Potential Changes in BW UU

Lily

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UU Leader
BW UU is a tier with a small, dedicated playerbase that has been enjoying it in unofficial team tournaments for as long as the tier's existed, but in recentish times a number of clauses have been introduced to unofficial UU team tournaments like UUPL, UUSD and UUWC. These clauses aim to limit strategies that were discovered to be either broken or cheesy/uncompetitive after the generation ended and could no longer be tiered. They are as follows:

- Baton Pass is banned from the tier outright. Officially, it takes the same Baton Pass clause used in BW OU - only one user of Baton Pass per team, and one may not pass Speed + another stat.

- Liepard and Riolu are banned from the tier. Officially, they are of course legal. This one will probably need a little more explanation for the uninitiated so here's a quick rundown:

In Gen 5, Liepard and Riolu (and technically Purrloin) have unique traits in Prankster Assist/Copycat, which allows them to use phasing moves with priority. This means that if the opponent does not have a way to outprioritise the Liepard or Riolu user (very difficult in Liepard's case due to its blazing Speed) or a Magic Bounce user, they will be stuck in an endless loop of having their Pokemon switched out over and over until they faint to hazard damage. Removing hazards in BW UU is notoriously difficult due to its poor spinners and Xatu not being the most reliable form of hazard control, so even Stealth Rock + a single Spike can end games when Liepard and Riolu are around.

Apologies on how empty this is, I'm trying not to give any personal opinions due to my generally low experience with this tier. Since I'm not really informed, I'm going to ping anyone who has played it in recent tournaments that can give their opinions much better than I can. I just wanted to get this thread up because nobody else had and it was pointed out to me that it really should be done instead of continuing to use unofficial bans for our team tournaments when we opened up this avenue.


Please note that the above is not a voter list, I just took names from documents and probably missed a few.

If you cannot access this thread due to being badgeless, feel free to PM me and I'll help you out. Alternatively, here's a reminder that this thread exists and will allow you to post here without needing a proxy. Thanks!
 

DnB

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thanks for not tagging me Lilburr :psycry:


totally agree on the prankster and baton pass stuff, it has to go

i talked about broken victini in the past, but many other BW UU players told me, its fine....
but yea, other than that, i really feel like BW UU is a cool meta, every playstyle is viable, no other real broken mons. i'm always down to change things up, maybe let some mons drop from ou/uubl or ban something, but there are also a lot of players that just like the tier as it is and still find new strategies to this day, so i hope that this thread will open a discussion about other stuff than just broken BP/prankser :)
 

Hogg

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Agreed on both. Prankster Assist/Copycat spam is the epitome of matchup fishing and more or less completely removes anything the opponent does from consideration. It’s like those old DeNnNiSsS-pass teams where you just used the same moves in the same order almost every time regardless of what your opponent had, with the game almost completely determined on preview.

As for Baton Pass, as long as Mew is in the tier, Baton Pass shouldn’t be even with OU's BP clause. Mew is so bulky and fast and has such an insanely deep movepool that it can pass basically any stat against almost any team, running completely different sets depending on your needs. When it was legal in our subforum tours, we regularly saw games that looked like this: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5uu-272619

And in case you think the issue is just Mew, on the more gimmicky side of things, I’ve definitely had success with Ninjask-pass monospeed teams: Attract/Sub Ninjask passing off Speed to bulky sweepers like NP Mew, Work Up Stored Power Victini, SD Hera or even just something hard-hitting and fat like a Nidoqueen is really dumb.

So yeah, let’s just ban both please.
 

MrAldo

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Yeah, I believe banning both just add full benefits to the tier as a whole, removing a cheesy and unnecessary headache with very limited counterplay for the assist + roar + prankster shenanigans and banning baton pass just to avoid having to remind for every unofficial tour that it is banned and just to make it official.

Victini feel it is something that is worth discussing and gather more general information about. It is tricky cause it is an old gen and rather niche in the day and age so gathering some data on some sort of BW UU only tour or something could be nice to get a bigger general view imo, we know for sure it is extremely strong but I dunno if the general sentiment is as it was in the past.

Ban the assist roar prankster shit and baton pass for consistency sake, sure thing.
 

Bughouse

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Why wasn't Purrloin banned too from these tours if it can do the same general thing as Liepard/Riolu?
The BW NU ban is on Prankster Assist, which bans the same strategy from Purrloin. While BW NU is not BW UU, it's worth considering how that ban came about. Many people pointed out during the suspect that Purrloin is waaaaaay less good since it's slower than many priority users that Liepard has no issues with and thus can't chain Assists nearly as effectively forever. Most notably in NU, your assists are slower than Samurott's Aqua Jet and Zangoose's Quick Attack, moves that Liepard could not care less about. It's also obviously more easily worn down by priority attacks, including the ones that do bother Liepard (they just bother Purrloin that much more), like Kanga's Fake Out and Swellow's Quick Attack. Still though, the Purrloin version was recognized as a substantial enough problem to get the boot alongside its improved, evolved Liepard version, after lengthy discussions and an IRV suspect process.

If Liepard shenanigans are a big enough issue to get banned in BW UU, I would think the same is true for Purrloin. I don't think I've ever seen someone bring the strat to a BW UU game, but it's uncompetitive in every BW tier and I remember at the time of the strat's development seeing it even pick off wins in Ubers. As to its viability in BW UU in particular, I'd think it's reasonably strong, and then turning to the question of "is Purrloin as bad as Liepard," I can't think of too many relevant priority users in BW UU that outspeed Purrloin but not Liepard. Niche picks like Hitmonlee and Kabutops, I guess? In terms of priority, the biggest difference between the two in BW UU I'd imagine is how much damage they take from Weavile's Ice Shard or Arcanine's Extreme Speed, but since those are both hazard weak, I'm not sure how reliably they check Purrloin or Liepard strats anyway. Maybe the biggest difference is how easily Liepard can get around Xatu, while Purrloin doesn't do so nearly as well? Still, this is kinda splitting hairs. Against many BW UU teams, Purrloin performs nearly, or even equally, as well as Liepard. I'd frankly like to see the NU Assist and Prankster ban become a BW-wide ban from all metas.

Also, required viewing for anyone who doesn't even understand what the Liepard/Purrloin strategy is...
See some examples of Purrloin performing during the NU suspect years ago, nearly as well, or in some cases equally as well, as Liepard would have.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nucurrent-55063439
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nucurrent-55098039
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nucurrent-55228449
 
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DnB

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The BW NU ban is on Prankster Assist, which bans the same strategy from Purrloin. While BW NU is not BW UU, it's worth considering how that ban came about. Many people pointed out during the suspect that Purrloin is waaaaaay less good since it's slower than many priority users that Liepard has no issues with and thus can't chain Assists nearly as effectively forever. Most notably in NU, your assists are slower than Samurott's Aqua Jet and Zangoose's Quick Attack, moves that Liepard could not care less about. It's also obviously more easily worn down by priority attacks, including the ones that do bother Liepard (they just bother Purrloin that much more), like Kanga's Fake Out and Swellow's Quick Attack. Still though, the Purrloin version was recognized as a substantial enough problem to get the boot alongside its improved, evolved Liepard version, after lengthy discussions and an IRV suspect process.

If Liepard shenanigans are a big enough issue to get banned in BW UU, I would think the same is true for Purrloin. I don't think I've ever seen someone bring the strat to a BW UU game, but it's uncompetitive in every BW tier and I remember at the time of the strat's development seeing it even pick off wins in Ubers. As to its viability in BW UU in particular, I'd think it's reasonably strong, and then turning to the question of "is Purrloin as bad as Liepard," I can't think of too many relevant priority users in BW UU that outspeed Purrloin but not Liepard. Niche picks like Hitmonlee and Kabutops, I guess? In terms of priority, the biggest difference between the two in BW UU I'd imagine is how much damage they take from Weavile's Ice Shard or Arcanine's Extreme Speed, but since those are both hazard weak, I'm not sure how reliably they check Purrloin or Liepard strats anyway. Maybe the biggest difference is how easily Liepard can get around Xatu, while Purrloin doesn't do so nearly as well? Still, this is kinda splitting hairs. Against many BW UU teams, Purrloin performs nearly, or even equally, as well as Liepard. I'd frankly like to see the NU Assist and Prankster ban become a BW-wide ban from all metas.

Also, required viewing for anyone who doesn't even understand what the Liepard/Purrloin strategy is...
See some examples of Purrloin performing during the NU suspect years ago, nearly as well, or in some cases equally as well, as Liepard would have.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nucurrent-55063439
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nucurrent-55098039
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nucurrent-55228449
i actually found a counter to this strat
use a team without hazards :blobthumbsup:
 

Bughouse

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i actually found a counter to this strat
use a team without hazards :blobthumbsup:
Some people literally said stuff like that at the time...

The actual strategies are more like the following:
1) Only use a Stealth Rock user that also learns Rapid Spin, so when they double into Ditto to steal Rocks from your team once they've phased the rocker in, they can't actually set rocks and keep them up. Just spin.
2) Use a mon that will outrun and ohko a Ditto scarfed version of your rocker and double into it (i.e. in NU, use a Mold Breaker Sawk to ohko the transformed Sturdy Golem)

Against a more passive mon like Purrloin, these actually work. A Purrloin team will pretty much never beat these set ups. Riolu still might, but that's another story...

But against Liepard, even these sorts of teams can still lose, so long as Liepard has a target it can set up Nasty Plot against. An example of a team like #2 still losing is here:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oriserver-nu-48877
Even though rocks never went up, because Liepard could always eventually get to +6 against a Musharna that couldn't break its sub, it was still a close to unloseable matchup for the Liepard.

I'm not sure there's really a direct equivalent in BW UU, but the closest is probably Taunt Wisp Mew? Even things like defensive Cofagrigus's Shadow Ball or Alomomola's Scald can break a sub from Liepard.
 
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Liepard/Riolu and BP both deserve the ban, idt there is a lot to say, its MU fishing, nothing more, nothing else, nothing good.

I dont think Victini deserve a ban, it isnt broken. 25% sr on a tier where spinning can be very hard, not hitting hard if scarf, kinda """slow""" if played LO/specs/band or idk else. It's just dumb :mehowth:

I think the tier is fine as it is, as DnB said, everything is playable ( except Kingdra. Kingdra sucks, lets admit it. ), making it kinda fun, while staying competitive.
 

pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
If there's a general agreement to ban Assist Prankster in some form, I'd suggest figuring how to ban it.

  1. Ban Liepard and Riolu
  2. Ban Liepard, Riolu, and Purrloin
  3. Ban Assist + Prankster on the same Pokemon
Bughouse - if I understand your posts above correctly, you’re saying BW NU did option 3. Can you confirm that and can you tell me why they opted for a complex ban over a simple Pokemon ban of Riolu and Purrloin (and Liepard if Liepard is otherwise legal in BW NU).
I suspect the reason is this is a purely uncompetitive strategy on all Pokemon and therefore we should ban the strategy.

If this is the reasoning, I agree with the logic but why is the outcome then a complex ban instead of a clause like Evasion Clause and Endless Battle Clause. I don’t mean to hold things up for the sake of holding things up (I personally hate this strategy and personally hate this tier but as the winner of BW UU Cup in 2019 via lol1z VoltTurn and do care about UU old gens). I’d assume the only reason it’s

I.e, two separate questions that haven’t been adequately addressed if we want to ban this strategy:

1) Should it be a complex ban or a Pokemon ban of Liepard, Riolu and (potentially) Purrloin
2) If complex, what’s the justification of a complex ban and how do we differentiate it from things like Evasion clause

I also support a Spikes ban in this tier but won’t push on it unless someone else supports me as not to derail.

Torn on Victini but think it deserves a vote, even if I’m not sure how I’d vote (presuming id get to vote...?)
 

Bughouse

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If there's a general agreement to ban Assist Prankster in some form, I'd suggest figuring how to ban it.

  1. Ban Liepard and Riolu
  2. Ban Liepard, Riolu, and Purrloin
  3. Ban Assist + Prankster on the same Pokemon
Bughouse - if I understand your posts above correctly, you’re saying BW NU did option 3. Can you confirm that and can you tell me why they opted for a complex ban over a simple Pokemon ban of Riolu and Purrloin (and Liepard if Liepard is otherwise legal in BW NU).
I suspect the reason is this is a purely uncompetitive strategy on all Pokemon and therefore we should ban the strategy.

If this is the reasoning, I agree with the logic but why is the outcome then a complex ban instead of a clause like Evasion Clause and Endless Battle Clause. I don’t mean to hold things up for the sake of holding things up (I personally hate this strategy and personally hate this tier but as the winner of BW UU Cup in 2019 via lol1z VoltTurn and do care about UU old gens). I’d assume the only reason it’s

I.e, two separate questions that haven’t been adequately addressed if we want to ban this strategy:

1) Should it be a complex ban or a Pokemon ban of Liepard, Riolu and (potentially) Purrloin
2) If complex, what’s the justification of a complex ban and how do we differentiate it from things like Evasion clause
Prankster + Assist was the chosen ban because Purrloin was deemed to still be effective with the strategy (in NU - I suspect in UU too), so just banning Liepard alone wouldn't have solved the problem. Moreover, Liepard was viewed as a desirable influence on the NU metagame with its other sets (i.e. Prankster Thunder Wave and Encore to keep set up sweepers in check), so a simple Pokemon ban on both Liepard and Purrloin wasn't even really a desirable option either. A "clause" as opposed to a "ban" is mostly semantics and probably just wasn't a big factor anyone was thinking of nearly a decade ago when BW NU banned it. While it's 100% uncompetitive since it pretty much decides games at matchup, and it should be banned in all BW metas, it just never made as much of a splash in other metas, so I don't think anyone was trying to develop an overarching Smogon-wide clause. I don't remember anyone pushing to get it banned elsewhere. In NU it wasn't just an uncompetitive team, but frankly a good team. You could top the ladder with it... in other metas, there's considerably more counterplay that would make bringing an Assist Liepard team higher risk. Should probably still get banned for its uncompetitiveness though, even if not strictly broken in metas higher than NU (I do think it's probably broken in UU personally).

Riolu was never banned from any BW meta and is unaffected by the BW NU ban that targeted Liepard/Purrloin, since it operates on a different principle from Liepard/Purrloin. Riolu doesn't require an entire janky team built around it. Riolu can be slotted in along with basically any 5 that make sense to support the strategy. It uses Roar itself, and then uses Copycat to reuse its own Roars. This has noticeably more counterplay than the Liepard Assist strategy, which basically removes all team interaction and just wins or loses at matchup. Riolu by contrast requires actual work to set up: 1) you need to get and keep up hazards prior to Riolu shuffling, 2) you need to find an opportunity to get Riolu a safe Roar, since it will have negative priority on its first one, and it has Riolu's stats..., and 3) it can be broken up by any faster priority move, which in Riolu's case is a decent number of of Pokemon, but even beyond Pokemon, I really mean ANY move with Priority. While Assist will always call Roar/Whirlwind for Liepard/Purrloin, Copycat Riolu will copy the last move used. So you can break Riolu's chain with moves that can't break Liepard's, such as Protect, Fake Out, Sucker Punch, etc. Even Protect on a passive WishTect mon is a potential hindrance to Riolu, breaking the chain and forcing Riolu to reset the chain with a negative priority Roar, whereas against Liepard all it costs is one extra PP.

Because Riolu involves at least some actual gameplay interaction (unlike Liepard/Purrloin strats) and thus is less obviously uncompetitive, and because I haven't actually seen many games of Riolu in BW UU, I haven't posted about whether or not Riolu should be banned in BW UU. I do know it's stupid in NU and have been trying to get it banned there :)
 

sanguine

friendly fire
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one of the worst feelings in the world whilst playing this tier is building a perfectly good team against the rest of the metagame, only for charizardlover777 to bring a liepard team and win on preview because you forgot to bring Xatu (who is pretty middling to bad in almost all matchups), and the anxiety of such a thing occurring is super overbearing when prepping for a tournament. i wholeheartedly support action in regards to liepard / riolu shenaniganry.

when it becomes to baton pass, i am in lukewarm support of such a ban. i think it leads to certain uncompetitive and totally advantageous 50/50s against a lot of builds. however, at the same time it can be sort of hard to implement in practice beyond the standard sixes engineered by Chill Shadow and requires a small amount of thought to setup properly in game. i still lean towards ban, but am open to having my mind changed.
 
The only thing that I believe that should be banned is Liepard.
Various people in this thread already contributed to why but now onto the next topic: Riolu.

I don't think it should get banned since unlike Liepard it is very inconsistent. It doesn't automatically win games.
It needs to get the Roar off first, then hope the opposing team doesn't have a Pokemon with Protect, Sucker Punch, any kind of priority on it. It also has to tank a hit to get it successfully of, which is way more difficult vs. offensive teams than it is against stall.
I rather would preserve it due to it not having absolutely no counter plays at all (unlike Liepard, where you legitimately have to run no hazards and carry the likes of Cobalion or whatever else resists dark 4 times) to have a chance. But if the consens is to ban it because it is "annoying" then we may as well ban everything that is annoying. I also don't mind if it doesn't get banned, just wanted to talk about it and state that I don't believe it should get banned.

I don't think Baton Pass should be banned from the tier. The limitations we have due to the BW OU Clause that is intact makes it not overpowered if you ask me. Passing stats without speed boosts don't have to be the crucial end for the player facing them. Mew may be the best passer but struggles sometimes to have the correct moves to use for it.
If it doesn't pack enough speed it is prone to getting taunted. If it is too fast the reciever could potentially take damage. If it is running Substitute it may lack Taunt to prevent an opposing Roar/Whirlwind User to phaze it out or even get it's stats nullified by a Haze User. If it does carry both Substitute and Taunt it has the issue of not being able to touch anything in a last Pokemon situation. The list goes on. It also has to pick between what it desires to tank. Physical attacks? Special attacks? What does it let the opponent do in return although this can be done by having it positioned well enough so it is up against something that can't touch it which led's to the next question: Can it tank the hit from what is coming in?

If you could show maybe a different replay than this one I would be pleased, since the team used by PDC is pretty old and was made during the actual BW metagame. Todays meta is different (not only because of the fact that during BW Hail and Chandelure were legal but also because the mentality of people changed regarding building nowadays in general as well as for this tier).

One of the recent replays (it's from 2020) from above team from the same user is the following, showing that it's not an autowin: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5uu-1241858131

Then again I don't know if his opponent knew the Mew was Nasty Pass or not, since depending on the information he had it could have led to the sequence of plays he went for. Either way, I don't think it should get banned.

About Victini: Please do not ban it. It's not broken. Entry hazards are literally omnipresent, pairing it with Xatu won't prevent actual hazards since Druddigon is a common Stealth Rock user these days and almost always runs Mold Breaker to get them guranteed off against Xatu teams. CB Victini has to speed tie a lot of things in the tier (Flygon, Shaymin, Mew, opposing Victini), Scarf Victini lacks the punch and special variants have the issue of not really getting past special walls unless certain conditions (like with any other special attacker) are met.

And since this topic may come up at one point: Sleep.
I think sleep is fine in BW UU since the very few actual users of which Roserade is the most common one, followed by Venomoth, Amoongus and the very rarely seen Smeargle, isn't much of a burden for the tier. The former two have to rely on hitting, where as the latter two may have a guranteed sleep but aren't really that great in the tier itself.
 

Hogg

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If you could show maybe a different replay than this one I would be pleased
I gotcha fam: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5uu-243856

In all seriousness, this is literally one team, and it’s one that I feel like is pretty well known at this point, given that Chill Shadow and I have been spamming it for almost half a decade… and it still has the ability to farm wins despite basically everyone knowing it at this point. All of the BW tours I’ve played in recently have had BP banned, so I don’t have any recent replays, but I’m pretty confident that this isn’t the only team structure that works. Also, NastyPassing is always terrifying, especially because NP Mew is just a decent mon all on its own, but it’s far from the only way Mew can pass. How does the counterplay change when we start looking at things like Taunt Mew instead of Sub to punish teams that rely on Roar or Haze as their BP response? And what about sets that pass things other than NP, like SDpass, or Rock Polish into something like a bulky SD Hera or Stored Power Victini? None of these violate the current BP clause and trying to account for all of them on a team is really obnoxious.

I’ll admit I might be biased here, because I think Baton Pass is just a fundamentally uncompetitive move, so I kind of hate it everywhere. Pokemon is very much balanced around the idea of limited access to certain moves, especially those that boost stats, and BP just breaks that idea entirely. So yeah, I’ll probably argue for it to be banned from most of the metas I actively care about. But unless we’re interested in talking about banning Mew, I do think it’s especially dangerous in BW UU.

Re: Victini, I’d probably vote to keep it if I got a vote as I tend to agree with the “it’s not broken” crowd. It’s crazy good, but it’s always going to be limited by being rocks weak in the most hazard-centric tier I’ve ever played, especially given that its best move drops its Speed and defenses, forcing you to switch in and out a lot. On paper it’s basically uncounterable, and it’s definitely a big deal in the builder, but in practice I think it’s much more manageable than it looks.

That said, “Victini is overwhelming” is a common enough refrain that I wouldn’t push back against testing it if people really felt like it was necessary. I will point out that late in BW UU’s career, it did have a public suspect and was almost unanimously voted to stay (literally only a single dissenting vote). That was the better part of a decade ago, and while I tend to believe we should respect public suspect tests whenever possible, things have changed an awful lot since then. If a significant majority of the active BW UU players think it’s broken, I’d be willing to see it tested. I just think several of its flaws tend to get swept under the rug when people talk about it.

EDIT: choolio pointed out on Discord that I cherrypicked a replay that was 4+ years old and again vs a super old team. He ain’t wrong, I pretty much posted that one because I thought it was funny given the discussion. I’m struggling to find recent replays, because we’ve had BP banned in tours for so long. I’ll keep looking. That said, in my searches, I did find one from a roomtour showing how speed passing can also be super toxic in BW UU: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5uu-1045039146
 
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Lily

wouldn't that be fine, dear
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UU Leader
Hi, so UUSD is starting soon and I wanna get this wrapped up in some form before then. There's been minimal opposition beyond choolio and Kink's posts, and I think it'd be silly to ignore the many other posts here, so unless there's significant reason not to I'm intending to set up a vote on Baton Pass and Prankster + Assist/Copycat (tentatively, I'm still not sure what the smartest move is there given BW OU banned Assist already but that doesn't address the Riolu thing). Victini/Chandelure/whatever else still don't have enough support so they can be talked about down the line, but nothing will be happening now.

This will be kept open for discussion until Monday, November 1st. If you want to get opposition, support or other suggestions in last minute, now is the time to do so. A reminder that you can request posting permission here if you don't have it.
 

Lily

wouldn't that be fine, dear
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UU Leader
I forgot about this, but here's the preliminary voter list. All tours required 3 games played w/ at least 1 win, or semifinals in the case of BW Cup.


I have three questions following up from this:

a) should the Cup requirements perhaps be lowered by 1 round?
b) should UUFPL be included?
c) are there any other concerns with this list that I should know about?

I'm only leaving this open for about 24 hours (assuming no objections), a little less because I don't really wanna do this at 2am tomorrow, so that things can actually happen before UUSD, but if concerns are raised we can just suspend the BW ruling for UUSD anyway so no big deal.

The vote will be on:
1) Baton Pass
2) Prankster + Assist/Copycat*


*unless someone provides a better alternative /shrug
 
I forgot about this, but here's the preliminary voter list. All tours required 3 games played w/ at least 1 win, or semifinals in the case of BW Cup.


I have three questions following up from this:

a) should the Cup requirements perhaps be lowered by 1 round?
b) should UUFPL be included?
c) are there any other concerns with this list that I should know about?

I'm only leaving this open for about 24 hours (assuming no objections), a little less because I don't really wanna do this at 2am tomorrow, so that things can actually happen before UUSD, but if concerns are raised we can just suspend the BW ruling for UUSD anyway so no big deal.

The vote will be on:
1) Baton Pass
2) Prankster + Assist/Copycat*


*unless someone provides a better alternative /shrug
Yes, UUFPL should be included. Players like dnb who absolutely dominate pretty much every single lower BW tier and went undefeated in uufpl should be given a chance. Perhaps players in UUFPL who got a slightly higher win percentage then in actual UUPL.
 

r0ady

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One win off three games seems a little light for UUPL but the list is pretty small already and it’s not like there’s any names on the list who don’t “deserve” a vote so I’m not in opposition to it. As for UUFPL I agree with SOMALIA in that they should be included with a higher win percentage, if anything just to fluff up the voter numbers.

edit: also semis is as far as it should go for cup, making quarters is even easier than the one win req for UUPL
 

Lily

wouldn't that be fine, dear
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I'm still gonna leave this open for the next ~5-6 hours before setting up a vote but I ended up deciding to include UUFPL, 2 wins + 4 games necessary to account for it being a lower competition tour. Also included BW PL @ the standard 1 win 3 games, which I forgot about beforehand.


So the final voter pool is now 34 players, which I think is fine. I'll put the thread up around midnight +0.
 

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