Lower Tiers RBY UU Suspect Test Community Pulse

[Volk]

Howdy. So RBY UU has gone through a lot of changes recently, and the opinions people have on these changes are quite diverse. Some of the more recent changes were the APT Ban (June 2022), the Sleep Ban (September 2022), and the introduction of Lapras (November 2022). All these changes, especially the last two, have significant effects on the way RBY UU is played. Additionally, the community of players around RBY UU has shifted, with new players coming along and old players fading out. So in brief, this RBY UU is not the same as what was played even just a year ago.

The RBY Discord has seen a lot of rumbling about RBY UU. As a councilmember, I have heard a lot of complaints about this tier and suggestions on how to make it better. The original plan I think most of us, especially the RBY UU Council, had in mind was to simply Suspect Test Lapras and call it a day, at least until something else problematic emerged. However, the sheer volume of complaints I have received leads me to believe such a course of action will not satisfy the larger RBY UU Community. While much of the Community has Lapras on their radar, much of the Community has their eyes set on other Pokemon as well or instead. For the sake of being fair, I wanted to make this thread to get a more clear perspective on what the Community wants, as I think a thread like this may allow for more organized thoughts to emerge, at least compared to the chaos of Discord. So I encourage you to post your thoughts on RBY UU and how you would approach improving it. Additionally, while discussion isn't a bad thing, I'd rather just field ideas right now as opposed to fight about them, so try not to spark any arguments and just state your points for everyone's sake. And finally, if you have any experience with this tier (Ladder, Tournaments, Analyses, etc.), please let me know in your post so I can get a better idea about from where your ideas might be coming.

Here are some of the suggestions I have heard recently. Note that some of the suggestions may go together; you do not need support just one.

• Suspect / Ban Lapras
• Suspect / Ban Hypno
• Suspect / Ban Tentacruel
• Suspect / Ban Persian
• Suspect / Ban Dragonite
• Suspect / Ban Wrap (or Partial-trapping)
• Unban Sleep

Other topics are welcome, but these are the ones I've heard the most about. Thank you for participating.

I will not be sharing my thoughts on these ideas at this time. If I do, I'll save it for a separate post.
I didn't get approval for this thread (yet), but I'm assuming it's fine because I've been talking about it for a while an no one ever opposed it.

 

[TheLoyalBandito]

I feel that it may be controversial as it was banned just recently was to unban Sleep, it can bring up some viability with the likes of Venusaur in a way to decommission Dragonite in a speed tie who has been a problem for the tier for a long while. If unbanning Sleep isn't a good option, another one is to suspect/ban Wrap or a PT (Partial Trapping) move, it is saddening that remove move to give Tentacruel ditto faster process, but it can be a miserable experience if you don't win the speed tie. It has some form of skill in punishing the opposing team with paralysis help to make Wrap work rather than praying for a speed tie. The main problem with Wrap or a PT move is that it gives enough chip damage if the abuser out-speeds to constantly spam the move, making some battles long, and at most times painful to pray upon the abuser missing to give out a status like poison or paralysis to out-maneuver the abuser. Hopefully that this idea gets out, but for the past year or so it seems from previous bans that Wrap or a PT move has been a big problem in the tier rather than the controversial sleep ban that had happened in the fall of 2022.

 

[Sabelette]

Ban Lapras + Hypno, unban sleep when Hypno was 80% of why sleep got banned, immediately put Persian on the chopping block for debate, see how things are. Honestly I think partial trapping shouldn't exist if we aren't going to push for it to be cart accurate but I care less about that right now.

Banning just Lapras would be terrible btw, Lapras and Hypno are even in power and with sleep unbanned Hypno is arguably more oppressive than Lap. Banning just Lapras is reactionary when people have been complaining about Hypno before and after Sleep ban.

 

[MrSoup]

Ban Lapras + Hypno, unban sleep when Hypno was 80% of why sleep got banned, immediately put Persian on the chopping block for debate, see how things are. Honestly I think partial trapping shouldn't exist if we aren't going to push for it to be cart accurate but I care less about that right now.

Banning just Lapras would be terrible btw, Lapras and Hypno are even in power and with sleep unbanned Hypno is arguably more oppressive than Lap. Banning just Lapras is reactionary when people have been complaining about Hypno before and after Sleep ban.

This is 100% the course of action that I support, and Sable put this extremely concisely. Lapras and Hypno are equally oppressive in the meta and seeing one go without the other wouldn't make sense. Discontent from the before the sleep ban has not quelled and so I see action on Hypno -- the most major culprit -- as the most logical choice. From there a sleep unban is sort of like a reset to what should of happened originally with Hypno, and we can move from there.

There is a lot of theorizing in discord about how this may affect the tier and what may grow oppressive without Hypno and the reintroduction of sleep, including several valid discussions about sleep powder 50/50s. In my opinion, we get there when we can see how the meta settles after these much-needed changes. Things like Persian or Cruel that might grow out of hand can be dealt with in time.

I'm happy to see this pulse survey being pushed for the sake of this tiers health. Thanks council.

 

[Tree69420]

I believe both Hypno and Lapras should be suspected, as they are clearly on a similar level. Although other mons may be identified as bannable, I think we should wait until after these 2 votes and for the metagame to develop before voting on anything else. I would be down for a sleep retest too, but only after the dust has settled.

 

[AM]

As I've been for years I'm of the ban Partial-Trapping camp, the APT clause is dumb anyways and gives Tenta a much needed hit. Run non Hypno/Lapras tour of some sort even if it's just a small discord one or temp private room. Removing Hypno will make Kadabra unbearable to deal with so I think it's bad to test it and put it up for a vote in the hopes a non Hypno meta makes it better.

Stop trying to bring back Sleep too, the mechanic is dumb as hell in RBY no matter the tier. And for what it's worth I dont think RBY UU is bad as Volk makes it sound or the gripes about it, but cool to see thread like this.

 

[Aqua Jet]

Run non Hypno/Lapras tour of some sort even if it's just a small discord one or temp private room.

Hi, I have no horse in this race whatsoever, as I don't play RBY UU very activley, nor have I touched the tier since Lapras dropped. With that out of the way, perhaps UUFPL could function as this? Obviously, you'd need permission from the hosts (so I'm pinging BigFatMantis and Monky25, if for no other reason than to notify them that this has been proposed), but this way the metagame could be explored without some of the elements that are seen to be problematic by the community.

 

[Ema Skye]

Hypno is the most important test imo. It's insane to me that the best Pokemon in the tier (sorry Lapras) is relegated to trading it as a lead. and I think that speaks to how centralizing it is in the tier.

I do think that Tentacruel should be looked at if Hypno and Lap are gone. Tentacruel's level of centralization pre-Lap was obscene and it would fit suspect test criteria in literally any other tier that still had active suspecting.

 

[AM]

Hi, I have no horse in this race whatsoever, as I don't play RBY UU very activley, nor have I touched the tier since Lapras dropped. With that out of the way, perhaps UUFPL could function as this? Obviously, you'd need permission from the hosts (so I'm pinging BigFatMantis and Monky25, if for no other reason than to notify them that this has been proposed), but this way the metagame could be explored without some of the elements that are seen to be problematic by the community.

BFM and Monky need to run it by Volk/tier leaders whatever but for me personally I would be down for that and only Lapras/Hypno removed.

I think all of the other stuff on the list besides Wrap is kind of whatever to me. The lower tiers are always pretty centralized for better or worse.

 

[gastlies]

Ban Lapras and Hypno, re-suspect sleep. If sleep is still a problem after the Lapras and Hypno bans then we can keep it banned. That’s what suspect tests are for. Look into Persian next and maybe kadabra if hypno and persian are banned? it might go nuts with those guys gone. If both those fast mons are gone then look into tent since wrap will be dumb with only duggy and buzz remaining to outspeed it. and if tent also ends up being banned birds might go crazy so we might have to look into those too. A lot of bans and I know I’m looking really far down the road, and everything after persian is completely speculative, but if that’s what it takes to stabilize this currently unplayable tier then we have to do it.

 

[Hipmonlee]

I just want to note that the lapras suspect test has been dragging on for months, with little sign of ending. Please can we aim to minimise further suspect testing.

Here is my analysis of UU:
Lapras and Hypno are utterly broken.
There are too many strong pokemon that have effectively no weaknesses and attacks that arent resisted by anything (Hypno, Kangaskhan, Persian, plus Kadabra and Dodrio to a lesser extent). Consequently, you never need to switch, or really even think at all.

I would hope, in the first instance, that if you are going to do a suspect test, it would remove at least Lapras, Hypno and Persian. You can break the vote down further, but there should be at least a reasonable likelihood that the result of the suspect test will be an enjoyable, balanced metagame.

So please, consider seriously whether, after removing Lapras, Hypno and Persian, it's actually possible to have a balanced metagame with Tentacruel in it.

Because it seems unlikely to me that simply banning Lapras and Hypno is going to fix the issues with UU. And NU is languishing in absolute limbo because anything they do is going to be dependent on UU finally doing the VR that is 6 months overdue. The OU VR is just about to start again.

 

[Lusch]

two cents
unban: Sleep (!), APT
ban: Lapras, Hypno, Dragonite, Tentacruel, Kadabra, (maybe Persian, Articuno, Moltres)
play from there.

 

[juoean]

so idk what i think rly plus ive talked on discord a lot but ill say some thoughts here too ig before whatever test or thread may be upcoming

~ agree with hipmonlee above that almost nothing can be switched into, which leads to very little switching and sometimes overly straightforward gameplay. i dont think its quite as extreme as hip suggests bc theres still positioning which is pretty important (i dont rly mean wrap lol, more like deciding what to use to revenge sac etc which isnt always obvious) and also some endgame planning stuff. still overall the tier's lack of defensive anything is not good.

~ if theres any one or two mons that are a step above the rest and broken in that sense, its hypno. outside of your own hypno, twave psychic really breaks every non psychic, the fp + spec drop chances combine to almost 50% a turn much less if u get them both lol, and the only things that have the special bulk to go up against hypno lack the power to break it well plus most hate twave besides clef. i dont think hypno has any real defensive utility except vs other psychics and kadabra (or mime) which have offensive counterplay so i dont think that theres anything to lose on that front regarding a potential hypno ban.
[tbc i dont find lapras remotely on this level, sure its the #2 mon with its power coverage and bulk but it doesnt have twave, doesnt have a 33% broken secondary effect, lap can be pretty suscpetible to crits even in some of its better matchups like vs normals (kang kos with slam into crit hbeam, persian can get crit tbolts or tbolt paras), plus the blizz miss chance. tbolt and bslam both risk letting things in for free but they have to be clicked sometimes bc of opposing lapras, so the mon requires prediction (which some ppl might just say is annoying lol but idk its worth noting). freezes are kind of broken as always in a lower tier but at least lapras doesnt have anything to take advantage of the free turn other than rest which can be predicted, and outside of rest u can j sac the frozen mon vs it, its nowhere near as bad as articuno freezes pre-lap for example.]

but in terms of lacking any signficant defensive counterplay, youd also have to add (unordered) dodrio, kangaskhan, persian, lapras, kadabra after hypno is removed or banned, articuno if lapras is removed or banned, maybe more but ill stick with those for now. and some of these may have specific checks (eg haunt for persian, rocks for drio, gong/oma/vap for cuno if lap banned) but since obviously no team can fit all of those checks and the checks are generally very middling mons to begin with, whether those mons are broken needs to be evaluated in the context of an opposing team that does not happen to have the specific uncommon defensive check.

~ i continue to think that lapras has improved the tier on the whole, partly bc of side effects like kad and dnite being better, but also because its a blanket counter or check to a bunch of threats that u could never fit checks to otherwise, most notably articuno (hard counter), dodrio (soft check), dugtrio (strong check). this also helps to enable some mons with major defensive weaknesses such as golem and dragonite by not automatically being left super weak to something due to lapras's role compression.

~ if we were to try out smaller scale changes to the tier, my inclination would be to test out banning hypno only. in addition to the fact that hypno is the most broken mon in the tier for the reasons i said above, banning hypno might enable you to actually fit more defensive checks on a team because u arent playing 5v5 most of the time (due to hypno being busted vs evthg other than itself and thus trading with opp hypno most times), so youd have more teambuilding options to cover eg golem's or haunter's weaknesses or for actual defensive cores. id be surprised if this would really fix things tho, but to me this is what would make the most sense to try out if we just wanted to change one or two things. banning both hypno and lapras but nothing else looks worse to me, as you lose lapras's role compression and therefore you will have a similar problem to pre-lapras uu where there are 10 super dangerous offensive threats and you cannot possibly cover all of them in the teambuilder, even if u are getting an extra team slot with hypno banned thats still not enough in the context of [the broken normals + articuno + electrics + dugtrio + tentacruel or kadabra for some teams + even aerodactyl occasionally].

~ in terms of making 'larger' changes, i think its rly hard to say ahead of time without testing theres too many ripple effects etc. hypno lapras dodrio articuno would probably be my 'first level' of broken mons to consider banning, perhaps followed by some of persian kanga kadabra tenta but its hard to say. as far as unbanning sleep, i dont rly see that as likely to improve things (and any uu sleeper is way different from venomoth so i dont rly think nu comparisons are helpful), but its just as valid to test out sleep as anything else and there seem to be a lot of ppl interested in doing so, so go for it. i think agiliwrap dragonite would just be bad in basically any lapras metagame, but the ban is for uncompetitiveness not bc it was every actually good, i dont have any interest in bringing it back myself but its rly whatever in my view its just an at best mediocre cheese strat that people were already starting to veer away from before the ban. i do agree it shouldve been agiliwrap not all APT. either way APT seems like a really side issue here it barely affects the tier whether its legal anyway. as for a total ban on either all partial trapping or just wrap, im fine with testing that out as well. hard to comment on what the impact would be esp if combined with any other bans. i dont rly get why persian would be the first potential ban to look at after hypno lapras over mons like dodrio which everyone hated for its ability to just click buttons / flip coins and ko things, esp when it rose as one of the best leads before sleep was banned, or articuno which has been talked about for potential ban multiple times pre lap esp since a cuno freeze could just end the game since it also then gets a free agility; but again if people want to test it go ahead. idk i dont think theres any really clear approach to take in terms of broader changes beyond just a hypno ban, i think testing a bunch of different things out and seeing how each test goes could be good too.

 

[Shellnuts]

Hey, sorry for the radio silence from the council for a while (we've been having our hands tied with work and all that). I don't have a ton of time to write this so I'll keep it brief.

Suspect Tests:
UU right now is currently not in the best spot, and we know that a lot of the community wants some suspect done to try and improve the tier. The council right now is considering one of two options, and depending on community feedback, will act accordingly.

1. Suspecting Persian - A lot of the volatility in the tier is driven by how hyper aggressive teams need to be to keep up with the rather obscene offensive firepower of Kangaskhan + Persian cores, which leads to teams that can't get back from a bad position if they get unlucky really, leading to a more volatile tier. As such, the council is considering a suspect test of Persian with the goal of significantly weakening normal-centric offensive cores, and helping slow down the metagame with less volatility.

2. Unbanning Sleep - A lot of community members from what we have seen recently have been advocating for a sleep suspect, arguing that the problematic user of sleep was Hypno, and that without Hypno, UU should unban sleep. And as such the council has decided to open the road to possibly suspecting a sleep unban, given how much a large section of the community seems to want it.

VR Update:
Another thing we have been planning to do but not had time for is to potentially get an VR done so we can drop a lot of Pokemon which aren't viable anymore or have been banned. It's been a very long time since the last VR (once again, sorry about that), and we are planning on doing another VR soon. Now with that being said, there has been some discussion about pushing for a new VR after any potential suspects or before any suspects, so we will be asking the player base what option they would prefer, and following accordingly depending on the feedback to this post.

Samples Update:
Something else we hope to get done soon is to update the sample teams which are rather out of date as well. For players (with tour qualifications) looking to submit their UU teams as samples, please PM those teams to council members and we will try to compile them and push out an update as soon as possible.

Once again, we are very sorry for the lack of action as of late, we have been very busy with work, and hope to get more stuff done soon with it.

 

[Sabelette]

I would personally support testing a sleep unban first, then look at bans on specific pokemon like Persian once we see how the meta plays with sleep back on the table should it be unbanned (since the sleep inducers already mitigate the offensive spam to an extent), and only then doing a VR once the meta starts feeling like it’s in a good place.

 

[Volk]

I don't have time or resources to write out a long post right now, so I'll leave everyone with this.

Despite how much I do not like Sleep as a mechanic, I am open to testing Sleep again in RBYPL. I convened a vote on the matter and we should see a decision soon. I believe it will pass. If it does, we'll just need the approval of whomever runs RBYPL this year.

I personally have no strong feelings on pushing a VR forward at this time. To me, this meta is likely impermanent, so encapsulating it in a VR and having that influence NU doesn't make a ton of sense. However, a lot of people want one, so we will consider it. If RBYPL features sleep and the meta is liked, we will try our hardest to proceed with making a VR from there.

I would still very much like to investigate a Persian Ban. Unless it somehow proves healthy in a meta with Sleep restored, I think we'll need to look into Persian again. I imagine we'll pursue a VR regardless of any Suspects after the Sleep Test, if that's how the timeline unfolds. Other Pokemon may be investigated as needed as well or instead.

Cheers.

 

[Volk]

So far 3 out of 5 UU Council Members have voted, all in favor of legalizing Sleep in RBY UU for RBYPL. Tagging phoopes to tag the appropriate people to implement this.

I think we'll finish Grand Slam without Sleep though for consistency, so I guess don't implement the change yet.

 

[NotVeryCake]

Yayyyyy

 

[Tree69420]

Not saying anything on whether or not to ban Persian but I think without it, Kadabra will almost certainly be banworthy. Nothing switches in, Kadabras with a little trigger discipline don't just let Dugtrios in for free. And once offense is nerfed whether through a Persian ban, something else, or a combination of things, Kadabra will be there to completely destroy anything slow still since the only psychic resist that isnt Kadabra is gone. Kadabra's certainly #1 with sleep allowed anyway (nerf nite, most sleepers being poison)

Which brings me to Tentacruel, if Kadabra and Persian end up going, there is no way Tentacruel is still balanced. Maybe it's for the health of the tier to have all these guys go but it certainly will be a big change.


maybe he was right

IDK how balanced cuno or even molt will be when 80% of teams dont carry a decent check to them and something that outspeeds and forces para on them
and if cuno and tent go, dnite probably just runs the tier? you have to pray to paraslam gods but i guess at least you can wake stuff on it or force a trade with haunter

 

[Sabelette]

stuff

idt banning cuno makes kang less good, it just means you can drop Slide for Counter and make everything a lot more mindgamey. or like surf ig if golem ever picked up steam

 

[Volk]

Okay, I just want to preface this by saying this isn't like an official statement from the Council or anything, just me talking.

In principle, I'm all for investigating some of these Pokemon for suspect tests or quick bans. Discussion about these sorts of things is the purpose of this thread, so I'm happy to see it. I do just want to know exactly what the timeline would like if we actually held these suspect tests though. Do we want to let the sleep meta sit for a little while and maybe stabilize before we suspect stuff? Do we still want to create a VR before we suspect stuff? We've delayed the UU VR for a long time thanks to a large number of genuinely enormous tier shifts. I have gotten a lot of criticism about this, particularly from fans of NU. Do we want to do this again? This is a genuine, non-rhetorical question. Looking to ban things right away puts us in an uncomfortable situation pretty much no matter what. Either we make a VR that is fairly likely to be completely inaccurate and base lower tiers off a fallacious VR, or we delay the VR for however long the suspects take plus some time to let the meta stabilize before finally making one. So again, I'm not opposed to exploring new bans and the like in the future, but I do want to make it clear that it will certainly introduce practical challenges. We should really aim to agree on what we want to accomplish with RBY Lower Tiers before we proceed with this.

I will add that implementing quick bans on problematic Pokemon right now probably makes the VR situation the easiest to handle, but it should be obvious why instituting bans in a meta that has lasted for two weeks with no suspect tests would be, at best, a controversial decision.

 

[Tree69420]

Okay, I just want to preface this by saying this isn't like an official statement from the Council or anything, just me talking.

In principle, I'm all for investigating some of these Pokemon for suspect tests or quick bans. Discussion about these sorts of things is the purpose of this thread, so I'm happy to see it. I do just want to know exactly what the timeline would like if we actually held these suspect tests though. Do we want to let the sleep meta sit for a little while and maybe stabilize before we suspect stuff? Do we still want to create a VR before we suspect stuff? We've delayed the UU VR for a long time thanks to a large number of genuinely enormous tier shifts. I have gotten a lot of criticism about this, particularly from fans of NU. Do we want to do this again? This is a genuine, non-rhetorical question. Looking to ban things right away puts us in an uncomfortable situation pretty much no matter what. Either we make a VR that is fairly likely to be completely inaccurate and base lower tiers off a fallacious VR, or we delay the VR for however long the suspects take plus some time to let the meta stabilize before finally making one. So again, I'm not opposed to exploring new bans and the like in the future, but I do want to make it clear that it will certainly introduce practical challenges. We should really aim to agree on what we want to accomplish with RBY Lower Tiers before we proceed with this.

I will add that implementing quick bans on problematic Pokemon right now probably makes the VR situation the easiest to handle, but it should be obvious why instituting bans in a meta that has lasted for two weeks with no suspect tests would be, at best, a controversial decision.

I think this meta might not stabilize for a while even after bans so we might as well do a VR after RBYPL and UUSD conclude then look into suspect tests for either Kang or Cuno (whichever people prefer first, personally lean on the side of cuno) at either the same time or a later date

 

[gastlies]

Not a UU player by any means but here's my two cents based on watching RBYPL games and playing non-UU tiers:

Articuno so far is absolutely broken, there are multiple games in the past two weeks where Articuno committed highway robbery and stole an otherwise-lost game. I'd say wait until at least the first cycle of this PL to see if people can adapt to it (i.e potentially bringing more waters, I noticed insanely low usage of non-tent waters these past two weeks (two dewgong and two omastar to be exact) but it's pretty hard to justify using waters with the insane haunter usage that's going on.

Speaking of Haunter, I agree with Mel that Persian isn't broken atm, largely because of Haunter. However, dodrio seems kinda insane from what I've seen in replays. Kanga seems fine since you have your own kanga to deal with it it, but dodrio's crit rate and frailty make the dodrio mirror more reliant on variance (as in the winner of a dodrio mirror will often be in a better state than the winner of a kanga mirror). A cuno ban will def make drio more unbearable to handle too, so it could maybe be looked at.

As for a VR update, I don't think we should do it until the tier is stabilized. The reason for this is because NU and PU are stable tiers rn (at least compared to UU) so a VR Update will shake them up, and this is an issue because if it's made during an unstable meta, then it's likely UU will have another VR update after the meta stabilizes, which will shake up NU and PU again, this time more permament. This will create a weird "interim" meta for NU and PU between the temporary UU VR made during the clutsterfuck phase and a permament UU VR made after the tier becomes stable, and i'm not a fan of learning a brand new meta knowing it'll drastically change in the near future.

 

[Sabelette]

Speaking from the NU council side i’m good with just waiting and having prelim vrs for the sake of just giving new players something to work with but not doing a real VR till after whatever suspects are gonna happen and then a period to let the meta stabilize. also super agree with not giving reqs to people who aren’t actively playing rn

 

[Volk]

The Council hasn't really discussed it yet. I think we'll just make a decision if there is a clear consensus or hold a vote if it seems contentious. I was pretty sure we were all in favor of treating this as a test, because we wouldn't want to be forced into a Sleep Meta if it was terrible for no reason. While it is just a test, it is still a test, meaning that we are gathering information and we will actually do something with that information. I think we'll have enough information by the end of UUSD to determine whether a ban, unban, or vote is appropriate, with a preference for voting because I think most people would believe that is the most fair/objective method. Then we can easily make a VR immediately after, especially if we end up making Sleep legal. I would estimate that the legality of Sleep and the VR will be declared within about 4–6 weeks after UUSD ends (two weeks for discussion, two weeks for voting, and two weeks for VR collection and hashing, give or take).

For what it is worth, I personally don't think any Pokemon is particularly in need of a ban at this time.