CAPasb, we should include CAPs in it.


Bigger post typed up when I am at the computer and not my phone.

 

[Its_A_Random]

1. How should we handle non-canonical pre-evolutions?

This also applies to Rebble & Bolderdash, the next pre-vo's in line afaik. In my opinion, we should be simply handle them the same way we have been before, updating accordingly when that pre-vo becomes canon. Do not fix something that is not broken.

1a. Dream World / Hidden Abilities

Gen V CAP's & earlier should only have abilities that existed in Gen V & earlier, & this should apply to Hidden Abilities. The only time a Hidden Ability may be changed will be for balance issues and/or non-conceptual issues (e.g. Sheer Force Cyclohm was perceived by a fair chunk of the player-base in 2011 to be broken, & Sheer Force was not really a "neglected ability" in OU at the time, with things like Landorus-I, Conkeldurr, & Darmanitan. I do not remember the real reason for Revenankh's Hidden Ability change.)

2. Should move updates include moves other than newly introduced moves in that generation?

Does it really matter? I honestly do not care much whether something gets a new move or not (as long as they make sense from a flavour perspective), there is enough precedent to say "why not the CAP's", & this entire issue is that this is something no one will ever agree on.

User 1: "Hey we should give Water Gun to Privatyke this generation. It makes sense flavour wise, & I do not see the harm in it."
User 2: "Why should we? It seems like you want Water Gun to be given to Privatyke because rainbows!"
User 1: "Yeah but you are opposing because rainbows as well! There is enough precedent to do this. Stunfisk gets Water Gun this generation, a whole slew of pre generation VI Pokémon got Quick Guard this generation, so why not?"
User 2: "But the guys at CAP -never- included the move in Arghonaut's movepool. We should never implement it & stick to new generations only."
User 1: "Oh but Night Slash was never included by the guys at CAP in Arghonaut's movepool either, yet we put it in Arghonaut's Gen V movepool!"
User 2: "So what? You are citing one example."
*ceaseless squabbling continues here*

Basically the point is that there is enough precedent to do something like this if we needed to, but in the end, I do not really care. Not everyone is going to agree, & well yeah.

The final option (or two) is that we keep CAPs locked in their original generation with that generation's movepool, but that ultimately seems like a disservice. Or we could abolish CAP Pokemon from the game entirely.

We chose to implement CAP's. We chose to update them with each game, etc. It is better to simply continue on our current road than to change our path until further notice. We are so ingrained with CAP's in ASB that removing them or generation-locking them is simply a very bad idea. People will be pissed off for one, then we will need to devise a refund system to compensate (Because investing hundreds of counters into a Pokémon that is removed is like a giant waste of your time)... It is a massive logistical nightmare, & it will probably have catastrophic consequences. I am surprised this is even considered. Stay on the current path & do not worry about the path(s) we never took, because it is too late & there is no turning back at this point.

 

[Gerard]

1. How should we handle non-canonical pre-evolutions?
I don't see this being too important, I think the way we are doing it (use the made up stats until something official comes) is fine and it's a lot better than make them unusable until their respective process is finished

1a. Dream World / Hidden Abilities
I agree with IAR, none of the CAPs have abilities so ingrained into themselves that they cannot have a hidden ability (and even if they had as this gen has proven to use that means nothing since all of Kecleon, Plusle & Minum got secondary abilities), all mons with the exception of those with only Levitate as an ability and one vital to their own self have another ability so making sure the CAPs don't end up in a disadvantage because of that seems like the best option

2. Should move updates include moves other than newly introduced moves in that generation?
Yes, but this shouldn't be done lightly, we should aim towards moves that work for flavor and/or because the team overlooked/wasn't aware about some random moves that this mon could potentially have, in the end I think that if we make an effort to keep the moves to a reasonable standard we should be able to sort it out

The final option (or two) is that we keep CAPs locked in their original generation with that generation's movepool, but that ultimately seems like a disservice. Or we could abolish CAP Pokemon from the game entirely.
No, IMO this is one big reason to play this game, the CAPs are way too ingragined in the community, removing them would only do a disservice to it and would only serve to drive people away, if the cost of having them is to treat them as a regular pokemon, with the updates and additions all pokemon get is the price to pay so be it, the mons are not gonna be updated any time soon and until/if they are we should keep them as our own

 

[Engineer Pikachu]

2. Should move updates include moves other than newly introduced moves in that generation?

No. If we didn't give a Pokemon a Gen V move during Gen V updates, they shouldn't be able to get that move during Gen VI updates; there's a reason that move wasn't included when Gen V rolled around. If the creator of the movepool over in CAP didn't give a Pokemon a move, it's not our right or responsibility to add flavor moves that have little competitive purpose; we don't see ourselves discussing whether to give Conkeldurr Vital Throw. Just because it's a non-GF Pokemon created at Smogon doesn't mean we should be able to edit past movepools (and by past I mean moves from previous generations).

Allowing updates to include old generation moves is opening a can of worms that I doubt anyone really wants to deal with (see IAR example above). Given our tendency to go sort of overboard with these things, I'd wager that it's good for the updates as well.

 

[MK Ultra]

A tangent

I'd be interested to know if anyone would genuinely say they'd leave if CAPs were removed from the game - in my opinion they aren't that integral a part of ASB despite being significant in terms of the metagame - which can change without impacting the core experience of the game, it only takes looking at generation shifts in 'real' pokemon to know that people will keep playing if the meta changes.
A main concern of mine with CAPs (since the time of Tomohawk) has always been that by using CAPs we create an almost paradoxical situation in which we say we will be impartial about influencing their decisions while knowing that we can without repercussions and that, because most of CAP's userbase is unaware of what's significant in ASB, we can do so while flying under the radar, and anyone who says otherwise - that if ASB didn't exist the last few CAPs would be exactly the same - is, quite frankly, blind.
This leaves us with a few options:

1. We remove from ASB CAPs made after/including Tomohawk, knowing that we've influenced their creation.
2. We keep what we have now but admit we've made mistakes and talk to the CAP leadership team (much of which is shared) about cracking down harder on people who try to give a CAP an advantage in ASB that it might not 'deserve'. Obviously this has the problem of leading to newer CAPs being worse in ASB because the community fears punishment otherwise and the only solution I can see to that is that users active in ASB can't contribute to CAP but I don't think anyone wants to see something like that.

With regards to the main questions, I agree with IAR on most points, though it does seem a little odd to fix a select few pokemon in time just because they were made by Smogon. On moves, I agree that arguing over every little move is pointless but if a competitively significant move that many mons of that type get now exists, I see no reason that a CAP shouldn't be given it - perhaps we could say that each CAP can be given up to a limited number of moves to ensure that we don't argue about moves that aren't really that important.​

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

1. How should we handle non-canonical pre-evolutions?

Status quo is perfectly acceptable. Keep things as they currently stand and update as appropriate. In general I feel we should avoid overcomplicating things.

1a. Dream World / Hidden Abilities

I also agree with IAR insofar as Hidden Abilities should be kept as canonical as possible. CAPs should not receive ability changes between generations and as a whole the only time we should modify a CAP (including abilities) is for balance reasons.

2. Should move updates include moves other than newly introduced moves in that generation?

No. CAPs should only be receiving moves introduced in the current generation as appropriate. Regarding appropriate I feel we should follow the general trend of "if it makes sense, it gets it" but keeping that scope reasonably limited. That is, there must be more than just a tangential connection (hi fidgit), there must be a valid flavour justification.

The final option (or two) is that we keep CAPs locked in their original generation with that generation's movepool, but that ultimately seems like a disservice. Or we could abolish CAP Pokemon from the game entirely.

The former option shouldn't be considered, it goes against our established precedent and unnecessarily limits the CAPs.

The latter I've thought about a bit and wouldn't be opposed to removing CAPs from the game if our intention is to remove the CAP part of CAPASB from our image. I would advise against this however as our ties to CAP are essentially the only thing preventing those who hate us from going on the warpath to have ASB removed from Smogon. As much as I'd be interested in seeing ASB w/o CAPs there are too many negatives prevalent by doing so.


In short, status quo is the best option available. We have no particular reason to deviate from our present path, and thus no reason to alter our CAPs or give them moves not canonically established by CAP.

 

[Stratos]

RE: mk's tangent:

I myself have voiced concerns about this previously, especially regarding the movepool stage—you lock in like 10 votes by intentionally putting bide and heal pulse on your pokemon (see: mollux). I strongly support option 2, or hidden option 3 don't add any more caps, or hidden option 4 nix all caps (but as texas said, that is both risky outside of asb as we could get the axe and inside asb as it could piss people off)

 

[Dogfish44]

OK, from the top.

1. Let's keep this as it is - pre-vo's are generally not major changes, so keeping this the way it is prevents any problems as far as I can tell.

1a. Ditto IAR and Texas - keep them as is unless something goes horribly wrong balance wise.

2. I'm inclined to not want moves from previous generations myself - will CAP be updating the older CAPs to Gen 6? If they are, then we should just fall in line with that, if they're not or it will take a long amount of time then we can probably implement Gen6 moves until such a time that they update.

Final Option. I feel it would be an asinine move to remove CAPs from ASB, in particular due to issues with compensating those who have trained them. Reverting to their original generation is possible, but even then there's going to be problems with compensation, and it would be out of line with how we've allowed CAPs to this point.

Regarding the tangent: I'd probably leave. I'll agree that recent CAPs have had several moves sneaked on by our community - normally not competitively viable moves, but moves like Heal Pulse and Bide (Mollux...). I'm not sure if we've influenced stats that much, apart from around our stat limit values. Either way, I think we should keep the CAPs we've already got and continue adding them as they're made, but we really need to figure out some way to avoid ASB bias - I know I refuse to vote in the polls if they're anything competitive, but that really shouldn't be forced upon anyone.

I'm also inclined to agree with MK that we should limit the number of moves that can be added to an individual Pokemon so we don't end up in a week long debate about why X didn't get Y.

 

[ZhengTann]

First of all, I'm in agreement with Tex and Engi (hence the likes). In a correlated issue, I do agree that CAPs play an important part in what makes Smogon's ASB more attractive than most. Removing them would feel like doing a disservice to the community, at least to me (even though the only CAP I've ever had here is a Bolderdash). However, I think we could adhere CAP canon as rigidly as possible, following the results of their prevo workshops and staying with the majority of their finalized movepools. I mentioned "majority" there because IMHO it's okay to add new gen stuff (as long as we handle it with kid gloves), but avoid previous gen things altogether on the basis that most CAPs are pretty good as they were. Just as there will be some in-catridge Pokemon that are more viable then others in certain roles, so too, I think, there will be the same happening concerning CAPs.

 

[Geodude6]

Here is the bigger post that was promised.

Non-canonical prevos
iirc this also applies to Rebble and Bolderdash.

Ditto Texas, DF. Keep them as is unless something happens in the CAP forum.

Hidden Abilities
Again, keep as is unless CAP comes to a decision or we get another Sheer Force Cyclohm.

Move updates
I say we should be able to add past-gen moves to CAPs BUT only if it is a move that most/all Pokemon of whatever type get. There is precedent in Pyroak. Pyroak did not originally get Nature Power, but most Grass-types got it when it was released as a TM in XY.

Final option

No

Never, not in a million years, absolutely not, no way Jose, no chance Lance, nyet, negatory, mm-mm, nuh-uh, uh-uh! And of course my own personal favourite of all time, man falling off of a cliff: NNNOOOOOOOOOoooooooo.......

Yeah, like Texas/Pwne said, removing CAPs would be nothing but a disservice to the community and would have nothing but negative effects. Like Texas said, our ties to CAP are basically the only thing that prevents those that hate us from going on the warpath to get us removed from Smogon. It would also have negative effects inside ASB too, as it would be a nightmare to figure out a compensation system for those that have raised them, and would likely piss a lot of people off. Frankly, I am appalled that this was even considered.

MK's tangent
I would most likely leave. I talked to Chinchou, and she feels the same way. Part of the appeal of our ASB as opposed to other leagues is our fakemons. I have no doubt that if CAPs were removed from ASB, we would lose a significant portion of our userbase.

 

[Deck Knight]

Just a few notes:

On abolishing non-canonical past Gen moves: This does have some effect on CAPs, specifically removing Psychic and Poison Jab from Revenankh (added as 5th Gen TMs, were not accessible 4th Gen TMs); Air Slash and Razor Wind from Breezi line; Dig from Fidgit; Night Slash and Constrict from Arghonaut; Metal Burst from Nohface line; Imprison from Kitsunoh; Weather Ball from Monohm line; Bubble Beam from Colosshale line; Tackle, Detect, and Zap Cannon from Protowatt line; Psycho Cut from Voodoll line; Scratch on Scratchet line.

A few other moves might qualify, like Giga Drain on Syclant which would have been first available as a 5th Gen Tutor move, and Nature Power on Pyroak as this is the first time NP is a TM, but the moves in the above list are the ones directly attributable to ASB additions to Level-Up, Egg, and TM moves.

As far as influencing CAP:

Everyone here is a member of Smogon's community. As such, you all get a chance to vote, and if you're voting based on ASB-related motives, there is no mechanism capable of discerning your intention. Even if you are submitting, most of the relevant moves will fall under flavor moves anyway. There are a huge number of both competitive and style voters out there, so while I do urge you not to deliberately vote based on what moves would be more beneficial in ASB than they are in-game, there's no way to enforce that short of you declaring that's your intent (which, as a CAP Mod, I'd have to infract you for).

 

[Frosty]

Regarding the tangent: Honestly I can't see what the big deal is. We have a small community here. The number of people that:

1) Play ASB
2) Vote on the CAP
3) Are willing to vote on movepools just for ASB reasons
4) Are willing to vote as one to influence the end result.

is rather small. Like 10 at most if at all.

And even if they do so, you can vote based on any reason you want. I can't see why "I like Hyper Beam, so the movepool must have it!" is a valid reason and "I like Heal Pulse so the movepool must have it!" is something so appaling that we must consider such a drastic decision in order to prevent that from happening.

We can ask people nicely to separate stuff. And we should. But that as far as I believe we should go.

As for leaving: I certainly would. Of all CAPs, I have 6 (Syclant, Necturna, Pyroak, Stratagem, Colossoil, Cyclohm). Of those 3 are maxed (5th Gen Maxed) and 3 have 50ish moves. I spent a crapload of time and counters building them up (oh god now I feel like a WoW nerd gamer) and even if I were refunded, I really like using them as they fit some of my strategic needs perfectly. It would be frustating as hell to see your best pokemon being axed just like that just because some moron (no offense haha) voted on a movepool just because it had fucking Bide or Heal Pulse.

I mean seriously.


As for the questions:

1) Let them be. Axing them would bring more harm than good.

1a) There is no case of a pokemon from one generation not being present on the following one (not counting Missingno for obvious reasons), so you can't really say "you are from gen 4 so you don't get a DW ability". CAPs should be treated exactly like normal mons and ingame mons got DW abilities. So CAPs should get them too. I can't see why we can't decide it.

2) See 1a. Every pokemon, with the generation shift, gets new moves from that generation and from other generations. I can't see why not do the same with CAPs. Just figure out a good process (who decided, who votes etc) to do so and some parameters (like: only previous-gen moves that are now TMs/HMs/Tutors can be included in movepools and they MUST make sense flavor wise).

 

[Gerard]

My only problem with that is that then we get stuff like Roost Cawmadore. There's no flavor reason for Cawmodore to lack Roost, everything with wings gets it (with the exception of therian Tornadus since it's original form doesn't have wings), but it was excluded form the movepool submissions in order to avoid creating sets that ignored Belly Drum in favor of using it as a wall or a bulky attacker, now in ASB there's no need enforce this restriction since Belly Drum is a really bad strategy to rely on, along with Cawmodore's not so impressive stats, so do we follow precedent and avoid Roost in all future gens or we give it to him under flavor (which GF has also done before)? that's why I'm wary about other gens moves, which while I'm in favor of they would need to be strongly justified and be kept an eye on so we don't end up with some moves slipping in

 

[Deck Knight]

I think there's a way to do this that might satisfy both adherence to canon and allow for past Gen moves. Basically, a CAP cannot get competitive moves specifically disallowed in their movepool threads.

These have not been compiled in one list, but they do exist. Earlier CAPs like Syclant, Revenankh, and Pyroak are almost impossible to decipher, since they were made before the AM/NAM policy.

Starting from the top:

Fidgit Attacking Moves: Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, Ice Beam, and Close Combat disallowed. Icy Wind and Pursuit Allowed.
Fidgit Non-Attacking Moves
Stratagem Attacking Moves (Blizzard, Focus Punch, Grass Knot, and Silver Wind disallowed, all others listed allowed)
Stratagem Non-Attacking Moves (Everything listed Controversial allowed)
Arghonaut Attacking Moves
Arghonaut Non-Attacking Moves
Kitsunoh Attacking Moves (Meteor Mash allowed, New Move = Shadowstrike, Explosion and Brave Bird disallowed)
Kitsunoh Non-Attacking Moves (Psycho Shift Allowed, all other Controversial were Disallowed)
Cyclohm Attacking Moves
Cyclohm Non-Attacking Moves (Controversial: Light Screen, Reflect, Recover Variants, Yawn Allowed; Cosmic Power, Metal Burst, Stockpile series, and Wish disallowed)
Colossoil Attacking Moves | (Controversial Results)
Colossoil Non-Attacking Moves | (Controversial Results)
Krilowatt Attacking Moves | (Controversial Results)
Krilowatt Non-Attacking Moves | (Controversial Results)
Voodoom Attacking Moves | (Controversial Results)
Voodoom Non-Attacking Moves
Tomohawk Attacking Moves - All Controversial Allowed
Tomohawk Non-Attacking Moves | (Controversial Results)
Necturna Attacking Moves (Ignore Controversial Moves, they were shifted to the proper categories)
Necturna Non-Attacking Moves (Ignore Controversial Moves, they were shifted to the proper categories)
Mollux Attacking Moves
Mollux Non-Attacking Moves
Aurumoth Attacking Moves
Aurumoth Non-Attacking Moves
Malaconda Attacking Moves - All Controversial Allowed
Malaconda Non-Attacking Moves - Thunder Wave disallowed, all other Controversial Allowed.
Cawmodore Attacking Moves (All Controversial were Allowed)
Cawmodore Non-Attacking Moves (Controversial: Taunt Disallowed, Roost Allowed)

And there you all have it. Note that in some instances it disallows entire types of coverage, but this should be read as "Competitive" coverage. Mollux for example has Octazooka allowed and "Special Water" disallowed. So with this in mind we have a baseline for saying what moves should and should not be allowed, and we can interpret silence as being allowed. For everything else we should use sound judgement and balance concerns.

Other rules we could use are Type -> Move rules, where a type gets an attack because the vast majority of that type does get that attack. This was the justification for Psychic and Poison Jab on Revenankh, being moves Ghost/Fighting types get reflexively. The same is true for Dig on Fidgit, although there's an ASB Balance argument to be had there.

How this would work, then, for something like Cawmodore is we would decide which moves to add that were competitive that are not disallowed, keeping in mind that what is competitive in-game is not competitive in ASB. So, since Cawmodore had Taunt expressly disallowed, but Roost allowed, we could give Cawmodore Roost to balance out the fact Belly Drum is suspect in ASB (although remember, Cawmodore DOES get Belly Drum + Drain Punch naturally, so it can quickly counteract Belly Drum's HP draining effect.)

 

[Stratos]

Regarding the tangent: Honestly I can't see what the big deal is. We have a small community here. The number of people that:

1) Play ASB
2) Vote on the CAP
3) Are willing to vote on movepools just for ASB reasons
4) Are willing to vote as one to influence the end result.

is rather small. Like 10 at most if at all.

nyttyn's movepool (the mollux one) won with a supermajority. It had received 41 votes and the other two combined to get 40. Is 10 votes insignificant?

 

[Frosty]

Yes it is since:

A) It still was the prefered option
B) 10 votes arent enough to turn a bad option in game into the winner.

Nyttyn had 41 votes out of 81 which means that at least 38.5% of all voters voted for reasons other than asb. So it was a great contestant regardless.

Asb didnt affect the end result to the point of compromising the entire process. If you ask cap players they probably wont even remember that mollux has bide or heal pulse.

You are vastly overstimating asbs influence. In a world where fanboyism is a thing, asb is merely a drop in the ocean of random crap that may sway a voter from choosing the competitive option.

Tbh we have much bigger things to worry about.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Deck Knight

Have we come to a resolution then?

 

[Deck Knight]

Be it resolved:

On prevos:
Prevos that are not canonical shall exist as they currently are.

On abilities:
Dream World Abilities on Gen 4 CAPs shall remain as they are currently implemented. This was a one time issue. CAP Abilities should not be subject to change.

On moves:
Using this post as reference: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/rethinking-caps-and-cap-updates.3493381/#post-5025071
CAPS WILL be updated with each introduction of a new learnset phase.
CAPs CANNOT have moves they were explicitly prohibited from getting during their process.
CAPs MAY have moves that are allowed in their processes if there was some contention about them.
CAPS SHOULD AVOID any moves that were not discussed during their process, but were not explicitly allowed or prohibited, without some compelling reason behind the addition.