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Uh I haven’t really tested the mon in HGSS but I don’t ever see Gengar in S.
Yes, you can Curse on bosses early, and yes, Specs Gengar is really good. But waiting until post-Morty for Shadow Ball, while effective, never really screams S to me. Pidgeotto still has Roost to negate Curse. Scyther can just U-Turn out as you are immune to Quick Attack. Miltank has Scrappy and might even outspeed you, leaving Gastly one flinch away from just…dying. You also likely lose to Morty since you don’t have Shadow Ball yet.
I’m not saying Gengar isn’t good because it totally is, but waiting half the game to be that good doesn’t scream S to me. I see Geodude as way more of an S because it also exists at the start and can actually DAMAGE things outside of Curse. Yes, Geodude does have consistency issues with Rock STAB and worse speed, but that isn’t really a problem with A) Rock Polish and B) most field fights being a joke in this game. Also, Geodude’s first half of the game is roughly equal to Gengar being good in the back half of Gyms. I think they should both be A, despite saying myself I think Geodude is S.
After Goldenrod it means that it is super effective against half of the rest of the Johto. Ok, does not fare well against Pryce, Jasmine and Clair, but has a lot of Team Rocket members, Morty and Chuck to receive tons of exp. Psybeam at 19, Psychic at 37. Strength and Return by STAB in the rare cases you need them. Fast enough. Wins against Will (Shadow Ball), Koga, Bruno and 2 mons of Karen.
Also Girafarig needs zero babying to be ready to use and has a great encounter rate.
I ran Girafarig on a run two years ago and amazed me its performance during Johto (I stopped playing after winning the E4)
Even I doubt Technician Scyther and Steelix should be A instead of Girafarig. Technician Scyther is not easy to encounter it and Steelix due to the need of farming the evolutionary item at Pokeathlon.
Steelix was discussed throughly in terms of it’s A potential and it is deserving. Scyther is planned to move down unless some people start advocating for A. Gastly (Trade) has shown power suited to an A, not S. The Gastly period also holds it back quite a fair bit, thus it remains in A unless logs are provided to should move to S.
I am pretty sure that a consensus on Scyther was never reached. Someone was testing it and has yet to complete their run. For what is worth, someone used Scizor and said C on it, so if you want to put it that way, Scyther would theoritically be better off in B than in A.
Girafarig, I remember that its E4 performance, while not bad, wasn't without its issues. Will's Xatu are not OHKOed by Specs Shadow Ball and can make its life miserable with confusion. Likewise, against Koga, Muk and Crobat didn't die to Specs Psychic and could proceed to increase their evasion and also make Girafarig's life miserable. And I am pretty sure that Bruno required that Hitmonlee used Focus Energy for a full sweep, since Machamp could finish it off while living one Specs Psychic. Girafarig's E4 performance is better than most things, but let's not act as if it outright destroys it, because that wasn't the case in my experience. Also, as it has been mentioned, Girafarig tends to be ehhh when not hitting super effectively, notably against Pryce and Jasmine (and technically Archer, but you do hit a majority of the other Executives, at least).
I also feel it's wrong to compare Girafarig to what is in A-tier. Most of the Pokemon there *generally* have those two traits:
1) they come early enough to cover important bosses that most Pokemon at that time cannot cover (read Falkner/Bugsy/Whitney)
2) they remain very good even after the early-game.
The exceptions to the above are Lugia and Ho-Oh. Lugia, in its case, is good for most of the Elite Four and can singlehandedly beat all of Lance's Dragonite (simply set up Hail and spam Blizzard, you outspeed and generally OHKO all of them), which is why it was put in A. I personally think Ho-Oh should be B and not A, so I am not gonna cover it.
Anyways, the Pokemon that are currently in A-tier (excluding Scyther) are Gengar, Steelix, Cyndaquil, Totodile, Heracross, and Geodude All bar Heracross come before Gym #1 and can cover important boss fights that most of the other Pokemon at these times will struggle with. Gastly can Curse their difficult aces (and even put them to sleep, which is necessary for Scyther to prevent it from U-turning out of the fight) and the rest are simply good for all three Gyms (Croconaw can beat Scyther with the Rock Tomb TM, which is only contested by Sandshrew) and they all continue to be good for most of the game (Steelix requires Pokeathlon, but it can sweep some E4 members easily with Curse and traded experience makes it easy to train and lets you give more experience to your teammates). Heracross is by far the best option you have for Whitney and it tends to be powerful elsewhere. Steelix was also debated to hell a while ago and the consensus was that it's A-tier.
Girafarig doesn't really fit any of those traits. It neither covers opponents that are critically important (I mean, Chuck is just RNG fest and Morty is also RNG fest, they don't hold the same difficulty value as the first three Gym Leaders) and it does have some obstacles in its performance that it should not have. I believe that Girafarig should remain in B-tier. B-tier still indicates that a Pokemon is good, but A and S-tier are a power level different to what Girafarig can pull off, from experience. Retesting may be beneficial, if someone really believes in A-tier, but my experience leans more towards B than A.
I want to note that I am not aiming to tier something strictly on some arbitrarily decided "traits", but my idea with those was to illustrate that Girafarig isn't on the same level as what is in A-tier.
===
As for Gengar to S, I can see where it's coming from and I even implied that it was close to S, but I think it's better off in A. The Gastly period, I agree it's not *so bad*, but that's still not ideal for an S-tier, given that your only attacking move for a while is Lick and thus you will be taking some time route cleaning till you get Night Shade. I also recall Gengar being reliant on inaccurate TMs to win some fights, most notably Jasmine, so that isn't in its favor either. Either way, it's a great Pokemon, but I wouldn't say it's S-tier, since you have some issues to work around to reach that potential.
Also, Gengar doesn't lose to Morty, it just loses to his Gengar. Shadow Claw is good enough for the rest of his team.
Girafarig doesn't really fit any of those traits. It neither covers opponents that are critically important (I mean, Chuck is just RNG fest and Morty is also RNG fest, they don't hold the same difficulty value as the first three Gym Leaders)
Neither of them are RNG fest with Girafarig, first one Girafarig has Odor Sleuth which never misses and becomes their evasion a +0 permanent and Morty, Girafarig can have Early Bird and it is not difficult to get one with it.
Neither of them are RNG fest with Girafarig, first one Girafarig has Odor Sleuth which never misses and becomes their evasion a +0 permanent and Morty, Girafarig can have Early Bird and it is not difficult to get one with it.
F Tier is for gimmicks, meaning fairly unusable if not at all. Wobbs is at Clair too at 20+. Shuckle at least can be used so it got E.
I’ll explain it a bit better here as a few people have stated that Shuckle is an F Mon. The term “gimmick” that I am using here is more tuned to the Pokémon’s playstyle.
Unown gets nothing but Hidden Power, is at level 5, and its stat are pitiful. But forgoing the other latter two here, only having Hidden Power is terrible. No one is going to try to get a good Unown because even the best Unown is held back by its pitiful stats and inability to learn anything else.
Smeargle is actually even worse than Unown in the confines of a testing run. You have to beat Morty for Surf and backtrack in Union Cave or Ruins of Alph iirc. (It’s been a while since I’ve even tried to get one). Your reward is a mon who can only use Sketch. A move with 1 PP but will forever remember the move last used against it. Therein lies the issue. If you wanted this, you would either: A. Have to use a move you wanted it to know and not kill it (it’s stats are mediocre) or B. Catch it before it uses Sketch. (You could have it struggle too but the point still stands). Basically you are working twice as hard to get a mon who isn’t even great off its feet. You’ll have to avoid certain Trainer if there’s a move you want off of them or try to find a Pokémon with the move, hope it uses it on you, and then repeat 11 levels later.
Wobbs probably has the most potential to get into E but unfortunately it’s got a Gimmick attached to it and it’s super late. Wobbs is a guessing game (though knowledge of movesets help predict). Tack on the healing items required to even do a “sweep” and you’ve got one of the most inefficient mons there is in HGSS. Also like the other two above it, it can’t learn anything else via TM/HM.
Shuckle doesn’t have these issues. It can attack out the gates (laughably though) and has access to TMs. Is it great by any means. God no, but it’s better than the things in F tier.
This is not going to change anybody's tiers, but I just wanted to point out that you access a small part of Wobbuffet's room and catch Wobbuffet when you defeat Morty and become able to use surf. This means Wobbuffet is not underleveled when you catch it, and you can use it for about half of the game.
This is not going to change anybody's tiers, but I just wanted to point out that you access a small part of Wobbuffet's room and catch Wobbuffet when you defeat Morty and become able to use surf. This means Wobbuffet is not underleveled when you catch it, and you can use it for about half of the game.
I know you said it’s not gonna change tiers but even if you can get Wobbuffet earlier it’s still gonna suck because of how terrible it is to clear mooks with it.
I will give Wobbuffet this though. Apparently from a video I saw it can at least serve as an emergency counter to Clair’s Kingdra if you live a hit (I saw it do so in a 0 EXP run which I know we don’t really do here, but still). Even that’s unlikely to change anything but it is worth noting.
Apologies for the delay. Here are the final placements for HGSS. After this post is up, I will officially close this on Sunday, June 11th. We will then be onto write-ups. I appreciate everyone who tested, offered their insights, and brought up good arguments for some of the Pokemon here.
Scyther: A -> B
Scizor: C
Dunsparce: C
Paras: D
Psyduck: C
Snubbull: D
Slowpoke: C
Slowpoke (Trade): C
Farfetch'd: D
Corsola: E
Remoraid: E
LIckitung: D
Jolteon: C
Gligar: E
Mantine: C
Swinub: D
Teddiursa: D
Phanpy: D
Ponyta: E
Zubat: C
Venonat: D
After comparing this list to Bulbapedia's list of Johto Pokemon, I think we're still missing a few.
Never tested
Weedle
Steelix (no I don't mean the Steelix that's in A tier right now, because that is Onix (trade) and should be called "Onix (trade)" for consistency. I think we should tier the Steelix in Cliff Cave that can be caught without trading)
Apologies for the delay. Here are the final placements for HGSS. After this post is up, I will officially close this on Sunday, June 11th. We will then be onto write-ups. I appreciate everyone who tested, offered their insights, and brought up good arguments for some of the Pokemon here.
Do other people really want to start writeups sooner and not later? If not, I think it's better to leave this thread open for at least one more month (until August 5). Some of the Pokemon that you just placed were never tested, and 6 days is not exactly enough to do last-minute tests to verify the tiers for the never-tested things.
Additionally, I want to say that I know I have been bad contributor. About 2 months ago, I tested a bunch of things in Platinum, played some other video games, and sort of forgot this thread existed. I really would appreciate the opportunity to do at least one more run of HGSS (specifically with Feraligatr, Ampharos, Nidoqueen, Pinsir, and Tauros, and possibly another run with lower tier things). If I get a month to do this run, I promise to finish it within that month.
Never tested
Weedle
Steelix (no I don't mean the Steelix that's in A tier right now, because that is Onix (trade) and should be called "Onix (trade)" for consistency. I think we should tier the Steelix in Cliff Cave that can be caught without trading)
No one's tested Weedle because everyone knows it sucks. In fact, Spinarak, a Pokemon that is, for most parts, similar and has been tested, is still E-tier, there's no way Weedle is higher than it.
Steelix is a bit trickier, cause, yeah, it's your only way to use it if you cannot trade, but, on the other hand, it's a 2% encounter rate and it comes at a point where it has skipped many of its good matchups. In fact, I am wondering if using an unevolved Onix is better, cause at least it covers the first three matchups. I cannot see this being higher than D, if it would even rank that high on first place. I think the best way to handle this Steelix is just to give it a quick mention in the current Steelix's write-up, but I see little value in writing it up separately, since it's got so many issues that you might as well not use it if you cannot trade (and to explain why I see little value, I think it's best we keep the amount of write-ups to a minimum to make it as easy to GP as possible. Drums and I have taken months to get both BW1 and RBY articles GPed simply due to how long lists tend to be).
Snubbull and Scizor are actually in the OP. They weren't initially, but I notified him of that and he fixed them. You are right for the rest, I was planning on going over the list around the time the it closes to make sure everything's been placed, good catch on those.
After comparing this list to Bulbapedia's list of Johto Pokemon, I think we're still missing a few.
Never tested
Weedle
Steelix (no I don't mean the Steelix that's in A tier right now, because that is Onix (trade) and should be called "Onix (trade)" for consistency. I think we should tier the Steelix in Cliff Cave that can be caught without trading)
Also Scyther (trade) and Snubbull are missing in the OP even though you said you just placed them.
Do other people really want to start writeups sooner and not later? If not, I think it's better to leave this thread open for at least one more month (until August 5). Some of the Pokemon that you just placed were never tested, and 6 days is not exactly enough to do last-minute tests to verify the tiers for the never-tested things.
Additionally, I want to say that I know I have been bad contributor. About 2 months ago, I tested a bunch of things in Platinum, played some other video games, and sort of forgot this thread existed. I really would appreciate the opportunity to do at least one more run of HGSS (specifically with Feraligatr, Ampharos, Nidoqueen, Pinsir, and Tauros, and possibly another run with lower tier things). If I get a month to do this run, I promise to finish it within that month.
The Pokémon that got placed without tests are easy enough to place with enough common sense. They either arrive too late, are incredibly weak, shafted by MUs, etc etc. One of these as pointed was Weedle. It’s not good. Same with the likes of Delibird and a few others.
This thread has been up for a year. People stopped really testing after the initial rush so it’s been in a dry spell. I doubt anyone is really caring if we move to write-ups in a week. If they do, they are free to post here.
Sorry, but no. I’m not going to extend this thread’s life for a month because a person wants me to. I’ll only do this if I get a surge of testers. A few users in this post have asked about write ups already and I for one wish to move on as well with them.
Edit: Thank you for catching some Pokémon I had missed. I thought I had them placed in but upon review myself, I did not. Good eye!
I can easily see that Delibird has worse issues than over 90% of the things in this game, but it is undeniably better than stuff like Ditto and Smeargle. If we're still saying "F tier is for gimmicks," Delibird belongs in E, not F.
Delibird's availability is not good, but it's not bad enough to hurt very much. Delibird is easier to find than Yanma and Remoraid and comes at a much higher level than Slugma, Eevee, and Tyrogue.
Delibird's stats pretty close to the worst when compared to other fully evolved Pokemon, but it is still stronger than some of their pre-evolutions. Carrying and using a Delibird is less painful compared to some pre-evolution Pokemon, like Slugma, Grimer, and Rhyhorn, until they evolve very late in the game.
Unlike everything else in F, Delibird can learn TMs and HMs. Unlike quite a few things in E, some of those TMs and HMs are STAB moves. Hustle is also one of the better abilities in this game. Even if you consider hustle's accuracy decrease, Delibird's average damage output is still greater than Ariados's and Umbreon's and significantly greater than Ledian's. There is no way Delibird is worse than something that never learns a move stronger than silver wind.
Delibird also has fast leveling rate. Fast leveling rate never hurts anyone.
Are we seriously arguing the viability of Delibrid right now? Delibird. A joke pokemon. Regardless, F is described as the inability to surmount much either by late availability or a gimmick. This isn’t the only time F tier issues have been brought up and why I wanted to get rid of it before this happened again, but I was told to keep it. And yes, while Tyrouge is stupid late and comes underleveled, still does more evolved at 20 than a Delibird ever will.
I can easily see that Delibird has worse issues than over 90% of the things in this game, but it is undeniably better than stuff like Ditto and Smeargle. If we're still saying "F tier is for gimmicks," Delibird belongs in E, not F.
Delibird's availability is not good, but it's not bad enough to hurt very much. Delibird is easier to find than Yanma and Remoraid and comes at a much higher level than Slugma, Eevee, and Tyrogue.
Delibird's stats pretty close to the worst when compared to other fully evolved Pokemon, but it is still stronger than some of their pre-evolutions. Carrying and using a Delibird is less painful compared to some pre-evolution Pokemon, like Slugma, Grimer, and Rhyhorn, until they evolve very late in the game.
Unlike everything else in F, Delibird can learn TMs and HMs. Unlike quite a few things in E, some of those TMs and HMs are STAB moves. Hustle is also one of the better abilities in this game. Even if you consider hustle's accuracy decrease, Delibird's average damage output is still greater than Ariados's and Umbreon's and significantly greater than Ledian's. There is no way Delibird is worse than something that never learns a move stronger than silver wind.
Delibird also has fast leveling rate. Fast leveling rate never hurts anyone.
I'm sorry but I don't understand this rationale. Just because a mon has better stats compared to other things doesn't mean it shouldn't be F.
Shuckle has 5 points in BST higher than Alakazam. By this rationale Shuckle should also be S if we are judging by raw stats, which is almost never a good factor in deciding if something is viable. In Sinnoh Bastiodon has 495 BST, but is absolute garbage because it has no offenses to speak of. Early on in this list I said Skarmory is awful despite having a good BST too.
In addition, these lists generally judge mons on their own merits. Saying Delibird isn't as bad as Slugma means nothing to me. I should use Delibird because it's slightly better than X, Y, and Z, then, even though it still comes exceptionally late? The mons you listed weren't even the same types as Delibird, like, c'mon. It's not even a remotely relevant comparison. Even if we did compare Ice types (most of which suck) that doesn't mean Delibird is worth using in comparison.
Like, I'm all for saying mons can have missed potential. I was a fan of Audino in the BW1 list, a mon most people wouldn't look twice at. Even being fair to Delibird, what exactly are you supposed to do with it? TM it the Hail / Blizzard combo that it will die before it uses? Maybe Avalanche is good with negative priority that will help you die faster? Even Delibird's closest thing to a niche, Hustle-boosted Aerial Ace, will KO nothing because of base 55 Attack.
Other options include Focus Punch...Fly...Thief...uh.
Let's also not forget Delibird comes at Level 22 (lower than Morty after SEVEN BADGES), is fairly rare, and has a catch rate of 45. Why should I use this again?
I hate being blunt like this, but if you are going to suggest in a non-joking manner we should give Delibird credit, well, at least some logs to back it up would be nice.
Apologies for the delay. Here are the final placements for HGSS. After this post is up, I will officially close this on Sunday, June 11th. We will then be onto write-ups. I appreciate everyone who tested, offered their insights, and brought up good arguments for some of the Pokemon here.
Scyther: A -> B
Scizor: C
Dunsparce: C
Paras: D
Psyduck: C
Snubbull: D
Slowpoke: C
Slowpoke (Trade): C
Farfetch'd: D
Corsola: E
Remoraid: E
LIckitung: D
Jolteon: C
Gligar: E
Mantine: C
Swinub: D
Teddiursa: D
Phanpy: D
Ponyta: E
Zubat: C
Venonat: D
The one placement here that I heavily disagree with is Scizor. The only flaw that Scizor has is that it's hard to obtain, but once you have it, it's a monster. 130 base attack together with technician metal claw can't be understated. Scizor is also pretty bulky and it has a phenomenal typing, which allows it to wall out a lot of trainers, like almost all of Team Rocket. This gives it an amazing matchup spread, with only two mediocre matchups against Clair and Lance. I honestly think it's borderline S tier in terms of its actual performance, kind of like Heracross. If Scyther is in B tier, than Scizor should be B as well, at least. You might have to spend time on getting a metal coat when using Scizor instead of Scyther, but you'll get a better performance in return.
I also noticed that Paras and Venonat are both in D tier, which doesn't seem fair to Venonat. Parasect is trash, while Venomoth is actually pretty good once it evolves. It seems to me that there should be at least a tier difference between these two.
I have used both Scyther and Scizor on the same team and while I lack the logs, I felt that Scizor was pretty much inferior to Scyther in most ways. Scyther's STAB on Wing Attack + type advantage on Chuck definitely made it feel more powerful to me and Scizor was, in most cases, similar to Scyther at best, if not inferior. I could maybe do a very quick run with both and see if the ranks are good for them.
I have used both Scyther and Scizor on the same team and while I lack the logs, I felt that Scizor was pretty much inferior to Scyther in most ways. Scyther's STAB on Wing Attack + type advantage on Chuck definitely made it feel more powerful to me and Scizor was, in most cases, similar to Scyther at best, if not inferior. I could maybe do a very quick run with both and see if the ranks are good for them.
Interesting. In my experience, Scizor was actually better. Scizor has noticably higher attack, a better typing, and much more impressive bulk. Scyther has STAB on wing attack and better speed, but I feel like Scizor's typing + bulk makes up for this. It's not like Scizor is all that slow anyway, and you can always use bullet punch or even agility to get around speed issues. I think bringing up Chuck is a moot point because Scizor still has technician wing attack. It might not get boosted by STAB, but it's enough to OHKO Primeape. Really, Scizor isn't much worse against Chuck, and Chuck isn't that difficult anyway.
Ultimately, the difference isn't that big I think. That's why I would personally put both of them in B tier.
It’s a few pages back. They wanted me to keep F to shove the like of Tyrogue and various others in there. This is back when I tried to merge the two together because I thought it’d be better to do so as E was already bottom of the barrel. I’m all for the merge honestly as it avoids any more headaches, it won’t drastically change the list either as it’s only 3 mons.
One thing I did catch that I do wish to bring up is that you made a post (seemed to have deleted it) about my placing of things in tiers that had not been tested. Most of these were Ds and Es. Things you can put in very easily due to various factors attributed to them. Most of the Ds has been tested to my knowledge as well. Es are mostly the Safari Mons. The others like Pidgey and Ledyba are easy to place. First, it’s a Ledyba. Not really doing much. Pidgey takes all the way to 36 to fully evolve. Basically Clair. That’s.....not good. Most of, if not all of its MUs are pretty bad too. The places Pidgey would be good in it’s either held back by its stats (or in this case, level for Bugsy) or the favorable MU has a move that just shuts it down. Another reason I kinda take a bit of an offense to this is that you think I put them in these tiers as if I had no knowledge on how they functioned in the game. If this wasn’t your intent, then I apologize but it’s how that post came off to me.
I think merging F and E would make sense. F-tier seems to be just a list of joke Pokemon (I suspect its purpose might be to comically highlight how bad they are?), but I doubt anyone would seriously object to removing a tier no one ever used anyways, not to mention you could argue that what constitutes a joke Pokemon is subjective anyways (I'd personally classify Shuckle as a joke Pokemon too, it's just discount Wobbuffet).
With that said, I think there are better things to discuss in the time left until the list concludes, like Scyther and Scizor, than debating whenever Delibird is complete garbage or just garbage.
(as a slight note, Pidgey WAS tested by me and I nominated it to E. It really does nothing, it's not even good for Scyther as a Pidgeotto and it evolves way too late, only for it not to do much again. Ledyba wasn't tested, but as Turdterra said, there really isn't a way to make Ledyba usable on first place, let alone good).
I will try to get the Scyther and Scizor run done by the 10th July. I am not planning on using anything else, as I want to get done with it very quickly, but I will try to maintain appropriate levels (mostly similar to what I have reached in past runs). I apologize if it's a problem for them being more-or-less last minute, but I have some stuff to deal with before I can tackle this.
Guys I think I tried using Ledyba earlygame in HGSS many moons ago and I can tell you firsthand it is awful.
How does Ledyba’s lower-than-Sunkern base 25 Attack with non-STAB Comet Punch / Tackle sound? Does that sound usable? How about Ledian’s base 35 Attack which is lower than Onix?
Here is Ledian’s HGSS movepool:
I don’t see how you’re supposed to use this, like at all. Silver Wind at level 29 or via Goldenrod Lottery is just bad, not to mention Silver Wind is A) 5 PP and B) running off 55 Special Attack, on par with Delibird offenses and C) Bug is a terrible offensive type anyway.
The kicker is that outside U-Turn via TM (which I don’t know why you’d put U-Turn on something with 35 Attack, sure it’s a screener but even a non-STAB user could get more mileage out of this) you are running Silver Wind the entire game.
I will admit the earlygame screen niche is pretty unique, but again it falls apart for a few reasons. Firstly, the main match you’d want to use them in is Bugsy before everyone else gets access to them in the Dept. Store. Problem is Scyther has U-Turn to waste your screen turns on cocoons (have fun with 35 Attack) and Scyther itself can simply crit past them with Focus Energy Quick Attack. And even without that…how do you kill Scyther as a Ledian when even SE hits don’t down it easily?
Secondly, even in Colosseum, Ledian is in the lowest tier despite having limited options in that game and screens being significantly more useful in Doubles. But when you have a starter that has access to both screens…
Thirdly, screens have never been the saving grace for a mon. Snivy was ranked low in BW1 despite screens access. Mons like Sigilyph and Cryogonal benefit from natural screens yes, but I was using both for their offensive attributes. And speaking of offensive attributes, Ledian ain’t it.
Bug / Flying type is terrible defensively and offensively. Ledian doesn’t even get Flying STAB until the Aerial Ace TM in Mt. Mortar after Waterfall, and I already explained how bad Silver Wind is. Even if you can use screens it means literally nothing in Ledian’s case. It will always struggle to kill.
Baton Passing is also never considered seriously in-game because it depends moreso on the viability of the recipient of the buffs. So that’s pretty much everything Ledian can do, and yet it still has no niche.
I’m all for raising mons, but if you’re going to more or less theorymon, please at least do a little research and foresight, or outright test with the mon.
Oh yeah that might have been me. Just to clarify now, this was what I wanted back then.
First preference: doing exactly what I suggested in this old post
Second preference: merging E and F
Third preference: leaving the F tier the way it is right now
You didn't take my old suggestion, and now it seems way to late to continue suggesting this. That's why I changed my mind and said I want you to merge E and F.
You need to drop this. It’s gone on long enough. I’m done with this point. If you have nothing to add on Pokemon that need to move out of a tier (which is what the week is for, not arguing about the merging of tiers at this point), then please refrain from bringing things up that add nothing of value at this current point in time. E and F are already merged as is.
Done with the run and will post my thoughts about it + logs.
For transparency purposes, I will reveal as much as I can about my testing + my Pokemon. Both Scyther and Scizor have 19 IVs in every stat + a neutral nature. EVs may vary, as I didn't try to keep them equal, but I doubt it would have changed much due to the fact that you are not reaching level 50 for them to distort stats to a huge degree. After every matchup, I will have a "conclusion" paragraph which will describe whenever one is better than the other. The point of that is to easier see whenever Scizor performs the same as Scyther or outperforms it. Both were the same level for each matchup and the levels are in line with what I've reached in past runs. No held items were used (in fact, this would've been more in favor of Scyther than Scizor, as Sharp Beak boosts an already powerful STAB move, while Scizor needs to grind a Metal Coat again to get the same).
With that said, here are the logs:
Scyther(21): Wing Attack OHKOs Clefairy and 3HKOs Miltank, outspeeding both. Miltank goes for Rollout instantly, which 3HKOs as well (my Scyther was also male). Rock Smash defense drop could be useful here, but unless you get Attracted or a crit, you win easily.
conclusion: since this is the point where you don't have Metal Coat, you have to use Scyther, like it or not. Scyther is good here, so "both" of them perform equally here and this will be in favor of both's rankings.
level: 22
Scyther: outspeeds and OHKOs everything with Wing Attack and Rock Smash.
Scizor: Wing Attack deals with Gastly, Bayleef (OHKO on rolls), and Zubat, while Rock Smash OHKOs Magnemite. Gastly outspeeds, though.
conclusion: both are good for this fight and can easily sweep him. Scyther is slightly better due to outspeeding Gastly, but this difference is negligible. None of them is particularly better.
level: 25
Scyther: outspeeds everything. Wing Attack 2HKOs Gengar even through berry and OHKOs the rest. As long as it doesn't land a Hypnosis, you have an easy sweep.
Scizor: Metal Claw 2HKOs Gengar and OHKOs the rest. However, all but Gastly outspeed it, so it's prone to more hax, though Shadow Ball won't deal much damage (but Curse might)
conclusion: Scyther is better here by a good percentage because it can outspeed everything, meaning it has less hax to deal with it. While it can theoritically lose to Gengar, the chances of that are very low. Scizor is more luck-dependent, even though it resists Shadow Ball, simply because it depends on waking up early if it's put to sleep.
level: 27
Scyther: Wing Attack OHKOs Raticate and Zubat and 2HKOs Koffing. Outspeeds all.
Scizor: Metal Claw OHKOs Zubat and 2HKOs the rest.
conclusion: both are good for this lame fight. Scyther is technically better here due to OHKOing Raticate, but this is not an important advantage
level: 30
Scyther: outspeeds both. Wing Attack OHKOs Primeape and 2HKOs Poliwrath. Its Surf is a 3HKO.
Scizor: outsped by both. Wing Attack OHKOs Primeape and 3HKOs Poliwrath. Primeape goes for Double Team turn one. Poliwrath 3HKOs with Surf and 2HKOs with Focus Punch. You need to hope for Hypnosis and it missing or you waking up instantly while it Focuse Punches OR it derping and spamming that anyways.
conclusion: Scyther is better here. It outspeeds Primeape, so it has less hax to deal with. Furthermore, it takes Poliwrath out faster and resists Focus Punch, meaning Hypnosis affects its performance significantly less (since Surf is a 3HKO and you will likely have woken up by the time Surf would KO).
level: 31
Scyther: Rock Smash 2HKOs Magnemite but Scyther is OHKOed by Thunderbolt. Steelix is bad too
Scizor: Rock Smash OHKOs Magnemite on rolls, while TBolt is a 3HKO (though you will get paralyzed). Iron Tail after Screech 2HKOs Scizor, while Rock Smash will take a few hits to KO.
conclusion: Scizor is better here, but neither is really good for the matchup as a whole. Scizor is only better because it doesn't die instantly, but I'd rather use something else here, given that beating Magnemite isn't exactly a hard thing
level: 31
Scyther: beats Seel, but struggles with the rest
Scizor: Wing Attack 2HKOs Seel. Rock Smash into Metal Claw KO Piloswine. Dewgong is KOed by Rock Smash spam.
conclusion: win goes to Scizor here, this is the first time in which it is significantly better than Scyther. Furthermore, a Pryce sweep is rare to come by.
level: 33
both: STAB move 2HKOs Koffing and 3HKOs Weezing. Smokescreen is problematic. Scizor is immune to Poison, though
conclusion: Scizor is slightly better here due to not worrying about their attacks. However, both may have to deal with Smokescreen hax, so neither matchup is particularly ideal.
level: 33/34
Scyther: Wing Attack deals with Haunter and Meganium, while 2HKOing Golbat. Rock Smash OHKOs Sneasel and 2HKOs Magnemite which proceeds to paralyze you.
Scizor: it's slower than Golbat and Haunter, but STAB 2HKOs and OHKOs, respectively. Rock Smash OHKOs Sneasel and Magnemite. Meganium is dealt with easily.
conclusion: both are good for this fight. Neither is better, because each struggles with different things; Scizor is slower than Haunter and Golbat, so is more likely to be haxed, wheres Scyther has to skip Magnemite. Scyther does KO more things than Scizor with little hassle, but it only beats one more Pokemon than Scizor, so this difference is just nitpicking
level: 34
Scyther: Wing Attack 2HKOs Golbat and 3HKOs Weezing. Weezing 4HKOs with Sludge, while Wing Attack from Golbat 3HKOs. Your biggest worry here is Smokescreen, but otherwise, good matchup
Scizor: Metal Claw 2HKOs Golbat and 3HKOs Weezing. Scizor is slower than Golbat, so expect confusion. Weezing doesn't have anything to threaten you with, but Smokescreen can be annoying
conclusion: Scizor has a safer matchup against Weezing, but Scyther is better for Golbat. Both struggle with Weezing hax, but Scizor is less affected by it. Not giving a win to either.
level: 34
Scyther: Wing Attack OHKOs Murkrow and Vileplume. -1 Wing Attack 3HKOs Arbok. Intimidate can perhaps change the rolls.
Scizor: Metal Claw OHKOs Murkrow and Wing Attack OHKOs Vileplume. -1 Metal Claw 3HKOs Arbok, I assume the Intimidate will affect the other rolls too. Arbok and Plume don't threaten it.
conclusion: both are better off avoiding Arbok to avoid the Glare hassle. Scizor is slightly less threatened by Arbok, but Glare is still fairly annoying. Both are good for this fight and none is particularly better.
level: 35
Scyther: Wing Attack OHKOs Houndour and 2HKOs the rest. Outspeeds all. Scyther can live an attack from each, so a sweep is doable.
Scizor: beats Houndour and Koffing. Houndoom outspeeds and OHKOs with Fire Fang
conclusion: Scyther is better here as it can beat Houndoom, while Scizor can't.
level: 37
both: at most beats one Dragonair, more specifically the non-Fire Blast one
conclusion: fully equal, none of them is outperforming the other one, unless you think that being paralyzed first will affect this significantly (in which case Scyther is better).
level: 40
Scyther: outspeeds everything. Wing Attack OHKOs Kadabra and Haunter and 2HKOs Golbat, while easily beating Meganium. Sneasel is OHKOed by Rock Smash. Magneton paralyzes
Scizor: Rock Smash OHKOs Sneasel and Metal Claw 2HKOs Golbat. Wing Attack deals with Meganium and Metal Claw covers Haunter and Kadabra. Note that Haunter is faster and can Curse, while Golbat can confuse. Magneton lives a Rock Smash and paralyzes
conclusion: Scyther is better here, as it can simply outspeed and kill most of his team. Scizor isn't bad here, but Scyther outperforms it to an extent.
level: 43 (applies to all E4 members)
Scyther: 2HKOs Xatu #1 with Wing Attack. X-Scissor OHKOs Jynx and Eggy and 2HKOs Slowbro (still 2HKOed even after one Curse). Xatu #2 is the only Pokemon you want to avoid
Scizor: Metal Claw 2HKOs Xatu #1 and X-Scissor deals with Jynx, Slowbro, and Eggy. I got lucky and got an Attack boost, which allowed me to almost OHKO Xatu #2. However, you resist Psychic, so it shouldn't be a problem. Do note that Xatu and Jynx are faster, so they can hax you.
conclusion: both are very good for this fight. Scyther deals with less hax, but Scizor is capable of sweeping. Leaning slightly towards in favor of Scyther, as those kills are more guaranteed, but both are very good here, so it's not important. Note: Jynx is most likely an easy kill with Bullet Punch, but I wanted to try Iron Defense and thus had no room for BPunch
Scyther: Wing Attack OHKOs Moth and Ariados and 3HKOs Forry. Avoid the rest
Scizor: Wing Attack 2HKOs Ariados and Venomoth and muscles through Forry. Crobat's Wing Attack is a 5HKO, while Metal Claw is a 4HKO. However, DTeam can get it out of control. Muk is 3HKOed by Metal Claw and walled entirely, but Minimize makes this annoying
conclusion: both are good for this fight. I would say Scizor is slightly better here due to walling Muk, though Scyther killing the bugs faster does give it some advantage, so I'd say they are both equally useful here.
Scyther: beats the Hitmons by OHKOing all of them. Machamp lives one Wing Attack and KOs with Rock Slide.
Scizor: Iron Defense to the max and OHKO Lee and 2HKO the other Hitmons with Wing Attack. It is possible to beat Machamp since you 2HKO with Wing Attack and live a Cross Chop on rolls after taking Blaze Kick and Fire Punch.
conclusion: Scyther is more efficient for killing the Hitmons. Scizor can potentially beat all of them + Machamp, but it's rolls-based and takes more time.
Scyther: X-Scissor 2HKOs Umbreon. Wing Attack 2HKOs Vileplume and Gengar, the latter of which is faster and can DBond. Murkrow is 2HKOed, but hits hard with Pluck
Scizor: X-Scissor 2HKOs Umbreon. Wing Attack and Metal Claw 2HKO Vileplume and Gengar, respectively, the latter of which is faster. Murkrow is also 2HKOed.
conclusion: they are pretty much the same here. Scizor can probs take out a few more threats as it doesn't take as much damage from Murkrow, but that's also easy to kill by a teammate, so...
concluion: Scyther and Scizor had similar EVs for the end-game, which means that none of them have been favorized at the cost of the other.
overall conclusion (lots of data incoming):
there are in total 18 fights in which I tested both (Lance is not counted, as I never bothered testing against him), including the one where Scizor doesn't exist, but Scyther does.
Here are the total number of matchups, categorized:
Matchups where both were equal or very similar in performance (to the point I don't consider any particularly better): Whitney, all Silver fights bar the last one, Petrel (both fights), Jasmine*, Proton #2, Ariana, Clair*, Will, Koga, Bruno, Karen (total: 13)
Matchups where Scyther was significantly better than Scizor: Morty, Chuck, Archer**, last Silver fight (total: 4)
Matchup where Scizor was significantly better than Scyther: Pryce (total: 1)
* - considered a bad matchup for both, which is why they are considered similar performance
** - could honestly also be put in the "equal" category, as Scizor takes on two Pokemon there as well, just that Scyther beats the more important one. Archer is technically not significantly better matchup for Scyther, but it's not insignificant either. For the purposes of the data, I will simply treat him as significantly better.
I want to warn that what I consider "similar" and "significantly better" is pretty much subjective. For some people, Bruno is significantly better for Scyther and some TR admins are better for Scizor. In my personal opinion, those are matchups where you can easily use both and accomplish similar achievements, even if not exactly the same.
If my data was to be treated as least biased and factual, then Scizor has only one matchup where I would heavily prefer using it over Scyther and that is Pryce. In fact, Pryce is a sweep, which I have only ever done with Meganium and the level 50 Gyarados. However, Scyther has a lot of (key) matchups where I'd much rather use it than Scizor. I would classify two of those as more important than the other two (Morty and Chuck, in this case).
conclusion from data: there's little reason to use Scizor over Scyther. Scyther is significantly more useful in four matchups, two of which are Gym Leaders. Scizor is only ever a choice for me if I need something to sweep Pryce, but in every other instance, I either would prefer Scyther or I would be fine with Scyther as well. Any difference outside of those five matchups is mostly negligible, minor, or nitpicky, which is why I don't count none in neither's favor.
I am leaning towards supporting the tiers they are in right now, that is, Scizor in C and Scyther in B. I think Scyther is very much one tier above Scizor, especially if you take Pryce away, which would be the only reason you'd evolve your Scyther. Scizor requires unnecessary amount of time and effort to be obtained (aka finding one with Technician, catching it, then grinding Metal Coat) to get a Pokemon that will often be outsped by bunch of Haunters and Golbats and potentially haxed to death. I could maybe see Scyther in A (and therefore Scizor in B), but I think trying to get one is such a nightmare that t's hard to imagine it next to all the other Pokemon that don't have this problem.
I could maybe live with both in B, but I do not agree with the idea that Scizor is better than Scyther. In my opinion, Scyther is more efficient for usage, even in terms of matchups. If people really have a problem with Scizor being a tier below Scyther, we could maybe merge Scyther in one entry and only highlight Scizor's Pryce matchup and mention that outside of that, Scizor isn't worth using.
Ultimately, all of this data is made so that Turdterra can read it and decide what is the best course of action. The possible options seem to be:
1) maintain status quo (most preferred by me) - keep Scyther in B and Scizor in C
2) push Scizor to B due to Pryce sweep and comparable performance to Scyther in most matchups
3) merge both and only mention Scizor to explain why you don't want to use it (and that it sweeps Pryce)
4) push Scyther to A and Scizor to B. This would solve a lot of problems people may have, but I am not sure if this is the best course of action
e: those are not ordered by preference, but which came up to my mind first
I hope you found this long post insightful. That was from me for HGSS, see ya in write-ups
It’s time for this thread to have its final post. Thanks to Ryota, I have decided to keep Scyther in B and Scizor in C. From his tests, I see little reason why Scizor should be in the same tier when they have the same amount of MUs (barring Whitney) but Scyther has more key ones than Scizor. Scyther will also not be put into A due to requiring Technician which is 50%, actually finding and capturing one in the Contest, and not having trash IVs. Just a lot of work there.
And finally, as I’ve stated, I would like to thank everybody who tested, offered insights, and helped place the Pokémon for this list.
DHR-107 or Codraroll, you may lock this thread. We are moving to write-ups.
