Boomburst hits your ally while Hyper Voice doesn't. They're certainly not redundant for that reason.
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Format Discussion Pokemon Sword & Shield Random Doubles Battle Sets
- Thread starter Annika
- Start date
ah, it's been a long time since I've been up to date with details like that, ty. this is FFA though, so I assume the "ally" doesn't really apply? like I just said, I'm not 100% sure of how the format works (I assumed there were allies at first but to my knowledge using moves like the screens, tailwind, etc. only boost you and no other player).
Ah, unfortunately FFA is still in alpha and uses Random Doubles sets as a temporary placeholder. There's no deadline on when catered FFA sets will be created since there's lots of them to create and it's a fairly low priority given the technical inability to create a ranked ladder, but FFA existing isn't being used to inform or change Random Doubles sets in the meantime.
Hyper Voice + Boomburst Exploud is a sight better than Floral Healing, Helping Hand, Defog, Draining Kiss Comfey in FFA :P
got it, I'm content with the format existing in the first place so I'll just wait for however it'll take to update things. thanks!
Hello everyone! I just found this thread; I've been playing doubles randbats for quite some time. I'm like around 100th right now on the ladder.
First off, tremendous thanks to everyone who has worked hard to create this awesome format. It's a ton of fun and is very skill-based while still being fresh and new each time.
I have a couple suggestions on sets and improvements.
First... is there anything we can do that might decrease the prevalence of Sitrus Berry? It's definitely a meme at this point among the people I play randbats with. There are so many great items that don't see use, like Expert Belt, 33% pinch berries, Wide Lens (on appropriate mons), Lum Berry (the big one), type-resist berries (especially for 4x weak pokes), Leftovers/Black Sludge, Weakness Policy, etc.
I would also like to see more variety on some sets for some pokes. Is there a way that, for instance, Rotom-Frost could have a scarf set with switcheroo? It's very predictable to always have the same old blunder policy set. Nevermeltice on Glaceon could be nice sometimes. Dual Wingbeat isn't THAT bad - poor Ninjask could stand to sometimes have an item! Flareon could run a scarf mixed Flash Fire set (or Band, or Specs) to stunt on people expecting to have a free turn while it protects.
Third, I think introducing a few good NFE's could be nice. Eviolite-holding Tangela, Magmar, Electabuzz, Rhydon, etc. can still deal some damage or have some utility and broaden the pool a little.
Finally, I think a couple of pokemon are just too good for their level (and a few are too bad). Off the top of my head, the reason people don't use Sableye in teambuilding is because it's just outclassed, not because it's bad. Xatu offers tremendous value if it's not a lead because you can completely pants someone who's not expecting it. Drapion is very hard to exploit when it's on the other team. Talonflame has never been a disappointment; it is very very good as a mixed attacker and its priority moves are great, too. On the other hand, a couple could probably stand to increase; Lucario has never felt good in any matchups I've played with or against it. There are also very few words to describe how bad Galarian Stunfisk is. I would recommend both of them to move up slightly.
Overall, this is a fun, awesome, balanced metagame and I love it! Thanks again!
First off, tremendous thanks to everyone who has worked hard to create this awesome format. It's a ton of fun and is very skill-based while still being fresh and new each time.
I have a couple suggestions on sets and improvements.
First... is there anything we can do that might decrease the prevalence of Sitrus Berry? It's definitely a meme at this point among the people I play randbats with. There are so many great items that don't see use, like Expert Belt, 33% pinch berries, Wide Lens (on appropriate mons), Lum Berry (the big one), type-resist berries (especially for 4x weak pokes), Leftovers/Black Sludge, Weakness Policy, etc.
I would also like to see more variety on some sets for some pokes. Is there a way that, for instance, Rotom-Frost could have a scarf set with switcheroo? It's very predictable to always have the same old blunder policy set. Nevermeltice on Glaceon could be nice sometimes. Dual Wingbeat isn't THAT bad - poor Ninjask could stand to sometimes have an item! Flareon could run a scarf mixed Flash Fire set (or Band, or Specs) to stunt on people expecting to have a free turn while it protects.
Third, I think introducing a few good NFE's could be nice. Eviolite-holding Tangela, Magmar, Electabuzz, Rhydon, etc. can still deal some damage or have some utility and broaden the pool a little.
Finally, I think a couple of pokemon are just too good for their level (and a few are too bad). Off the top of my head, the reason people don't use Sableye in teambuilding is because it's just outclassed, not because it's bad. Xatu offers tremendous value if it's not a lead because you can completely pants someone who's not expecting it. Drapion is very hard to exploit when it's on the other team. Talonflame has never been a disappointment; it is very very good as a mixed attacker and its priority moves are great, too. On the other hand, a couple could probably stand to increase; Lucario has never felt good in any matchups I've played with or against it. There are also very few words to describe how bad Galarian Stunfisk is. I would recommend both of them to move up slightly.
Overall, this is a fun, awesome, balanced metagame and I love it! Thanks again!
Ooh, one last thing. Moody sets are a bit ... too hit or miss. Is there a way to get them to lose Substitute (but get bumped up a level or three)?
I'll send the other suggestions to the staff, but I'll take the opportunity to answer this one in particular. We don't nerf sets by giving them less optimal movests. We balance by level, so no, if Substitute is good for Moody Pokémon, it will stay. Balancing is made by levels, and yes, Moody by nature is meant to be "hit or miss". So, sorry, no changes are planned regarding these sets in particular.
so i had a virizion with a set of close combat, coaching, stone edge and protect. i think its very bad a pokemon like that doesnt have his good grass stab move altouhgh he can run many.
The philosophy of random battles is that Pokémon should be able to perform at their best fulfilling authentic roles that they can usually fulfil. As a result, item diversity isn't a primary concern. It just so happens that in random doubles, Sitrus Berry tends to be the best item for most Pokémon to use, and that's certainly seen in Smogon Doubles, the format that random doubles is based on.
- Expert Belt is always outclassed by Life Orb in doubles. Doubles is a hyper-offense format by design -- it's why it's used in official tournaments like VGC because games don't take very long -- so the 10% recoil damage from Life Orb is always a good trade for more power behind all of your moves than even a SE hit with Expert Belt.
- The tradeoff between 33% recovery that triggers at 1/4 health remaining and 25% recovery that triggers at 1/2 health makes Sitrus Berry always better. An extra 8% of health is rarely the difference between surviving another hit and not, whereas being put on 26% of health and not recovering any health at all will almost always mean your Pokémon dies next turn.
- Wide Lens does have very niche circumstances where it's better than any other item, but I don't think any Pokémon in the format currently reside in those niche circumstances. What do you think it should be used on?
- Lum Berry suffers from the relative scarcity of status in doubles. It would do nothing more often than not, and items are very important in doubles so that's a huge opportunity cost. Life Orb and Sitrus are far more consistent than Lum, so they're used more.
- Leftovers / Black Sludge are very bad in doubles. Pokémon are rarely alive for long enough to recover more HP than they do via Sitrus due to its offensive nature.
- Weakness Policy is used on a few mons where it's appropriate, what else do you think needs it and it will be considered?
NFEs are considered when they aren't just a lite version of their evolution. Tangela, Electabuzz, Magmar, and Rhydon would all fill the same role as their evolution, so there's no reason for them to be included. Singles in particular has lots of NFEs, but there aren't any that are seen as worth adding in doubles right now. I did also suggest Sneasel off the back of your post, but it was determined that that isn't worthwhile either.
Levels in random doubles are actually determined and modified frequently by their winrates. Pokémon are at the appropriate level for their average performance, and that system won't be changed.
First off, THANK YOU so much for this extremely insightful and comprehensive response. I don't know how well sincerity comes across on the internet, but I am completely dead serious on this; thank you.
Expert Belt has a huge benefit that Life Orb doesn't; it can be used to bluff having a different item. When you get one-shot by a Life Orb-boosted attack, you know what the item is immediately. When it's boosted by Expert Belt? Not at all. Could be berry, could be AV, could be scarf/band/specs, could be anything.
Rotom forms (though not fan or base) with their specialty attack, Will'O'Wisp, electrowebs and Thunder could exploit it. Tsareena with Triple Axel and High Jump Kick, or frankly almost anything with Triple Axel (where wide lens turns it from ~70% to ~97%) like Weavile or Froslass. Venusaur has often used it in VGC as well for Sleep Powder and Leaf Storm. If you really want to get crazy, Hustle pokes could use it, too, but I think that's a reach!
This is definitely too broad. There are a fair few pokemon that love leftovers in doubles. Lugia is a big one (most other pokes that rely on having full health are too offensive, like Lunala or Dragonite), but other pokemon that love sitting on the field for a long time as well (Ferrothorn, calm mind Kyogre, calm mind Tapu Fini, Turtonator, Bronzong, etc.) can really make good use of it. Yes, Sitrus is better for most pokemon, but not for all of them.
Those Multiscale users would be a big one--Lugia absolutely should have policy a fair percentage of the time, as should most other bulky Ubers. Dragonite and Lunala and N-DW and Filter pokes have the ability to survive a super-effective attack and to strike back at doubled strength.
Fair enough! I don't think it's as cut and dried as you say it is; I think that having so few sets for some pokes makes them eminently predictable. For instance, even the threat of sash on a Ninjask with Swords Dance and Baton Pass would change the way people play around it. The fact that Arctovish is always the same old blunder policy blizzard + bolt beak set makes playing around it way easier than it would be if scarf sets existed for it. (BTW, maybe these sets do exist and I haven't seen them yet! My apologies if so.) Calm Mind Lefties Kyogre, specs Kyogre, scarf Groudon, offensive Grimmsnarl, specs/scarf Spectrier, WP Glastrier, Trick Room + Curse Mimikyu, Ally Switch Rapidash, power herb meteor beam Omastar/Archeops/Lunala/Eternatus, etc. are perhaps not strictly the best sets but can take huge advantage of the element of surprise.
Ehh, Electabuzz is a special attacker while Electavire is physical, Magmar can be mixed while Magmortar is almost always special, and Sneasel has Inner Focus which is a huge niche. There are others, too - I totally forgot Torracat, which is very very distinct from Incineroar.
That is awesome! Is there a public database anywhere of that data? I'd be insanely curious to look through! Again, thank you so much for the information.
You have yourself an awesome day. Thanks again.
Sorry again to not answer the rest, not a Dubs expert. But that information is public and posted monthly on this thread on this same subforum!
Hi! Since I was bored recently, I decided to try out some Random Doubles, after playing a fair share of VGC and a little bit of DOU. Overall I was super happy with all of the sets, and was really enjoying myself. However, sometimes I felt that I had sets that basically set me up to lose or felt like it was lacking somewhere. After discovering this thread(in plight of more Randbats tournaments) I decided to start compiling a bunch of sets I think are weird/unoptimal/could be cool to change and put them together for you all to consider! (Since I'm impatient I'll just add more in a different post as I go)
[Whimsicott] Forced Tailwind. In VGC and DOU, Whimsicott is iconic for its ability to let off Prankster Tailwinds, immediately giving the user's side double speed. I think this is vital to Whimsicott's success as its poor offensive and defense stats means that its only use is being a strong support/tech Pokemon. I personally think that Whimsicott should have forced Tailwind as its main usage and biggest strength is speed control, and not getting a Whimsicott with Speed control is often a huge slap to the face and sometimes feels like a wasted slot.
[Indeedee-F] Forced Follow Me. Same logic as above, except with a different move and Pokemon. Indeedee's main strength in Doubles formats is its ability to redirect hits onto itself, and its Psychic Terrain to prevent prankster moves and priority. However, the fact that there are 5 possible moves on Indeedee means that there's a chance to get an Indeedee without Follow Me, which is definitely a huge slap to the face. The amount of times I have seen a player lose to an Indeedee-F not having Follow me is quite high, and I feel like forcing Follow Me is a must. Its kinda like getting a Rayquaza without Dragon Ascent.
[Yveltal] Possible chance for Snarl, especially on AV sets. This suggestion is a bit more of a speculation compared to the previous 2, and isn't a concrete idea that I think 100% needs to be changed. In VGC 2022, one of the most common AV Yveltal sets consists of Yveltal using Snarl, Sucker Punch, Oblivion Wing, and Foul Play. This is allows it to not only be very bulky, but allows it to cover for WP/Swords Dance users, have a priority move, and a move that makes special attacks lower, all while having a recovery move and both STABs. When playing with/against Yveltal, Snarl is always a good asset for the user to have to nerf incoming special attacks and act a strong spread damage (In combination with Dark Aura). Overall I think that Snarl is a strong Doubles move on Yveltal, and should be considered
[Kartana] Possible chance for Aerial Ace to be on AV sets. Ok, I know, this seems like a somewhat random pick. Kartana honestly doesn't need the coverage from this low BP move, but what it needs is some Speed Control. Speed Control is so much more important in Doubles as being able to outspeed your opponent can potentially lead to a huge snowball. Despite Kartana already having a very high speed stat, with the combination of Webs, Strike, Tailwind, etc. its very possible that naturally slower Pokemon can outspeed and KO/heavily chip Kartana. I think that giving Kartana max Airstream can greatly improve its sweeping potential, as giving it a Max Move that acts as speed control is very convinient, as you don't need any other Pokemon to provide that for you. With Kartana being able to outspeed everything, its already strong attack stat + Beast Boost will help its sweeping potential greatly.
[Kingdra] Forced Hurricane, Dual STAB on Lorb sets. I know completely forced sets are generally frowned upon, but I feel like Kingdra might deserve an exception here. When Kingdra gets Life Orb, its turns are already limited as it takes 10% chip after each move, not to mention that its bulk isn't that noteworthy. I think that when it gets Life Orb, it should fully be focused on deal damage and setting up for a sweep. Despite Kingdra already getting Swift Swim, the extra coverage + ally +1 Speed is really nice to have on Kingdra, and will allow its sweeping potential to increase.
[Alolan-Ninetales] This one isn't as necessary, but I feel like every set should have A-Veil because its such a strong defensive tool., allowing ally Pokeon to live more double-ups.
[Galvantula] Mandatory Sticky Webs. Sticky Webs are a key component of Random Battles speed control, as well as being long-lasting and an annoying threat. Somehow I rolled Galvantula without Webs which would normally be incredibly disappointing and unfair (had I not had Ribombee in the back), in addiiton to making the Pokemon feel quite useless.
[Venusaur] Mandatory Sleep Powder, remove Leech Seed. Leech Seed on non-stall Pokemon is a very bad choice, as it is way too slow paced in a doubles format, where every turn is much faster paced. In addition, a guaranteed Sleep Powder is huge for a Pokemon like Venusaur because it would allow it to completely halt Pokemon with at least a turn of sleep, which is VASTLY more useful than Leech Seed, which doesn't help as a support move, nor does it deal a sizable amount of damage.
(General conclusion, I think some Pokemon should have forced moves, especially if they are mainly a support)
Edit: I think Sitrus Berry is definitely an overused item in this format, and I think that it should used a little bit less in exchange for other items, it makes the metagame more unique and its a little bit boring just going into a battle and assuming every mon basically has 125% HP. I can't name any specific Pokemon off of the top of my head but I would be happy to work with others to make more unique sets for some Pokemon instead of just slapping Sitrus on everything
[Whimsicott] Forced Tailwind. In VGC and DOU, Whimsicott is iconic for its ability to let off Prankster Tailwinds, immediately giving the user's side double speed. I think this is vital to Whimsicott's success as its poor offensive and defense stats means that its only use is being a strong support/tech Pokemon. I personally think that Whimsicott should have forced Tailwind as its main usage and biggest strength is speed control, and not getting a Whimsicott with Speed control is often a huge slap to the face and sometimes feels like a wasted slot.
[Indeedee-F] Forced Follow Me. Same logic as above, except with a different move and Pokemon. Indeedee's main strength in Doubles formats is its ability to redirect hits onto itself, and its Psychic Terrain to prevent prankster moves and priority. However, the fact that there are 5 possible moves on Indeedee means that there's a chance to get an Indeedee without Follow Me, which is definitely a huge slap to the face. The amount of times I have seen a player lose to an Indeedee-F not having Follow me is quite high, and I feel like forcing Follow Me is a must. Its kinda like getting a Rayquaza without Dragon Ascent.
[Yveltal] Possible chance for Snarl, especially on AV sets. This suggestion is a bit more of a speculation compared to the previous 2, and isn't a concrete idea that I think 100% needs to be changed. In VGC 2022, one of the most common AV Yveltal sets consists of Yveltal using Snarl, Sucker Punch, Oblivion Wing, and Foul Play. This is allows it to not only be very bulky, but allows it to cover for WP/Swords Dance users, have a priority move, and a move that makes special attacks lower, all while having a recovery move and both STABs. When playing with/against Yveltal, Snarl is always a good asset for the user to have to nerf incoming special attacks and act a strong spread damage (In combination with Dark Aura). Overall I think that Snarl is a strong Doubles move on Yveltal, and should be considered
[Kartana] Possible chance for Aerial Ace to be on AV sets. Ok, I know, this seems like a somewhat random pick. Kartana honestly doesn't need the coverage from this low BP move, but what it needs is some Speed Control. Speed Control is so much more important in Doubles as being able to outspeed your opponent can potentially lead to a huge snowball. Despite Kartana already having a very high speed stat, with the combination of Webs, Strike, Tailwind, etc. its very possible that naturally slower Pokemon can outspeed and KO/heavily chip Kartana. I think that giving Kartana max Airstream can greatly improve its sweeping potential, as giving it a Max Move that acts as speed control is very convinient, as you don't need any other Pokemon to provide that for you. With Kartana being able to outspeed everything, its already strong attack stat + Beast Boost will help its sweeping potential greatly.
[Kingdra] Forced Hurricane, Dual STAB on Lorb sets. I know completely forced sets are generally frowned upon, but I feel like Kingdra might deserve an exception here. When Kingdra gets Life Orb, its turns are already limited as it takes 10% chip after each move, not to mention that its bulk isn't that noteworthy. I think that when it gets Life Orb, it should fully be focused on deal damage and setting up for a sweep. Despite Kingdra already getting Swift Swim, the extra coverage + ally +1 Speed is really nice to have on Kingdra, and will allow its sweeping potential to increase.
[Alolan-Ninetales] This one isn't as necessary, but I feel like every set should have A-Veil because its such a strong defensive tool., allowing ally Pokeon to live more double-ups.
[Galvantula] Mandatory Sticky Webs. Sticky Webs are a key component of Random Battles speed control, as well as being long-lasting and an annoying threat. Somehow I rolled Galvantula without Webs which would normally be incredibly disappointing and unfair (had I not had Ribombee in the back), in addiiton to making the Pokemon feel quite useless.
[Venusaur] Mandatory Sleep Powder, remove Leech Seed. Leech Seed on non-stall Pokemon is a very bad choice, as it is way too slow paced in a doubles format, where every turn is much faster paced. In addition, a guaranteed Sleep Powder is huge for a Pokemon like Venusaur because it would allow it to completely halt Pokemon with at least a turn of sleep, which is VASTLY more useful than Leech Seed, which doesn't help as a support move, nor does it deal a sizable amount of damage.
(General conclusion, I think some Pokemon should have forced moves, especially if they are mainly a support)
Edit: I think Sitrus Berry is definitely an overused item in this format, and I think that it should used a little bit less in exchange for other items, it makes the metagame more unique and its a little bit boring just going into a battle and assuming every mon basically has 125% HP. I can't name any specific Pokemon off of the top of my head but I would be happy to work with others to make more unique sets for some Pokemon instead of just slapping Sitrus on everything
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Is there a reason why klutz lopunny runs iron ball in place of lagging tail? Lagging tail seems like a better choice to trick onto your opponent to me.
I realise that iron ball grounds the target, but lopunny doesn't learn any ground type moves, so for this to be useful you either need to have a partner pokemon with a ground type move, or to have some entry hazards and some reason to expect the target to switch out and back in. It could potentially be bad, as being grounded allows the target to benefit from terrains.
OTOH there's such a wide range of speeds in this format, and so much speed control (tailwind, electroweb, trick room, max airstream, etc) that it's not that unlikely that the opponent outspeeds either lopunny or one of your other pokemon. In the case of trick room, iron ball will even benefit the opponent.
Is there something else I'm missing? I don't think I've ever seen the grounding possibilities of Iron ball actually be useful to me, whereas the speed control from lagging tail would be one of the best in the meta. Idt there's any persistent effects that force the target to always go last, which is what switcheroo lagging tail does. Iron ball seems pretty mediocre, it only halves the speed of one opponent and grounds them.
I realise that iron ball grounds the target, but lopunny doesn't learn any ground type moves, so for this to be useful you either need to have a partner pokemon with a ground type move, or to have some entry hazards and some reason to expect the target to switch out and back in. It could potentially be bad, as being grounded allows the target to benefit from terrains.
OTOH there's such a wide range of speeds in this format, and so much speed control (tailwind, electroweb, trick room, max airstream, etc) that it's not that unlikely that the opponent outspeeds either lopunny or one of your other pokemon. In the case of trick room, iron ball will even benefit the opponent.
Is there something else I'm missing? I don't think I've ever seen the grounding possibilities of Iron ball actually be useful to me, whereas the speed control from lagging tail would be one of the best in the meta. Idt there's any persistent effects that force the target to always go last, which is what switcheroo lagging tail does. Iron ball seems pretty mediocre, it only halves the speed of one opponent and grounds them.
The reason Lopunny has Iron Ball is because, unlike Lagging Tail, the Iron Ball's speed reduction takes effect on the turn it uses Switcheroo. This immediate assistance can help immensely in the neutralization of threats.
Ahh, thank you. Yes, I can see why that's better now. I didn't realise how lagging tail works.
Also another cool idea for a couple of sets would be Meteor Beam + Power Herb. Although it can only be used once, the SpA boost + Max coverage opportunities are really cool and something potentially worth trying. The Pokemon that made me think of this idea was Lunala, as in VGC Lunala runs Power Herb + Meteor Beam to quickly be a strong threat(and Incineroar counter but that doesn't apply here). Some Pokemon it could also apply to are: Nihilego, Celesteela, Starmie, Eternatus?, Coalossal, Aurorus, Cradily.
