Lower Tiers RBY PU Hub

do any of you think that slowpoke has potential as a setup nidoqueen counter? at +2 spc slowpoke's psychic, surf, and blizzard all have 100% chance to 2hko, and, even though slowpoke is slow, slowpoke has okay-ish bulk. plus, having access to psychic, especially stab psychic, is useful, and amnesia's always great.

alternatively, seaking has access to stab surf, which should 2hko 100% of the time. not only that, seaking as pretty decent bulk, too, and good ice type moves in the form of blizzard and ice beam.

any thoughts? haven't gotten the opportunity to try any of these, yet, but in theory they seem sound.
 

gastlies

running up that hill
is a Pre-Contributor
this looks super interesting so far. is there a discord or something similar for it? i'd love to be able to play this somewhat regularly with other people, testing out teams and movesets and whatnot. in-development metagames are always really interesting.
There's a PU channel in the RBY Discord. That's your best bet if you want to discuss PU.

do any of you think that slowpoke has potential as a setup nidoqueen counter? at +2 spc slowpoke's psychic, surf, and blizzard all have 100% chance to 2hko, and, even though slowpoke is slow, slowpoke has okay-ish bulk. plus, having access to psychic, especially stab psychic, is useful, and amnesia's always great.

alternatively, seaking has access to stab surf, which should 2hko 100% of the time. not only that, seaking as pretty decent bulk, too, and good ice type moves in the form of blizzard and ice beam.

any thoughts? haven't gotten the opportunity to try any of these, yet, but in theory they seem sound.
Slowpoke struggles to switch into Nidoqueen. It takes a minimum of 32% from EQ and a minimum of 50% from thunderbolt. This means Slowpoke can't switch into Nidoqueen's earthquake because then it gets 2hkoed by thunderbolt, even if it boosts with amnesia on the turn after it switches in. It can't even paralyze Nidoqueen since it's a ground type. Seaking suffers the same problem, it gets 3hkoed by Nidoqueen and is outsped. This means it can't switch in and beat it 1-on-1. This is why Nidoqueen is so good. There are some Pokemon that can beat it 1-on-1, but very few can switch in and then proceed to beat it. One of the best Nidoqueen checks is Machamp, since it gets 4hkoed by Earthquake but can 2hko it with its own Earthquake.
 
There's a PU channel in the RBY Discord. That's your best bet if you want to discuss PU.


Slowpoke struggles to switch into Nidoqueen. It takes a minimum of 32% from EQ and a minimum of 50% from thunderbolt. This means Slowpoke can't switch into Nidoqueen's earthquake because then it gets 2hkoed by thunderbolt, even if it boosts with amnesia on the turn after it switches in. It can't even paralyze Nidoqueen since it's a ground type. Seaking suffers the same problem, it gets 3hkoed by Nidoqueen and is outsped. This means it can't switch in and beat it 1-on-1. This is why Nidoqueen is so good. There are some Pokemon that can beat it 1-on-1, but very few can switch in and then proceed to beat it. One of the best Nidoqueen checks is Machamp, since it gets 4hkoed by Earthquake but can 2hko it with its own Earthquake.
oh, interesting. i was thinking of sacking a pokemon in order to get the free switch, but then again, that requires sacking a pokemon. thanks for linking the discord! :)
 

AM

is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
LCPL Champion
Nido, Rapidash, Water that matches well into the Rapidash/Arcanine, Ground resist/immunity, Speed control, extra depending on what you need. Teams that dont have the first 5 minimum are normally going to be bad or subpar for different reasons. Think stuff like Onix, Gastly, Staryu are pretty bad and like all the other lower RBY tiers loading the top end stuff is the only thing you need. Scyther is also a meme and I think Graveler is being a bit underrated, anything that can switch into Fearow + Fires comfortably will normally be good.
 
This tier is cool: name a move that is relevant to the game of RBY and I'll find a pokemon that uses it. Landing sleep inducing moves is way harder than it is in RBY OU, and this is a good thing. Even more, at least at this stage, you can pick a pokemon out of a pool of 25 to possibly 35 and fit it into a team without looking like a fool. Granted, some picks are mandatory and you need to check some conditions when building but they don't look extremely oppressive. On the other hand, switching into attack isn't easy at all.
Amnesia, AgiliWrap and Swords Dance look scary, but I have seen very little of them in action. Amnesia users might be underrated.
Considering I have basically no experience (I don't even know the number of hits to KO for every pokemon) I'll try to contribute with some thoughts and rankings. At least you're going to appreciate the effort, then we'll find out how far I will end up from truth.

S+:
1668598531600.png
is the Tauros of the tier: its attacks are inevitable. But it's not as good due to speed, it can be outsped. CH rate also isn't quite the same and Fire Blast burns can slow it down. I like Substitute (and I don't understand Rock Slide).
Clear number one, it also wins a good number of one vs one matchups (loses to Staryu, Seaking, Abra, Machamp, Pinsir; could lose against Drowzee and Dragonair). Dittos are cruel.

S:
1668598573194.png
is very dangerous even though accuracy sucks. Fire Blast/Spin, Body Slam and Hyper Beam with good speed and CH rate, many players will sign up. Toxic also is an option to help against Omanyte and other Rapidash (making them pay for using Fire Spin), but I wouldn't drop Body Slam. Maybe Arcanine and Fearow have more room for Toxic.

S-
1668598665297.png
is #3, it isn't always used but you could make a case for it to be. Solid and its moves are quite inevitable. It also has room for Agility, unlike other pokemon, even though Hyper Beam can be very useful sometimes.
1668598715635.png
Rapidash2 has great stats but it doesn't learn Fire Spin. It can switch into Fire Blast and unleash the Body Slam + Hyper Beam antics, or use Toxic on Omanyte to make things easier for Rapidash.

A+:
1668598762265.png
best rock in the tier. It takes little damage from Fire-Types and Fearow, but its offense looks weak and relies heavily on paraslams. Fire Blast burns and Toxic happen, and I'm not sure the tier allows you to use Rest a lot even though Omanyte is the one who can make that happen. It's the slowest thing ever, and at first glance it relies on getting a hit off through Fire Spin misses. That's coming from a good special stat though, Surf is like 50% to OHKO Sandslash to give an idea. Hydro Pump anyone?
The whole thing about Omastar is that it's extremely important for the tier because it prevents Scyther (and Pinsir, to a lesser degree) from being degenerated, while also being great against Fearow and good against Fire-Types. I don't think you desperately need it to beat the latter two though, so you don't need to use it every single time. My S-ranked pokemon have better win rates.
1668598776440.png
is damn fast and hits hard. It usually goes down in two hits so it looks different from Zapdos, who can be a pest when not walled. Switching into EQ is nice, but it needs a crit to beat Nidoqueen anyway. Traits for a great late game cleaner.

A-:
1668598918670.png
is bulky enough to belong to many teams. It doesn't look happy to switch into attacks, but it will defend itself against any opponent when it's fresh and goes one vs one. I'm a bit surprised to have basic pokemon ranked so high but Thunder Wave makes miracles. Using sleep moves in this tier is hard and Drowzee's speed doesn't help him, maybe it can try its luck against Omanyte.
1668598939164.png
is a tough call. It's great when unstatused, it sucks when para'd. I assume it's going to be Surf/Thunderbolt even though some are going to use Psychic. I like the fact that it checks pretty much everything when it's unstatused, with its opponents desperately fishing for critical hits or paraslams, and the only pokemon that can switch into it safely multiple times are Grass-Types (Vileplume and Parasect have basically no offese other than sleep&stun, Weepinbell is basically KO'd by TWave even though it will OHKO with Razor Leaf if it connects and if it doesn't overpredict).
1668599073066.png
is a Scyther who got tempered with wisdom: it has better stats and Submission to hit Rock-Types; it isn't weak to Blizzard. Decent speed and damage output with Slash but it looks like the matchup with Nidoqueen is the thing that is really saving it: it takes very little damage from EQ and after that it can take 2 Blizzards (that will KO Scyther instead).
It shined in the few games it was used in, during the early stages of the tournament. Honestly I didn't see this coming. Staryu and Drowzee are being used way more so I still feel comfortable ranking them higher than Pinsir.
Moveset looks tricky, I think you want Slash and Submission, with SD and HB. I'm not on the Bind train.
General consensus is that Seismic Toss (specific for Gastly) is not even going to be considered.
1668599203612.png
has the combination of speed, Hypnosis and Amnesia, which is scary. It can outplay Seaking with the notorious Hypnosis into Amnesia sequence, after switching into Surf or coming in on a predicted switch or as a revenge killer. Other than that, it looks like something that doesn't want to switch into any attack. +2 Hydro Pump OHKOs Fire-Types but Poliwag doesn't look like a lead, I'd rather bring it out later.
To me it looks the best pokemon with a sleep inducing move but I might be too high on it: paralysis is terrible and Poliwag is so weak that it loses 1 vs 1 to Fire Types, not to mention that Fearow is faster and HB is a OHKO one third of the times. I need to see (or play) more games with it: I love its potential but I need to know better to rank it higher even though I am very tempted to.
1668599354902.png
looks unexciting to me because its offense other than Sleep&Stun is so pathetic, but it turns out it has decent usage and wins roughly half of the games it's used in. Maybe Sleep&Stun is enough.
Walling Staryu is nice and Vileplume is bulky in general, but it also has weaknesses. Speed isn't great. I think it's putting up decent performances because Vileplume is the way players are getting sleep off, so I don't see it getting better. It can only go down as soon as we figure other ways to get the sleep IMO. Poliwag/Gastly/Drowzee, arguably in this specific order.
1668599383739.png
is the slow, bulkier version of Poliwag and it uses TWave instead of Hypnosis. I'm not sure it can use Rest with things like Nidoqueen, Fearow, Pinsir or Machamp coming in, so running both Psychic and Surf looks reasonable to me. I predict it to be a respectable threat.

B:
1668599666611.png
I had it listed lower initially, but I think that was wrong. It can do nasty things with AgiliWrap while being also a decent hit and runner if you need just a little contribution to secure the win. However, it's definitely not as threatening as Dragonite is in OU and finding an opening for Agility (without the risk of getting statused) isn't easy. Dragonair can use its normal speed with Agility as a backup in case it gets para'd.
Moveset is up for debate: Wrap, Surf and two of Agility, TWave and Thunderbolt.
It looks like Hyper Beam is good only when facing Abra or Drowzee. I'm going to stress once more that TWave is a great button in this tier.
I think you have to live with not being able to finish against Vileplume because Surf is better than Blizzard.
1668599424912.png
I need to see more action from it. It doesn't get used a lot but it has the traits to be a great revenge killer and possibly even more, even though it can't switch into attacks.
Extremely threatening but it gets OHKO'd by Hyper Beams, and there are faster pokemon (Fire-Types, Fearow, Scyther).
1668599442284.png
is the only pokemon that can take 3 EQs from Nidoqueen and live to tell the story (unless max rolls or crits happen). On paper it's great but if Fearow is kept under control by its weaknesses, Machamp is kept under control by its speed. It should also beat Seaking more often than not, Fire-Types need a Fire Blast burn.
1668599516091.png
some players use it but I don't like Psychic nor SToss, moves that look quite specific for Omanyte to me. Confuse Ray can be good sometimes, but I like Rapidash and Arcanine better. It can get OHKO'd by Sandslash and Graveler, and very often by +2 Hyper Beams (Rapidash and Arcanine can take it).

C:
1668599624401.png
is an even trickier call than Staryu, it looks extremely hit or miss depending on predictions. It loses many one on ones, most notably Nidoqueen and Fire-Types, but it does great against Water-Types, especially Amnesia users.
Anyway, you need to stay away from TWave and you also need to predict a switching in Nidoqueen by using Psychic instead of Thunderbolt.
1668599575477.png
I don't think Graveler wants to switch into Fire Blast, my take is that you answer Fire-types with your own, and you want to paraslam them. Toxic isn't much of a problem because, unlike Omanyte, Graveler can hit hard. Graveler fails the Nidoqueen test, is slow and suffers some OHKOs.
Sure, it checks Fire-Types damn well, denying Fire Spin, and it helps a lot against Fearow. It can do good things if you can get it into the battlefield for free (maybe with a trapping move) and you can bail him out against Nidoqueen and Water moves.
1668599930323.png
potentially is the most dangerous pokemon in the tier. However, it can get OHKO'd by Rapidash/Arcanine and it's walled by Omanyte, Graveler and Gastly. Other than that it needs little setup to sweep entire teams. Scyther looks great on paper but reality is a different thing. It still looks underrated to me though.
1668604689173.png
Sure, it's frail and Nidoqueen 2HKOs it (Vileplume can take 2 hits) but Weepinbell has some offense other than Sleep&Stun: Wrap means that you have the upper hand against para'd Fire-Types and Razor Leaf can force Water-Types out, making Stun Spore better.
1668601886118.png
I like Machamp better. Primeape is faster but it's significantly worse against Nidoqueen and Fire-Types.
1668601896309.png
Another pokemon that fails the Nidoqueen test, while being naturally weak to Water and also not in a nice spot against unstatused Fire-Types.

D:
1668602479613.png
doesn't match up well with Nidoqueen and Fire and Water types. Decent bulk (it can check Seaking), but good part of its game revolves around hitting good targets with Explosion. Mega Drain saves it from being walled by Rocks.
1668602083931.png
I don't like being walled by Nidoqueen. Things can only get worse with Graveler or possibly Vileplume.
1668601951779.png
Nobody talks about it because it's a worse Fearow (no Drill Peck and unfavorable stats) and nobody uses both, but I'll mention it here.
1668601987678.png
is damn slow, I have seen little from it and I wouldn't rule it out yet.
1668602005474.png
has Sleep&Stun and can push some damage, it just needs to find an opening. Its speed (most notably, being outsped by Nidoqueen) condemns it to mediocrity.
1668602023226.png
has great stats but it's too slow. Maybe it could do good things but I like the other Fire-Types (even Magmar) better because they deal better with Nidoqueen, Water-Types and Scyther.
1668602039676.png
has Glare, Wrap and decent speed but it can't beat any of the top threats (Nidoqueen, Fire-Types, Water-Types) in a pure one on one. Stats are quite similar to Dragonair's, who looks like the better version of it.
1668602095986.png
is quite similar to Vileplume but it's way weaker to special attacks, and slower.
1668602112211.png
It looks like a lesser Muk, which isn't spectacular to start with. It doesn't match up well with Nidoqueen and Fire types. It looks like Explosion and Thunderbolt are all it can offer, and Muk's Explosion is better.
1668602168722.png
I'd just use Graveler. Onix is faster and has Bind but damage output is too low and it gets OHKO'd by Nidoqueen's Blizzard.

E:
1668602127568.png
I'd pick Electrode instead.
1668602185009.png
At first I thought it could at least learn Earthquake, it turns out it can't even do that. Not that it would help its case.
1668602261451.png
1668602386852.png
1668602408615.png
1668602420990.png
too weak, I don't think they belong. They need to evolve.
1668602235007.png
1668602212807.png
the way Fighting-Types always got disrespected in gen1, whether it was the cartridge game or trading cards, makes me sick to my stomach. To this very day. I needed to get this off my chest.
 
Last edited:

Teh

the saint
is a Pre-Contributor
1668599354902.png
looks unexciting to me because its offense other than Sleep&Stun is so pathetic, but it turns out it has decent usage and wins roughly half of the games it's used in. Maybe Sleep&Stun is enough.
Walling Staryu is nice and Vileplume is bulky in general, but it also has weaknesses. Speed isn't great. I think it's putting up decent performances because Vileplume is the way players are getting sleep off, so I don't see it getting better. It can only go down as soon as we figure other ways to get the sleep IMO. Poliwag/Gastly/Drowzee, arguably in this specific order.
(I know you said that Vileplume can only go down but I'm just using this as a way to vent my frustration at it's absurdly high usage.)

I think you're significantly overrating Vileplume here. Just because it has high usage doesn't make it good (see Rhyhorn in 7u, That thing had crazy high usage in early rounds.) Most usage comes from the fact that it's on most of the sample teams provided. I've discussed with the person who created them and they agreed with me that they were outdated.

But besides not getting 2HKO by Nidoqueen, what does Vileplume do that makes it better than every other sleeper?
  • Drowzee has STAB Psychic and can switch into to other psychics.
  • Gastly is the fastest sleep inducer and has a great move pool.
  • Weepinbell is basically just objectively better than Vileplume in every way besides bulk. It's faster, has access to Razor Leaf, and doesn't fold instantly to paralyzed fires because it has Wrap.
The only use case that Vileplume has is if you need a sleeper and your team is particularly weak to Nidoqueen. But even then I would still hesitate to use it because it just has no offensive pressure at all. The same applies to Omanyte but that's a discussion for another day.
 
(I know you said that Vileplume can only go down but I'm just using this as a way to vent my frustration at it's absurdly high usage.)

I think you're significantly overrating Vileplume here. Just because it has high usage doesn't make it good (see Rhyhorn in 7u, That thing had crazy high usage in early rounds.) Most usage comes from the fact that it's on most of the sample teams provided. I've discussed with the person who created them and they agreed with me that they were outdated.

But besides not getting 2HKO by Nidoqueen, what does Vileplume do that makes it better than every other sleeper?
  • Drowzee has STAB Psychic and can switch into to other psychics.
  • Gastly is the fastest sleep inducer and has a great move pool.
  • Weepinbell is basically just objectively better than Vileplume in every way besides bulk. It's faster, has access to Razor Leaf, and doesn't fold instantly to paralyzed fires because it has Wrap.
The only use case that Vileplume has is if you need a sleeper and your team is particularly weak to Nidoqueen. But even then I would still hesitate to use it because it just has no offensive pressure at all. The same applies to Omanyte but that's a discussion for another day.
I agree, both are putrid offensively and I personally don't like them. I have Drowzee at number 7 and Poliwag at number 10 (and potentially higher than that). I like Weepinbell better but my rankings factor more things than my personal opinion. We need more games.
Yeah, sample teams might have played a major role. Still, Vileplume has a positive win rate after being used in almost 20 teams and I have to take that into account even though I find it hard to explain it. At least that's how my ranking policy works, especially if I consider that I'm not experienced with the tier.

If you think Gastly and Weepinbell should be ranked higher, or at least higher than Vileplume, I understand your point. I just did not have the guts to rank them higher than Vileplume without evidence. We'll see what happens.
 
This tier is cool: name a move that is relevant to the game of RBY and I'll find a pokemon that uses it. Landing sleep inducing moves is way harder than it is in RBY OU, and this is a good thing. Even more, at least at this stage, you can pick a pokemon out of a pool of 25 to possibly 35 and fit it into a team without looking like a fool. Granted, some picks are mandatory and you need to check some conditions when building but they don't look extremely oppressive. On the other hand, switching into attack isn't easy at all.
Amnesia, AgiliWrap and Swords Dance look scary, but I have seen very little of them in action. Amnesia users might be underrated.
Considering I have basically no experience (I don't even know the number of hits to KO for every pokemon) I'll try to contribute with some thoughts and rankings. At least you're going to appreciate the effort, then we'll find out how far I will end up from truth.

S+:
View attachment 466009 is the Tauros of the tier: its attacks are inevitable. But it's not as good due to speed, it can be outsped. CH rate also isn't quite the same and Fire Blast burns can slow it down. I like Substitute (and I don't understand Rock Slide).
Clear number one, it also wins a good number of one vs one matchups (loses to Staryu, Seaking, Abra, Machamp, Pinsir; could lose against Drowzee and Dragonair). Dittos are cruel.

S:
View attachment 466010 is very dangerous even though accuracy sucks. Fire Blast/Spin, Body Slam and Hyper Beam with good speed and CH rate, many players will sign up. Toxic also is an option to help against Omanyte and other Rapidash (making them pay for using Fire Spin), but I wouldn't drop Body Slam. Maybe Arcanine and Fearow have more room for Toxic.

S-
View attachment 466011 is #3, it isn't always used but you could make a case for it to be. Solid and its moves are quite inevitable. It also has room for Agility, unlike other pokemon, even though Hyper Beam can be very useful sometimes.
View attachment 466012 Rapidash2 has great stats but it doesn't learn Fire Spin. It can switch into Fire Blast and unleash the Body Slam + Hyper Beam antics, or use Toxic on Omanyte to make things easier for Rapidash.

A+:
View attachment 466013 best rock in the tier. It takes little damage from Fire-Types and Fearow, but its offense looks weak and relies heavily on paraslams. Fire Blast burns and Toxic happen, and I'm not sure the tier allows you to use Rest a lot even though Omanyte is the one who can make that happen. It's the slowest thing ever, and at first glance it relies on getting a hit off through Fire Spin misses. That's coming from a good special stat though, Surf is like 50% to OHKO Sandslash to give an idea. Hydro Pump anyone?
The whole thing about Omastar is that it's extremely important for the tier because it prevents Scyther (and Pinsir, to a lesser degree) from being degenerated, while also being great against Fearow and good against Fire-Types. I don't think you desperately need it to beat the latter two though, so you don't need to use it every single time. My S-ranked pokemon have better win rates.
View attachment 466014 is damn fast and hits hard. It usually goes down in two hits so it looks different from Zapdos, who can be a pest when not walled. Switching into EQ is nice, but it needs a crit to beat Nidoqueen anyway. Traits for a great late game cleaner.

A-:
View attachment 466015 is bulky enough to belong to many teams. It doesn't look happy to switch into attacks, but it will defend itself against any opponent when it's fresh and goes one vs one. I'm a bit surprised to have basic pokemon ranked so high but Thunder Wave makes miracles. Using sleep moves in this tier is hard and Drowzee's speed doesn't help him, maybe it can try its luck against Omanyte.
View attachment 466016 is a tough call. It's great when unstatused, it sucks when para'd. I assume it's going to be Surf/Thunderbolt even though some are going to use Psychic. I like the fact that it checks pretty much everything when it's unstatused, with its opponents desperately fishing for critical hits or paraslams, and the only pokemon that can switch into it safely multiple times are Grass-Types (Vileplume and Parasect have basically no offese other than sleep&stun, Weepinbell is basically KO'd by TWave even though it will OHKO with Razor Leaf if it connects and if it doesn't overpredict).
View attachment 466017 is a Scyther who got tempered with wisdom: it has better stats and Submission to hit Rock-Types; it isn't weak to Blizzard. Decent speed and damage output with Slash but it looks like the matchup with Nidoqueen is the thing that is really saving it: it takes very little damage from EQ and after that it can take 2 Blizzards (that will KO Scyther instead).
It shined in the few games it was used in, during the early stages of the tournament. Honestly I didn't see this coming. Staryu and Drowzee are being used way more so I still feel comfortable ranking them higher than Pinsir.
Moveset looks tricky, I think you want Slash and Submission, with SD and HB. I'm not on the Bind train.
General consensus is that Seismic Toss (specific for Gastly) is not even going to be considered.
View attachment 466018 has the combination of speed, Hypnosis and Amnesia, which is scary. It can outplay Seaking with the notorious Hypnosis into Amnesia sequence, after switching into Surf or coming in on a predicted switch or as a revenge killer. Other than that, it looks like something that doesn't want to switch into any attack. +2 Hydro Pump OHKOs Fire-Types but Poliwag doesn't look like a lead, I'd rather bring it out later.
To me it looks the best pokemon with a sleep inducing move but I might be too high on it: paralysis is terrible and Poliwag is so weak that it loses 1 vs 1 to Fire Types, not to mention that Fearow is faster and HB is a OHKO one third of the times. I need to see (or play) more games with it: I love its potential but I need to know better to rank it higher even though I am very tempted to.
View attachment 466019 looks unexciting to me because its offense other than Sleep&Stun is so pathetic, but it turns out it has decent usage and wins roughly half of the games it's used in. Maybe Sleep&Stun is enough.
Walling Staryu is nice and Vileplume is bulky in general, but it also has weaknesses. Speed isn't great. I think it's putting up decent performances because Vileplume is the way players are getting sleep off, so I don't see it getting better. It can only go down as soon as we figure other ways to get the sleep IMO. Poliwag/Gastly/Drowzee, arguably in this specific order.
View attachment 466020 is the slow, bulkier version of Poliwag and it uses TWave instead of Hypnosis. I'm not sure it can use Rest with things like Nidoqueen, Fearow, Pinsir or Machamp coming in, so running both Psychic and Surf looks reasonable to me. I predict it to be a respectable threat.

B:
View attachment 466026I had it listed lower initially, but I think that was wrong. It can do nasty things with AgiliWrap while being also a decent hit and runner if you need just a little contribution to secure the win. However, it's definitely not as threatening as Dragonite is in OU and finding an opening for Agility (without the risk of getting statused) isn't easy. Dragonair can use its normal speed with Agility as a backup in case it gets para'd.
Moveset is up for debate: Wrap, Surf and two of Agility, TWave and Thunderbolt.
It looks like Hyper Beam is good only when facing Abra or Drowzee. I'm going to stress once more that TWave is a great button in this tier.
I think you have to live with not being able to finish against Vileplume because Surf is better than Blizzard.
View attachment 466021 I need to see more action from it. It doesn't get used a lot but it has the traits to be a great revenge killer and possibly even more, even though it can't switch into attacks.
Extremely threatening but it gets OHKO'd by Hyper Beams, and there are faster pokemon (Fire-Types, Fearow, Scyther).
View attachment 466022 is the only pokemon that can take 3 EQs from Nidoqueen and live to tell the story (unless max rolls or crits happen). On paper it's great but if Fearow is kept under control by its weaknesses, Machamp is kept under control by its speed. It should also beat Seaking more often than not, Fire-Types need a Fire Blast burn.
View attachment 466023 some players use it but I don't like Psychic nor SToss, moves that look quite specific for Omanyte to me. Confuse Ray can be good sometimes, but I like Rapidash and Arcanine better. It can get OHKO'd by Sandslash and Graveler, and very often by +2 Hyper Beams (Rapidash and Arcanine can take it).

C:
View attachment 466025 is an even trickier call than Staryu, it looks extremely hit or miss depending on predictions. It loses many one on ones, most notably Nidoqueen and Fire-Types, but it does great against Water-Types, especially Amnesia users.
Anyway, you need to stay away from TWave and you also need to predict a switching in Nidoqueen by using Psychic instead of Thunderbolt.
View attachment 466024I don't think Graveler wants to switch into Fire Blast, my take is that you answer Fire-types with your own, and you want to paraslam them. Toxic isn't much of a problem because, unlike Omanyte, Graveler can hit hard. Graveler fails the Nidoqueen test, is slow and suffers some OHKOs.
Sure, it checks Fire-Types damn well, denying Fire Spin, and it helps a lot against Fearow. It can do good things if you can get it into the battlefield for free (maybe with a trapping move) and you can bail him out against Nidoqueen and Water moves.
View attachment 466027 potentially is the most dangerous pokemon in the tier. However, it can get OHKO'd by Rapidash/Arcanine and it's walled by Omanyte, Graveler and Gastly. Other than that it needs little setup to sweep entire teams. Scyther looks great on paper but reality is a different thing. It still looks underrated to me though.
View attachment 466062Sure, it's frail and Nidoqueen 2HKOs it (Vileplume can take 2 hits) but Weepinbell has some offense other than Sleep&Stun: Wrap means that you have the upper hand against para'd Fire-Types and Razor Leaf can force Water-Types out, making Stun Spore better.
View attachment 466037 I like Machamp better. Primeape is faster but it's significantly worse against Nidoqueen and Fire-Types.
View attachment 466038Another pokemon that fails the Nidoqueen test, while being naturally weak to Water and also not in a nice spot against unstatused Fire-Types.

D:
View attachment 466057doesn't match up well with Nidoqueen and Fire and Water types. Decent bulk (it can check Seaking), but good part of its game revolves around hitting good targets with Explosion. Mega Drain saves it from being walled by Rocks.
View attachment 466045 I don't like being walled by Nidoqueen. Things can only get worse with Graveler or possibly Vileplume.
View attachment 466039 Nobody talks about it because it's a worse Fearow (no Drill Peck and unfavorable stats) and nobody uses both, but I'll mention it here.
View attachment 466040 is damn slow, I have seen little from it and I wouldn't rule it out yet.
View attachment 466041 has Sleep&Stun and can push some damage, it just needs to find an opening. Its speed (most notably, being outsped by Nidoqueen) condemns it to mediocrity.
View attachment 466042 has great stats but it's too slow. Maybe it could do good things but I like the other Fire-Types (even Magmar) better because they deal better with Nidoqueen, Water-Types and Scyther.
View attachment 466043has Glare, Wrap and decent speed but it can't beat any of the top threats (Nidoqueen, Fire-Types, Water-Types) in a pure one on one. Stats are quite similar to Dragonair's, who looks like the better version of it.
View attachment 466046 is quite similar to Vileplume but it's way weaker to special attacks, and slower.
View attachment 466047 It looks like a lesser Muk, which isn't spectacular to start with. It doesn't match up well with Nidoqueen and Fire types. It looks like Explosion and Thunderbolt are all it can offer, and Muk's Explosion is better.
View attachment 466049 I'd just use Graveler. Onix is faster and has Bind but damage output is too low and it gets OHKO'd by Nidoqueen's Blizzard.

E:
View attachment 466048 I'd pick Electrode instead.
View attachment 466050 At first I thought it could at least learn Earthquake, it turns out it can't even do that. Not that it would help its case.
View attachment 466053 View attachment 466054 View attachment 466055View attachment 466056 too weak, I don't think they belong. They need to evolve.
View attachment 466052 View attachment 466051the way Fighting-Types always got disrespected in gen1, whether it was the cartridge game or trading cards, makes me sick to my stomach. To this very day. I needed to get this off my chest.
I agree with what you said about fighting types, but you forgot one key thing: Hitmonchan in Haymaker Decks.
 
View attachment 466045I don't like being walled by Nidoqueen. Things can only get worse with Graveler or possibly Vileplume.
honestly, i think electrode is underrated. forces out many relevant threats out and can potentially switch in on them.
Seaking Hyper Beam vs. Electrode: 128-151 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Seaking Surf vs. Electrode: 102-121 (31.5 - 37.4%) -- 89.3% chance to 3HKO
Electrode Thunderbolt vs. Seaking: 205-242 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Rapidash Fire Blast vs. Electrode: 130-153 (40.2 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(even if it does burn rapidash still does not want to be para'd)
Rapidash Hyper Beam vs. Electrode: 136-160 (42.1 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Electrode Explosion vs. -2 Rapidash: 409-481 (122.8 - 144.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Arcanine Fire Blast vs. Electrode: 130-153 (40.2 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(same as rapidash)
Arcanine Hyper Beam vs. Electrode: 144-170 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- 22.6% chance to 2HKO
Electrode Explosion vs. -2 Arcanine: 376-443 (98.1 - 115.6%) -- 89.7% chance to OHKO
Omanyte Hydro Pump vs. Electrode: 140-165 (43.3 - 51%) -- 4.1% chance to 2HKO
Omanyte Blizzard vs. Electrode: 93-110 (28.7 - 34%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
Electrode Thunderbolt vs. Omanyte: 194-228 (71 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Fearow Double-Edge vs. Electrode: 127-150 (39.3 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Fearow Hyper Beam vs. Electrode: 189-223 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(i am aware that fearow does beat electrode after an agility, still scary though)
Electrode Thunderbolt vs. Fearow: 239-282 (71.7 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Magmar Fire Blast vs. Electrode: 136-160 (42.1 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(same as rapidash and arcanine)
Electrode Explosion vs. -2 Magmar: 455-535 (136.6 - 160.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Abra Psychic vs. Electrode: 117-138 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Electrode Explosion vs. Abra: 376-443 (148.6 - 175%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Poliwag Hydro Pump vs. Electrode: 90-106 (27.8 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Electrode Thunderbolt vs. Poliwag: 301-354 (106.3 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 Poliwag Hydro Pump vs. Electrode: 181-213 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Electrode Explosion vs. Poliwag: 271-319 (95.7 - 112.7%) -- 74.4% chance to OHKO
Scyther Slash vs. Electrode on a critical hit: 131-155 (40.5 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Scyther Hyper Beam vs. Electrode: 144-170 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- 22.6% chance to 2HKO
Electrode Thunderbolt vs. Scyther: 255-300 (74.3 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Staryu Hydro Pump vs. Electrode: 119-141 (36.8 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Electrode Thunderbolt vs. Staryu: 224-264 (85.1 - 100.3%) -- 2.6% chance to OHKO
Drowzee Psychic vs. Electrode: 105-124 (32.5 - 38.3%) -- 98.5% chance to 3HKO
Electrode Explosion vs. -2 Drowzee: 513-603 (158.8 - 186.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO


also not mentioning how many more things it scares out with paralysis
imo this thing is b tier
 
honestly, i think electrode is underrated. forces out many relevant threats out and can potentially switch in on them.


also not mentioning how many more things it scares out with paralysis
imo this thing is b tier
Yeah, it might be underrated. My D rank is quite harsh. Thunderbolt definitely is fashinating in a tier where Omanyte and Seaking are all over the place, Fearow is a good pick, and you are dishing out neutral damage at worst after Nidoqueen and possibly Vileplume are gone (let's assume a scenario where Graveler and Sandslash are rare).
However, if you look at how games play out in this tier, Nidoqueen is very often saved for late game.

Damage rolls aren't all that important, we know Electrode could be dangerous but before that you have some work to do. Its game heavily revolves around baiting Nidoqueen in and making a double switch to something else that can chip away at opposing defenses until Nidoqueen has to stay in and you can KO it.
 

Ema Skye

Work!
I do think Electrode's largest merit in the tier is its Screech+Explosion combo, removing Nidoqueen if it switches into the Screech (as Explosion will do 94% min). My Electrode for their Nidoqueen feels like a worthwhile trade. Alternatively, the Screech forces the Queen out and allows me to click more Thunderbolts vs their Fires. But it is very useless against Queen+Plume or Queen+Grav structures so I don't think it's a very valuable pick while Vileplume usage is high right now.
 
speaking of vileplume

i personally am under the opinion that vileplume is like c tier, even though sleep, paralysis spreading and grass stab are honestly really good traits
id usually just use weepin bell because it gets wrap, has viable grass stab in razor leaf and can still do sleep and paralysis shenanigans
Vileplume Mega Drain vs. Omanyte: 194-228 (71 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
plume can't even one shot omanyte with a 4x effective move
meanwhile weepinbell
Weepinbell Razor Leaf vs. Omanyte on a critical hit: 452-532 (165.5 - 194.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(i dont know why its automatically crit when i dont think weepinbell is fast enough to get guarenteed crits but whatever still kills)
also because of wrap, it FEEDS on an incoming machamp or anything slower than it for that matter.

although vileplume still has a niche as a more specially defensive mon than weepinbell, also has better defense
probably preferred on more defensive teams, but personally i think weepinbell is better.
 
ok guys... you know what uhh what time it is?

that's right
time for my long awaited EPIC GAMER BOK ANAYLYSIS!!!
Now, you might be thinking to yourself, "chermal shut up bok sucks you should be ashamed at yourself for spreading such blatant disinformation how could you" but trust me, bok is secretly amazing and I'm going to show you why.

enough messing around with font sizes for now... time to get into the meat of bok behavior.

You see,



see this? see this fellow right here? this here, is bok. say hi to bok. now, what's so special about bok you may ask?
well, you see, it's got a pretty nice speed tier of 80 speed. this means it outspeeds nidoqueen, which will be important for later.

it's signature move, glare, while frustratingly innacurate at times with its 15 (75) percent accuracy, can paralyze ground types. sure, stun powder can accomplish the same, but all the users of stun spore are slower than nidoqueen. therefore, it's risky, n, yeah.

thanks to bok's diligent dirt eating routine, bok is guaranteed to survive one nidoqueen earthquake barring crits. this means it can have a second go at rolling the bones at glare if it fails the first time. bok also has access to wrap, which can allow you to pull off the gamer move of killing nido from full health. because bok has EQ for some reason, bok can do 37 - 43.8% nido in return. so, with some chip damage, you can. yeah kill nidoqueen. Whether you chip her into 2HKO range, OHKO range, or just decide to be wacky and wrap it to death, you can do that if you want! also, wrap let's you switch in something more threatening.

bok also outspeeds seaking. p cool. also dragonair, so don't try to argue that bok is just outclassed by nair. technically that's not true.

mega drain is cool against graveler with a 40.7% to 2HKO, as well as the rare but admittedly pretty bad onix (rby ZU moment). also a 93.5% chance to 2HKO Omanyte with EQ. you could use HB but personally in my experience, I prefer mega drain. Hyper beam can do stuff too though.

all in all, bok is uhh- well, in all honesty, bok is only really niche at best. all of my attempts to build with bok have failed- I still feel like there's some magic combo out there that's yet to be discovered however. probably not though. at the current moment bok isn't really at all tournament viable if you're looking for consistency, plus, there's a lot of opportunity cost to running bok instead of something else like seaking or smth.

but, y'know, if you need a universal para spreader that can pivot with a partial trapping move and outspeeds nido for your team, you know who to call...

body slam rapidash or smth idk bok kinda sucks. but uhh if you guys have any, any ideas, please feel free to share. and let me know. thank you. this uhh, me first time doing this, pretty rough around the edges, will prolly do something more in depth some day, but. hope you enjoyed this somewhat.

this concludes my analysis of everybody's favorite generation one ZUBL poke-man, mr. ar bok.
 

Ema Skye

Work!
Swiss rounds in the Pioneer tournament are nearly over and as we prepare to update resources for the tier, I thought providing usage stats for the tournament's swiss round would be helpful as a reference point. At the time of my posting, there were 237 replays, meaning 474 teams were used.

RBY PU

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Nidoqueen          |  429 |  90.51% |  47.32% |
| 2    | Rapidash           |  355 |  74.89% |  46.48% |
| 3    | Staryu             |  270 |  56.96% |  52.22% |
| 4    | Omanyte            |  207 |  43.67% |  52.17% |
| 5    | Drowzee            |  181 |  38.19% |  53.59% |
| 6    | Seaking            |  177 |  37.34% |  48.59% |
| 7    | Arcanine           |  141 |  29.75% |  49.65% |
| 8    | Fearow             |  131 |  27.64% |  44.27% |
| 9    | Vileplume          |  127 |  26.79% |  48.82% |
| 10   | Dragonair          |   84 |  17.72% |  51.19% |
| 11   | Graveler           |   81 |  17.09% |  43.21% |
| 12   | Pinsir             |   76 |  16.03% |  60.53% |
| 13   | Machamp            |   73 |  15.40% |  53.42% |
| 14   | Magmar             |   59 |  12.45% |  30.51% |
| 15   | Abra               |   57 |  12.03% |  43.86% |
| 16   | Slowpoke           |   56 |  11.81% |  58.93% |
| 17   | Sandslash          |   51 |  10.76% |  43.14% |
| 18   | Gastly             |   35 |   7.38% |  51.43% |
| 19   | Weepinbell         |   32 |   6.75% |  59.38% |
| 20   | Electrode          |   27 |   5.70% |  29.63% |
| 21   | Poliwag            |   16 |   3.38% |  43.75% |
| 22   | Onix               |   12 |   2.53% |  50.00% |
| 23   | Lickitung          |   11 |   2.32% |  45.45% |
| 24   | Arbok              |   10 |   2.11% |  30.00% |
| 25   | Primeape           |    7 |   1.48% |  42.86% |
| 26   | Flareon            |    5 |   1.05% |  20.00% |
| 26   | Muk                |    5 |   1.05% |  20.00% |
| 26   | Scyther            |    5 |   1.05% |   0.00% |
| 29   | Magneton           |    3 |   0.63% |  66.67% |
| 29   | Parasect           |    3 |   0.63% |  33.33% |
| 29   | Shellder           |    3 |   0.63% |  33.33% |
| 32   | Pidgeot            |    1 |   0.21% |   0.00% |
| 32   | Seadra             |    1 |   0.21% |   0.00% |
| 32   | Tentacool          |    1 |   0.21% |   0.00% |
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from GASTALIES.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BT89.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BT89.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from TOXIN BOOST.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from YIMB.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CATCHMYCHUB.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from HUMANDISASTER.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from NICOLE7735.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from ARA.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from ROYZIN.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from FREEDOM'S COST.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from GANGSTA SPONGEBOB.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from COLLECTORELY.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from TEHTAYTEH.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CHERMAL.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from NICOLE7735.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from MICHAELDERBESTE2.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BIG YELLOW SSBM.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from I♥FOXGIRLS.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from MAKI'S FOX.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from FREEDOM'S COST.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from STUNNER047.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from LONDON13.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from MISTER TIM.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from SIFICON~.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from YAZUWU.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from YAZUWU.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BEATSBLACK.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BEATSBLACK.
  • Missing 3 Pokemon from YIMB.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from LADY WRITER ☾.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from Y-ROCKO.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BAN MANAPHY.
  • Missing 4 Pokemon from SOMALIA.
  • Missing 4 Pokemon from LAMBOVINO.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BT89.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from FAATBATMAN.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from XBOSSARUX.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from SQURTLEONYOURPUFF.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from SQURTLEONYOURPUFF.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from I♥FOXGIRLS.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from MARCOASD.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BIG YELLOW SSBM.
  • Missing 3 Pokemon from BIG YELLOW SSBM.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from STUNNER047.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from STUNNER047.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from GOLDEN_SAIIBER.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from GOLDEN_SAIIBER.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from LADY WRITER ☾.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from SHANEGHOUL.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from MICHAELDERBESTE2.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CURE★PERSONA.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from HAYBURNER.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from HAYBURNER.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BAN MANAPHY.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from VALENTLNE.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from HUMANDISASTER.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from HUMANDISASTER.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from MARCOASD.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from SQURTLEONYOURPUFF.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from TEHTAYTEH.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from TEHTAYTEH.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from KENNY.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from LADY WRITER ☾.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CT0WN.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CHERMAL.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from MRSOUP.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from MICHAELDERBESTE2.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from MARCOASD.
  • Missing 3 Pokemon from HUMANDISASTER.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from XBOSSARUX.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from ICE YAZU.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CT0WN.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from TOXIN BOOST.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from ITZADELTA!.
  • Missing 3 Pokemon from HOLLYDAY.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from VALENTLNE.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from Y-ROCKO.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CURE★PERSONA.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BEATSBLACK.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CURE★PERSONA.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from STUNNER047.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from GASTALIES ♥.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from MRSOUP.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CHUVA DE PERERECA.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from YIMB.


RBY PU Leads

Code:
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Leads                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Rapidash                |  200 |  42.19% |  42.50% |
| 2    | Arcanine                |   90 |  18.99% |  57.78% |
| 3    | Slowpoke                |   40 |   8.44% |  62.50% |
| 4    | Dragonair               |   29 |   6.12% |  65.52% |
| 5    | Poliwag                 |   15 |   3.16% |  40.00% |
| 6    | Gastly                  |   11 |   2.32% |  63.64% |
| 6    | Staryu                  |   11 |   2.32% |  36.36% |
| 6    | Electrode               |   11 |   2.32% |  36.36% |
| 9    | Graveler                |   10 |   2.11% |  70.00% |
| 9    | Drowzee                 |   10 |   2.11% |  40.00% |
| 11   | Omanyte                 |    9 |   1.90% |  55.56% |
| 12   | Machamp                 |    8 |   1.69% |  75.00% |
| 13   | Nidoqueen               |    6 |   1.27% |  66.67% |
| 14   | Seaking                 |    4 |   0.84% |  75.00% |
| 15   | Primeape                |    3 |   0.63% |  66.67% |
| 15   | Sandslash               |    3 |   0.63% |  33.33% |
| 15   | Weepinbell              |    3 |   0.63% |   0.00% |
| 18   | Magmar                  |    2 |   0.42% |  50.00% |
| 18   | Arbok                   |    2 |   0.42% |  50.00% |
| 18   | Vileplume               |    2 |   0.42% |   0.00% |
| 18   | Muk                     |    2 |   0.42% |   0.00% |
| 22   | Parasect                |    1 |   0.21% | 100.00% |
| 22   | Flareon                 |    1 |   0.21% |   0.00% |
| 22   | Tentacool               |    1 |   0.21% |   0.00% |
Teh also asked me to compile stats for each round and because I am supremely based, I did it.

Pioneer Round 1

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Nidoqueen          |  109 |  97.32% |  49.54% |
| 2    | Rapidash           |  100 |  89.29% |  49.00% |
| 3    | Staryu             |   49 |  43.75% |  42.86% |
| 4    | Seaking            |   47 |  41.96% |  55.32% |
| 4    | Omanyte            |   47 |  41.96% |  53.19% |
| 6    | Drowzee            |   45 |  40.18% |  53.33% |
| 7    | Vileplume          |   41 |  36.61% |  53.66% |
| 8    | Arcanine           |   36 |  32.14% |  50.00% |
| 9    | Fearow             |   32 |  28.57% |  53.12% |
| 10   | Magmar             |   29 |  25.89% |  37.93% |
| 11   | Dragonair          |   17 |  15.18% |  29.41% |
| 12   | Graveler           |   16 |  14.29% |  31.25% |
| 13   | Sandslash          |   15 |  13.39% |  33.33% |
| 14   | Machamp            |   13 |  11.61% |  53.85% |
| 15   | Pinsir             |   12 |  10.71% |  66.67% |
| 16   | Abra               |   11 |   9.82% |  72.73% |
| 17   | Electrode          |    7 |   6.25% |  28.57% |
| 18   | Slowpoke           |    6 |   5.36% |  83.33% |
| 19   | Gastly             |    5 |   4.46% |  60.00% |
| 19   | Onix               |    5 |   4.46% |  60.00% |
| 21   | Primeape           |    4 |   3.57% |  50.00% |
| 21   | Weepinbell         |    4 |   3.57% |  50.00% |
| 23   | Parasect           |    2 |   1.79% |  50.00% |
| 23   | Poliwag            |    2 |   1.79% |  50.00% |
| 23   | Lickitung          |    2 |   1.79% |   0.00% |
| 23   | Scyther            |    2 |   1.79% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Magneton           |    1 |   0.89% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Flareon            |    1 |   0.89% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Arbok              |    1 |   0.89% |   0.00% |
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from GASTALIES.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BT89.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BT89.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from TOXIN BOOST.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from YIMB.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CATCHMYCHUB.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from HUMANDISASTER.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from NICOLE7735.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from ARA.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from ROYZIN.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from FREEDOM'S COST.


Pioneer Round 2

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Nidoqueen          |  105 |  90.52% |  46.67% |
| 2    | Rapidash           |   98 |  84.48% |  45.92% |
| 3    | Staryu             |   60 |  51.72% |  56.67% |
| 4    | Arcanine           |   48 |  41.38% |  60.42% |
| 5    | Omanyte            |   47 |  40.52% |  51.06% |
| 6    | Drowzee            |   44 |  37.93% |  56.82% |
| 6    | Seaking            |   44 |  37.93% |  43.18% |
| 8    | Vileplume          |   31 |  26.72% |  32.26% |
| 9    | Fearow             |   29 |  25.00% |  48.28% |
| 10   | Graveler           |   22 |  18.97% |  45.45% |
| 11   | Machamp            |   15 |  12.93% |  60.00% |
| 11   | Sandslash          |   15 |  12.93% |  53.33% |
| 13   | Pinsir             |   14 |  12.07% |  50.00% |
| 13   | Abra               |   14 |  12.07% |  28.57% |
| 13   | Magmar             |   14 |  12.07% |   7.14% |
| 16   | Dragonair          |   13 |  11.21% |  61.54% |
| 17   | Slowpoke           |    8 |   6.90% |  87.50% |
| 17   | Weepinbell         |    8 |   6.90% |  62.50% |
| 19   | Gastly             |    7 |   6.03% |  57.14% |
| 20   | Arbok              |    5 |   4.31% |  40.00% |
| 21   | Lickitung          |    2 |   1.72% | 100.00% |
| 21   | Scyther            |    2 |   1.72% |   0.00% |
| 21   | Onix               |    2 |   1.72% |   0.00% |
| 21   | Electrode          |    2 |   1.72% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Magneton           |    1 |   0.86% | 100.00% |
| 25   | Shellder           |    1 |   0.86% | 100.00% |
| 25   | Flareon            |    1 |   0.86% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Pidgeot            |    1 |   0.86% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Poliwag            |    1 |   0.86% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Seadra             |    1 |   0.86% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Primeape           |    1 |   0.86% |   0.00% |
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from GANGSTA SPONGEBOB.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from COLLECTORELY.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from TEHTAYTEH.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CHERMAL.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from NICOLE7735.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from MICHAELDERBESTE2.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BIG YELLOW SSBM.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from I♥FOXGIRLS.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from MAKI'S FOX.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from FREEDOM'S COST.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from STUNNER047.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from LONDON13.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from MISTER TIM.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from SIFICON~.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from YAZUWU.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from YAZUWU.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BEATSBLACK.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BEATSBLACK.
  • Missing 3 Pokemon from YIMB.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from LADY WRITER ☾.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from Y-ROCKO.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BAN MANAPHY.
  • Missing 4 Pokemon from SOMALIA.
  • Missing 4 Pokemon from LAMBOVINO.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BT89.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from FAATBATMAN.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from XBOSSARUX.


Pioneer Round 3

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Nidoqueen          |   82 |  89.13% |  48.78% |
| 2    | Rapidash           |   59 |  64.13% |  42.37% |
| 3    | Staryu             |   55 |  59.78% |  58.18% |
| 4    | Omanyte            |   43 |  46.74% |  53.49% |
| 5    | Seaking            |   42 |  45.65% |  40.48% |
| 6    | Drowzee            |   36 |  39.13% |  55.56% |
| 7    | Vileplume          |   25 |  27.17% |  48.00% |
| 8    | Fearow             |   23 |  25.00% |  30.43% |
| 9    | Abra               |   18 |  19.57% |  38.89% |
| 10   | Arcanine           |   17 |  18.48% |  47.06% |
| 10   | Graveler           |   17 |  18.48% |  35.29% |
| 12   | Dragonair          |   16 |  17.39% |  81.25% |
| 12   | Slowpoke           |   16 |  17.39% |  62.50% |
| 14   | Machamp            |   15 |  16.30% |  53.33% |
| 15   | Pinsir             |   14 |  15.22% |  64.29% |
| 16   | Sandslash          |   13 |  14.13% |  46.15% |
| 17   | Magmar             |   10 |  10.87% |  30.00% |
| 17   | Electrode          |   10 |  10.87% |  20.00% |
| 19   | Weepinbell         |    8 |   8.70% |  75.00% |
| 20   | Onix               |    5 |   5.43% |  60.00% |
| 21   | Muk                |    4 |   4.35% |  25.00% |
| 22   | Gastly             |    2 |   2.17% |  50.00% |
| 22   | Lickitung          |    2 |   2.17% |  50.00% |
| 24   | Arbok              |    1 |   1.09% | 100.00% |
| 24   | Magneton           |    1 |   1.09% |   0.00% |
| 24   | Shellder           |    1 |   1.09% |   0.00% |
| 24   | Poliwag            |    1 |   1.09% |   0.00% |
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from SQURTLEONYOURPUFF.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from SQURTLEONYOURPUFF.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from I♥FOXGIRLS.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from MARCOASD.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BIG YELLOW SSBM.
  • Missing 3 Pokemon from BIG YELLOW SSBM.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from STUNNER047.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from STUNNER047.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from GOLDEN_SAIIBER.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from GOLDEN_SAIIBER.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from LADY WRITER ☾.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from SHANEGHOUL.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from MICHAELDERBESTE2.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CURE★PERSONA.


Pioneer Round 4

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Nidoqueen          |   63 |  90.00% |  44.44% |
| 2    | Staryu             |   49 |  70.00% |  53.06% |
| 3    | Rapidash           |   44 |  62.86% |  50.00% |
| 4    | Omanyte            |   32 |  45.71% |  43.75% |
| 5    | Drowzee            |   28 |  40.00% |  53.57% |
| 6    | Fearow             |   22 |  31.43% |  50.00% |
| 7    | Dragonair          |   20 |  28.57% |  35.00% |
| 8    | Pinsir             |   19 |  27.14% |  63.16% |
| 8    | Arcanine           |   19 |  27.14% |  42.11% |
| 10   | Vileplume          |   15 |  21.43% |  60.00% |
| 11   | Graveler           |   14 |  20.00% |  64.29% |
| 12   | Machamp            |   13 |  18.57% |  46.15% |
| 13   | Seaking            |   12 |  17.14% |  50.00% |
| 13   | Slowpoke           |   12 |  17.14% |  33.33% |
| 15   | Gastly             |    9 |  12.86% |  55.56% |
| 16   | Weepinbell         |    7 |  10.00% |  42.86% |
| 16   | Abra               |    7 |  10.00% |  14.29% |
| 18   | Poliwag            |    5 |   7.14% |  60.00% |
| 18   | Sandslash          |    5 |   7.14% |  40.00% |
| 20   | Magmar             |    3 |   4.29% |  66.67% |
| 21   | Lickitung          |    1 |   1.43% | 100.00% |
| 21   | Tentacool          |    1 |   1.43% |   0.00% |
| 21   | Arbok              |    1 |   1.43% |   0.00% |
| 21   | Primeape           |    1 |   1.43% |   0.00% |
| 21   | Scyther            |    1 |   1.43% |   0.00% |
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from HAYBURNER.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from HAYBURNER.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BAN MANAPHY.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from VALENTLNE.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from HUMANDISASTER.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from HUMANDISASTER.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from MARCOASD.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from SQURTLEONYOURPUFF.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from TEHTAYTEH.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from TEHTAYTEH.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from KENNY.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from LADY WRITER ☾.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CT0WN.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CHERMAL.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from MRSOUP.


Pioneer Round 5

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Nidoqueen          |   70 |  83.33% |  45.71% |
| 2    | Staryu             |   57 |  67.86% |  49.12% |
| 3    | Rapidash           |   54 |  64.29% |  44.44% |
| 4    | Omanyte            |   38 |  45.24% |  57.89% |
| 5    | Seaking            |   32 |  38.10% |  56.25% |
| 6    | Drowzee            |   28 |  33.33% |  46.43% |
| 7    | Fearow             |   25 |  29.76% |  36.00% |
| 8    | Arcanine           |   21 |  25.00% |  33.33% |
| 9    | Dragonair          |   18 |  21.43% |  55.56% |
| 10   | Pinsir             |   17 |  20.24% |  58.82% |
| 10   | Machamp            |   17 |  20.24% |  52.94% |
| 12   | Vileplume          |   15 |  17.86% |  60.00% |
| 13   | Slowpoke           |   14 |  16.67% |  50.00% |
| 14   | Gastly             |   12 |  14.29% |  41.67% |
| 14   | Graveler           |   12 |  14.29% |  41.67% |
| 16   | Electrode          |    8 |   9.52% |  50.00% |
| 17   | Abra               |    7 |   8.33% |  71.43% |
| 17   | Poliwag            |    7 |   8.33% |  42.86% |
| 19   | Weepinbell         |    5 |   5.95% |  60.00% |
| 20   | Lickitung          |    4 |   4.76% |  25.00% |
| 21   | Magmar             |    3 |   3.57% |  33.33% |
| 21   | Sandslash          |    3 |   3.57% |  33.33% |
| 21   | Flareon            |    3 |   3.57% |  33.33% |
| 24   | Arbok              |    2 |   2.38% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Primeape           |    1 |   1.19% | 100.00% |
| 25   | Parasect           |    1 |   1.19% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Shellder           |    1 |   1.19% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Muk                |    1 |   1.19% |   0.00% |
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from MICHAELDERBESTE2.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from MARCOASD.
  • Missing 3 Pokemon from HUMANDISASTER.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from XBOSSARUX.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from ICE YAZU.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CT0WN.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from TOXIN BOOST.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from ITZADELTA!.
  • Missing 3 Pokemon from HOLLYDAY.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from VALENTLNE.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from Y-ROCKO.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CURE★PERSONA.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BEATSBLACK.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CURE★PERSONA.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from STUNNER047.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from GASTALIES ♥.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from MRSOUP.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from CHUVA DE PERERECA.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from YIMB.


SM OU

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Nidoqueen          |   32 |  94.12% |  46.88% |
| 2    | Staryu             |   30 |  88.24% |  50.00% |
| 3    | Omanyte            |   24 |  70.59% |  50.00% |
| 4    | Drowzee            |   15 |  44.12% |  46.67% |
| 5    | Rapidash           |   14 |  41.18% |  50.00% |
| 6    | Fearow             |   11 |  32.35% |  36.36% |
| 7    | Slowpoke           |   10 |  29.41% |  50.00% |
| 8    | Pinsir             |    9 |  26.47% |  55.56% |
| 9    | Vileplume          |    8 |  23.53% |  50.00% |
| 9    | Machamp            |    8 |  23.53% |  50.00% |
| 11   | Dragonair          |    7 |  20.59% |  42.86% |
| 12   | Seaking            |    5 |  14.71% |  80.00% |
| 12   | Gastly             |    5 |  14.71% |  60.00% |
| 14   | Abra               |    4 |  11.76% |  50.00% |
| 14   | Magmar             |    4 |  11.76% |  25.00% |
| 16   | Graveler           |    3 |   8.82% |  66.67% |
| 16   | Arcanine           |    3 |   8.82% |  33.33% |
| 18   | Poliwag            |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 19   | Sandslash          |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 19   | Weepinbell         |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from ROYZIN.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from MONAI.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from CT0WN.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from TEHTAYTEH.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from LEON CROMWELL.
 
Last edited:

Volk

Demonstrably alive.
is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Alright, time for some exciting updates about RBY PU!

First, RBY PU is officially challengeable on Pokemon Showdown! You will no longer need to use the challenge command to play the tier. Additionally, you can now more easily separate your teams (NU players rejoice!).

Second, we now have Sample Teams! You may find these Sample Teams in the OP of this thread. Thanks to TehTayTeh, Ema Skye, Ctown6, nicole7735, and chub for their contributions. If you would like to propose a sample team, reach out to me in the RBY Discord.

Finally, the Pioneer PU Tournament will be moving into the final bracket stage next week. Good luck to all the competitors!

Cheers!
 

Ema Skye

Work!
Pioneer is wrapping up and so I figured I'd share a VR to get some discussion there going.

my-image(8).png

S:
:nidoqueen: Still queen of the tier all these months later. Trades very well against nearly the entire meta and has a flexible moveset to hit everything. EQ/Blizzard/Fire Blast are mandatory, but Thunderbolt, Substitute and Counter are all good options for the last slot to improve specific matchups. Should realistically be on every team.

A+:
:fearow: Could reasonably see this as number one because of its revenge killing abilities. Outsped only by Rapidash, Fearow acts as a strong speed ceiling in the tier and boasts the strongest Hyper Beam in the tier (5% stronger than Machamp's). Its a phenomenal partner for Nidoqueen as its two best checks (Pinsir and Machamp) can't deal with Fearow well at all.

:pinsir: Great lead due to strong MUs vs other good leads (such as Dragonair). Slash is consistently powerful and Seismic Toss covers Gastly, Graveler and Omanyte. Bind, Submission and Hyper Beam all have merits for the rest of the moveset. Is pretty much the only reason why Queen runs Fire Blast. Good matchup vs Machamp too.

:machamp: One of the bulkiest mons in the tier, Machamp is the best Nidoqueen check (aside from Fire Blast burns) and is generally fairly difficult to switch into outside of Pinsir. It mostly operates without STAB (Low Kick/Bslam/HBeam/EQ) and so it doesn't hit quite as hard as 130 atk suggests, but paraslam into Hyper Beam is a devasting wallbreaking combo for it.

A:
:staryu: Once suggested as #2 in the tier, Staryu drops a bit due to lacking the well-roundedness of the mons above it. Twave+Recovery is always good, and it always walls Seaking. Outspeeds Nidoqueen which is also huge for it (Surf should always be ran).

:dragonair: Incredible lead. Spreads para and pivots like nothing else. Led to the rise of lead Pinsir. AgilWrap can just win games on its own sometimes and Blizzbolt is good rounded coverage. Very limited defensively though and struggles navigating around Nidoqueen.

A-:
:drowzee: Best mon with a sleep move, Drowzee is a consistently strong support option. Its a consistent paralysis spreader that deters Nidoqueen from coming in due to Psychic. Has a good Staryu matchup and Hypnosis can win games when it lands. Speed is its main flaw, though its bulk is often just enough to take a hit and try sleeping something (its typically 3HKOed).

:rapidash: Speed ceiling in the meta. Its best value is outspeeding Fearow and it also covers Pinsir. Fire Spin sometimes wins games. Walled by Omanyte/Graveler and struggles with Slowpoke, Seaking and even Gastly, and so its not as difficult to deal with as the A+ mons.

:gastly: Quite possibly the best lead due to its matchups vs Pinsir and Dragonair. Night Shade is consistent damage, and Psybolt is good neutral coverage as well. Hypnosis is RBY sleep and so can win games when it lands. Obviously has to be fearful of Nidoqueen but it can chip a weakened one. Can be good in the back as well due to its coverage.

B+:
:graveler: Fearow counter is always helpful. Better also vs Pinsir and Machamp due to higher physical bulk than Omanyte. Rapidash matchup can be shaky due to burns but you generally win it too. Also struggles vs Staryu and Dragonair.

:seaking: consistent physical attacker with a decent Nidoqueen MU if it lacks Thunderbolt. Walled by Staryu and lacks the raw power of the A+ mons and Rapidash's speed.

:omanyte: Graveler with a better Rapidash matchup (it runs Rest) and a worse Pinsir/Machamp one. Does this one role better than nothing else in the meta but is very one-dimensional.

B:
:abra: Strongest Psychic in the tier and a great speed tier to boot. Nothing wants to switch into it except Drowzee. Needs a Fearow counter. Struggles a bit with Staryu, Dragonair and Drowzee as its a dead mon if it gets paralyzed.

:slowpoke: Did quite well in the tour as a lead. Doesn't really care about paralysis and applies its own freely. Harder to pull off vs the PT leads. Good Drowzee switchin.

B-:
:weepinbell: Sleeper that breaks rocks and offers PT against paralyzed mons. Has limited defensive value but some teams struggle switching into it.

Unranked:
:arcanine::magmar: The most frequent discussions all tour were about how to place the fires. DoubleFire was popular early in the tour but was quickly exploited by the rise of Staryu, Omanyte being everywhere and Graveler becoming common. Waters also became more commonly used. Magmar might be better due to SToss or Cray letting it break Graveler or Omanyte, but neither is generally worth running due to the increased weakness to Nidoqueen when either stacks checks with Rapidash.

:vileplume: It is the most consistent sleeper but generally doesn't do much afterwards. It hits like a wet noodle.

:poliwag: Fastest sleeper and Amnesia makes it very swingy, but its the definition of inconsistent.

:sandslash: Good matchups vs a lot of the tier but doesn't hit hard enough and has a low speed tier that make it frustrating to use. Probably the best unranked mon.

:electrode: With enough pressure on Nidoqueen, this could find a place eventually in the tier. It just sucks that every team has a counter to it guaranteed, and especially if they also have Graveler.
 

Teh

the saint
is a Pre-Contributor
my-image (6).png


Since I got eliminated I figured I would post my personal VR. Once the ranking period starts I'll be submitting this. DM me on Discord if you have any questions.

I lied.
my-image (5).png
There are some takes that could age horribly in the future maybe but I'm willing to accept that.
 
Last edited:

Hayburner

WHAT A POGGER CURRY!
is a Tiering Contributoris a Past SCL Champion
my-image (3).png

I definitely enjoyed my team in this tier, so I just want to post some thoughts about building and how I approached this tier along with my VR.
My first approach was similar to how a lot of people saw the tier early, with fires being the go to strategy. The main difference I saw between my own and what other people were using was Graveler>Omanyte. I basically started with the idea of staryu drowzee graveler as the glue core to support rapidash nidoqueen and then your choice of last for the "standard build," while toying with a couple early more offensive structures that I tweaked later. In my first games I brought the double fire and dragonair teams from the ones seen below built day 1.
1673734776897.png

I mostly just tweaked these for my next set against Mana, because I had built all 5 with him and didn't want to use the exact teams. I just replaced machamp on the poliwag team with pinsir, and replaced machamp with arcanine on the gastly team. There isn't really much to say about either of the first 2 sets or any reason to give imports, as the meta has changed a lot and neither were worth talking about anyway. At that point I had clinched with 2 activity wins, so I went about trying to see what else worked and experimented, and used a couple ideas in my first set vs yazu.
https://pokepast.es/df7a398bcdc2020a I think this team had a lot of promise in the water spam meta, and it basically carried leru to top 8, but at this point weepinbell probably isn't worth using, and I never really found any success with it in the first place. https://pokepast.es/555350b835b5d9a7 This team in g2 was an early version of me trying to make phys spam work with pinsir and fearow, but I'm not really a big fan of sleepless with rapidash lead. It can be tweaked in a lot of different directions to improve which is what I did later. Game 3 I wanted to confirm if Arcanine actually was good or not, and determined, it was not.
This leads into playoffs with my first set vs Ema Skye. This was when I figured out how to actually fit all the physical spammers on 1 team, and made this.

https://pokepast.es/b219f3205b20aa66
1673735718805.png

I think this is my personal favourite team in the whole meta, and I used it in every playoff set. I've been asked many times what pinsir lead does, and like it doesn't really do anything the team just doesn't have a lead so I tossed it there so I could fit all of pinsir machamp and fearow lol. It can just punch a hole early if it gets a favourable matchup. I'm using omanyte because it's too fire weak otherwise, and drowzee compresses sleep and twave which this team appreciates a lot.

https://pokepast.es/661653bf234641a0
1673735814783.png

Game 2 I used this, I just replaced the arcanine with magmar from an earlier team and it kinda works? It's very reliant on pushing offensive pressure as there's no rock so you rely on the fires to beat all the phys attackers. I used this with poliwag lead as well later but it's the same thing just more fishy. I think magmar benefits most from a fast paced team because if it can force good damage on a rock your dash and fearow are super opened up. I'm not sure if this team is really the best way to go about it but it worked this round I guess.

Next was Leru, who was using my weep team and original dragonair team the entire tour.

https://pokepast.es/8187534095b1dc10
1673736093502.png

He brought dogshit so nothing I brought really mattered but I didn't use this team anywhere else so I figured I'd post. It was just a more modern attempt at agility dragonair with pinsir being the best mon to force early damage in my opinion, so i just tried to fit it together based on that. One of the main reasons I didn't use this later was because of fear of abra lead which caught on, and kinda fucks this team up if u get crit or miss hypno. Other than that its pretty solid. Game 2 I just brought the weepinbell team again.

Yazu

https://pokepast.es/da0984f0aa952d09
1673736432480.png

I decided to make my own Abra lead team, and ended up here. I figured pinsir would be a good partner since abra is basically guaranteed an early twave unless it's facing a phys lead, and gastly provides the sleep in the back while giving a midground into normal moves since it's easy to wear oma down, and I wanted oma instead of grav in case of dash lead. Fearow closes because it's fearow. I used this into chuva as well but with gastly lead since he kept spamming shit that was good into abra lead and it ended up winning both times so it's probably good.

https://pokepast.es/9a2d4559741a9846
1673736896330.png

I also hadn't used a single dnair lead yet, so I decided to give it a shot. I'm not a huge fan of it because of gastly lead existing, but it can definitely reward you pretty hard in the right matchup. I came up with this after playing some random games vs teh and he had brought this but with staryu > dnair, and abra as lead. I mentioned that I had made almost the exact same team but with dash lead day 1, and it got me thinking about how to revamp the psyspam + grav + seaking idea, because they complement each other quite well, and ended up here.

G3 I used the magmar team again and it very did not work. Midmar. G4 was pinsir champ fearow, not much to say there.
Game 5 I just didn't feel like using whatever team I had prepped, I don't even remember what it was, and used the seaking team again but with abra lead. Complain about the robbery all you want but there was luck throughout that entire series that I was also on the other end of, and plenty of other chances in that game for me to luck that's just how the tier works.

I didn't end up actually building anything new for chuva, just reworked old teams and used teams from previous playoff rounds because I was busy and didn't have any big ideas to bring. For teams I haven't talked about:

https://pokepast.es/40fe13b6cad9ea87
1673737481574.png

I went back to the day 1 version with machamp but with gastly lead, it's probably a little better than the magmar version by virtue of not having magmar on it.
And finally..

https://pokepast.es/b535521d2c82b993
1673737583923.png

This team from day 1 still works lol. I think it's gotten a lot better with recent shifts as well. I think it easily could've won the game, but again, hax all through the series, it's not like I can complain, I got plenty of luck earlier. This team is pretty self explanatory, the drowzee star graveler core is pretty solid into the normal spam stuff around and agiliwrap is agiliwrap. Dash lead gives you the pivot opportunities with spin into drowzee or just attack whatever's in front of you.

Anyway, thanks all involved with the tour for the fun time, Vileplume bad, Onix worse, ggs everyone
 

Attachments

Volk

Demonstrably alive.
is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
I collected some data after Pioneer, the RBY PU Tournament, and I am happy to announce that RBY PU has its first official VR!

This VR was made from contributions from top placers in the tournament (in no particular order): Ice Yazu, stunner047, TehTayTeh, Hayburner, nicole7735, Ctown6, chub, Ema Skye, Torchic, chuva de perereca, royzin, and MrSoup. Thank you for your submissions!

A few caveats before we get into this VR:

1) This was made entirely through me aggregating data and drawing conclusions on where lines should be drawn between tiers and sub-tiers. This means they may be a bit subjective. I will publish the raw data later so you can all tell me how wrong I was to draw the lines where I did. This sentence will become a link when I do publish the raw data.

2) The line between B- and C+ is not necessarily the end of PU and the start of ZU. The exact cutoff is up to the discretion of the PU (and ZU, I guess) community.

3) I didn't get a chance to reach out to the following players for VR submissions:
fatBatman
Lady Writer
Leru
MichaelderBeste2
I apologize for not reaching out to you all sooner, but I was busier than I expected. If any of you would still like to send me a VR, you are eligible to do so. I will update this post to reflect your submissions as soon as I can. If you wish to contribute, please send your VRs to me as soon as possible!

Without further ado, the new PU VR:
RBY_PU_VR_Winter_2023.png


Pinsir and Fearow actually tied for the #2 spot by average. The spot was awarded to Pinsir, as it had a higher median rating.

In addition to being ranked lower than all Pokemon above, the Pokemon in D and F Rank were included in the VRs of notably fewer people. Most of the Pokemon in D Rank were ranked by around half the pool while every Pokemon in F Rank was ranked by three or fewer people. If a Pokemon was ranked even once, it is shown here.

Coming Soon!

Thank you to all who contributed! Cheers to a fruitful year for RBY PU!
 
I collected some data after Pioneer, the RBY PU Tournament, and I am happy to announce that RBY PU has its first official VR!

This VR was made from contributions from top placers in the tournament (in no particular order): Ice Yazu, stunner047, TehTayTeh, Hayburner, nicole7735, Ctown6, chub, Ema Skye, Torchic, chuva de perereca, royzin, and MrSoup. Thank you for your submissions!

A few caveats before we get into this VR:

1) This was made entirely through me aggregating data and drawing conclusions on where lines should be drawn between tiers and sub-tiers. This means they may be a bit subjective. I will publish the raw data later so you can all tell me how wrong I was to draw the lines where I did. This sentence will become a link when I do publish the raw data.

2) The line between B- and C+ is not necessarily the end of PU and the start of ZU. The exact cutoff is up to the discretion of the PU (and ZU, I guess) community.

3) I didn't get a chance to reach out to the following players for VR submissions:
fatBatman
Lady Writer
Leru
MichaelderBeste2
I apologize for not reaching out to you all sooner, but I was busier than I expected. If any of you would still like to send me a VR, you are eligible to do so. I will update this post to reflect your submissions as soon as I can. If you wish to contribute, please send your VRs to me as soon as possible!

Without further ado, the new PU VR:
View attachment 486872

Pinsir and Fearow actually tied for the #2 spot by average. The spot was awarded to Pinsir, as it had a higher median rating.

In addition to being ranked lower than all Pokemon above, the Pokemon in D and F Rank were included in the VRs of notably fewer people. Most of the Pokemon in D Rank were ranked by around half the pool while every Pokemon in F Rank was ranked by three or fewer people. If a Pokemon was ranked even once, it is shown here.

Coming Soon!

Thank you to all who contributed! Cheers to a fruitful year for RBY PU!
It warms my heart seeing Machamp being able to find a home. And it's not an embarrassingly low tier like with the old Pokémon Perfect's 6U, which put Machamp in the same tier as Kabutops... And fucking Butterfree.
 
Last edited:

phoopes

I did it again
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Two quick things:

I collected some data after Pioneer, the RBY PU Tournament, and I am happy to announce that RBY PU has its first official VR!
I hesitate to call this an “official” VR, as the reqs were only based off one tournament/there’s no council yet that is making decisions on who gets reqs. I think this is a good starting point though, and I think I will ask for some community input on a council shortly. We’re definitely on our way to making things as official as they can be, though!

2) The line between B- and C+ is not necessarily the end of PU and the start of ZU. The exact cutoff is up to the discretion of the PU (and ZU, I guess) community.
For consistency’s sake, I’m going to make the ruling that the line between B- and C+ is the cutoff… for now. There doesn’t appear to be a “Slowbro tier,” there’s a clear line. So to keep things in line with other tiers, unless there’s significant push from PU and/or ZU players, let’s go with B-/C+ as the cutoff line. Everything above the line is PU, everything below is ZU.

Thanks for your work on this Volk, and to everyone who submitted a VR and/or has made a positive contribution to this fun tier!
 
I collected some data after Pioneer, the RBY PU Tournament, and I am happy to announce that RBY PU has its first official VR!

This VR was made from contributions from top placers in the tournament (in no particular order): Ice Yazu, stunner047, TehTayTeh, Hayburner, nicole7735, Ctown6, chub, Ema Skye, Torchic, chuva de perereca, royzin, and MrSoup. Thank you for your submissions!

A few caveats before we get into this VR:

1) This was made entirely through me aggregating data and drawing conclusions on where lines should be drawn between tiers and sub-tiers. This means they may be a bit subjective. I will publish the raw data later so you can all tell me how wrong I was to draw the lines where I did. This sentence will become a link when I do publish the raw data.

2) The line between B- and C+ is not necessarily the end of PU and the start of ZU. The exact cutoff is up to the discretion of the PU (and ZU, I guess) community.

3) I didn't get a chance to reach out to the following players for VR submissions:
fatBatman
Lady Writer
Leru
MichaelderBeste2
I apologize for not reaching out to you all sooner, but I was busier than I expected. If any of you would still like to send me a VR, you are eligible to do so. I will update this post to reflect your submissions as soon as I can. If you wish to contribute, please send your VRs to me as soon as possible!

Without further ado, the new PU VR:
View attachment 486872

Pinsir and Fearow actually tied for the #2 spot by average. The spot was awarded to Pinsir, as it had a higher median rating.

In addition to being ranked lower than all Pokemon above, the Pokemon in D and F Rank were included in the VRs of notably fewer people. Most of the Pokemon in D Rank were ranked by around half the pool while every Pokemon in F Rank was ranked by three or fewer people. If a Pokemon was ranked even once, it is shown here.

Coming Soon!

Thank you to all who contributed! Cheers to a fruitful year for RBY PU!
Question: With Arcanine Being Mediocre in the tier, will it end up dropping to ZU, or will it just languish in ZUBL?
 

phoopes

I did it again
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Hi, me again. There's been some... feedback on this in Discord to say the least, lol. What I said above:

For consistency’s sake, I’m going to make the ruling that the line between B- and C+ is the cutoff… for now. There doesn’t appear to be a “Slowbro tier,” there’s a clear line. So to keep things in line with other tiers, unless there’s significant push from PU and/or ZU players, let’s go with B-/C+ as the cutoff line. Everything above the line is PU, everything below is ZU.
I think this would have been the right decision in an ideal world. However, it has come to my attention that not everyone was aware of "what to do" exactly with their VRs. Namely, some people did not order/rank within tiers, just placing the Pokemon kind of wherever within the tiers. Idk what Volk did exactly here (and this is not me passing the blame, don't take it that way please), but if he considered order when doing the aggregates then that would have affected the VR. Secondly, not everyone was aware of the standard of B-/C+ being the cutoff line for ZU. This means that, kind of similar to what happened with Slowbro in the OU/UU cutoff, some people felt that there are Pokemon that ended up in ZU on this VR that "should" be considered PU, and they would have ranked them as B- instead of C+ or something like that if they had known that was going to happen.

With that addressed, based off what I was reading in the Discord, I think community consensus is that we should redo the VR. Volk is currently taking some time away, so I'm going to ask that the same people who were asked to submit for the previous VR submit to me (please use Smogon PM) their lists with the following in mind:

1. Rank each Pokemon in order from top to bottom. You are not required to rank any one specific Pokemon, just rank what's viable. So your number one ranked Pokemon would be the most viable/best Pokemon in the PU metagame and your last ranked Pokemon would be the worst Pokemon that at least has some viability.
2. Mark tier cutoffs in your ranking, as well as where you would determine the PU/ZU cutoff to be in your rankings.
3. You can either give me a numbered list or use something like Tiermaker. If you use something like Tiermaker, please make sure they're in order within ranks.

Tagging people who are qualified to submit VRs via the kickoff tournament:
chub
chuva de perereca
Ctown6
Ema Skye
fatBatman
Hayburner
Ice Yazu
Lady Writer
Leru
MichaelderBeste2
MrSoup
nicole7735
royzin
stunner047
TehTayTeh
Torchic

I know it's annoying to have to do another one, but we're trying to get this right this time so if y'all could please submit a VR to me via Smogon PM under the above stipulations sooner rather than later I would very much appreciate that.

Now, for how this affects the ongoing ZU Tournament:

I don't really want to be like, "not my tour, not my problem," but I will say that I would feel bad making the decision for the ZU Tournament especially in a complicated situation like this. I will copy/paste this portion of the post in the relevant threads so it's more visible but with how I see it, there are a few options for the ZU tournament:

1. Keep the old list for the duration of the tournament. This way no one has to learn/adjust to a new meta mid-tournament. With everything going on, I think this might be the best option (but that's just personal opinion).
2. Take the VR that was posted by Volk for now and run with that the rest of the tournament. It is a community VR, even if it's in dispute right now. I don't particularly care for this option personally since people have to learn a completely new meta mid-tournament, but some have expressed support for this afaik
3. Scrap the VR that was posted by Volk and wait for the new and improved version to come out sometime soon (hopefully), then use that whenever it's posted. Personally, I feel like the same as above, because learning a new meta mid-tournament sucks, but some have expressed support for this afaik
4. Use the VR that was posted by Volk until the new and improved version comes out, then use that one instead. While this might be the most faithful to what is "truly" PU and what isn't (and even that's up for debate), I think making people learn three metas for one tournament would really suck and I would not recommend it.
5. Something else I'm not thinking of.

Ultimately, I think it's up to the hosts of the ZU Tournament to decide what to do. Sorry that this is a weird situation to put you in, but I think I laid out the options pretty well with reasonable (personal) opinions on what to do. Maybe do a poll of the ZU community/tournament players to see what they think? I know the next round is coming up soon but hopefully this can be resolved quickly. Sorry again, feel free to reach out to me with any questions/comments/concerns and I'll do my best to answer them.

Thanks for reading!
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top