Pokemon FireRed and LeafGreen In-Game Tier List

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Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
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Thanks for the corrections on the TMs and exp groups. What about the low speed? Do you think there are still advantages that keep it at B?
Per personal experience, the Speed itself didn't affect its sweeping potential too much; it is bulkier than Lee on average and its slightly higher Attack means that it can set up more safely (in most matchups) and spend fewer turns to do that, thus reducing the amount of opportunities of damaging it. Guts also helps it with matchups like Koga that are very difficult for most physical attackers (and Erika, though Lee happens to be good there too due to Limber). It helps that a lot of the bosses are physical attackers, which means that Bulk Up + the decent bulk can negate the damage at some point

It will certainly require healing if you want a full sweep in the last fights, but the same can be said about Hitmonlee, it's something none of the Fighting-types can really escape, unfortunately

(I don't have recent logs on me, so memories may be off)
 
I have the same view on Exeggutor, it's a solid B-rank that sadly comes too late to justify A-tier but should never be anywhere near C-rank.

As for Jynx, it should 100% be S-tier as it's imo the best mon in the game, even after taking account of its late arrival. Other Psychic-types have some usability problems. Abra is annoying to catch and requires babying to level 16 while Mr.Mime requires a backtrack and comes a bit underleveled. Jynx comes at a decent level, is incredibly easy to train thanks to boosted exp and thanks to Lavender Tower, it will easily catch up to the rest of the team level. Afterwards, it's more likely than not that Jynx will outlevel the rest of the team. Coming with great IVs and nature is another perk Jynx has over Kadabra/Alakazam. The main reason why Jynx should be S-tier is how busted it is, it just walks through the game, without any trouble. Each major battle, even Blaine (it's easy to set up 2 CM On Growlithe and from there everything is outsped and OHKOed) is a nearly guaranteed win. The only exception is Lance's Aerodactyl assuming it outspeeds and potentially the fire-type from Rival. Jynx is really that good and between defeating everything and having boosted exp, it's by far the best Pokemon you can use in the game. It's pretty self-sufficient as it only requires the CM TM and Psychic TM, that are only used on other Psychic-types that you would probably not run with Jynx (or Golduck for the Calm Mind TM). Even performance-wise, there isn't much difference between Jynx, Kadabra, Alakazam and Mr.Mime. Mr.Mime will come underleveled for Surge most likely and the Abra line requires babying and both lose to Misty anyway. Surge is admitedly great to defeat but he's skippable anyway. All in all, Jynx is perfectly fine in S-tier, it's available for 5 gyms, the Elite 4, easy to train, has boosted exp and great IVs and easily defeats nearly every single Pokemon, it's really that good.
I used it a long time ago like as a solo-ish run for SOMETHiNG in FRLG, forget what it was that I was doing, but Jynx was busted even without Calm Mind. The only reason I didn't quote my experience with it just now was because it's been literal years since that happened and thus requires taking it with the whole salt shaker. It gained levels like crazy.

It's a shame Jynx never really is great in any of the other games though. It's tailor made for the back half of Kanto.

Thanks for the corrections on the TMs and exp groups. What about the low speed? Do you think there are still advantages that keep it at B?
Okay, so about Hitmonlee. It's really attractive on paper. 120 Attack with 87 Speed sounds like it'd be an easy B-tier. But I think it's way more at home in C. Here were my experiences with Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan, The short version of that post (I for all intents and purposes consider Lee and Chan roughly the same Pokemon) was that I felt they chugged boosts way too much to be viable, like glancing back at my old thoughts the only one I didn't seem to need boosts to kill the relevant things was like...Giovanni...who is lol Giovanni, not exactly a big point in their favor - you really, really have to have a bad team to not faceroll over Giovanni with something in a standard party. This isn't a comment on Hitmons, I am aware, but I weigh Giovanni less than other bosses.

But back to Bulk Up boosts. The more you boost in major battles, the more you open yourself up to recieving trolling critical hits (see: Slowbro). On top of this, Fighting has never, ever been a good type in Kanto, regardless of how great your stats are. Erika resists Fighting, Koga resists it, Sabrina resists it, Blaine might as well resist it with double Intimidate. On top of this, Agatha makes Fighting types borderline useless outside MAYBE one KO, and Lance really isn't much better - Hyper Beam is just going to nuke you AND Gyarados has Intimidate.

Boosting means matchups inherently take longer than say, a Pokemon that just spams Surf, Flamethrower, or what have you (which are resisted way less). If you're a Fighting type in these games, it is a huge, HUGE uphill battle to make B tier any way you slice it unless you have like, legendary stats or something like Lugia in HGSS where you faceroll everything at the League. Hitmons and Machamp don't really have that luxury, though I can't speak for Machamp entirely as I haven't used it.

So you've got a Pokemon that, while it can sweep Sabrina through Ai idiocy, more or less doesn't start being relevant unless it takes a turn or two to boost, upon which most of the time, you won't even use Fighting moves. You play like a STAB-less Normal type, and there are plenty of Normal types who Strength / Return better obviously. Yes, we tier Pokemon on their own merits, but spamming Brick Break almost exclusively with Hitmons won't get you anywhere, you HAVE to use Strength / Return constantly.

Hitmonchan and Hitmonlee, despite how attractive the stats are, are just Pokemon you have to use in super specific ways that don't even highlight their strengths as Fighting types - the Fighting type brings almost nothing but negatives for them because their STAB is always resisted.

Hope this response helps!
 
I used it a long time ago like as a solo-ish run for SOMETHiNG in FRLG, forget what it was that I was doing, but Jynx was busted even without Calm Mind. The only reason I didn't quote my experience with it just now was because it's been literal years since that happened and thus requires taking it with the whole salt shaker. It gained levels like crazy.

It's a shame Jynx never really is great in any of the other games though. It's tailor made for the back half of Kanto.


Okay, so about Hitmonlee. It's really attractive on paper. 120 Attack with 87 Speed sounds like it'd be an easy B-tier. But I think it's way more at home in C. Here were my experiences with Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan, The short version of that post (I for all intents and purposes consider Lee and Chan roughly the same Pokemon) was that I felt they chugged boosts way too much to be viable, like glancing back at my old thoughts the only one I didn't seem to need boosts to kill the relevant things was like...Giovanni...who is lol Giovanni, not exactly a big point in their favor - you really, really have to have a bad team to not faceroll over Giovanni with something in a standard party. This isn't a comment on Hitmons, I am aware, but I weigh Giovanni less than other bosses.

But back to Bulk Up boosts. The more you boost in major battles, the more you open yourself up to recieving trolling critical hits (see: Slowbro). On top of this, Fighting has never, ever been a good type in Kanto, regardless of how great your stats are. Erika resists Fighting, Koga resists it, Sabrina resists it, Blaine might as well resist it with double Intimidate. On top of this, Agatha makes Fighting types borderline useless outside MAYBE one KO, and Lance really isn't much better - Hyper Beam is just going to nuke you AND Gyarados has Intimidate.

Boosting means matchups inherently take longer than say, a Pokemon that just spams Surf, Flamethrower, or what have you (which are resisted way less). If you're a Fighting type in these games, it is a huge, HUGE uphill battle to make B tier any way you slice it unless you have like, legendary stats or something like Lugia in HGSS where you faceroll everything at the League. Hitmons and Machamp don't really have that luxury, though I can't speak for Machamp entirely as I haven't used it.

So you've got a Pokemon that, while it can sweep Sabrina through Ai idiocy, more or less doesn't start being relevant unless it takes a turn or two to boost, upon which most of the time, you won't even use Fighting moves. You play like a STAB-less Normal type, and there are plenty of Normal types who Strength / Return better obviously. Yes, we tier Pokemon on their own merits, but spamming Brick Break almost exclusively with Hitmons won't get you anywhere, you HAVE to use Strength / Return constantly.

Hitmonchan and Hitmonlee, despite how attractive the stats are, are just Pokemon you have to use in super specific ways that don't even highlight their strengths as Fighting types - the Fighting type brings almost nothing but negatives for them because their STAB is always resisted.

Hope this response helps!
Some of these arguments could also be applied to Machamp. I agree - fighting types have issues in Kanto. From my playthroughs of both I can't wrap my head around placing Machamp in Lee in different tiers; they feel paired in terms of efficiency. Both B or both C. Both in B would be my vote, but very low B. Their differences I would argue cancel out:

-earlier to get (+) vs later in Saffron (-)
-bulkier (+) vs frailer (-)
-requires training for final evo (-) vs immediate final stats (+)
-slow (-) vs fast (+)
 
Some of these arguments could also be applied to Machamp. I agree - fighting types have issues in Kanto. From my playthroughs of both I can't wrap my head around placing Machamp in Lee in different tiers; they feel paired in terms of efficiency. Both B or both C. Both in B would be my vote, but very low B. Their differences I would argue cancel out:

-earlier to get (+) vs later in Saffron (-)
-bulkier (+) vs frailer (-)
-requires training for final evo (-) vs immediate final stats (+)
-slow (-) vs fast (+)
I think they average out to be roughly the same mon. But I just think all three of Hitmonlee / Chan / Machamp should be C. Fighting types will just always be too niche no matter how you slice it unless your name is Mankey where you come insanely early (even then, never had the best experiences with Mankey in the past, but it's too late to run with it / argue otherwise).
 
Honestly, I feel the fighting-types are fine in B-tier and C-tier respectively (and Mankey in A-tier). Mankey is absolutely fine in A because it's available really early for Brock (helpful if you use Charmander), may win against Surge and Erika, does something against Koga thanks to Aerial Ace, actually wins against Sabrina and Giovanni while contributing a lot against Blaine. The E4 is pretty great as it sweeps Lorelei outside of Slowbro, Bruno most of the time and sweeps Agatha thanks to Aerial Ace !

While others fighting-types aren't available as early and can't win against Agatha (due to not getting Aerial Ace), they are still mostly good. Erika is winnable for Lee/Machamp despite the Poison-type after 2 Bulk Up. Koga is mostly bad but Lee/Chan/Champ can get up to 3 kills. Sabrina is definitely beatable most of the time due to bad AI and it will be a win 75% of the time. While they can't hope to defeat Blaine, by setting up on Growlithe, it's possible to beat the baby mons, Rapidash and doing half to Arcanine. Giovanni doesn't matter too much but winning against him is always cool. The Elite 4 is admitedly bad after Bruno but at least it's possible to beat Lorelei's whole team outside of Slowbro and a win against Bruno is feasible.

Really, while on paper, some matchup seem bad, fighting-types actually overperform in said matchup (i.e Erika, Koga, Sabrina and Blaine). In theory, it seems impossible to win against Erika and Sabrina but in practise, more often than not, it will result in a victory. The reason I feel Hitmonchan is worse is because it actually loses vs Erika (as it doesn't have Limber/Guts) and is a bit less consistent against Sabrina (as Alakazam is a range with +1 Strength) while performing similarly elsewhere.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
today's the day, with which this list is officially closed and therefore does not accept nominations anymore! Please do not reply to this thread anymore (even if it's still unlocked; it will be locked eventually)

Here are the last minute decisions:

Machamp -> C
Hitmonlee -> C
Slowpoke -> C

the tally for Hitmonlee was very close as a whole and it was hard to decide which tier to go with.

Nidoran-M and Exeggcute remain where they are due to not having enough votes to change their ranks. Tentacool is remaining B-tier because I appreciate not getting haxed to death (unlike Slowbro) and being immune to stats drops; regardless, it has almost never been nominated for lower than B-tier, so I will respect the votes for this.

Thank you to all people that contributed to this thread. If you write up enough Pokemon and have tested enough in this and previous thread, you may be credited as a co-author of the article.

This is the link to the write-ups thread

The OP of this thread will also be updated shortly

tagging DHR-107 to lock this thread
 
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