Eh, here's the IRC log, it had a lot of good discussion:
[22:27] <Hipmonlee> I wanna ask some things about elo ratings
[22:27] <Misty> sure
[22:27] <Hipmonlee> uhh
[22:27] <Misty> I don't know the specifics behind them, it's a lot of complex math that can be done by a simple calculator
[22:27] <Misty> but i know a lot of the theory
[22:27] <Hipmonlee> ok like
[22:28] <Hipmonlee> lets say like someone like arti for instance
[22:28] <Hipmonlee> who doesnt have a rating
[22:28] <Hipmonlee> after a while
[22:28] <Hipmonlee> because he hasnt been playing
[22:28] <Hipmonlee> but is obviously good at pokemon
[22:28] <Hipmonlee> starts and he has like the default rating of whatever
[22:29] <Hipmonlee> and say I have a huge rating because I am the best
[22:29] <Hipmonlee> I battle him and lose
[22:29] <alex> you lose a lot of points
[22:29] <Hipmonlee> yeah
[22:29] <MoP> depends on how much you have though
[22:29] <Hipmonlee> I have a huge amount
[22:29] <MoP> then you lost the average amount i would like to assume, as a new user doesn't mean 'suck'
[22:29] <Hipmonlee> ok but couldnt it be possible to have a system that like repeats
[22:30] <alex> repeats?
[22:30] <Hipmonlee> like
[22:30] <Hipmonlee> I dont really know how to explain it
[22:30] <Hipmonlee> but like in that scenario
[22:30] <Hipmonlee> I lost a lot of points because of timing
[22:30] <Hipmonlee> like arti went on to battle a lot and he is good at pokemon
[22:30] <alex> could reset everyones rating every so many months
[22:30] <MoP> well according to the system, he is not 'obviously good'
[22:30] <Hipmonlee> so his points shot up quickly
[22:30] <alex> but
[22:31] <Hipmonlee> yeah but that is the problem isnt it mop
[22:31] <alex> thats just how it goes, someone new comes, if theyre good they shoot up fast and eventually shit levels out
[22:31] <Hipmonlee> yeah but I still am punished for my bad timing
[22:31] <MoP> yes
[22:31] <Hipmonlee> if I was smart I just wouldnt battle arti
[22:31] <alex> or you could battle unrated
[22:31] <Hipmonlee> until he had a decent rating
[22:31] <Hipmonlee> yeah
[22:31] <Misty> oh no, you lost points
[22:31] <Hipmonlee> I could do that
[22:31] <Misty> go fight some good people and get them back
[22:31] <Misty> :/
[22:32] <alex> and its not like the points are hard to make u
[22:32] <alex> p
[22:32] <MoP> i'd say thats fair
[22:32] <alex> its not a win-loss record
[22:32] <Hipmonlee> I am just suggesting
[22:32] <alex> the losses dont exist
[22:32] <Misty> it's not like you'd lose 200 points or something anyway
[22:32] <Hipmonlee> that we could improve this system
[22:32] <alex> i dont understand what your suggestion is though
[22:32] <MoP> i dont think any system will 'work' unless yo're able to win a match yet still lose points
[22:32] <alex> i can see the "problem"
[22:32] <alex> but how do you suppose we fix it
[22:32] <Hipmonlee> ok
[22:32] <MoP> hip is thinking like, if you buy a computer from apple store for 1500
[22:32] <Hipmonlee> so we take a time period
[22:32] <MoP> and it goes on sale to 1200 a week later
[22:32] <MoP> can he get that 300 back
[22:33] <Hipmonlee> and we just keep repeating the formula on the results of this time period
[22:33] <alex> i dont think hes asking for points back?
[22:33] <Hipmonlee> until it sorta steadies out
[22:33] <MoP> but the general idea of it kinda
[22:33] <Hipmonlee> so we can sorta backdate scoring
[22:33] <alex> so you mean
[22:33] <Hipmonlee> I dont know if the elo formula would allow for this
[22:33] <alex> if you lost to jason
[22:33] <MoP> also um i dont think any point system will ever work unless you can still lose point for winning
[22:34] <alex> and he were to go up like 500 rating in the next week or whatever
[22:34] <Hipmonlee> stfu mop
[22:34] <MoP> no seriously
[22:34] <MoP> whats to stop me from battling randomstarknub 18000 times
[22:34] <Steelicks> L.L
[22:34] <alex> youd lose less points because he shot up in such a short time period?
[22:34] <alex> you can get 0 points from a win
[22:34] <Hipmonlee> well I have a suggestion for that mop too
[22:34] <alex> if theyre significantly lower than you
[22:34] <MoP> dont say ladderbot system
[22:34] <MoP> please dont say ladderbot system
[22:34] <alex> youll get like 0-2 points
[22:34] <Hipmonlee> of course not mop
[22:35] <alex> hip am i getting what youre trying to say here
[22:35] <alex> [00:36:13] <+alex> if you lost to jason [00:36:19] <+alex> and he were to go up like 500 rating in the next week or whatever [00:36:36] <+alex> youd lose less points because he shot up in such a short time period?
[22:35] <Hipmonlee> yeah
[22:35] <alex> that sounds reasonable
[22:35] <Hipmonlee> I dont even know if it would be a points system
[22:35] <Hipmonlee> but like
[22:35] <MoP> i still dunno, cause random user with ET mentality would bring up a cloan and keep changing nicks and forfeiting
[22:35] <Hipmonlee> if you think about like a points system
[22:35] <Hipmonlee> say I battle and I beat you
[22:35] <MoP> therefore shooting his points up for the first 10 or so battles etc
[22:35] <Hipmonlee> then we battle again and you beat me
[22:36] <MoP> clone*
[22:36] <Hipmonlee> like when I battled you we were even
[22:36] <Misty> yeah, ELO has it set up so if you beat someone way less than you
[22:36] <Misty> you will get no points
[22:36] <MoP> what if you keep beating people that are new with 'default' amount of points
[22:36] <Hipmonlee> then when you battled me I had more points than you so you got more points for winning than I did
[22:36] <Hipmonlee> when I beat you
[22:36] <alex> the default is very low compared to what players like us would have
[22:36] <Hipmonlee> so you are ranked higher when we are 1-1
[22:36] <alex> you would get nothing
[22:37] <alex> hip it doesnt even differentiate that
[22:37] <alex> it would be the same amount of points
[22:37] <MoP> k than thats all of my concerns basically!
[22:37] <alex> the rating you get from beating someone equally rated is like 15ish
[22:37] <alex> he MIGHT get 16
[22:37] <alex> instead of 15
[22:37] <alex> but probably not
[22:37] <alex> unless you got a lot more points in between the two battles
[22:38] <Hipmonlee> ok whatever that is a minor point anyway
[22:38] <Hipmonlee> it was just trying to illustrate what I was suggesting
[22:38] <Hipmonlee> alsop
[22:38] <Hipmonlee> the other thing is I think definitely some battles should have higher weightings than others
[22:38] <Hipmonlee> because people do try harder in tournaments
[22:38] <Hipmonlee> I know I do
[22:39] <Hipmonlee> and as far as I am aware elo wouldnt consider that
[22:39] <MoP> so you want tournament battles to have a different point setting?
[22:39] <Misty> that's... not really quantifiable
[22:39] <MoP> thats cause elo probably has one forumla
[22:40] <Hipmonlee> we can pick arbitrary amounts misty
[22:40] <MoP> hip i think you're treating this as if theres someone deciding what battle is important and which isn't
[22:40] <MoP> but i might be just getting all this wrong
[22:40] <alex> hip thats true
[22:40] <Hipmonlee> there is something deciding that
[22:40] <Misty> if you aren't going to play up to your level, just play unrated
[22:40] <alex> i dont really take any non-tourney battles seriously
[22:40] <alex> for the most part
[22:40] <Misty> that is why i recommend tourney battles be forced rated
[22:40] <alex> i take huge risks and stuff like that
[22:41] <alex> but in tourneys im more conservative i guess
[22:41] <Hipmonlee> I actually think non tournament battles should not be counted at all
[22:41] <MoP> but those are the ones that get you into shape for said tournaments
[22:41] <Hipmonlee> that way you prevent people screening opponents or whatever
[22:41] <alex> depends on how many tournaments are running at a time
[22:41] <MoP> sure people fuck arond and try new stuff
[22:41] <MoP> but you still have to test out your 'actual team' to serious battles
[22:42] <alex> i kinda agree with only tourney battles counting actually
[22:42] <Hipmonlee> yeah but if you are testing
[22:42] <Hipmonlee> that shouldnt be rated
[22:42] <alex> that sounds good to me if we can keep a steady stream of tournaments going all the time
[22:42] <Hipmonlee> well we will have the tour
[22:42] <MoP> honestly to me, having no rating or have the option to never have something rated
[22:42] <MoP> keeps all the complications away
[22:42] <Hipmonlee> the other thing is like, non dp ou battles
[22:42] <Hipmonlee> should they count or what?
[22:42] <alex> no
[22:42] <alex> or
[22:43] <alex> there should be separate ratings
[22:43] <alex> for each gen
[22:43] <MoP> but then when do non-dp ou tournaments
[22:43] <Misty> each gen i can do
[22:43] <MoP> etc etc
[22:43] <Misty> stuff like uu would get annoying though
[22:43] <Hipmonlee> well I dont think it would need to be programmed into competitor
[22:43] <alex> it would
[22:43] <Hipmonlee> especially if it was only tournaments
[22:43] <alex> manually keeping track of that shit is a total pain
[22:43] <Hipmonlee> well we already manually keep track of tournaments
[22:44] <alex> yeah but not the ratings of thousands of battlers
[22:44] <MoP> if we did manually tracking of tournament only we are doing basically what pr did
[22:44] <alex> doing it manually is silly, id rather no records than that
[22:44] <Hipmonlee> well I have no idea what pr did
[22:44] <alex> but anyway mop
[22:44] <Hipmonlee> but it seems like a good idea to me
[22:44] <alex> the reason i like the rating shit is that there are some good randoms who i dont know at all
[22:44] <alex> and who id like to battle and would never challenge otherwise
[22:45] <MoP> yeah but i'd say give people the option to have ratings or not
[22:45] <Hipmonlee> the reason I like ratings is I wanna kick peoples asses
[22:45] <Hipmonlee> especially mops
[22:45] <alex> especially when the people i know like arent on
[22:45] <MoP> lol are you kidding me?
[22:45] <MoP> i rather not have ratings
[22:45] <alex> why
[22:45] <MoP> i rather be -0-0-0-0%
[22:45] <MoP> cause it removes all complications
[22:45] <alex> what complications
[22:45] <MoP> if you think i suck than obviously your opinion doesn't matter, but if you know what you're doing and matter
[22:45] <MoP> it doesn't take me having a rating
[22:46] <MoP> to show that i'm good
[22:46] <Hipmonlee> "my opponent wont move for 5 minutes because he doesnt want to lose his rating"
[22:46] <MoP> so why the fuck would i care if i had a rating
[22:46] <Hipmonlee> to prove that you are second only to mr
[22:46] <Hipmonlee> me
[22:46] <alex> i seriously wouldnt ever battle the low rated people
[22:46] <MoP> well if thats your belief, than so be it
[22:46] <alex> it would save me time
[22:46] <alex> 99% of my battles on shoddy are totally worthless
[22:46] <MoP> i rather stay at neutral rating
[22:46] <Lesm46> i would like to make ratings optional too so i can use any random team without worrying about ruining my rating
[22:46] <alex> i dont learn anything, i dont get any better, its not fun
[22:46] <MoP> 99% of my battles on shoddy are from #smogon
[22:47] <alex> even then
[22:47] <Hipmonlee> well this is why I say base it only on tournament battles
[22:47] <Misty> unrated battles will definitely be in
[22:47] <alex> a lot of #smogon people are just as terrible as anyone
[22:47] <alex> i just dont want to waste my time battling shitty people
[22:47] <Misty> that is sort of necessary
[22:47] <alex> its not fun
[22:47] <alex> and the rating system will help significantly in that respect
[22:47] <alex> challenge from someone with rating <x? nope, declined
[22:48] <Hipmonlee> I dont like the idea of a rating system for that purpoose lords
[22:48] <Hipmonlee> if there is a rating it should just be about friendly competition rather than excluding people from battliung
[22:48] <MoP> and what happens if you start losing lords
[22:48] <MoP> cause if you are only playing tough competition
[22:48] <Hipmonlee> it wont matter if we have a good stystem mop
[22:48] <MoP> than other people will start holding the same thought as you
[22:48] <MoP> 'oh lords has a low rating, fuck this'
[22:48] <Hipmonlee> also then is a word
[22:49] <alex> my rating wont be low..?
[22:49] <alex> there is no one i cant beat at least sometimes
[22:49] <MoP> but that holds true for everyone else
[22:49] <alex> right
[22:49] <MoP> anyone can beat any other person on any given day in here
[22:49] <alex> not anyone
[22:49] <Hipmonlee> also the other thing about elo that I am unsure of
[22:49] <alex> but the top tier of us yes
[22:49] <Hipmonlee> well
[22:50] <alex> so once our ratings are established
[22:50] <alex> and we pull ahead of the rest of the people
[22:50] <Hipmonlee> I am confused about when ratings should be updated
[22:50] <alex> theyll fluctuate a bit but will stay in roughly the same place
[22:50] <alex> after every battle theyre updated
[22:50] <Misty> it would be automatic
[22:50] <Misty> yeah
[22:50] <Misty> once you finished a battle your rating would update immediately
[22:50] <Hipmonlee> I dont really understand how they work well enough to criticise
[22:51] <Misty> the idea is simple, your rating depends on not just on your wins and losses, but who you win and lose to
[22:51] <Hipmonlee> yeah
[22:51] <Misty> it is a fairly accurate system, chess ratings are based on it
[22:51] <Hipmonlee> well every rating system should be like that
[22:52] <MoP> um isn't yahoo ratings like that?
[22:52] <Hipmonlee> yes
[22:52] <Misty> probably
[22:52] <Misty> playsite has that system too
[22:52] <Misty> the idea is just to search out an improvement to the retarded "w-l-d" system on netbattle
[22:52] <MoP> yeah so doesn't pretty much every rating system on this side of ladderbot already goes like that
[22:52] <Misty> because that will NOT be in competitor, at least not alone
[22:52] <Hipmonlee> well misty, if that is the case I hate the idea
[22:53] <MoP> well that SHOULD be in it, although not alone
[22:53] <Hipmonlee> but I think it would be cool to have some kind of official rankings
[22:53] <Hipmonlee> since pokemon is not really a game well suited to knockout tournaments
[22:53] <MoP> hip is there any intent on why you want this besides trying to show off
[22:53] <Hipmonlee> I like showing off
[22:53] <Hipmonlee> I just think it would be fun
[22:53] <MoP> well in that case i hope you unlucky in your first 15 battles
[22:54] <MoP> and end up in negative points
[22:54] <Hipmonlee> I'll just keep battling
[22:54] <alex> i dont think w-l-d should be in
[22:54] <alex> theres no reason
[22:54] <Misty> w-l-d is already not in
[22:54] <alex> [00:55:22] <+MoP> well that SHOULD be in it, although not alone
[22:54] <Misty> that decision was made a while back
[22:54] <alex> addressing that
[22:54] <MoP> i'd still like to see how often someone wins or loses to where they got to their points
[22:54] <MoP> or rather rating
[22:54] <Misty> yeah if the rating system is in
[22:54] <Misty> w-l-d might be okay to augment it
[22:55] <MoP> yeah thats what i'm going for
[22:55] <alex> again, why
[22:55] <MoP> otherwise i can careless as i plan to go all out unrated
[22:55] <Misty> to give you some more information
[22:55] <Hipmonlee> yeah I dont like that at all misty
[22:55] <Hipmonlee> it will just be a pain in the ass
[22:55] <alex> rating gives you all the information you need
[22:55] <Hipmonlee> ratings too
[22:55] <MoP> w-l-d can show you how much someone improved for example
[22:55] <alex> well i wouldnt care if we had no form of records at all
[22:55] <MoP> if it was with ratings
[22:55] <CFickle> ratings always seem to foster a negative attitude though
[22:55] <MoP> or how much someone is dedicated
[22:56] <Misty> well it might be able to give you some insight into how accurate the rating is
[22:56] <alex> the rating is always accurate, thats the point
[22:56] <Misty> if they are rated 1700 but they have 2 wins, they probably just got lucky
[22:56] <alex> you cant cheat the system
[22:56] <MoP> like someone could have a respcetable rating if they beat the top 3 rated person
[22:56] <Roy> yeah, some of us just brag about our win streak against other people ls
[22:56] <MoP> but i dont fear anyone who is 3-0
[22:56] <CFickle> i know roy, its really horrible
[22:56] <CFickle> those people are pathetic
[22:56] <Hipmonlee> maybe you could have total rated games
[22:56] <Hipmonlee> or something
[22:56] <Roy> yeah!
[22:56] <alex> total games played would be fine with me
[22:56] <alex> i just dont want to have to play seriously and avoid getting losses on my record
[22:57] <alex> with the rating system i dont care if i lose to whomever
[22:57] <alex> because i can just get it back and theres nothing lost
[22:57] <Hipmonlee> but anyway I still think the idea of any inbuilt rating system is just gonna be a pain in the ass
[22:57] <alex> you cant erase a loss
[22:57] <MoP> whats wrong with getting losses on your record
[22:57] <MoP> if your rating is sky high
[22:57] <alex> ...
[22:57] <MoP> no really
[22:57] <alex> i just dont want them there
[22:57] <MoP> you sound like a recordwhore
[22:57] <MoP> or some shit
[22:57] <alex> no ive never even played rated
[22:57] <Sonuis> Seperate servers
[22:57] <Hipmonlee> some people will be record whores mop
[22:58] <Hipmonlee> and those people will bitch and moan and it will suck balls
[22:58] <Hipmonlee> and we also have to worry about people registering new accounts to erase their records
[22:58] <MoP> i dont see how you can stop that
[22:58] <alex> link them by IP
[22:58] <Misty> yeah you can't
[22:58] <MoP> some people might play serously but under aliases
[22:58] <Hipmonlee> not have ratings?
[22:58] <Misty> and who cares anyway
[22:59] <Misty> i don't see why that's a big deal
[22:59] <MoP> like otherwise you have people like jump who would always refuse to battle
[22:59] <alex> and yeah that doesnt really matter..
[22:59] <MoP> under his own nick in case someone gets lucky etc
[22:59] <Hipmonlee> well it was a big deal on netbattle
[22:59] <alex> thats because w-l-d is retarded
[23:00] <alex> anyway i dont care either way so whatever
[23:00] <Hipmonlee> well if we had an elo system on nb then people would still register new accounts and it would be a big deal on nb still
[23:00] <Misty> i'm going to leave you guys to discuss this, i'm going to bed (i'll read the logs tomorrow though)
[23:00] * Misty is away
[23:00] <Hipmonlee> well I didnt want to discuss that at all
[23:00] <Kumar> we can ban people with multiple accounts
[23:00] <Hipmonlee> I wanted to discuss the system itself
[23:00] <Kumar> like we used to do on nb