Potential Tiering Changes in BW NU

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Finchinator

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With old gens lower tiers being officially unlocked for tiering changes and NUPL coming to a close, it's the about time to start discussing tiering changes in the BW NU metagame.

Shadow Tag is, unsurprisingly, one of the centers of attention here. Even with Gothitelle being restricted to higher tiers, Gothorita does more than enough to stir up trouble in a limited NU metagame. With options like Trick, effectively shutting down any wall, and Calm Mind, giving you a chance to get a free +6/+6 if timed properly, Gothorita can flip games quicker than just about anything in the tier. Being able to cripple, eliminate, and/or set-up on common options like Alomomola, Duosion, Miltank, Musharna, Roselia, defensive Seismitoad, Regirock, Wartortle, and Audino is obviously going to open the door for trouble.

Prankster Copycat + Roar hazard shuffling is a strategy that has grown infamous for being mindlessly effective when paired with hazards, especially with the usage of Riolu. I do not have experience using this strategy myself because it makes my blood boil and I am a humble fella, but I have been asked to include it in this post by numerous parties and the reasoning why is straightforward. There are few natural ways around this strategy while a Pokemon as otherwise unviable as Riolu puts entire teams through the spin cycle, phasing them relentlessly until no longer possible while entry hazards accumulate damage. I think that parties with more experience should comment further, but this is absolutely a hot topic!

Baton Pass has been intermittently problematic in the BW NU metagame. Musharna is able to pass Calm Minds to various abusers, including speed boosting ones such as Combusken, which can cause major issues if the opponent has no priority. NU lacks the same full Baton Pass chains that other BW tiers have had over the years, which plagued a number of metagame states, but it does have an issue containing stacking of boosts with Baton Pass nonetheless. A simple discussion of if the move itself should be banned or left alone will be sufficient here; we are not looking to entertain any needlessly complex clauses at this point in time.

Sleep inducing moves were recently banned in both BW OU and BW RU, giving us a natural progression to discuss them here. I am actually of the opinion that they are not prevalent enough here to warrant a ban; only a small handful of viable Pokemon use Sleep Powder and there is not much else going on in this department in BW NU currently. However, if people wish to argue that this has a negative impact, then by all means do so and we will hear you out.

This is just a preliminary discussion, so anyone who feels strongly about the metagame should chime in. Thank you

Bughouse DnB PDC Wamr soulgazer Chill Shadow Raichy SoulWind Insult Raseri HSA SPACE FORCE meeps HJAD bugzinator shiloh GW Kushalos Star Jyph Yugon Shuckleking87 DurzaOffTopic -- tagging everyone who played BW NU over the last couple of NUPLs

Please note that this is not a formal voting pool, but just tagging people in case they are interested in discussion, and there will be a procedural thread posted on old generation voting that I am working on in the near future.
 
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Batzi

“I’m Cosmo Kramer, the Assman!”
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Just started playing this tier this year, and while it is fun, it is very unbalanced at the moment, I think everything you mentioned bar sleep (because I haven't had an issue with it yet, however chlorophyll sleep powder mons benefit greatly from this so idk) are definitely somethings that should be looked at.

The one I want to focus on the most though, is Shadow Tag.

Here are a few replays from the most recent NUPL which feature Shadow Tag:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5nu-560233 - Chillshadow vs dnb - as you can see here, Goth traps Regirock which opens up Chillshadow's Swellow and Kangaskhan for a sweep (i.e. here it's working with normal spam).

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5nu-561857 - Chillshadow vs PDC- this is an example where a passive pokemon such as Alo has to run Shed Shell just so that the Goth mu isn't bad.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5nu-565923 - Raichy VS Shuckleking87- an example of Goth being able to trap a mon who can't hurt it much and set up CM so it can kill it and chip away at the Skuntank here.

You may notice there aren't many replays where Gothorita actually does trap something and pretty much decide the game on the spot, but that's because all of these teams have to build around it, which is the annoying part. I would rather not have to use Shed Shell on my Alo because then it would fuck up some of the calcs (iirc some with Charizard) or Regirock, Toad, or anything of the sort.

Will also leave a little piece on Riolu and say that shit is brainless.
 
I haven't used goth too much the past NUPL but i do have enough replays from past tours to warrant goths ban singlehandedly. I'm probs not gonna post any or maybe edit some in, but surely everyone who played bw nu recently knows what im talking about

Some who know me know that i hate cm goth cuz i think people put too much strain on it to try and win on its own but i think scarf trick is the most broken mon in the tier, because not only can you 1v1 most fat mons which see less usage because of it (vs me anw), it also opens up the path as yugon mentioned to allow other mons to win.

ie goth helping strong mons that have reliable but FEW answers like swellow, prevents many mons from locking into certain moves like fighting types or non stab, forcing people to run shed or skunk since not many viable pursuiters exist

Yes goth usually doesnt win on the spot, but the way all my goth teams are built is: i want to win with x which has limited counters, which goth set can trap all of them? And this works a lot

Moving on to riolu, it's too uncompetitive and made bw nu unplayable because u have to have on all ur teams: fake out/tect/faster prio/never go to a passive mon which is absurd, because even if u have one, riolu can still circumvent them partially (u need to win a 50/50 with skunk and it has to have taunt, mola is actually unable to use tect to stop it because riolu can sub making things more complicated) which leaves kangaskhan so lol. Also not to mention having these mons but them roaring u into everything else when the damage is done.

One more key thing about riolu is that unlike liepard, u dont need a dedicated team, u could in theory slap a riolu on almost every team because garbodor and rocker is on a huge chunk of teams anyway so u got all it takes by default for riolu to thrive

Baton pass is what ive been toying with lately, and some may have seen or faced my mush pass to combusken, which is honestly unstoppable because mush can without a doubt, ALWAYS pass a cm to any mon in the tier because of: 1-mental herb, absurd bulk 3-absurd speed so u always slow pass safely. Needing the move aqua jet for chicken is absurd and musharna pass even circumvents goth so u are incentivised to use mush pass rather than regular mush

No opinion on sleep, havent encountered it much but if i had the chance to get rid of it i would because sleep in bw lol

Ban goth riolu and batonpass on priority and this tier becomes beautiful
 

Bughouse

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Goth and riolu are absurdly restrictive to teambuilding. I’d be interested in banning both and then seeing how the meta develops when you no longer have to gothproof and rioluproof every team. I think taking on 4 bans at once is incredibly unnecessary and if all four of these are put to a vote at once I would vote ban on these two clearly most broken elements and no ban on the others.

Aside from elements that some see as uncompetitive (IMO goth and riolu are both flat out broken, too), I would also greatly consider a more traditional vote on Garbodor. While obviously not as good as scolipede was, it fills its role admirably and sets spikes so damn effectively in a meta with negative hazard removal. IMO it deserves to go (and has since the end of BW) for basically the same reasons scolipede got the boot right after BW ended.
 

soulgazer

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Prankster shenanigans and Shadow Tag can go.

I’d like to have a meta where I don’t need to prep for the aboves before giving a definite opinion on BP and sleep.

Sleep was moreso a problem back when Jynx was part of the meta… nowadays I believe the only viable ´mon with a decently accurate sleep move is Vileplume, or the rare times you use or face a Roselia without Spikes.
 

DnB

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well, since i think BW NU is the worst of all, i def. think that shadow tag, prankster copycat, baton pass and sleep have to go

shadow tag is imo a no brainer, the ability is just broken af in this tier and Chill Shadow already said everything (u did your best to get this bs banned, thx <3 )

i considered using prankster copycat myself and the only reason i decided to bring it was the huge amount of kanga/prio usage in the tier. and while prankster copycat is not the only reason you use a lot prio in this tier, it also plays a huge part. in general this strat feels more like matchup fishing, but you can even just slap a random riolu on every team and just use it midgame for some roar shuffles to get some more hazard damage going

baton pass is weird, but still really strong, the musharna + combusken strat comes into mind immediately, and one reason it works so well is that combusken always runs protect, so its safe against fake out

sleep is not that common, but its still BW sleep and i support every opportunity to get rid of it, it should just get banned in gen 5 as a whole


also, can we ban garbodor next?
 

SBPC

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Shadow Tag and Prankster shenanigans are both no brainer bans here, a large portion of the community wants them gone to begin with and I think with them gone the meta gets a lot more enjoyable as you don't have to worry about being fished by these elements in builder. There's not a lot I can add to the discussion here as a lot of it was covered by Chill Shadow (incredible post by the way) but I'll chime in with a few example points from his post in a more specific manner.
Yes goth usually doesnt win on the spot, but the way all my goth teams are built is: i want to win with x which has limited counters, which goth set can trap all of them? And this works a lot
Like with this for example, Normal Spam can have a Goth trap the opponent's Regirock/Carracosta/Various normal answer and the matchup becomes close to unplayable, this also stacks with the fact that most Ghosts in the tier want absolutely nothing to do with Swellow or Scrappy Kenga, so it makes the matchup turn into a careful dance of "I cannot let the goth in once or I lose."

Prankster phase shenanigans forcibly fishes the tier and there's nothing more to add to it really, if the chain starts and you don't have a fake out user immediately able to stop it you just lose the game.

Baton Pass I haven't played against nor with a lot personally so I'm not going to try and talk much about it, but I would never disagree with getting rid of it as it's able to make certain threats just completely unbearable. Combusken + Musharna is utterly ridiculous and is possibly the best example I can give of it being overwhelming, especially with protect granting it safety over prio spam.

And now we get to talk about my favorite way to ruin BW games in a matter of one turn. Sleep, this status alone is ridiculous and while most people would argue that there's not many viable sleep users in the tier, being limited to the handful of grasses such as Roselia and Tangela, I'd argue that the instance of offensive threats to use random sleep moves as additions to their movekit in place of coverage is actually one of the most lethal ways to make sleep function as a damning status. BW NU is an incredibly offensive meta and naturally the preservation of important checks to teams such as Normal-type spam or setup based threats being able to get into winning positions incredibly quickly, keeping checks healthy can be a challenge as is. Kangaskhan can lose a non-STAB for sing, Gardevoir run Hypnosis as a status alongside its usual coverage, and other miscellaneous trickery of that nature. The effect sleep can have on a game turns these techs from an oddly placed status move to a more accurate version of Fissure. This isn't frequently used but considering the consensus around sleep is already wanting to get rid of it, I thought I'd offer something to the conversation that has netted me wins I really otherwise shouldn't have gotten. Sleep is still banworthy just by the usage of powder mons alone in my opinion, but it's worth to discuss just how sleep can function as a way to completely doom matchups that would otherwise be a lot easier to play.
 

Finchinator

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It seems we have a strong amount of support to proceed to a vote on these topics. I would like to draw up framework for this and talk with Shiloh and the tiering heads later this week so we can potentially get this done before the upcoming BWPL (y’all should sign up btw).

If anyone opposes this, you should speak up promptly so we can consider this as well. Thanks!
 

Finchinator

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I would like to draw up framework for this and talk with Shiloh and the tiering heads later this week so we can potentially get this done before the upcoming BWPL (y’all should sign up btw).
tl;dr = I got busy and then it was too deep into BWPL to conduct a mid-tournament vote, so I tabled this. The tournament is now over and I would like to re-open this to any thoughts. If there is nothing to add on, we will circle back on trying to have a vote in the near future with that in mind.
 

watashi

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shadow tag: i feel like this only really affects alomomola/duosion and a bunch of other bad pokemon. garbodor still gets 2 layers or more if you're not choiced goth. could maybe use a vote if people really dislike trapping

riolu: annoying on paper but it rarely ever works in practice since it's really prediction heavy. a lot of protect/priority in the current meta not to mention every mon running some form of status to fuck over riolu while it sets up. wouldn't be sad to see it be banned though

baton pass: not really an issue, cm pass is a legitimate strategy. plus who really wants to be switching around when theres 3 spikes + sr on the field at all times?

sleep: not an issue

maybe take a look at garbodor since that pokemon dominates the tier (ring target spinda? like come on), but i'm not sure if a ban will fix anything since roselia can do almost the same thing
 

Finchinator

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At the moment, I would like to proceed with a vote on Shadow Tag and Riolu/Prankster for sure. Baton Pass I am open to, but would like to hear more about. I do not think we need to vote on Sleep currently and I feel Garbodor deserves a lot more discussion and probably would be best to keep around for this moment.

I am going to be on a trip until Monday, but I would love for people to share any final thoughts and weigh in on what specifically we should be voting on wrt Riolu vs. Prankster and if Baton Pass should be looked into or not. I hope to have a vote going within the next week or so proceeding that, but still have to draw up a few things. This would still allow us to beat the next NU team tournament starting.
 

Finchinator

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I plan to post a vote tomorrow evening. The vote will be on the following:
  • Shadow Tag
  • Assist and Copycat
Shadow Tag is straightforward and you can read the above posts on the topic. It is also banned in many other formats.

Assist and Copycat are selected over Prankster because Prankster is still present on some teams outside of this phasing strategy such as weather. Assist and Copycat are selected over the BW UU solution of Prankster + Assist/Copycat to simplify the ban and not subscribe to any complex bans here; any uses of Assist or Copycat have only been with Prankster users in this format anyway, so there is no extra collateral.

I will be including participants in NU Classic and NU team tournaments over the last 2-3 years in this vote like we have other votes of this nature historically.

Seeing as the Assist and Copycat logic is technically "new" I want to make sure there are no serious objections, so I will let this sit until tomorrow morning and post the vote then. Speak up in the meantime if you feel strongly, thanks.
 
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