After thinking more about this and as time went on, I realized that I was more and more on the fence about the Cacturne -> A+ nomination. I wanted to get some more perspective on how we should handle this, so I wanted to write up Cacturne's pros and cons and see how it would fare in other tier's definitions of S-Rank. Feel free to dispute anything on the list or later in the post.
Cacturne: Pros and Cons
Pros
Cons
Since PU has no official definition of S-Rank, I would like to take a look at other tier's definitions of S-Rank and see how well Cacturne fits.
RU Viability Rankings
"The best of the best. Reserved for Pokemon who shape and define the RU metagame and are a clear-cut above the rest of the tier. These Pokemon are typically very powerful offensive threats that are difficult to prepare for and/or are phenomenal support and defensive threats that provide significant utility or defensive potential, respectively. Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths."
Obviously, Cacturne would fall under the "powerful offensive threats that are difficult to prepare for" criteria. However, I would argue that it struggles to fall under the "can easily perform multiple rolls effectively, increasing their viability and unpredictability". Cacturne has many options, but I would argue that only two main sets, AoA (physically and specially biased) and Swords Dance, are the two best sets, and the others are at least somehow suboptimal - Spikes has to choose between setting hazards and attacking, Nasty Plot has to forego Sucker Punch or coverage, most everything else is suboptimal (like Destiny Bond.) However, the vast difference in how you have to prepare for these different sets (using counters, not checks) helps convince me that Cacturne would be labeled as S-Rank using this definition.
NU Viability Rankings
"Pokemon in this rank fill all of the main criteria and then some with a strong proficiency in one or more of the positive traits. If a Pokemon in this rank has any downsides, they are usually tame or eclipsed by their obvious assets."
I would argue Cacturne does not fulfill the splashability or reliability criteria but fulfills the rest of the positive criteria. The negative criteria I would associate Cacturne with would include speed and general bulk. That totals 3/5 positive criteria and 2/6 negative criteria. So, in my opinion, that would not mark Cacturne as S-Rank by this definition, as I feel it falls just a bit short.
LC Viability Rankings
"Reserved for the very best Pokemon in the LC metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits."
Cacturne, in my opinion, performs two rolls extremely well, and those are Swords Dance, which breaks fat stuff and blows away unprepared offense, and AoA (both physically and specially biased), which chooses its counters and surprises people who switch a mon into the wrong move. Cacturne is relatively low-risk, high-reward, and it does make up for its flaws of being slow with insanely powerful priority. Its main drawback is opposing fast status/Substitute users, and even these can be played around by predicting. IMO, Cacturne qualifies for S-Rank by this definition. Two out of three.
I know that I didn't start this idea of Cacturne dropping to A+, I merely voiced the community, but I was initially convinced that Cacturne should drop. After debating on PS! with a lot of regulars and mods, seeing how Cacturne compares to other tier's definitions of S-Rank, and reading good arguments in this thread, I've changed my mind. IMO, Leave Cacturne in S-Rank.
Pros
- Multiple viable sets including specially biased Aoa, physically biased AoA, Swords Dance, Nasty Plot
- Lots of options and coverage including Spikes, Focus Blast/Superpower/Drain Punch, Destiny Bond, Poison Jab (these are not all as viable as each other, but the unpredictability factor is there)
- Extremely powerful priority in Sucker Punch that does hefty damage (>50%) to nearly all offensive mons
- Basically zero true, 100% counters with all of the different sets
- Resists lots of priority including opposing Sucker Punches and Shadow Sneaks, and immune to Aqua Jet
- Can come in on slow mons and get a kill basically every time
Cons
- Frail, 4x weak to U-turn which several common defensive mons carry
- Reliant on Sucker Punch versus faster mons and forced to predict versus fast mons with Substitute/status moves
- Completely shut down by Monferno, a splashable S-Rank mon
- Always walled by something no matter what the exact set
- Meta has adjusted to handle it to some degree
Since PU has no official definition of S-Rank, I would like to take a look at other tier's definitions of S-Rank and see how well Cacturne fits.
RU Viability Rankings
"The best of the best. Reserved for Pokemon who shape and define the RU metagame and are a clear-cut above the rest of the tier. These Pokemon are typically very powerful offensive threats that are difficult to prepare for and/or are phenomenal support and defensive threats that provide significant utility or defensive potential, respectively. Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths."
Obviously, Cacturne would fall under the "powerful offensive threats that are difficult to prepare for" criteria. However, I would argue that it struggles to fall under the "can easily perform multiple rolls effectively, increasing their viability and unpredictability". Cacturne has many options, but I would argue that only two main sets, AoA (physically and specially biased) and Swords Dance, are the two best sets, and the others are at least somehow suboptimal - Spikes has to choose between setting hazards and attacking, Nasty Plot has to forego Sucker Punch or coverage, most everything else is suboptimal (like Destiny Bond.) However, the vast difference in how you have to prepare for these different sets (using counters, not checks) helps convince me that Cacturne would be labeled as S-Rank using this definition.
NU Viability Rankings
"Pokemon in this rank fill all of the main criteria and then some with a strong proficiency in one or more of the positive traits. If a Pokemon in this rank has any downsides, they are usually tame or eclipsed by their obvious assets."
Positives: Threat level, Splashability, Consistent, Effect on the metagame, Reliability. Negatives: Passive, Outclassed, Weak to Hazards, Speed, General Bulk, Matchup.
LC Viability Rankings
"Reserved for the very best Pokemon in the LC metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits."
Cacturne, in my opinion, performs two rolls extremely well, and those are Swords Dance, which breaks fat stuff and blows away unprepared offense, and AoA (both physically and specially biased), which chooses its counters and surprises people who switch a mon into the wrong move. Cacturne is relatively low-risk, high-reward, and it does make up for its flaws of being slow with insanely powerful priority. Its main drawback is opposing fast status/Substitute users, and even these can be played around by predicting. IMO, Cacturne qualifies for S-Rank by this definition. Two out of three.
I know that I didn't start this idea of Cacturne dropping to A+, I merely voiced the community, but I was initially convinced that Cacturne should drop. After debating on PS! with a lot of regulars and mods, seeing how Cacturne compares to other tier's definitions of S-Rank, and reading good arguments in this thread, I've changed my mind. IMO, Leave Cacturne in S-Rank.
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