OU RBY OU Discussion Thread

[Sabelette]

Can we at least talk about the bad/niche mons used in SPL instead of arguing about what letter rank irrelevant fossils belong in? We’ve seen a Dewgong flop spectacularly in a winning situation after taking a crit paraslam from Rhydon, Hayburner just brought Kingler and Normal spam (Clef Pory Persian) since their team was out anyway, and on the more viable side of things we’ve seen Articuno, Moltres, Persian, and a fair few Lapras.

Given, as marcoasd said, the low variety in actual OU picks and the high centralization of mons (and to an extent sets) what do people think of some of these more fringe picks? It would make sense to me if Victreebel was picking up but we seem to be seeing a lot of things that don’t really like to see an opposing Starmie (from the low tier waters to Lapras and Articuno) in a time where Starmie is doing really well. Granted, most non OU mons are particularly bad vs Starmie.

Just for comparison I’m going to check last SPLs usage for some of the non OU stuff:

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Chansey            |  244 |  98.39% |  50.00% |
| 1    | Snorlax            |  244 |  98.39% |  49.18% |
| 3    | Tauros             |  238 |  95.97% |  48.32% |
| 4    | Starmie            |  180 |  72.58% |  48.89% |
| 5    | Alakazam           |  105 |  42.34% |  51.43% |
| 6    | Exeggutor          |  103 |  41.53% |  50.49% |
| 7    | Jynx               |   72 |  29.03% |  50.00% |
| 8    | Rhydon             |   69 |  27.82% |  46.38% |
| 9    | Gengar             |   52 |  20.97% |  50.00% |
| 9    | Cloyster           |   52 |  20.97% |  44.23% |
| 11   | Zapdos             |   39 |  15.73% |  38.46% |
| 12   | Jolteon            |   30 |  12.10% |  56.67% |
| 13   | Slowbro            |   13 |   5.24% |  69.23% |
| 14   | Lapras             |    4 |   1.61% |  50.00% |
| 14   | Moltres            |    4 |   1.61% |  50.00% |
| 14   | Persian            |    4 |   1.61% |   0.00% |
| 17   | Articuno           |    3 |   1.21% |  33.33% |
| 18   | Dragonite          |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |

for comparison here’s this SPL, discounting the current week where we saw Kingler and Dewgong and such:

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Snorlax            |  121 |  99.18% |  49.59% |
| 2    | Chansey            |  120 |  98.36% |  50.00% |
| 3    | Tauros             |  119 |  97.54% |  48.74% |
| 4    | Starmie            |   87 |  71.31% |  52.87% |
| 5    | Alakazam           |   67 |  54.92% |  58.21% |
| 5    | Exeggutor          |   67 |  54.92% |  46.27% |
| 7    | Jynx               |   34 |  27.87% |  39.71% |
| 8    | Rhydon             |   31 |  25.41% |  58.06% |
| 9    | Gengar             |   23 |  18.85% |  50.00% |
| 10   | Cloyster           |   20 |  16.39% |  52.50% |
| 11   | Zapdos             |   19 |  15.57% |  36.84% |
| 12   | Slowbro            |    6 |   4.92% |  41.67% |
| 13   | Lapras             |    4 |   3.28% |  25.00% |
| 13   | Jolteon            |    4 |   3.28% |   0.00% |
| 15   | Moltres            |    1 |   0.82% | 100.00% |
| 15   | Articuno           |    1 |   0.82% |   0.00% |

It looks to me at a glance more centralized at the top with the psychics dominating and Jolteon plummeting but the frequency of niche picks and the level of “niche-ness” seems to be up, even if a couple weird waters is a small sample size to look at. Anyway, just thought that was more interesting given SPL is on right now than discussing ladder jank, personally. I would love to know what’s going on in peoples minds when they look for advantages in these ways as opposed to mixing up sets.

 

[heavylobster43]

Can at least talk about the bad/niche mons used in SPL instead of arguing about what letter rank irrelevant fossils belong in? We’ve seen a Dewgong flop spectacularly in a winning situation after taking a crit paraslam from Rhydon, Hayburner just brought Kingler and Normal spam (Clef Pory Persian) since their team was out anyway, and on the more viable side of things we’ve seen Articuno, Moltres, Persian, and a fair few Lapras.

Given, as marcoasd said, the low variety in actual OU picks and the high centralization of mons (and to an extent sets) what do people think of some of these more fringe picks? It would make sense to me if Victreebel was picking up but we seem to be seeing a lot of things that don’t really like to see an opposing Starmie (from the low tier waters to Lapras and Articuno) in a time where Starmie is doing really well. Granted, most non OU mons are particularly bad vs Starmie.

Just for comparison I’m going to check last SPLs usage for some of the non OU stuff:

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Chansey            |  244 |  98.39% |  50.00% |
| 1    | Snorlax            |  244 |  98.39% |  49.18% |
| 3    | Tauros             |  238 |  95.97% |  48.32% |
| 4    | Starmie            |  180 |  72.58% |  48.89% |
| 5    | Alakazam           |  105 |  42.34% |  51.43% |
| 6    | Exeggutor          |  103 |  41.53% |  50.49% |
| 7    | Jynx               |   72 |  29.03% |  50.00% |
| 8    | Rhydon             |   69 |  27.82% |  46.38% |
| 9    | Gengar             |   52 |  20.97% |  50.00% |
| 9    | Cloyster           |   52 |  20.97% |  44.23% |
| 11   | Zapdos             |   39 |  15.73% |  38.46% |
| 12   | Jolteon            |   30 |  12.10% |  56.67% |
| 13   | Slowbro            |   13 |   5.24% |  69.23% |
| 14   | Lapras             |    4 |   1.61% |  50.00% |
| 14   | Moltres            |    4 |   1.61% |  50.00% |
| 14   | Persian            |    4 |   1.61% |   0.00% |
| 17   | Articuno           |    3 |   1.21% |  33.33% |
| 18   | Dragonite          |    1 |   0.40% |   0.00% |

for comparison here’s this SPL, discounting the current week where we saw Kingler and Dewgong and such:

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Snorlax            |  121 |  99.18% |  49.59% |
| 2    | Chansey            |  120 |  98.36% |  50.00% |
| 3    | Tauros             |  119 |  97.54% |  48.74% |
| 4    | Starmie            |   87 |  71.31% |  52.87% |
| 5    | Alakazam           |   67 |  54.92% |  58.21% |
| 5    | Exeggutor          |   67 |  54.92% |  46.27% |
| 7    | Jynx               |   34 |  27.87% |  39.71% |
| 8    | Rhydon             |   31 |  25.41% |  58.06% |
| 9    | Gengar             |   23 |  18.85% |  50.00% |
| 10   | Cloyster           |   20 |  16.39% |  52.50% |
| 11   | Zapdos             |   19 |  15.57% |  36.84% |
| 12   | Slowbro            |    6 |   4.92% |  41.67% |
| 13   | Lapras             |    4 |   3.28% |  25.00% |
| 13   | Jolteon            |    4 |   3.28% |   0.00% |
| 15   | Moltres            |    1 |   0.82% | 100.00% |
| 15   | Articuno           |    1 |   0.82% |   0.00% |

It looks to me at a glance more centralized at the top with the psychics dominating and Jolteon plummeting but the frequency of niche picks and the level of “niche-ness” seems to be up, even if a couple weird waters is a small sample size to look at. Anyway, just thought that was more interesting given SPL is on right now than discussing ladder jank, personally. I would love to know what’s going on in peoples minds when they look for advantages in these ways as opposed to mixing up sets.

Alakazam outperforming Eggy is noteworthy. Zam is just a consistent mon, and while he's not the most versatile pick with the most coverage options, his lack of weaknesses on the Special side and amazing Speed make him a consistent lead. Personally Zam is my favorite lead overall. Early-game Starmie is much freer for Chansey to come in on and heal up, whereas with Zam there's at least the possibility of haxing your way through a dented Chansey. Starmie also struggles to fit all the coverage it wants onto a moveset. Psychic + Blizzard means Jynx can Rest on you, not having Blizzard makes Eggy a pain, not having STAB hurts its issues with its already weak Special. Starmie in back lets you save it to come in when Chansey is down and Eggy has already gone boom, and still outspeeds Tauros while having decent physical bulk to be one of the better endgame options for stopping the bull rampage. Obviously lead Starmie is still very strong and viable as well, but lead Zam is such a splashable option that gets the job done.

 

[marcoasd]

This is a place for discussing anything related to ranking I guess, so I'll try to cover anything I can. Why not. I won't multiquote, but you'll find your answer.

Exeggutor isn't necessarily better than Alakazam because Rhydon is a threat: unstatused Starmie can switch into it. Not only that, Seismic Toss Chansey (even Reflect) is Rhydon's favourite prey and Alakazam hates to face it. I like Exeggutor but the current environment is good for Alakazam instead!
Gengar and Cloyster are definitely reasons to stay away from using IceLax, but I consider Surf Starmie to be reason number one: Snorlax is way easier to force out with special attacks than it used to be, which means Snorlax aren't getting stuck in dittos as they used to. We are still adapting to this.
Ice Beam hits Rhydon decently (nothing special, not even a 2HKO), but it's specific for Snorlax dittos: you can trust me, I invented that set.

Mixing up sets and making picks based on the state of the metagame and on your opponent is the best way to get an advantage safely. It's quite clear that players have assimilated this idea. RBY OU is a narrow place! Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
I've had multiple exchange of views through the course of the years on this subject, I belittled pokemon like Victreebel and Jolteon in times when people were asking for them to be B ranked - look where they are now. I supported Lapras (a long time ago) and Golem (an even longer time ago), look at them now. Troller supported Moltres, look at it now.
Moltres can be dangerous, you just can't use it or even reveal it at will though. Zapdos and maybe Slowbro are the only pokemon who share this negative trait and who can claim a place in OU.

Lapras was picked because it can threaten Starmie with Thunderbolt, while also doing other good things. It turned out to be ok, but Mega Drain Exeggutor is better at that. Lapras is more likely to sweep but it's still a bad sweeper due to a combination of factors and Exeggutor has Explosion.

To me, Victreebel is not being picked mostly due to unwillingness to build around it and bad reputation. Granted, Victreebel is inconsistent due to accuracy and multiple weaknesses. Alakazam and Gengar are off-putting.
A few years ago Victreebel was dominating in a similar situation (Starmie/Rhydon teams being common), but we used to trade Thunder Wave turn 1 and back Alakazam and Gengar were not this common so it was a different environment. Even with that being said, Victreebel can still win games with some setup and it will definitely surprise opponents.

Reflect Slowbro has a high ceiling, but it can fail really badly. It's a reasonable pick though.

Persian can do nice things, but it's too frail and it's walled by Gengar. Mostly, it's frail. One could make a case for it being better than special attackers at forcing Snorlax out, because switching into Slash is harder than switching into Psychic or Surf. Persian definitely has potential: it's a pick I'm not going to dismiss, but it's weak and it has a bad moveset. It won't get critical hits nor paraslams.
Kangaskhan learns Earthquake, but it has bad speed and special stats: it's outsped by relevant stuff and it suffers OHKOs on critical hits, even something like Cloyster will 2HKO. It's weak.

Kabutops is arguably the best Swords Dance user, which puts it roughly at D. It can be dangerous.
Aerodactyl is way worse than Porygon because Porygon has a serious moveset (even though not supported by stats) and it can switch into Snorlax and PP stall it (Hyper Beam can be dangerous, so this might be a good time for Aerodactyl but I'm not sure that is going to be enough).
Jolteon Cloyster used to be a solid core for a while, but it was basically kicked out of the scene by a few adjustments, consider that these pokemon have a higher power level and do the math.
Using Rest exposes you to free switches and multiple weaknesses, Aerodactly can't make up for that. If Kabutops is D, Aerodactyl should be lower because it's basically hoping for a wider setup and critical hits.
Omastar is even worse, resistance to normal moves is all it has.

 

[The Faz]

I want to try to figure out the answer to a paradoxical question: Why are the electrics (mainly Jolteon) struggling in a time when Starmie is doing better than ever? [...] Starmie usage is forcing Chansey to use Thunderbolt more often [...]. This is obviously great for Rhydon, which is why it's been doing so well this SPL. Snorlax running Hyper Beam more often (22.3% this SPL vs 17.2% last SPL) to punish Starmie and less Ice Beam (6.6% this SPL vs 11.4% last SPL) has also been great for Rhydon. [...] With all these metagame changes being great for Rhydon, we see that it has been doing amazing, with the second-highest winrate behind Alakazam. Rhydon's incredible performance has hurt Zapdos and especially Jolteon, since Jolteon's niche in being an electric type that also beats Zapdos is less meaningful in a metagame where Zapdos is less of a threat.

Is there space for Raichu in this meta configuration as an electric type that doesn't die to Rhydon?

Raichu Thunderbolt vs. Starmie: 194-228 (60 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Raichu Surf vs. Rhydon: 405-476 (98 - 115.2%) -- 87.2% chance to OHKO
Raichu Thunderbolt vs. Cloyster: 214-252 (70.6 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Starmie Blizzard vs. Raichu: 93-110 (28.7 - 34%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Raichu: 64-76 (19.8 - 23.5%) -- possible 5HKO

Raichu does have some problems against Eggy and Zam that Zapdos didn't due to the lack of Drill Peck (altho Raichu's HBeam does over half to Zam but I'm not sure if it's relevant). It does have a pretty nice speed tier of 100, tying with Zapdos and above Jynx. What do y'all think? Raichu is currently in D rank but could it rize to C and chill with Porygon and Golem?

 

[heavylobster43]

Is there space for Raichu in this meta configuration as an electric type that doesn't die to Rhydon?

Raichu Thunderbolt vs. Starmie: 194-228 (60 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Raichu Surf vs. Rhydon: 405-476 (98 - 115.2%) -- 87.2% chance to OHKO
Raichu Thunderbolt vs. Cloyster: 214-252 (70.6 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Starmie Blizzard vs. Raichu: 93-110 (28.7 - 34%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Raichu: 64-76 (19.8 - 23.5%) -- possible 5HKO

Raichu does have some problems against Eggy and Zam that Zapdos didn't due to the lack of Drill Peck (altho Raichu's HBeam does over half to Zam but I'm not sure if it's relevant). It does have a pretty nice speed tier of 100, tying with Zapdos and above Jynx. What do y'all think? Raichu is currently in D rank but could it rize to C and chill with Porygon and Golem?

Raichu is incredibly frail and doesn't always beat everything you'd expect. Low roll against Rhydon is depressing. It's hilarious when you Submission yourself into Chansey and die of recoil but leave Chansey at low HP. Raichu belongs in D because it kind of, sort of works, sometimes.

And realistically I do have to admit Porygon outclasses Aerodactyl hard against the high meta. Aero might have advantages against some random ladder mons like Sandslash and can catch people off-guard, but in a serious match Porygon is just better.

 

[marcoasd]

Is there space for Raichu in this meta configuration as an electric type that doesn't die to Rhydon?

On paper, Raichu is in a decent position right now. I have to admit you brought it up with good timing. So, what about cutting it down?

Raichu's Surf is something like 90% likely to KO Rhydon, that's not the problem. The actual problem is that each and every single one of its stats happen to be too low. Worst thing about Raichu is that it's slower than Tauros and it's going to be fodder after most attacks. Tauros trading two Body Slams in a ditto puts it around 40% or slightly more, so Raichu won't finish it with Thunderbolt.
Raichu's staying power is terrible, and that results in Thunder Wave actually being a bad move most of the time because you don't want to trade paralysis and trading Thunder Wave for damage doesn't look like a good deal either.
Raichu trades for roughly 50% of Snorlax's HP (unless it gets a critical hit), damage on Alakazam is similar (4hko) and it's not doing great against Chansey either. 4 moveslot syndrome is another issue: Thunderbolt, Surf, Hyper Beam and Thunder Wave are quite important, I would leave out specific moves (Submission and Seismic Toss).
I didn't even need to talk about Exeggutor, whose usage stat is higher than last SPL but still around 50% so let's give Raichu a pass.

Anyway, I have the feeling that you can squeeze something out of it. But it's a mission.

 

[heavylobster43]

On paper, Raichu is in a decent position right now. I have to admit you brought it up with good timing. So, what about cutting it down?

Raichu's Surf is something like 90% likely to KO Rhydon, that's not the problem. The actual problem is that each and every single one of its stats happen to be too low. Worst thing about Raichu is that it's slower than Tauros and it's going to be fodder after most attacks. Tauros trading two Body Slams in a ditto puts it around 40% or slightly more, so Raichu won't finish it with Thunderbolt.
Raichu's staying power is terrible, and that results in Thunder Wave actually being a bad move most of the time because you don't want to trade paralysis and trading Thunder Wave for damage doesn't look like a good deal either.
Raichu trades for roughly 50% of Snorlax's HP (unless it gets a critical hit), damage on Alakazam is similar (4hko) and it's not doing great against Chansey either. 4 moveslot syndrome is another issue: Thunderbolt, Surf, Hyper Beam and Thunder Wave are quite important, I would leave out specific moves (Submission and Seismic Toss).
I didn't even need to talk about Exeggutor, whose usage stat is higher than last SPL but still around 50% so let's give Raichu a pass.

Anyway, I have the feeling that you can squeeze something out of it. But it's a mission.

Raichu isn't gonna reliably take down a fully healthy Chansey either way, but running Submission means you can feasibly start fishing for crits/FP on a paralyzed Chansey at around 80%, whereas for Hyper Beam you need the Chansey to be down to 40% before reliably KOing. Also if Raichu KOs itself with Submission it ends the turn without Chansey healing, enabling a teammate to possibly finish the job. On the other hand, Hyper Beam is more generally useful and far more consistent, as not having that finishing punch against everything else hurts more than with most mons. Also be warned that Raichu is not at all a reliable stop to Zapdos because of its frailty and Zap's bulk. In general Raichu's too frail to take down much of anything without being left too weak to do anything else with any consistency, including stuff it has the advantage against. But it does match up well against a lot of meta builds, and if played well can force important trades to open up holes in your opponent's team. But it will feel like nothing more than death fodder at times as well, which is why it's D rank.

 

[Party B0y]

I'd like the communities thoughts on some bans for Gen 1 which I think would diversify the meta:

1. Reflect/Harden/Defense Curl is banned on Chansey and Snorlax.

I think banning the above would encourage more aggressive styles of play, making physical attackers like Kangaskhan, Dodrio, Persian more viable in addition to Tauros/Snorlax. It would also create opportunities for other Pokemon to act as special/physical walls i.e. Cloyster, Porygon, rock types, other reflect users.

2. Sleep inducing moves are banned on Jynx, Gengar, Exeggutor, Chansey, Hypno.

This would seriously nerf Jynx, but Gengar and Egg would still be viable. More importantly a bunch of UU pokemon would now have the opportunity to serve as sleep inducer. Specifically I'm thinking Parasect, Venusaur, Victreebel, Poliwrath.

3. Psychic is banned on Alakazam and Starmie.

Alakazam would still be a viable special wall but would have to resort to Psybeam for STAB. Starmie would only have surf/hydro pump for STAB. This should create space for poison/fighting types (Beedrill couldn't be OHKO'd by either), as well as provide an incentive to use alternative Psychic pokemon like Hypno/Mr. Mime.

4. Tauros cannot have Earthquake/Thunderbolt/Blizzard on the same set

Restricting Tauros' coverage to only one of the above moves encourages creative solutions to Rhydon, Exeggutor, Cloyster, Gengar. There are more opportunities for UU pokemon to act as sweepers i.e. Raichu, Persian.

I'm confident that the suggested changes above would shake up the meta. By creating more niches for UU pokemon other pokemon will also become viable as counters to them. Nerfing a few OU pokemon would be like cutting down a big tree in a forest to create space and light for new plants to grow.

I'd like to arrange a one off tournament with these rules to test them out, is anyone interested?

 

[Sabelette]

Zero interest in balancing by extreme complex bans personally, you may as well make a pet mod and just edit stats and movepools instead.

 

[marcoasd]

Raichu isn't gonna reliably take down a fully healthy Chansey either way, but running Submission means you can feasibly start fishing for crits/FP on a paralyzed Chansey at around 80%, whereas for Hyper Beam you need the Chansey to be down to 40% before reliably KOing.

We're talking about using Raichu at this specific time because Starmie and Rhydon are major targets. So, what's its role? Raichu is a late game cleaner who uses its speed and special attacks. We should build a team and playtest it a lot before telling exactly which moveset works best, or at least get stats about last remaining pokemon in the average RBY game. Starmie often is among the last ones standing.

Thunderbolt and Surf are mandatory for obvious reasons. Hyper Beam is the finishing move for Chansey, Alakazam and Exeggutor (Jynx, Jolteon too), so it's also somewhat mandatory. If you want to make a case for Submission, you could argue you want to use it over Thunder Wave.
Thunder Wave is the worst move here: theoretically, you can drop this move if you assume your plan will always go well; on the other hand, it's somewhat of an emergency button that gives you some compensation in case Raichu has to face Tauros, Zapdos, Gengar or even unstatused Recover users.

 

[Party B0y]

Zero interest in balancing by extreme complex bans personally, you may as well make a pet mod and just edit stats and movepools instead.

They're not exactly 'extreme' or 'complex' ;) Later gens ban combinations of moves (i.e. 'Endless Battle Clause' banning Leppa Berry + Harvest and Leppa Berry + Recycle), it's not a big deal.

I don't want to make a mod, I want to play OU but with more pokemon/variety/creativity. Gen 1 is notoriously imbalanced. This results in a minority of pokemon being OP and therefore mandatory.

 

[Party B0y]

This would change the meta far too much and honestly sounds like an outsider's pov.

You enjoy playing with the same 10 pokemon all the time?

Rule 1 would create alot of imbalances as reflect snorlax keeps a ton of the tier together.

Precisely - we need to create 'imbalance' in the meta to keep it evolving. Right now it's stagnant.

Rule 2 is a bit dumb. I understand the first 4(chansey im a bit surprised by) but hypno? cmon dude what did he do wrong? hes just a lil guy.

Banning sleep inducing moves on OU pokemon gives UU sleep inducers a solid niche. Sleep is OP in Gen 1, so allowing only 'weaker' pokemon to use is balanced. Re. Hypno - if sleep is banned on all OU pokemon Hypno becomes the de facto mandatory sleeper on all teams, which is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. Hypno is actually pretty good being psychic etc. Extending the ban to hypno results in a bunch of grass types being the primary sleepers, which potentially increases viability to fire types etc. Think big ;)

Rule 3 reaches a whole new tier of dumb that I am quite frankly amazed by.

Please elaborate :)

Psychic types are OP, especially Zam/Starmie. With the majority of Starmies running Surf/Bolt grass types become more viable. With Zam running psybeam players can choose between the longevity of a recovery using psychic (zam) or the more hard hitting, shorter lived psychics (Hypno, Mr. Mime, Egg, Jynx).

Rule 4 is decent but i feel like it would make the meta more ugly cuz of the whole scouting thing and people will probably use the same consistent checks to Tauros.

Or perhaps they won't even use Tauros, which would be awesome.

I'm not comfortable with adding any so-called complex bans to a tier like RBY OU and I feel like it would alienate more than half the playerbase.

All 15 of them? Gen 1 needs some life breathed into it.

I disagree with you on this and you sound dumb with this take(sry for the one liner, ain't got no time)

I'm not dumb, you're a dumb poop butt! The current Gen 1 meta is stagnant, the same 10 pokemon have dominated for decades. The way to create a healthy, constantly evolving meta is to nerf a few OU pokemon.

 

[Teh]

Or perhaps they won't even use Tauros, which would be awesome.

Seems to me like you're trying to ban what you think is unfun rather than what you think is unhealthy for the meta. It's fine if you think this tier is unfun or "stagnant" (not true in the slightest) but that doesn't make it justified to start making up absurd complex bans that don't even solve the majority of the "issues" you have. Believe it or not most people actually playing the tier at a high level actually enjoy some of the things you think are problems.

 

[heavylobster43]

We're talking about using Raichu at this specific time because Starmie and Rhydon are major targets. So, what's its role? Raichu is a late game cleaner who uses its speed and special attacks. We should build a team and playtest it a lot before telling exactly which moveset works best, or at least get stats about last remaining pokemon in the average RBY game. Starmie often is among the last ones standing.

Thunderbolt and Surf are mandatory for obvious reasons. Hyper Beam is the finishing move for Chansey, Alakazam and Exeggutor (Jynx, Jolteon too), so it's also somewhat mandatory. If you want to make a case for Submission, you could argue you want to use it over Thunder Wave.
Thunder Wave is the worst move here: theoretically, you can drop this move if you assume your plan will always go well; on the other hand, it's somewhat of an emergency button that gives you some compensation in case Raichu has to face Tauros, Zapdos, Gengar or even unstatused Recover users.

I use Raichu more in midgame to pressure Starmie and open up holes. Lategame it lacks power and I'd rather use another Electric. Even against Rhydon teams I'd rather have Jolteon because with a crit Double Kick you can at least get past one that's taken an Ice Beam, plus it actually outspeeds Tauros and Starmie and beats Zapdos somewhat reliably. You scare out Starmie, Rhydon can't come in, and other mons besides Chansey don't want to take a paralysis. I'm not against Hyper Beam, but Submission has worked for me.

 

[Party B0y]

Seems to me like you're trying to ban what you think is unfun rather than what you think is unhealthy for the meta.

I think "fun" and "healthy meta" are synonymous.

making up absurd complex bans that don't even solve the majority of the "issues" you have

You don't think my bans would result in a wider variety of pokemon being used? Why?

Believe it or not most people actually playing the tier at a high level actually enjoy some of the things you think are problems.

Sure, they've invested a lot of time getting good at the game the way it is now. Which is why they're incredibly opposed to any sort of change. It's in their interest to keep things the same ;)

Variety is fun. That's why camomons, monotype etc. exist. I think it would be fun to play a more balanced gen 1 OU. I'm not trying to stop anyone from playing boring normal OU.

 

[Frrf]

I think "fun" and "healthy meta" are synonymous.



You don't think my bans would result in a wider variety of pokemon being used? Why?



Sure, they've invested a lot of time getting good at the game the way it is now. Which is why they're incredibly opposed to any sort of change. It's in their interest to keep things the same ;)

Variety is fun. That's why camomons, monotype etc. exist. I think it would be fun to play a more balanced gen 1 OU. I'm not trying to stop anyone from playing boring normal OU.

What i don't get is, if you dislike the tier so much, why are you trying to get us to tailor it to your wants instead of playing other tiers?

 

[badabing]

Let me talk a bit about my general feel from watching the games and the general impact of Sleep.

It's well known that Freeze is a death sentence, except for the 1 out of the 119 SPL games played where a Moltres thawed a Frozen pokemon (I honestly wasn't sure how to categorize that one) and having looked a bit more at the games I don't quite classify Sleep as the same level of a death sentence but it is somewhere very close. If there was a general trend throughout and I would have added more columns had I not already been 20 games in was that RBY OU games often boiled down to who could incapacitate more of the opponents Pokemon and I wish I had been able to capture this better. In around 50% of the games, there was a Freeze of some sort, but if you aren't getting lucky or throwing off enough Ice Beams, there is a significant impact on who is getting off a Sleep. One of the things I was interested in was in the situation where one player got his Pokemon slept whilst not reciprocating on the opponent and ended up winning, how common was that victory without getting a freeze and essentially making a 5v6 into a pseudo 5v5. Winning in the Pseudo 5v6 at least in SPL XIII was at 17.65%. Granted this is a relatively small sample size but an interesting tidbit nontheless.

In general though, to no-ones surprise, Sleep is actually everywhere. Thawing was literally more common than a game where neither player got slept which in a way was a shame to see but also indicative of where RBY OU is at present. Over half of games both Players would trade Sleep at least at some point in the game. Whilst 36% of the time, a Pokemon slept would wake, this doesn't actually fill in the whole picture about how damning sleep is as a status. What would often happen in very long games is there would be 4-5 sleep data points and 2-3 wakes and the issue would be as soon as you manage to wake up your Pokemon...well something needs to go to sleep so you would end up sacking the same pokemon to sleep later on in the battle or perhaps a different pokemon depending on the state of the game. On the alternate end, there was cases of slept pokemon being KOed and then another Pokemon being slept but I found that to be less common as people generally did preserve their Sleep fodder until later on in the game where it was more imperative to try wake them up to gain an edge. If I was to make a guess, somewhere around 15-20% would be my number on "this Pokemon did get slept but woke up and had an impact on the game". I didn't do a count on how people ended up getting Slept, but really it was just a large spread and no one particular move came to mind that was particularly getting people.

Another thing I did find interesting was the fact that you were less likely to win the game if you were unable to trade a Sleep onto your opponent than if you got Frozen. Freeze is clearly the more damning status but I wonder if the lowered winrate is to do with the approach taken to the game.

Regardless, I just was bored one weekend and hence this post came to be. Have a wonderful day :>

 

[Teh]

I think "fun" and "healthy meta" are synonymous.

Of course, healthy metas are fun metas. What people find fun is highly subjective, though, and judging by what I quoted in my prior comment it appears that your suggestions are coming from your unenjoyment of what makes RBY unique rather than any valid concerns over the state of the meta. There are valid topics that deserve actual discussion (Tradebacks Clause, how Counter is implemented, etc.) but you're trying to solve problems that nobody other than you have.

You don't think my bans would result in a wider variety of pokemon being used? Why?

I wasn't saying that they wouldn't bring a wider variety of mons into the tier. I actually have no idea how they would impact the tier because I don't think they're seriously worth considering. What I'm trying to say is that beyond some vague notion of "centralization = bad," why is OU being centralized a bad thing? Like seriously think about it, why should the meta be changed to allow more Pokémon to shine? Nothing is clearly overpowered at the moment and meta outside of viable Pokémon is still very fluid. If you don't like centralized metas that's fine, but if you seriously think it's an issue then please explain objectively rather than using emotions.

Sure, they've invested a lot of time getting good at the game the way it is now. Which is why they're incredibly opposed to any sort of change. It's in their interest to keep things the same ;)

People wouldn't want to get good at the game if they didn't enjoy the meta. It's not like people magically spawn as god gamers. The reason we all play is for the love of the game.

Variety is fun.

See paragraph 2.

I'm not trying to stop anyone from playing boring normal OU.

Sorry, this is exactly what you're trying to do. You're suggesting we make MASSIVE changes to the rules all because you don't enjoy that the meta is centralized. You see most of the things that make RBY unique as a problem and want to correct them.

 

[Party B0y]

What i don't get is, if you dislike the tier so much, why are you trying to get us to tailor it to your wants instead of playing other tiers?

I don't dislike this tier. I'm not trying to taylor it. I suggested some changes that would diversify the meta and proposed a one off tournament to try them out. Did you even read what I wrote?

you're trying to solve problems that nobody other than you have.

Nope. Just suggesting an alternative, fun way to play we could try out.

Like seriously think about it, why should the meta be changed to allow more Pokémon to shine?

Because it would be fun and cool?

Nothing is clearly overpowered at the moment

Except psychic types. Oh and Tauros. And Snorlax. And Chansey. And sleep. And reflect. And crits. And...

If you don't like centralized metas that's fine, but if you seriously think it's an issue then please explain objectively rather than using emotions.

The only emotions are your disproportionate hostility to my suggestion.

People wouldn't want to get good at the game if they didn't enjoy the meta. It's not like people magically spawn as god gamers. The reason we all play is for the love of the game.

You've completely misunderstood what I'm saying...in any community it's in the interest of those who are successful to maintain the status quo.

You're suggesting we make MASSIVE changes to the rules all because you don't enjoy that the meta is centralized. You see most of the things that make RBY unique as a problem and want to correct them.

Nope. I suggested an alternative, fun way to play we could try out. Did you get this worked up over the introduction of camomons, monotypes etc.? The outraged comments I've received are ridiculous :)

 

[heavylobster43]

I'd like the communities thoughts on some bans for Gen 1 which I think would diversify the meta:

1. Reflect/Harden/Defense Curl is banned on Chansey and Snorlax.

I think banning the above would encourage more aggressive styles of play, making physical attackers like Kangaskhan, Dodrio, Persian more viable in addition to Tauros/Snorlax. It would also create opportunities for other Pokemon to act as special/physical walls i.e. Cloyster, Porygon, rock types, other reflect users.

2. Sleep inducing moves are banned on Jynx, Gengar, Exeggutor, Chansey, Hypno.

This would seriously nerf Jynx, but Gengar and Egg would still be viable. More importantly a bunch of UU pokemon would now have the opportunity to serve as sleep inducer. Specifically I'm thinking Parasect, Venusaur, Victreebel, Poliwrath.

3. Psychic is banned on Alakazam and Starmie.

Alakazam would still be a viable special wall but would have to resort to Psybeam for STAB. Starmie would only have surf/hydro pump for STAB. This should create space for poison/fighting types (Beedrill couldn't be OHKO'd by either), as well as provide an incentive to use alternative Psychic pokemon like Hypno/Mr. Mime.

4. Tauros cannot have Earthquake/Thunderbolt/Blizzard on the same set

Restricting Tauros' coverage to only one of the above moves encourages creative solutions to Rhydon, Exeggutor, Cloyster, Gengar. There are more opportunities for UU pokemon to act as sweepers i.e. Raichu, Persian.

I'm confident that the suggested changes above would shake up the meta. By creating more niches for UU pokemon other pokemon will also become viable as counters to them. Nerfing a few OU pokemon would be like cutting down a big tree in a forest to create space and light for new plants to grow.

I'd like to arrange a one off tournament with these rules to test them out, is anyone interested?

That's most of the OU tier. I honestly have more success on ladder using 1 or 2 off-meta mons like Victreebell, Raichu, Lapras, etc. than running more meta teams. Also you said banning Reflect Lax and Chansey would make Persian more viable when most of its niche is Slash going right through them, so that doesn't give me confidence that you have an advanced understanding of the meta. Finding creative ways around the really good mons you know are coming is a lot of the fun of RBY.

 

[Koalacance]

I don't dislike this tier. I'm not trying to taylor it. I suggested some changes that would diversify the meta and proposed a one off tournament to try them out. Did you even read what I wrote?



Nope. Just suggesting an alternative, fun way to play we could try out.



Because it would be fun and cool?



Except psychic types. Oh and Tauros. And Snorlax. And Chansey. And sleep. And reflect. And crits. And...



The only emotions are your disproportionate hostility to my suggestion.



You've completely misunderstood what I'm saying...in any community it's in the interest of those who are successful to maintain the status quo.



Nope. I suggested an alternative, fun way to play we could try out. Did you get this worked up over the introduction of camomons, monotypes etc.? The outraged comments I've received are ridiculous :)

If you want to play something "fun", lowtiers/OM have been created for this.
OU is used to play it as a competitive thing. This is why the fact that "overused is stagnant" (which is false btw, you just have to check statistics of tournaments) is good for itself.


You're complaning about the fact that tauros and chansey are too good but want to make reflect ban and psychic stab ban ?
Also if we apply your ideas of ban it would make the meta more centralized (imo) but whatever.

If you want to play more lowtier mons ... You should just play in lowtier... !

 

[heavylobster43]

If you want to play something "fun", lowtiers/OM have been created for this.
OU is used to play it as a competitive thing. This is why the fact that "overused is stagnant" (which is false btw, you just have to check statistics of tournaments) is good for itself.


You're complaning about the fact that tauros and chansey are too good but want to make reflect ban and psychic stab ban ?
Also if we apply your ideas of ban it would make the meta more centralized (imo) but whatever.

If you want to play more lowtier mons ... You should just play in lowtier... !

Note that Pokemon Stadium did in fact rework a lot of stuff like crit rates, sleep, Hyper Beam, fixing Substitute and Focus Energy, etc. so if you're looking to play a "patched" version of the OU meta, Stadium OU might be worth looking into. The balance issues in RBY are not exactly news to anyone, and there are any number of alternative tiers to standard OU.

 

[Electra102]

Theoretically speaking, what if Mew was allowed in OU, but it was:
A) Not allowed to have both Swords Dance and Soft Boiled on the same set
B) Not allowed to have SD
C) Not allowed to have SB
D) Allowed to have both SD and SB
or E) Not allowed to have either

Questions:
1. Which option do you think would be healthiest for the OU metagame?
2. Using the option you chose in question one, how would the metagame change with this addition, in your opinion?
3. Would the metagame become better or worse, in your opinion?
4. Do you think there is a better way to unban Mew, or should it not be unbanned in any way?
5. How would Mew being unbanned in the way you chose be beneficial? How would it be detrimental?

Looking for opinions! All are welcome!

 

[Local Dog]

Theoretically speaking, what if Mew was allowed in OU, but it was:
A) Not allowed to have both Swords Dance and Soft Boiled on the same set
B) Not allowed to have SD
C) Not allowed to have SB
D) Allowed to have both SD and SB
or E) Not allowed to have either

Questions:
1. Which option do you think would be healthiest for the OU metagame?
2. Using the option you chose in question one, how would the metagame change with this addition, in your opinion?
3. Would the metagame become better or worse, in your opinion?
4. Do you think there is a better way to unban Mew, or should it not be unbanned in any way?
5. How would Mew being unbanned in the way you chose be beneficial? How would it be detrimental?

Looking for opinions! All are welcome!

I don't play a lot of RBY so maybe my take here doesn't represent those of RBY regular players

What would be the purpose of unbanning Mew and making a complex ban to have it function? RBY OU is very very well balanced and has been so since decades, a 100 all around BST psychic type with a movepool so huge that a complex ban would be necessary to have it work would just kinda fuck that all up?

No offense but such a discourse seems like a waste of time. If you wanna use gen 1 Mew, Ubers has their door open. mew going down to OU would throw things off any way and negatively influence the RBY OU ruleset

 

[asterat]

Theoretically speaking, what if Mew was allowed in OU, but it was:
A) Not allowed to have both Swords Dance and Soft Boiled on the same set
B) Not allowed to have SD
C) Not allowed to have SB
D) Allowed to have both SD and SB
or E) Not allowed to have either

Questions:
1. Which option do you think would be healthiest for the OU metagame?
2. Using the option you chose in question one, how would the metagame change with this addition, in your opinion?
3. Would the metagame become better or worse, in your opinion?
4. Do you think there is a better way to unban Mew, or should it not be unbanned in any way?
5. How would Mew being unbanned in the way you chose be beneficial? How would it be detrimental?

Looking for opinions! All are welcome!

I mean it would be on every team. Stats, movepool, typing too good to ignore. Even if those moves were banned it has insane bulk and power. Explosion has to be mandatory, blizzard probably also on every set. Then pick what you want between psychic body slam thunderbolt eq twave hyper beam or maybe even submission for chansey (or even reflect). has some similarities to starmie but insane bulk, and great attack highlighted by access to boom. i think it would be the sole best mon in the tier even with movepool restrictions, nothing really checks it effectively and it's unreasonably fat. the healthiest option for the metagame would be to keep it banned.