OU RBY OU Viability Rankings

S: :tauros: / :snorlax:
S-: :chansey:
A: :alakazam: / :starmie: / :exeggutor:
A-: :zapdos: / :gengar: / :cloyster: / :jynx: / :rhydon:
B: :slowbro: / :jolteon: / :moltres:
C: :lapras: / :articuno: / :victreebel:
D: :persian: / :golem: / :hypno: / :porygon:

hardest part of this for me was the a tier. i think any order of zam mie egg is understandable. i put zam top cause i think it's the most busted, but mie has more defensive utility and egg is more immediately threatening + has sleep. very hard to order.

gengar is just more versatile than jynx. has more "counterplay" in bad lead mu, better sleep sack & defensive utility, and the gar vs jynx lead mu is so lopsided compared to, say, gar vs zam.

moltres is a fat threat with high bs factor. much harder to wall than articuno. being eq immune shouldn't be slept on either, even with its rock slide weakness.
 
I don't agree with characterising Jolteon as an inferior version of Zapdos. The extra speed and lack of Ice weakness make a huge difference and let it be useful in many more ways than the more specialised Zapdos. It's usable as a lead and is imo one of the more threatening ones (volatile is the word that springs to mind). Its superior speed means it's both a better revenge killer than Zap and it requires different support. It also depends less on its bulk to sweep (Zap is likely to be trading hits with stuff like Tauros), which combines with its lack of Ice weakness to make it more effective midgame as a water type check.
For the bottom tier, Golbat should be the 4th worst. It’s terrible but provides EQ immunity in some theoretical ParaFuseSpam team. Ditto is obviously largely trash yet I can’t rank it bottom. It at least provides scouting in 4 of your opponent’s moves, and by your opponent’s response to it, it can be possible to deduce other move-sets. For Seaking and Seadra, there are just a myriad of other options outclassing both. It’s extremely difficult to justify either.
I strenuously object to anything other than Ditto as the worst pokemon in rby. Scouting honestly isn't that valuable imo given how many pokemon run functionally the same set every time and Ditto isn't even good at it anyway with how hard it is to bring it in and Transform without dying. Even then, you're sacrificing a teamslot for something that may gain info, but won't improve your game state. Having used Ditto extensively I can attest that its primary use in practice is as dedicated death fodder.

I also disagree with ranking Seadra alongside it, Agility is enough to differentiate it from other Waters (Cuno still overshadows somewhat though and Agility isn't a great niche) and its damage output is significantly better than Seaking's. Still a bad pokemon but doesn't belong with Butterfree/Golbat/Seaking imo
 
I strenuously object to anything other than Ditto as the worst pokemon in rby. Scouting honestly isn't that valuable imo given how many pokemon run functionally the same set every time and Ditto isn't even good at it anyway with how hard it is to bring it in and Transform without dying. Even then, you're sacrificing a teamslot for something that may gain info, but won't improve your game state. Having used Ditto extensively I can attest that its primary use in practice is as dedicated death fodder.

I also disagree with ranking Seadra alongside it, Agility is enough to differentiate it from other Waters (Cuno still overshadows somewhat though and Agility isn't a great niche) and its damage output is significantly better than Seaking's. Still a bad pokemon but doesn't belong with Butterfree/Golbat/Seaking imo
Yes I know in many cases gleaning information in this way will not be that valuable, which is why Ditto's still bottom tier. But it's still something unique nothing else can do, which helps save it from 'absolute worst' rating in my criteria.

Seaking also gets Agility so Seadra's not winning any extra points there. It only adds weight to the argument that they belong together. You could make the argument for one over the other, though both are pretty much equally bad so it doesn't really matter. Personally I would value a bit higher Seaking's slightly better mixed attacking potential (e.g. with TailWhip has a better shot at cheesing through Para'd Mie/Zam/Chans - Pokemon that will inevitably switch in to wall either. *I know Seadra gets Leer but has lower attack to exploit it). However with Seadra's better Special and HPump I could understand someone championing the other way round.
The biggest problem with these Agility Waters is just what real justification do you have for running either? Starmie is right there as the most blatantly superior option with it's naturally high speed tier, not to mention coverage, TWave and Recover. You already mentioned Articuno as a superior Agility user which hits largely the same targets as these 2, harder. Neither of Seaking and Seadra are really ever going to achieve anything notable with Agility, or without. Zapdos is the main thing that really shines with Agility because of its mixed attacking sweeping potential, while sometimes having the potential to get off a TWave on Tauros or something else valuable before it goes down.
 
Yes I know in many cases gleaning information in this way will not be that valuable, which is why Ditto's still bottom tier. But it's still something unique nothing else can do, which helps save it from 'absolute worst' rating in my criteria.

Seaking also gets Agility so Seadra's not winning any extra points there. It only adds weight to the argument that they belong together. You could make the argument for one over the other, though both are pretty much equally bad so it doesn't really matter. Personally I would value a bit higher Seaking's slightly better mixed attacking potential (e.g. with TailWhip has a better shot at cheesing through Para'd Mie/Zam/Chans - Pokemon that will inevitably switch in to wall either. *I know Seadra gets Leer but has lower attack to exploit it). However with Seadra's better Special and HPump I could understand someone championing the other way round.
The biggest problem with these Agility Waters is just what real justification do you have for running either? Starmie is right there as the most blatantly superior option with it's naturally high speed tier, not to mention coverage, TWave and Recover. You already mentioned Articuno as a superior Agility user which hits largely the same targets as these 2, harder. Neither of Seaking and Seadra are really ever going to achieve anything notable with Agility, or without. Zapdos is the main thing that really shines with Agility because of its mixed attacking sweeping potential, while sometimes having the potential to get off a TWave on Tauros or something else valuable before it goes down.
I mean I'm not disputing that Transform is unique, it's just that Ditto is so bad that it can't even do what it sets out to do. Not to mention that unique doesn't mean worthwhile, which is a problem when it costs a whole teamslot.

I'm not as fussed on Seaking vs Seadra since I've only used Seaking, but suffice to say I value having average raw power (HPump) over being a mixed attacker that's bad at both physical and special attacks. I also don't buy that TWhip is a difference maker, as that seems like a poor use of a turn- you'd probably get just as far attacking.

Edit Enigami: booooo, watch me rank everything D+ to talk about them in this thread :P
 
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Maybe too many subdivisions but order matters up to C+ where it gets a little dicey, and D where at which point it doesn't matter at all at the end of the day

S+
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The only reason I rank Snorlax above Tauros is due to Hyper Beam Lax. A single Body Slam crit from Snorlax can turn the game wide open, especially when it has a powerful finishing move in Hyper Beam.

S
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Tauros is Tauros, it crits and does a lot of damage, its quite fast, and can win games outright with good luck.
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Kaz made a statement during invitational, showing how Chansey can be dropped if you want it to. That being said, its Chansey; between Sing and whatnot, Chansey is S rank along with Tauros.

A+
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Starmie is a cut above Egg or Zam, as it's bulky enough to eat Tauros Body Slam + Hyper Beam, Psychics from Zam, and can wall mono-ice Chansey. TBolt allows it to beat other Starmie (and thus I believe is virtually a necessity for back Mie) as well as Slowbro. Ice moves at lead are scary as well

A
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Ranking Egg vs. Zam is though, but I feel like Egg gets a lot done. It can Sleep, paralyze, boom, and Psychic is really strong. Not only this, but with SurfBolt, Mega Drain (and even Stun Spore + Mega Drain) offer some respite vs. the offensive power of Surf Starmie.
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Zam is incredibly strong with a high crit rate and 33% Psychic drops. Back Zam can tear through endgame (seen here:https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1613858400-sex0cla9jylexrya6a8bdofgtdrda8ypw), although I feel like lead Zam is a little undewhelming for anything other than using it vs. Gar lead to get a double to Egg/Jynx/Gar.

A-
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Typically this is the tier I always found Zapdos & Rhydon together in, but given recent trends I had to drop Zapdos to right below but in a separate tier. Rhydon's EQ is insane, he walls Zapdos, Sing Stoss Chans, Rest can wall mono-Lax, and Leer can put additional pressure on Lax/Cloy that otherwise wouldn't be there.

B+
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Zapdos might be falling short in recent times, but it's still a potent end game sweeper and can be greatly effective against Triple Psychic teams.
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Cloy has boom, makes EQ Lax look like lackluster, and if Tauros isn't TBolt then Cloy can do a decent job at nullifying it. You might have a Starmie, maybe a Zam, but 1 of those 8 Blizzards can be all too devastating, and I've found myself even having trouble in the midgame vs. Cloy with Egg + Zap teams.
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Gar is not as consistent as Jynx (and Jynx already isn't overly consistent), but it has pretty astonishing win rates. It's more prominent than previous years, and Psychic Gar makes the Gar vs. Gar opening extremely erratic. That being said, it can make using a mono-Lax really awkward and the same thing for TBolt Tauros, even if the Gar is asleep.
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Rounding out the B+ tier is of course Jynx, who sleeps and then sometimes freezes, but Gar win rate is just quite impressive. (Also walls mono-Ice Chansey)

B
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Slowbro can literally just win the game, or literally not do a single thing beyond maybe a T Wave, but the fact that the former can be said is impressive enough.
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If Zap is down bad, Jolteon is down horrendous, but I don't think that's enough to put it closer to C+ than B+, so I think bottom of B is where it sits. Jolt crit rate can result in lunacy
C+
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Tanky + sorta strong + walls Cloy + Confuse Ray/Sing/Freeze can be bullshit last outs
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The birds, Articuno is better cause it can freeze its check, Moltres relies on hitting a 75% move (for the most part)
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Only reason I don't think I can rank them higher is because of the currently high prevalence of Gar, but I'm a fan of both, particularly Persian who can potentially put in a lot of work in the mid game if you can catch a well timed Lax Rest turn. Obviously both hate back Mie
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Being a Pokemon who's soul purpose is to shut down (in my opinion) the S+ rank Pokemon to preserve your more viable 5 is enough for me to put Porygon in C+ instead of C.

C
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I think Vic has decent potential vs. Mie Don builds (duh), but if you can use a gameplan that involves in paralyzed that back Mie it can really shine. Inaccurate move syndrome is really dire though
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Walls electric + boom, I really don't think its D, sorta like my Jolteon ranking

C-
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Electric immunity + SD is pretty good
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SD + massive attack stat
:kangaskhan: Sorta Tauros, but slower
:venusaur: Sleep + SD + Razor Leaf
:hypno: Psychic + T Wave; Hip once pitched a 4 Psychic team (Mie Egg Zam Hypno), and on a team like that I think Rest is potentially better to account for a Psychics vs. Psychics end game.
:kabutops: Slash + normal resist
:gyarados: actually surprisingly strong with Hydro Pump + Hyper Beam and TBolt for chipped Mie
:raichu: T Wave + electric that can hit Rhydon
:raticate: essentially Persian but worse, but really funny if you can hit all of your Super Fangs + Body Slam crits
:poliwrath: Hypnosis + Amnesia
:electrode: T Wave + Crits + Boom
:machamp: Super effective vs. S tier Pokemon + Counter
:clefable: T Wave + Sing
:dugtrio: crits
:omastar: normal resist

:dodrio: Weak to BlizzBolt + only Normal always walled by Rhydon
:ninetales: :charizard: only niche is negated by the fact double switching exists + useless besides niche
:arbok: only on full wrap, weak to Psychic
:golduck: Poliwrath w/o Hypnosis
:hitmonlee: rolling kick is potentially funny/Counter
 

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BeeOrSomething

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I haven't played rby ou as much as I would like but I thought why not post my thoughts on the VR after playing rby in 6 out of 7 weeks in Academy Premier League (decently high level discord tournament) and making it to Top 24 in RBY Majors. I'm only ranking mons I've used though so no golem or gimmicky setup sweepers.
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:tauros: The best pokemon. Snorlax is incredible midgame but Tauros has always been there to just crush end games or bail me out of situations where I was behind due to hax or being outplayed and it's just such an amazing game winner. It does things snorlax could never do, largely thanks to its great speed tier.
:snorlax: Best mid game pokemon no doubt. Hyper beam reflect lax is just so good at sniping kills from high percentages and busting through cloyster and chansey. All the other attacking options are still really good too, all you really need is body slam reflect and rest. PhysLax is inconsistent but when it goes off, man does it dominate games. Not really too fond of amnesia rest lax but the boom variant is a cool chansey lure and I think the gimmicky ones with shit like thunderbolt are pretty funny and surprisingly useful too.
:chansey: Tauros and snorlax are simply just better. Also chansey is droppable as seen from certain players like Kaz. However, a chansey is still a chansey.

:starmie: The defensive profile is just so incredible and being able to mix and match coverage and have starmie function as either a lead or a back mon depending on your team's needs is just so amazing.
:alakazam: Zam is fucking nuts. This mon is actually so good holy shit. I basically never regret using it. The speed and special stat and incredible hax potential with crits, psychic drops, and full paralysis can be mindboggling. Amazing offensive monster that comes with the very useful benefit of checking a variety of opposing threats, especially sleepers. Also yeah sure zam often gets slept but that just means one of your other pokemon isn't slept and sometimes it can just bullshit through the sleeper with full para and misses and whatnot. Also that's really only lead zam, back zam is just even better.
:exeggutor: Great mon but I've just had more personal success with zam and the competition for sleeper role on a team disincentivizes using eggy slightly IMO. Also it's really slow and weak to ice.

:rhydon: I'm sure everyone knows this but rhydon is on the rise. Even with less zapdos, it still gets a lot of opportunities and just does so much damage, and when it crits it's ruinous.
:cloyster: Great (relative) answer to stuff like snorlax rhydon tauros and non-tbolt chansey, clamp is a really good move, blizzard does big damage, preys really effectively on a lot of teams like lead mie/zam + egg + filler (i.e. zapdos, rhydon). Boom is also always a nice trait for when you really need it or you can use it with little repercussion (i.e. lax dead and you need smth gone, etc). However, paralysis is always a bitch and starmie is more popular than ever. Hyper beam lax and tbolt tauros are also very very real and cloyster will always have consistency issues with inaccurate moves along with of course crits and para.

:zapdos: IMO it didn't fall off as bad as other people seem to think. Rhydon is popular but it's not in every game, and zapdos will still perform wonderfully in those games. Even with rhydon, you can still hide zapdos until rhydon is gone or basically gone and go from there. Zapdos can also enable double switches if both it and rhydon are alive and relatively healthy which can force progress if you play well. Rhydon is still a massive pain though, punishing any misplay massively and it shapes how you play so much in a decently constricting way, and there will always be some consistency issues.
:jynx: Jynx can be either the most bullshit mon ever, or the most bullshit mon ever. Depends on if you're viewing it from your pov or your opponent's. Sometimes it will land a sleep and freeze something or stick around all game and be an annoying piece of shit with rest. Other times it'll miss lovely kiss or get full para'd a bunch and just die without doing anything or it'll give your opponent a million opportunities to bring in tauros and whatnot. I think this placement is about fair. Enabling chansey to run a set that isn't sing is also quite nice.
:gengar: I've come around on this mon, up until recently I really hated it for how inconsistent it was but I think I just sucked ass at pokemon. Great defensive profile especially with more hyper beam lax and jynx, and sleep and boom are always good tools. Its tbolt is pretty strong too. However, zam and rhydon will always be there to plague it and it can't do much defensively if the opponent's snorlax has earthquake.

:jolteon: Overhated. I understand why people don't like it that much, but for me it's performed pretty well and IMO it's not really that dependent on the presence of zapdos. It absolutely appreciates the opponent having a zapdos for it to take advantage of but it can function fine without one. The speed/crit rate and good stats combined with rest for bullying chansey somewhat are great traits. This mon definitely depends a lot on the player's experience with it though, I will admit.
:slowbro: Jynx 2, but a sweeper rather than a sleeper. Sometimes it will get crit immediately or full para'd or exploded on, sometimes it autowins a game.
:lapras: Gonna be honest I haven't used this mon too much but I've faced it a decent number of times and it's pretty annoying to switch into. Very bulky too. Also lets you click thunder wave turn 1 without making you hate yourself which is always nice. Hella competition though and it's a magnet for bullshit since it's so slow and doesn't pack recovery.

:articuno: Good mon if the opponent doesn't have a cloyster and starmie is either absent or you can bullshit through it in some way with freeze or paralysis. Really bad if either of these are false though and the electric weakness blows.
:moltres: Articuno the second. Sort of. More inconsistent but it doesn't hate cloyster or lapras which is nice. Instead it hates slowbro and now it's weak to ice and starmie is even more of a pain.
:victreebel: Just like lapras, lets you click twave turn 1 which is awesome. Stab razor leaf + wrap is also quite cool. Back zam/starmie suck ass for it though and it's so frail. Gengar is also a massive pain if you don't click stun spore at the right time or get rid of it first.
:persian: Last time I used it I was worse at the game but w.e. Diet tauros that constricts teambuilding and hates paralysis and just taking damage in general. Can also feel lackluster at dealing damage. However, a diet tauros is still not that bad when the base is tauros.
:dragonite: Jynx the threequel. Sometimes you land every wrap, sometimes you get para'd and slammed by an ice move. However, unlike jynx it's an awful lead and unlike slowbro it has like no opportunities to switch into battle and it's even more rng reliant than slowbro. It's pretty funny when it just runs over an entire team though.
 
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vapicuno

你的价值比自己想象中的所有还要低。我却早已解脱,享受幸福
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Hi everyone,

Sorry for the late post - I don't have as much time this year to work on this so I'll refer you to the previous post for details and to the attachment.

S: :Tauros::Snorlax::Chansey:
A: :Starmie::Exeggutor::Alakazam:
B1: :Rhydon::Zapdos::Gengar::Cloyster::Jynx:
B2: :Slowbro::Jolteon:
C: :Lapras::Persian::Articuno::Victreebel::Moltres::Dragonite:
D: :Porygon::Golem::Kingler::Sandslash::Hypno::Kabutops:
E: :Kangaskhan::Poliwrath::Venusaur::Raichu::Raticate::Machamp::Clefable::Omastar:

The status of Lapras is up for debate - Lapras is actually quite distinct from the rest of C, as you can see from the dendrogram and dissimilarity matrix. It's ambiguous whether or not it should be its own tier - the line could be drawn in the dendrogram such that it is its own tier or part of C. This is quite unlike Slowbro from last year where the dendrogram was clearly indicating that it belonged in its own tier.

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phoopes

I did it again
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Thanks so much to vapicuno for taking the time to do this yet again! Much appreciated.

shiloh Amaranth and emma also helped me out in putting this together too so shoutout to them!

And of course a big thank you to our voters: shiloh Ctown6 Genesis7 marcoasd Gastlies Enigami HSOWA McMeghan Hayburner Gefährlicher Random spies chuva de perereca Serpi Kaz SaDiSTiCNarwhal kjdaas Mikon Lusch M Dragon Mako FriendOfMrGolem120

Criteria to vote was one or more of the following:
  • Played 5 games and won at least 2 in SPL XIV
  • Top 16 of RBY Invitational III
  • Top 16 of 2022 RBY Circuit
With this in mind we had 34 qualifiers, and the above 21 people voted. Here's the spreadsheet with how everyone voted (hopefully easier to read than last year's lol)

Thanks again to everyone mentioned! I'll update the OP shortly with the new VR.
 
My turn for personal VRs

Rhydon makes some sets and mons signifigantly worse.

Slowbro haves a strong defensive profile which gives him good setup opportunities, still able to be haxxed.

Moltres Fire Spin is marginally underated. If your opponent haves limited options and Moltres is at +2 Speed Fire Spin haves pretty good odds of dropping Chansey and Starmie into ranges. Para on them also helps a lot for Moltres and Chansey eates Twave a lot, Starmie sometimes can't avoid it.

I believe in the currently ranked SD users. Golem can work on boom offense. Gyara and Hypno are basically barely good enough to be legit choices on certain teams in my opinion.

Most E Tier mons on the offical VR are ultra cringe. Raichu can have the good of the a better Rock/Ground matchup undone by Eggy. Omastar is in big danger against anything it likes using its typing against. Dodrio is just too fragile, rocks also eat it.
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can someone give me a tl;dr on why gengar is up so much? I remember gengar being like right above slowbro and that seems reasonable from my rby experience? have people started using structures that rely on Gengar as sole sleeper or something? are tauros/lax dropping eq? surely the rise of zam and starmie last few years cannot be good for gengar. i'm just pretty surprised to see him above cloyster and jynx.
 

gastlies

running up that hill
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People are using more body slam + reflect + rest + hyper beam lax to deal with starmie and cloyster, along with the occasional thunderbolt tauros (although much more rare). This are sets that gengar can just sit on during a game. Also double sleep is becoming more popular now and Gengar shines on double sleep teams since its sleep is pretty inconsistent so it likes having a backup sleeper. Also beats jynx who's been performing really well lately.
 
Bruh you're saying Gengar can't function as a sleeper without a better sleeper holding its hand

And I'M the based one :zonger:
It doesn't always need to put something asleep.

Being able to sleep a check or switching into something like mono normal Lax is really good. Its also a big risk if you switch in on Tauros and the Tauros stays in.
 

Hipmonlee

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VR submitters need to define the cutoff between OU/UU!

And, we have an interesting case here, with the ambiguity of Lapras. When you say Lapras is ambiguous, Vapicuno, how did its inclusion in C come to be? Because this could potentially be quite important in the case where Lapras is voted OU, since it would bring all of C with it, with our tiering rules as currently defined.
 

vapicuno

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If I understand correctly isn't Mie and Chansey's rank placement also ambiguous?
Yes Chansey could technically be S2 and Starmie could be A1 but it wasn't really as consequential as the Lapras thing and has a smaller difference in ward linkage so I didn't mention it.

Vapicuno, how did its inclusion in C come to be?
I actually mean that I don't think there's a default as to where Lapras lies. I just put it in C for convenience but it could well be treated like Slowbro's ?? tier last year.

I'm guessing that the dendrogram identified it as closer to C because some people ranked it lower than several mons in C (even Dragonite, the worst of them all), but people would mostly rate Lapras at most above Jolteon, rarely Slowbro.
 

Hipmonlee

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So, firstly, it would be good for the separation of tiers to be based on some objective measure, which I thought was the case, but your wording here suggest perhaps not entirely?

But, on that, I think with the way our tiering works now, I think the best idea is for us to err on the side of differentiation. If you can say "Lapras is actually quite distinct from C" its important that our tiering reflects that.

Otherwise we have the potential for Lapras to be voted OU, but for it to carry Dragonite into OU with it, since the tiering is assuming that there is no way to delineate Lapras from Dragonite.
 

vapicuno

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So, firstly, it would be good for the separation of tiers to be based on some objective measure, which I thought was the case, but your wording here suggest perhaps not entirely?
The objectivity of the method lies in quantifying the distance between groups of pokemon (tiers/subtiers), but some extra inference and maybe subjectivity is needed to interpret more ambiguous cases.

We have gone a long way from the beginnings of this method where we drew tier demarcations from eyeballing ranking plots to having a code that spits out tier groupings on demand. It's evolved from something of an experimental science to a definite procedure, which works for 95% of mons, but where the results are less clear, we have to return to science, i.e. look at all the evidence, which may be conflicting, and find the convincing narrative.

One way of drawing conclusions is the dendrogram, where the subjectivity lies in determining the threshold - think of it as drawing a horizontal line across the dendrogram and reading the branches below as tiers.

Here's an example dendrogram from my home tier. It's pretty intuitive to draw a horizontal lines at the level of the written letters to represent full tiers (and another line right that cuts right above the purple subtier, to demarcate the subtiers).
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Another way to make conclusions is the ranking plot. This decision is supported by the most primitive method of quantitative tiering, with tiers defined by (mostly) non-overlapping error bars (and subtiers defined by the mons that fit into the height of the average error bar in that region).
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Yet another way is to look at dissimilarity matrix, and find the group that the Pokemon overlaps with the most.

If you look at Lapras you will see that
1. There is a way to draw the tiering threshold that would either include or exclude Lapras while leaving all other tiers intact. (Supports independence or C)
2. The dendrogram suggests a huge overlap with Jolteon but not Slowbro (recall that a condition for being in the same tier is interchangeability, which doesn't apply here to Lapras and Slowbro). It does however suggest decent overlap with the rest of C. (If Lapras has to belong to a tier, supports C more than B2).
3. But, the ranking plot shows that Lapras' error bar doesn't cross into Persian or Jolteon. In fact, it can be considered closer to Jolteon. (Supports independence or maybe even B2)

Under these contradictions, I went to look a bit deeper at the data. It looks like there were 3 people who didn't rank Lapras onwards, which when combined with the people who did rank Lapras lower, gave the impression that there were more people who didn't look at Lapras favorably than there might actually be. IIRC the code gives equal preference to all unranked mons.(I'm on my phone so unable to check this point).

Under all this, I feel a bit more convinced that Lapras belongs in its own independent tier.
 
Seeing how RBY OU keeps evolving as a metagame is super interesting. You have the same 12-15 pokemon who individually have had access to the same moves for 20+ years and yet you go from the Alakazam Reflect Chansey days to the full Reflect Victreebel days to the Sing Chansey Freeze days, each one of these metagames having their specific dynamics.

Unlike the previous X years, I have actually played the game on and off this last year (granted, ladder only, no tours, but I’ve got a lot of games done trying to reach this damn 25 victory ladder streak) so I’ll give my opinion about a couple things:

I agree this pokemon is #5 after Starmie but its 50% usage sounds low. Probably a matter of preference but building feels so much
easier with Exeggutor on your team because of its package (ground and psychic resistance + sleep + explosion + paralysis support if needed). I get you would prefer a fast Psychic or else but whenever I drop him I always feel like I'm opening a lot of corners to face hard match-ups. This is without mentioning that Egg is basically the only Rhydon check in the game (Starmie can only do so much), a Pokemon so threatening that I would voluntarily have high Exeggutor usage just to not be labelled as a “Rhydon-weak” guy because I would rather face Zapdos / Cloyster with Egg than Rhydon without Egg.

I have seen mentions of Sleep-less Egg sets and although it sounds super interesting I wonder what sets are you guys running? I would imagine Stun Spore / Psychic / Explosion / Normal move or Mega Drain but this still feels like too much of a 4MSS set to justify a Sleep move drop (you have to get sleep somewhere else) and you really do not want to drop Stun Spore as otherwise you have very few options against unparalysed recovery users.

For me personally this last year has all been about Jynx. Back when I actively played tournaments (2016-2018) I considered Jynx to be close to an unmon. I probably loaded it less than 5 times in 2.5 years and when I did it was always in some specific counter teams (typically with Gengar lead + back Jynx to play against Jynx spammers: Explode Gengar T1 and get the sleep T2 to be 5-4 immediately). The reasons for that were the following:
  • It did not spread any paralysis which was the go-to approach at that time. The freeze approach was just too slow and anytime you were clicking Blizzard with a paralysed Jynx it meant you had a 93.25% chance of accomplishing nothing that turn (= not freezing), thus falling behind against the typical “Paralyse everything fuck every other status” strat.
  • Sleep blocking against the always present Exeggutor was an essential component of the metagame and Jynx was just completely garbage at it. Starmie was the best at this role since no one played Mega Drain and whilst Alakazam could also be pressured by Double-Edge / Hyper Beam it had an instant recovery move alongside the ability to paralyse Exeggutor, outspeed it, and get back on track. On the other hand, once your Jynx clicked Rest on turn 5 or 6 the dominos started to fall.
  • Jynx dittos (Alakazam dittos sucked as well but you had other options than just play coinflip)
For those reasons I stayed away from Jynx and was also genuinely happy whenever I faced it. However these “Full Thunder Wave” days are long gone and the tables have absolutely turned. Jynx has been one of my go-to picks lately. There are a lot of reasons to that, and the main one imo comes from how much space Sing Chansey is taking.

Sing Chansey usually means mono-Ice Beam. If your opponent is running that set, he most likely won’t paralyse you on the first turn because handling Jynx will be too much of a pain. This means you’ll get to play an unparalysed Jynx more often, which greatly improves its matchups:
  • Stronger against Zapdos and Cloyster (two threatening sweepers) as well as not letting Rhydon pick you apart so easily
  • Pressures sleeping Snorlax (78% to 3HKO)
  • Outspeeds Articuno, Victreebel, Dragonite, Lapras (also Moltres but just like Rhydon it's more about not getting picked on).
Overall, unparalysed Jynx stands way more ground for you against the metagame (a great trait for laddering!) and it helps you for something as simple as having your Blizzards 90% accurate instead of 67.5%. There are a lot of games where I ended up just switching out Jynx T1 against Alakazam/Starmie to keep it fresh (the extra health of not taking a Seismic Toss can also help against Tauros and Zapdos in some late game scenarios). The games being more opened nowadays simply gives more space for Jynx to shine.

And all of this is without mentioning the classic turn 1 sleep you can get if you want. Players are less rigid with who their sleep sack is compared to a few years ago. Sometimes you’ll see them taking sleep with Exeggutor or Sing Chansey because they have already landed sleep themselves instead of just being like “lead = sleepsack brr”. So you can just sleep their lead Starmie if you want and call it a day without giving them the opportunity to sleepsack their Sing Chansey or whatever.

Of course, Jynx is not Tauros. The positive traits have a price: Jynx dittos don’t feel good, and it’s the reason why I don’t like playing a team where Jynx is my only sleeper because losing that ditto, switching out, or facing Gengar makes you fall behind. Therefore, I always pair it with a secondary sleeper. Mostly Exeggutor, because it’s an exploder. I like exploding early on Chansey if I can (makes your special attackers – such as Jynx – more threatening) and having Jynx + Exeggutor means that if your opponent catches the Explosion with his sleeping pokemon it’s not that bad because you can always sleep something else with Jynx.

I know no part of this long rant I just wrote is new nor are players learning anything from it but I just echo Amaranth’s sentiment seeing Jynx ranked this low. I am honestly surprised to see people rank Jynx below Gengar or Cloyster.

I don’t know if I’m not too high on Cloyster or if I don’t like how I see some players using it. It’s super threatening when unparalysed because it has great speed and some clear favorable match-ups as well as the Explosion button against the things it’s less comfortable against, but on the other hand so many times I see him played as the automatic Snorlax switch-in that ends up paralysed and spending its entire time restlooping, erasing its potential and allowing Zapdos to come-in and whatnot. To me Cloyster is two things:
  • An offensive Pokemon that has more opportunities to get in than say Victreebel or Persian thanks to its bulk
  • An additional support against normals in a similar sense as Starmie (you'll go against them endgame but switching into them midgame is eh)
One last “back in my day” fact: I actually played Cloyster a bunch in 2017-2018 (when it was very rare) and I think I clicked Clamp less than 5 times. This move is ass and is mostly a desperation comeback move. Clicking it mid-game against Chansey or a paralysed Starmie makes no sense as the risk of eating Thunder Wave or Thunderbolt is not worth that pseudo U-turn momentum. Call me crazy but I like Blizzard / Hyper Beam / Rest / Explosion as you can snipe Alakazam and Chansey in some scenarios. I’m playing Cloyster offensively at the end of the game anyway so I don’t care that I can’t chip efficiently at Lapras or whatever. I know not having Clamp makes the HBeam Snorlax match-up worse but I don't want to click Clamp anyways lol.

Overall I’m not a huge Cloyster player (although I respect it a lot in the builder but I have like 90% Starmie usage anyway) because the teams it’s good in don’t really fit with me. Also playing Cloyster dittos is annoying as shit.

I have messed around with Dragonite. It’s actually a great paralysis spreader as players usually freak out when they see him and you just Thunder Wave whichever precious Pokemon they’re sending as their answer. Starmies dropping Blizzard more and more means you can switch in peacefully on Surf and get that Thunder Wave in. The problem with Dragonite (alongside the fact that dragon is an awful typing) is that it needs like 5 or 6 moves to do everything you want it to do. I feel like Thunderbolt is almost mandatory to make it threatening against the typical responses (Starmie and Cloyster). I have mostly played Thunder Wave / Thunderbolt / Surf / Wrap but there’s definitely more room in the lab. Dragonite probably does not have a very high ceiling though as its limitation are blatant when you’re playing him against good players. It can always sleep and wake up against Starmie late I guess.

Their main niche to me is Agility, as otherwise Cloyster is just easier to play than both of them (it even has the partial trapping move). They are good in themselves but I would not consider them worth the additional effort for an important game. As to which one is better, Articuno's bad matchups suck less but Moltres makes a better use of Agility thanks to Fire Spin. At gunpoint I’d probably pick Articuno.

These would be my rankings, I did not post them beforehand because I didn’t feel legitimate (I can’t remember when was the last OU tournament I’ve played rofl) but you can consider this an outsider’s point of view.

S :

A :

B :

C :

D :


Even though I wrote a love letter to Jynx, I’m ranking Rhydon above it because it’s just too offensively threatening especially in this low-Egg era. The everlasting Tauros match-up is probably the main reason it's not ranked even higher.

Thanks a lot Vapicuno for your work and to the RBY community for keeping this game very much alive !
 
Seeing how RBY OU keeps evolving as a metagame is super interesting. You have the same 12-15 pokemon who individually have had access to the same moves for 20+ years and yet you go from the Alakazam Reflect Chansey days to the full Reflect Victreebel days to the Sing Chansey Freeze days, each one of these metagames having their specific dynamics.
[...]

Thanks a lot Vapicuno for your work and to the RBY community for keeping this game very much alive !
Cool to see you around, still contributing. Interesting stuff, I can echo most things. It's a good starting point to get into the most controversial picks: Exeggutor vs Alakazam and the Zapdos/Gengar/Cloyster/Jynx train.

I'll start things off by saying that it's getting harder and harder to rank stuff. The criteria we're using are making all of the difference in my opinion. Players know what they're talking about, however we see huge differences. Granted, some players are great using certain pokemon and might have flaws when using other ones (yeah, Cloyster comes to mind), but we all know what these monsters do.
Starmie vs Chansey is an example: Kaz and me ranked it as third, I'm quite sure we know what Chansey does and the other guys know what Starmie does. Basically, Chansey can switch into almost anything, helps RestLax a lot and it also has Sing; on the other hand Starmie is arguably the best lead and one of the scariest pokemon late in the game.

I agree on Exeggutor's usage being low. Alakazam is great as well: speed is very important and not having weaknesses is nice. The problem I have with Exeggutor is that it's quite difficult for it to earn KOs, good part of its offense is forcing Snorlax out or using Explosion without getting predicted.
I like Exeggutor, but I can see why other players like Alakazam better: once Snorlax it's para'd it's really going to be painful sometimes.
Stun Spore / Psychic / Mega Drain/ Explosion has to be the sleepless moveset: anti- (Surf) Starmie stuff. Something else will use a sleep move: Sing Chansey, and possibly Gengar too (in the same team).

Jynx takes a lot of benefit from anti-leads having a hard time clicking TWave, landing on a possible Chansey switch in. That's always been an option, but nowdays Chansey is a way better status absorber because its teammates can switch into Snorlax way better than before (some Snorlax variants are at risk of being walled, while in the past chances of that happening were low) and Exeggutor + backup sleeper teams are rare.
Teams using SingIce Chansey don't want to TWave Jynx either, and most people want Ice Beam to fish for that freeze and for Rhydon. Settling for Seismic Toss is an option we'll see more often at some point and IMO players in the final stages of world cup were aware of this.
Jynx's success is highly related to it being the sleep fodder, and the Sing Chansey environment definitely helped a lot.

I still find it hard to rank Jynx higher than Cloyster or Gengar. Looking at stats, they have better win rates.
Cloyster is very good, especially if your opponent doesn't use Thunderbolt Tauros.
Gengar punishes the two greedy Snorlax's movesets: ReflectHB and IceLax (ReflectHB Snorlax is the devil's tool). Sure, Gengar needs to meet certain conditions to make progress (first and foremost, get Chansey and Rhydon out of the way), but it will steal time on EQ-less Snorlax variants. Very important role in the metagame, just like Cloyster. RBY OU is all about Snorlax, the pokemon who actually makes progress so you're not forced to bringing Tauros out or playing Chansey Ice Beam wars.
If anything, I can see Jynx being picked before Zapdos: granted, Zapdos is one of the most dangerous threats. What are the criteria though? It has a low usage and a low win rate. It's not a staple and it's not something you can easily splash on a team. It's a weapon you have to use in small amounts. So, this is how I have managed to make room for Jynx in my top 10.








If we say I have to go ahead because I just gave Jolteon a rank (and I don't use Jolteon) I'd make this bet:



Cloyster and Gengar have a major impact on how I would rank these.

My final thought is that we can spend all the time we want arguing over a certain rank, but the next tournament is definitely going to be about your Snorlax having the best moveset to make progress through teams. And I see a lot of Cloyster and Gengar. Chansey could finally be dropping Sing more often, making room for other moves.
 
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Ik my personal VR doesnt really matter but still think it'd be fun to post one


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(C+ and below are where mons that are UUBL or below go)

:snorlax:: In my opinion, Snorlax has been better than Tauros for quite some time now, and that opinion for me has just solidified with time. Snorlax is by far the best midgame wallbreaker and progress maker in the tier, with its ability to hit slightly harder than Tauros, Body Slam paralysis immunity, and its ability to shrug off hits with ease and either explode when it gets low or Rest the damage off later is what makes it stand out from other bulky Pokemon with Rest. It also has much more set variety than Tauros, being able to run Reflect + Rest, an all out attacker set with 4 attacks, and Amnesia, but I personally do not consider Amnesia Snorlax a good set, I also do think 3 attacks + Rest is worth exploring, as it lets Snorlax not get worn down over time. This variety of sets gives it alot more unpredictability than Tauros.

:Tauros: is the best late game cleaner and revenge killer in the tier, with a blazing 110 speed letting it outspeed most of the tier, and an amazing 21% crit rate let it come back from even the bleakest of situations. Nothing switches into Tauros with 100% safety, with even the best checks such as Cloyster fumbling to crits and Body Slam paralysis. Tauros's biggest (and only) problems are it being crippled by paralysis, and it having to play around getting hit to save itself for a potential Tauros ditto, which can decide entire games.

:Chansey: has possibly the widest set variety in the tier, being able to fit into any team and play a variety of roles within that team, with sets such as double status, SingBeam, BoltBeam, Reflect, Counter, and mono Seismic Toss. Without Chansey on your team you are leaving an incredibly wide hole in your team that can't really be filled by another Pokemon.

:Starmie: can fit on most teams and succeed in basically anything, whether it be absorbing sleep, breaking walls such as Snorlax ot overwhelming Chansey with Psychic special drops, or walling things itself such as Articuno and Moltress. It can also attempt to switch into Tauros if it is healthy, but it fumbles hard to a Body Slam or a paralysis.

:Exeggutor: is probably the scariest Pokemon to face 1v1, being able to inflict 2 status conditions on you, hit you with a deadly Psychic, or just wipe you out completely with Explosion. Its problems are being tough to maneuver, not being able to apply pressure properly when paralysed, and being one of the Pokemon with the hardest time to actually sleep something out of any OU Pokemon.

:Alakazam: has the strongest unboosted special attack in the tier, and an amazing 120 base speed and 23% crit rate, making it the second fastest Pokemon in the tier, its only problems include being crippled by paralysis, and its awful defense and HP stats, meaning its 2HKO'ed by most physical attackers in the tier and can be KO'ed by Tauros and Snorlax's Hyper Beam with even the slightest chip.

:Rhydon: can do an incredible amount for a team with its mere presense alone, with its ability being able to completely wall all electrics bar Raichu, namely Zapdos, who, without Rhydon to keep it in check, can run over unprepared teams in the lategame with ease. Its also one of the few Pokemon in the game to make use of Substitute, due to its Substitutes not being broken by Seismic Toss and Night Shade. Even though it spends limited time onfield, it makes a mark on any game its brought to.

:Cloyster: is the best and most reliable Tauros switch in, taking a mere 21% from Tauros's Body Slam, however it cannot completely switch into Tauros without worry, as it can fumble to either a crit or Body Slam paralysis. Its access to Clamp lets it pivot out of unfavorable matchups without forcing its ally to take a hit, it has an extremely bad matchup vs Starmie and Lapras though, being forced to switch out or Explode, its Clamp also gives opportunity for a sleeping Starmie to come in and either double switch or burn a sleep turn while Cloyster is forced to switch out.

:Jynx: in my opinion is the best and most reliable lead sleeper in the game, being the fastest lead sleeper with the reasonably accurate Lovely Kiss, and isnt scared out by Alakazam or Starmie, sadly after turn 2 its only hope of being useful to is to try absorb sleep for your team, its also incredibly physically frail, being OHKO'ed by Snorlax's Hyper Beam 46% of the time.

:Gengar: isnt a good lead in my opinion, due to being scared out by Alakazam and Starmie, and if it misses a single Hypnosis vs Jynx, its left in an incredibly uncomfortable situation, either having to try hit Hypnosis again or Explode on Jynx. In my opinion, Gengars value comes in its presense in the back of a team, being able to wall Snorlax sets that dont have Earthquake, and blow up with an incredibly powerful Explosion.

:Zapdos: is probably doing the worst it ever has been doing, being walled by the increasingly popular Rhydon, and can sometimes even fumble the matchups its meant to do well against, like Tauros getting a critical hit Blizzard, or not getting a double low roll Drill Peck vs Exeggutor and getting slept. It still has many great qualities though, being able to KO Chansey with little hassle, and being only 4HKO'ed by Snorlax's Body Slam.

:Lapras: fell to UUBL due to the meta being quite against it at the time, with electric types being more popular than ever and having problems breaking Chansey, but with electric types doing worse than they ever have before at this point, and mono Ice Beam Chansey also being quite popular, it can sit infront of Chansey and try break it for free now. It also has great matchups vs Snorlax and Tauros, being likely to 3HKO both of them with Blizzard while taking minimal damage in return.

:Jolteon: is not doing that well right now, but isnt as bad as people may think, being the fastest Pokemon in the entire tier lets it outspeed everything and hit them with a strong Thunderbolt, it also has an astounding 25% crit rate, setting it apart from Zapdos, who only has a decent base 100 speed stat and 19% crit rate. It also walls Zapdos with decent success, although it is no where no as good at walling Zapdos as Rhydon, as Jolteon can be paralysed and scared out by Tauros or Snorlax once its forced to Rest.

:Victreebel: is still pretty good in OU, despite falling from grace, it still has access to the amazing combination of Sleep Powder and Swords Dance, and is the only partial trapper with the ability to OHKO Rhydon with Razor Leaf, it still does amazingly against the old MieEggDon cores that it used to crush, although those cores arent as common nowadays as they used to be.

:Slowbro: is not good enough to call itself a true OU Pokemon in my opinion, although it has the ability to end entire games with a single boost, 9/10 games it will either be crit by a stray Thunderbolt and KO'ed while resting, or it will be forced into a Rest loop by Chansey/Alakazams Seismic Toss.
 

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