Coalossal should get steam engine as an ability imo.
Being the fastest mon in the game after a switch in to a fire move is really useful
Being the fastest mon in the game after a switch in to a fire move is really useful
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Format Discussion Pokemon Sword & Shield Random Battle Sets
- Thread starter Annika
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In a BSS Factory game I got a Choice Scarf Cinderace set that had Bounce. I'd assume Bounce is there mostly for Max Airsteam, which would make Scarf be pretty redundant. Should sets with Bounce be locked to roll Band whenever it would normally be Scarf, especially on something with already good speed, or is it just that this kind of set is perfectly appropriate for the BSS meta, which I admittedly don't have a great grasp of?
Gen 8 BSS Factory wasn't developed by the Randbats team, so you'll probably be able to get more accurate answers on the BSS subforum thread about it.
If you ask me, it's probably because you still may prefer a fast Cinderace while saving Dynamax for later/other Pokemon. For example, you may have needed to use Dynamax to counter a Dynamaxed wallbreaker/sweeper, and Cinderace now is a great late-game sweeper option, or you may need to stall a turn against a Dyna'd rival at +1 Speed, so Scarf + Bounce can help you there. I don't think Cinder needs that much the extra power, since it's already quite strong on its own thanks to 252 Atk EVs and Libero.
It's good in double combined with weakness policy. In singles, with no reliable way of boosting its offense - which is very lackluster - steam engine has very little value compared to the utility that flame body provides, imo
Would a Palkia set with Lustrous Orb be possible? I was thinking about Spacial Rand + Hydro Pump + Fire Blast + Thunder Wave.
The combination of hitting hard (with boosted water and dragon type moves) and still being able to T-Wave looks appealing to me. The current lefties or choiced items sets aren't bad per se, but I think a Lustrous Orb set provides more versatility for the mon. Therefore I don't think it should replace any of the current sets, but it would be a nice addition. You also don't lose the value of your choiced items when dynamaxing, which is a nice bonus.
The extra Lustrous Orb power would guarantee oneshots with Spacial on Noivern, Vish, Zygarde, Flygon and potentially OHKO Drampa, Latios, Kommo-O, Exeggutor-Alola, Kingdra, Hydreigon, Eternatus and Druddigon where the lefties/scarf set doesn't. This to illustrate that the extra power matters, without necessarily having to go to specs levels and locking yourself in.
The combination of hitting hard (with boosted water and dragon type moves) and still being able to T-Wave looks appealing to me. The current lefties or choiced items sets aren't bad per se, but I think a Lustrous Orb set provides more versatility for the mon. Therefore I don't think it should replace any of the current sets, but it would be a nice addition. You also don't lose the value of your choiced items when dynamaxing, which is a nice bonus.
The extra Lustrous Orb power would guarantee oneshots with Spacial on Noivern, Vish, Zygarde, Flygon and potentially OHKO Drampa, Latios, Kommo-O, Exeggutor-Alola, Kingdra, Hydreigon, Eternatus and Druddigon where the lefties/scarf set doesn't. This to illustrate that the extra power matters, without necessarily having to go to specs levels and locking yourself in.
Sorry if this has been suggested before, but could Reuniclus have the option of rolling Regenerator in rands? Magic Guard is amazing, but Regenerator is amazing too, and it has the bulk to pull it off. Plus it would create mind games with people who aren't sure if they should click an immediate status move like Toxic when it first comes in
Also, could Silvally Ice get Iron Head instead of Psychic Fangs? Psychic fangs is useful for fighting/poison, and can set terrain when dmaxed. Iron head is useful for rock/fairy, and can create defense boosts when maxed. Overall, I think the potential for flinches is slightly more useful than the potential to destroy screens, and the potential for defense boosts is slightly more useful than the potential to invalidate priority moves.
Also, could Silvally Ice get Iron Head instead of Psychic Fangs? Psychic fangs is useful for fighting/poison, and can set terrain when dmaxed. Iron head is useful for rock/fairy, and can create defense boosts when maxed. Overall, I think the potential for flinches is slightly more useful than the potential to destroy screens, and the potential for defense boosts is slightly more useful than the potential to invalidate priority moves.
Three issues with this suggestion:
1) You would absolutely need to sub then belly drum after taking SR damage to get the salac and then you're at 1HP because of it. Raw belly drumming wont work
2) Switching in darm twice to stealth rock for whatever reason means you won't be able to turn into darm zen which for rare cases wont be good if you somehow wanted to max guard to get to darm zen.
3) The biggest issue is if there are no hazards, subbing + using belly drum does not give salac berry, which is an obvious problem.
I was playing random battle and my opponent had a Shedinja:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8randombattle-1632879995-piagp9yvxle39j3zi5rfytkjoffzj5ipw
All my pokemon didn't have super effective moves against it, they didn't have toxic or any other way to kill it. this was pretty unfair and I'd like the folks who modify Random battle's settings to take a look. I know it's not liberally "random battle" because we didn't find in our team 6 fire type pokemon, so I would like you to modify this "random" for when a Shedinja appears, at least have 1 or 2 pokemon with super effective move or At least something to kill him. note: my basculin didn't have crunch.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8randombattle-1632879995-piagp9yvxle39j3zi5rfytkjoffzj5ipw
All my pokemon didn't have super effective moves against it, they didn't have toxic or any other way to kill it. this was pretty unfair and I'd like the folks who modify Random battle's settings to take a look. I know it's not liberally "random battle" because we didn't find in our team 6 fire type pokemon, so I would like you to modify this "random" for when a Shedinja appears, at least have 1 or 2 pokemon with super effective move or At least something to kill him. note: my basculin didn't have crunch.
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It's not possible to adjust your team for your opponent's team code-wise.
sounds fishy your point, because 80% of the time when I started with a focus sash pokemon, its almost garantee that the first pokemon of your opponent is focus sash too..
But in this case, we need to look at all movesets of our 6 pokemon and they need to have at least a super effective attack against shedinja or a Non-Damaging move that can kill it.
look my battle, I already start the game losing, really unfair.
This is not a thing. Pokemon generate focus sash in slot 1 if they are below a certain level of bulk (in terms of base stats), if they do not have a higher priority item they'd like instead (such as a Choice item), AND if they do not have moves that would interfere with focus sash (like recovery or recoil). Aside from generating Focus Sash on Shedinja when your own team has removal, this is the only line about Focus Sash in the code at all whatsoever. It does not check the opposing team, nor does it check anything I have not stated here.
Your team and your opponent's team are generated completely independently. Without a complete restructuring of the program that generates random teams, it is not possible to use the opponent's team to generate your own or vice versa, and such a restructuring is not going to happen.
It's random, and we'd like it to stay as random as is reasonable. Luck happens. Sometimes you will lose to matchup. We cannot eliminate that chance.
Dragon Dance Salamence should always have Dual Wingbeat
DD Outrage EQ Roost is not a bad set and doesn't warrant special code removing it.
This is why I said our team.
just like every 2~3 months they change the moveset of practically every pokémon, they could invest the time to program something like that, there are several people who would love to help.
About comparing with the opposing team, it doesn't have to be the whole team either, just checking with shedinja would prevent that.
There is a similar case, but not as problematic as this one, in which you start with a pokemon with weakness 2x or 4x against ground, and your opponent starts with a dugtrio with choice band and arena trap. In other words, you start the game with 5 pokemons instead of 6.
It's happened about 3 times with me.
luck happens? this replay only shows that this scenario must be changed in the game code, a battle in which you already start with no way to win, it is not a battle, and must be fixed.
Changing the way team generation works this thoroughly would amount to an absurd amount of development effort for a very rare edge case, and it's not good manners to volunteer someone else's time to do it.
I personally also don't like it philosophically, as no format allows you to adapt your team to your opponent's, and I don't see it as all that different from other practically (although not mathematically) unwinnable matchups.
This certainly falls within the normal bad-matchup-spectrum.
I think what lucas tesch is trying to say is that any team that has zero ways to deal with Shedinja should be rejected, regardless of whether the opponent has one or not. Or maybe he isn't, but at least it would be a not unreasonable solution to his problem.
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It would be unreasonable. As Cake has already said, above, team generation happens in a vacuum, without consideration for the opponent's team. A team of 6 Pokemon being generated that cannot hit Shedinja is extremely unlikely, yes--but the rules, structure, and ethos of Random Battles allows for unlikely scenarios.
We've all had those games. I still shudder/laugh at the memory of a Gen 7 match where my opponent sent out their last mon, a lowly Parasect, and I realized in horror/amusement that it was about to dunk on my 5 remaining mon and win the match. That "shouldn't" happen anymore than an untouchable Shedinja, but it can happen, and so--by the law of probabilities--it eventually will.
Some matchups are unwinnable. A team without a way to touch Shedinja is simply an extremely "visible" version of one of these matchups. Let me be abundantly clear: we will not be changing things to adjust for this outcome.
Just to clarify, I mentioned the option that teams without means to touch Shedinja should always be rejected, independently of the opponent's team. The quotes you referred to mention rejecting teams based on the opponent's team. Yes, it is totally unreasonable to reject these teams only if the opponent has one, but it is at least less unreasonable to always reject them. That being said, I do not really have an opinion on this, I just wanted to point out the possibility.
Ngl I would be for this. Changing a team based on the enemy's is a giant no but making it so that your team has at least one thing to deal with Shedinja would just get rid of or at least a completely dumb scenario where the game is actually completely unwinnable.
If this was ladder then I wouldn't actually mind this occurring as it is but because we hold a lot of tournaments then it would help to get rid of this extremely rare situation from happening and not ruin the integrity of the tournaments. If someone was to lose finals with this, they would be rightfully angry at it.
In the end though, this is just one set of unwinnable MUs that occur (although to the extreme). The situation could be rare enough that we would just ignore it and do nothing about it.
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Agree, any generated team must have at last one way to kill a shedinja, regardless of whether the opponent has one or not. this is simple and not problematic way to deal with this problem.
It's actually not that simple from a coding standpoint
Reroll team if there is not any of:
- Snow Warning/Sand Stream
- Fire/Dark/Ghost/Flying/Rock attacks
- Photon Geyser/Sunsteel Strike/Moongeist Beam
- Neutralizing Gas
- Mold Breaker/Teravolt/Turboblaze
- Status moves that directly induce Burn, Poison
- Synchronize
- Magic Bounce
- Iron Barbs/Rocky Helmet/Aftermath
- etc
not a comprehensive list but what came off the top of my head. Won't pretend to understand the code but as far as I'm aware, the code can check a team itself, if not the opposing; otherwise I don't know how the recent Type Chart changes work.
Not all of these are equal (Magic Bounce/Synchronize on Will-o-Wisp, for example might be too niche to be relevant...or it might not be, considering how rare this issue is in the first place) and I'm certainly missing some, but this illustrates the difference between "mathematically unwinnable" and "practically unwinnable" matchups referenced here:
Practically unwinnable: you can outplay, bank on hax, hope your opponent chokes, leverage the fact that your opponent doesn't know your team, etc. Infeasible to regulate because there are too many factors - though the Type Chart is a big one - and probably philosophically undesirable to regulate.
Mathematically unwinnable: you can't do any of that. Comparatively very constrained set of factors. So you can probably do something about it.
Fundamentally this isn't a discussion for philosophy or whatever the fuck. Removal of mathematically unwinnable matchups is unambiguously desirable (unless you want 100-0 matchups....LOL); the question is feasibility. Specifically, 3 questions:
1) Can you reject a team based on factors intrinsic to itself? (demonstrably...yes?)
2) Is the Randbats Council willing to take the max 1 hour to hunt out all possible ways to k*ll Shedinja?
3) Is the Developer Council willing to implement 1) and 2) into Pokemon Showdown dot com?
No point in spilling more words. The Type Chart Expert has solved the issue.
(don't care about shedinja one way or the other)
- Wigglytuff
Lucas teschm this isn't a bad idea theoretically but it can't be done.
To make it clear: it's not feasible.
The Shedinja team check isn't feasible because new team-wide measures involve the introduction and implementation of "counters", which clutters the code around 5-10x more than other hardcodes, solely for a situation that realistically happens at most in 1/300000 battles and more realistically at 1/1000000.
Another reason why this isn't feasible is that there is not currently anything in place that can delete a pokemon from a team after it's been generated. All pokemon filtering occurs during the team generation process, as the pokemon are being generated one by one. Adding such a feature would not only be messy and require a complete restructuring of how and when pokemon get generated, but it also could result in site crashes and other severe bugs. Ones which aren't fixable without reverting it. As we've seen with the weaknesses change, even small changes to the generator result in crashes on a large scale too much for us to keep them at 100% rigidity. That's why every limit is soft.
This is the conclusion coders reached.
To make it clear: it's not feasible.
The Shedinja team check isn't feasible because new team-wide measures involve the introduction and implementation of "counters", which clutters the code around 5-10x more than other hardcodes, solely for a situation that realistically happens at most in 1/300000 battles and more realistically at 1/1000000.
Another reason why this isn't feasible is that there is not currently anything in place that can delete a pokemon from a team after it's been generated. All pokemon filtering occurs during the team generation process, as the pokemon are being generated one by one. Adding such a feature would not only be messy and require a complete restructuring of how and when pokemon get generated, but it also could result in site crashes and other severe bugs. Ones which aren't fixable without reverting it. As we've seen with the weaknesses change, even small changes to the generator result in crashes on a large scale too much for us to keep them at 100% rigidity. That's why every limit is soft.
This is the conclusion coders reached.
What about just throwing Toxic on the last mon if nothing else can hit Shedinja?
Still the possibility to get screwed over if you roll a Gen 8 mon last but at that point the universe is out to make sure you lose this round.
Still the possibility to get screwed over if you roll a Gen 8 mon last but at that point the universe is out to make sure you lose this round.
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