Metagame Pokébilities

Tuthur

formerly 0-7 in FCL
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Hey, I laddered a bit in this tier and wrote an RMT on the team I used.

I wanted to give my opinion on a couple thing that I find worrying in this tier.

:ss/conkeldurr:
While less powerful than last gen due to Weezing formes having Neutralizing Gas, Conkeldurr is still dumb af. There is almost nothing that switches safely into it, and the only counters it had (Weezing formes) wouldn't see any uses if Conkeldurr didn't exist. Its Speed is its only downside, unlike other stupidly strong wallbreaker, it is bulky + recovers health with Drain Punch, has a strong priority move, and isn't locked into a move. This means it is very hard to punish it and impossible to safely play around unless you are using terrible Pokemon in the Weezing formes. The reward for using Conkeldurr is too insane in comparison to the risk.

:ss/dracozolt:
In standard plays, Dracozolt has to pick between power and Speed. In Pokebilities, it has both. Under Sand, it outspeeds the whole tier bar extremely fast Choice Scarf users, letting it threaten most of the tier with stupidly strong Bolt Beak. Electric-immunities and strong resists aren't even safe due to Dracozolt's wide coverage and insane raw power, Fire Blast beats Ferrothorn, Dragon-STAB beats Ground-types, and Earthquake beats Magnezone. This Pokemon is just too much to handle, you're relying on winning predictions and dodging moves to answer it, that isn't healthy for a Pokemon that outspeeds everything, is quite bulky, and hits that hard.

:ss/cinccino:
Cinccino is a really strong wallbreaker, but it is manageable with Steel-types and Rocky Helmet users. Also it is quite frail and doesn't do to well versus weather teams. However, King's Rock turns it completely unhealthy, giving it huge odds of breaking through all its slower checks. King's Rock is banned from most standard tiers, and they don't even have something as strong as Cinccino. Ban it, it's not only broken, it is uncompetitive.

tldr: conkeldurr is unhealthy, dracozolt is broken, king's rock is broken and uncompetitive.
 
Played Two more matches today one with my rain team and one with my new Sun team.

Anti Meta seems as strong as I suspected. just having one pokemon around to change the weather to your favored type really screws with any strategy that they have

I'm unsure if this means anything noteworthy. Charizard solarpower = good what a surprise.

Edit: Forgot to list my pokemon again so ill compile the interesting ones here.


Exeggutor Alola. my weird Harvest Staller Ice types scary but it's one job is a pivot with it's bulk

Sitrus Berry for obvious reasons.

Dmeteor Flamethrower Psyshock

Standard but I also gave it teleport. it's job is to Bait attacks into ninetails being one of the pokemon i feel safe with leading if they lead with a hailsetter i switch to ninetails which eats the blizzard or blocks the veil set.

anything else it just laughs it off and eats the berry. which is can get back later.

The other pokemon that I think is worth mentioning comes from my rain team

Azumaril with life orb aquajet liquidation and double edge


and now for the weird move Steel Roller yeah you know who this is for mr Unga Bunga and grassy glide it nearly guarantees that whatever they switch to get's flattened since Rillaboom typically carries Glide and Close Combat banded. resisting it's favored ways to attack.
 
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I suck at teambuilding so apologies if this is horrendously bad:
Weezing-Galar @ Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Toxic
- Strange Steam
- Sludge Bomb
Nothing special here, just does damage and spreads poison
 
Ok, your statement about Conk is mostly right, however, there is one major flaw. Geezing actually gets quite a bit of use outside of countering Conk as it checks several other pokemon like Clefable, Cinccino, and Dracozolt and can easily facilitate pokemon like Hitmonlee and Hawlucha with Misty Surge, which it keeps, along with Levitate, even with Neutralizing Gas. Normal Weezing gets almost no use at all, but Geezing is actually still solid outside of countering Conkeldurr. One thing I disagree with is Conk being worse than in gen 7 pokebilities. The addition of Teleport makes it easier to bring Conk in with no consequences to wreak havoc on an opposing team and get a free Flame Orb proc without having to predict a switch.

I completely agree with everything you said about Dracozolt, though. Some people claim Hippo or Geezing counter Zolt, but slap a Dragon Fang on for Hippo or a Magnet for Geezing and they are now 2HKOd, meaning they are only checks. Or if you have good enough hazard control, you can use a Life Orb and kill two birds with one stone.

With Cinccino, there are a few things I will say. First off, yeah, it's extremely strong... on the surface. However, it gets worn down by hazards, crippled by status, and destroyed by contact punishment. It has 4 moveslot syndrome as it has to choose 3 of Rock Blast, Bullet Seed, Triple Axel, U-Turn, and Knock Off, it has single item syndrome as it has to choose between extra power that can be mandatory to get KOs in Band, Life Orb, and Silk Scarf, not taking hazard damage with Boots, or nullifying contact punishment with Pads, so it often doesn't run King's Rock because it needs other items. Do I think a 27% to flinch on Triple Axel or a 41% chance to flinch with Tail Slap, Bullet Seed, or Rock Blast is unhealthy, I don't think King's Rock becomes unhealthy until paired with moves that hit multiple times. However, due to the weaknesses Cinccino has that poses issues on its viability, King's Rock isn't too overwhelming or overcentralizing in the teambuilder or while battling in my opinion
think you quoted the wrong person there
 
Hey, I laddered a bit in this tier and wrote an RMT on the team I used.

I wanted to give my opinion on a couple thing that I find worrying in this tier.

:ss/conkeldurr:
While less powerful than last gen due to Weezing formes having Neutralizing Gas, Conkeldurr is still dumb af. There is almost nothing that switches safely into it, and the only counters it had (Weezing formes) wouldn't see any uses if Conkeldurr didn't exist. Its Speed is its only downside, unlike other stupidly strong wallbreaker, it is bulky + recovers health with Drain Punch, has a strong priority move, and isn't locked into a move. This means it is very hard to punish it and impossible to safely play around unless you are using terrible Pokemon in the Weezing formes. The reward for using Conkeldurr is too insane in comparison to the risk.

:ss/dracozolt:
In standard plays, Dracozolt has to pick between power and Speed. In Pokebilities, it has both. Under Sand, it outspeeds the whole tier bar extremely fast Choice Scarf users, letting it threaten most of the tier with stupidly strong Bolt Beak. Electric-immunities and strong resists aren't even safe due to Dracozolt's wide coverage and insane raw power, Fire Blast beats Ferrothorn, Dragon-STAB beats Ground-types, and Earthquake beats Magnezone. This Pokemon is just too much to handle, you're relying on winning predictions and dodging moves to answer it, that isn't healthy for a Pokemon that outspeeds everything, is quite bulky, and hits that hard.

:ss/cinccino:
Cinccino is a really strong wallbreaker, but it is manageable with Steel-types and Rocky Helmet users. Also it is quite frail and doesn't do to well versus weather teams. However, King's Rock turns it completely unhealthy, giving it huge odds of breaking through all its slower checks. King's Rock is banned from most standard tiers, and they don't even have something as strong as Cinccino. Ban it, it's not only broken, it is uncompetitive.

tldr: conkeldurr is unhealthy, dracozolt is broken, king's rock is broken and uncompetitive.
Ok, your statement about Conk is mostly right, however, there is one major flaw. Geezing actually gets quite a bit of use outside of countering Conk as it checks several other pokemon like Clefable, Cinccino, and Dracozolt and can easily facilitate pokemon like Hitmonlee and Hawlucha with Misty Surge, which it keeps, along with Levitate, even with Neutralizing Gas. Normal Weezing gets almost no use at all, but Geezing is actually still solid outside of countering Conkeldurr. One thing I disagree with is Conk being worse than in gen 7 pokebilities. The addition of Teleport makes it easier to bring Conk in with no consequences to wreak havoc on an opposing team and get a free Flame Orb proc without having to predict a switch.

I completely agree with everything you said about Dracozolt, though. Some people claim Hippo or Geezing counter Zolt, but slap a Dragon Fang on for Hippo or a Magnet for Geezing and they are now 2HKOd, meaning they are only checks. Or if you have good enough hazard control, you can use a Life Orb and kill two birds with one stone.

With Cinccino, there are a few things I will say. First off, yeah, it's extremely strong... on the surface. However, it gets worn down by hazards, crippled by status, and destroyed by contact punishment. It has 4 moveslot syndrome as it has to choose 3 of Rock Blast, Bullet Seed, Triple Axel, U-Turn, and Knock Off, it has single item syndrome as it has to choose between extra power that can be mandatory to get KOs in Band, Life Orb, and Silk Scarf, not taking hazard damage with Boots, or nullifying contact punishment with Pads, so it often doesn't run King's Rock because it needs other items. Do I think a 27% to flinch on Triple Axel or a 41% chance to flinch with Tail Slap, Bullet Seed, or Rock Blast is unhealthy, I don't think King's Rock becomes unhealthy until paired with moves that hit multiple times. However, due to the weaknesses Cinccino has that poses issues on its viability, King's Rock isn't too overwhelming or overcentralizing in the teambuilder or while battling in my opinion
 
Ok, your statement about Conk is mostly right, however, there is one major flaw. Geezing actually gets quite a bit of use outside of countering Conk as it checks several other pokemon like Clefable, Cinccino, and Dracozolt and can easily facilitate pokemon like Hitmonlee and Hawlucha with Misty Surge, which it keeps, along with Levitate, even with Neutralizing Gas. Normal Weezing gets almost no use at all, but Geezing is actually still solid outside of countering Conkeldurr. One thing I disagree with is Conk being worse than in gen 7 pokebilities. The addition of Teleport makes it easier to bring Conk in with no consequences to wreak havoc on an opposing team and get a free Flame Orb proc without having to predict a switch.

I completely agree with everything you said about Dracozolt, though. Some people claim Hippo or Geezing counter Zolt, but slap a Dragon Fang on for Hippo or a Magnet for Geezing and they are now 2HKOd, meaning they are only checks. Or if you have good enough hazard control, you can use a Life Orb and kill two birds with one stone.

With Cinccino, there are a few things I will say. First off, yeah, it's extremely strong... on the surface. However, it gets worn down by hazards, crippled by status, and destroyed by contact punishment. It has 4 moveslot syndrome as it has to choose 3 of Rock Blast, Bullet Seed, Triple Axel, U-Turn, and Knock Off, it has single item syndrome as it has to choose between extra power that can be mandatory to get KOs in Band, Life Orb, and Silk Scarf, not taking hazard damage with Boots, or nullifying contact punishment with Pads, so it often doesn't run King's Rock because it needs other items. Do I think a 27% to flinch on Triple Axel or a 41% chance to flinch with Tail Slap, Bullet Seed, or Rock Blast is unhealthy, I don't think King's Rock becomes unhealthy until paired with moves that hit multiple times. However, due to the weaknesses Cinccino has that poses issues on its viability, King's Rock isn't too overwhelming or overcentralizing in the teambuilder or while battling in my opinion
Personally I don't think the overall strength of something matters if it's uncompetitive. Even if Kings Rock "isn't viable" it's just RNG for RNG's sake, there is literally no reason NOT to ban it regardless.
 
Personally I don't think the overall strength of something matters if it's uncompetitive. Even if Kings Rock "isn't viable" it's just RNG for RNG's sake, there is literally no reason NOT to ban it regardless.
I see your argument, but there is one thing that I do think you are misisng. What makes things like King's Rock and Quick Claw uncompetitive is that it lets players have some control over their RNG. It's not like using Dark Pulse and getting the 20% flinch chance because the King's Rock only gives the effect to moves that don't have a built in flinch chance. However, where I draw the line if something needs to be banned is if it's overcentralizing. Conk is such a huge threat that forces sacks just to bring in a mon to threaten it out and Dracozolt is much in the same vein where every team is forced to have a pokemon that counters specifically it or else be ran over. That is overcentralizing, where the subject takes up so much of the meta that the majority of the meta is finding ways to counter just that one thing. King's Rock simply isn't like that. The only pokemon that can reliably run King's Rock are those with multi hit moves, which, even with King's Rock, have simple counterplay that most teams have, like a physically defensive steel type which can't be nullified because of a flinch, being able to naturally take several attacks from a pokemon. However, there are more components than just being overcentralizing that make something banworthy. Pokemon naturally has RNG built into it, but I do agree with you that letting players take the RNG into their own hands is uncompetitive in my opinion as well. My argument isn't against it being uncompetitive and I'm not advocating against a ban, my argument is simply that while uncompetitive, it isn't strictly overcentralizing.
 
Why, Dracozolt?
Burned Dracozolt cleaning up over half of a team while having effectively 75% of its original attack because Hustle makes it 1.5x and burn makes it 1/2 and with an effective +1 in speed instead of +2 in speed because of Sticky Web is not something that I think shows signs of a pokemon being healthy in a metagame. To be honest, I do think the main culprit for why this pokemon is so overcentralizing is Bolt Beak, but it makes much more sense to ban a pokemon than it does to ban a move, especially because all gen 8 fossils are useless without Bolt Beak/Fishous Rend. Fishous Rend is even the only reason why Dracovish was banned back before IoA came out in SS OU, but since there are pokemon who have shown to still have several struggles and not be overwhelming despite having these absolutely broken attacks, I don't think it's fair to let them lose out on any sense of viability because of what another pokemon did. I didn't even have a power boosting item on Dracozolt, and it still ran through his team. Even if poorly built, Zolt shouldn't have ran through his Arcanine while having 50% of its attack because the burn and -1. Granted, yes, he did misplay by using Teleport instead of trying to stall out sand turns and spam heal with Morning Sun, but no pokemon that has their stats lowered this much should be able to progress this much, even if it has abilities like Sand Rush and Hustle. Even while burned and at -3, that Bolt Beak is still a guaranteed OHKO on Gyara, and it would've been even without rocks. Don't believe me? Here's a calc

-3 252 Atk Hustle burned Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 338-398 (102.1 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And yes, I know that it is 4x super effective, but the point still stands that Dracozolt is too restricting in both teambuilding and in play, especially if able to pull all of this off with every stat nerf it got hit with in this game.
 
Why, Dracozolt?
Burned Dracozolt cleaning up over half of a team while having effectively 75% of its original attack because Hustle makes it 1.5x and burn makes it 1/2 and with an effective +1 in speed instead of +2 in speed because of Sticky Web is not something that I think shows signs of a pokemon being healthy in a metagame. To be honest, I do think the main culprit for why this pokemon is so overcentralizing is Bolt Beak, but it makes much more sense to ban a pokemon than it does to ban a move, especially because all gen 8 fossils are useless without Bolt Beak/Fishous Rend. Fishous Rend is even the only reason why Dracovish was banned back before IoA came out in SS OU, but since there are pokemon who have shown to still have several struggles and not be overwhelming despite having these absolutely broken attacks, I don't think it's fair to let them lose out on any sense of viability because of what another pokemon did. I didn't even have a power boosting item on Dracozolt, and it still ran through his team. Even if poorly built, Zolt shouldn't have ran through his Arcanine while having 50% of its attack because the burn and -1. Granted, yes, he did misplay by using Teleport instead of trying to stall out sand turns and spam heal with Morning Sun, but no pokemon that has their stats lowered this much should be able to progress this much, even if it has abilities like Sand Rush and Hustle. Even while burned and at -3, that Bolt Beak is still a guaranteed OHKO on Gyara, and it would've been even without rocks. Don't believe me? Here's a calc

-3 252 Atk Hustle burned Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 338-398 (102.1 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And yes, I know that it is 4x super effective, but the point still stands that Dracozolt is too restricting in both teambuilding and in play, especially if able to pull all of this off with every stat nerf it got hit with in this game.
Yeah Bolt Beak and Rend are "problematic" for the health of the game the same way Snipe Shot Swords Dance and Nasty Plot are.

Let me get on my damn soap box before yall lynch me. Hyper Offense is a problem being able to set up without fear is a problem (due to forcing them to switch or eating an attack that will maybe do 40% on a lucky crit) This has been my oppinion for a long time and obviously not nessicarily shared

Dracozolt and to some extent the rest of the fossils. Need Zero turns of setup.they can screw you from turn one.

Choice Scarf Bolt Beak Hustle.
Sticky Web (with not enough counterplay to stop it from being deployed in the first place with galvantulas speed and only two moves removing it) Choice Band Hustle Bolt Beak in this example theres no risk to dracozolt at all since it's not even the pokemon setting things up.

Once Web is down your only real options are pray you have a ground type with spin or defog.

But now let's take the band out of the equation let's give it wide lens instead. let's be honest it does not need choice to 1 hit ko most teams. and that prankster the only realy way to guarantee going first after web is down does not work on rapid spin.

so now your only choice is defog and hope to ko it from full hp. probably losing your prankster in the process or burn.........which it will stillKO in one or two hits meaning your losing about 1.5 pokemon to it on average. and that's IF IFFFF your prankster is bulky enough to survive the beak even with the burn.

and since were here I feel the same way about Conk since it also removes the primary way of dealing with hyper attack power pokemon with Guts. Going triple for this game mode.
 
Yeah Bolt Beak and Rend are "problematic" for the health of the game the same way Snipe Shot Swords Dance and Nasty Plot are.

Let me get on my damn soap box before yall lynch me. Hyper Offense is a problem being able to set up without fear is a problem (due to forcing them to switch or eating an attack that will maybe do 40% on a lucky crit) This has been my oppinion for a long time and obviously not nessicarily shared

Dracozolt and to some extent the rest of the fossils. Need Zero turns of setup.they can screw you from turn one.

Choice Scarf Bolt Beak Hustle.
Sticky Web (with not enough counterplay to stop it from being deployed in the first place with galvantulas speed and only two moves removing it) Choice Band Hustle Bolt Beak in this example theres no risk to dracozolt at all since it's not even the pokemon setting things up.

Once Web is down your only real options are pray you have a ground type with spin or defog.

But now let's take the band out of the equation let's give it wide lens instead. let's be honest it does not need choice to 1 hit ko most teams. and that prankster the only realy way to guarantee going first after web is down does not work on rapid spin.

so now your only choice is defog and hope to ko it from full hp. probably losing your prankster in the process or burn.........which it will stillKO in one or two hits meaning your losing about 1.5 pokemon to it on average. and that's IF IFFFF your prankster is bulky enough to survive the beak even with the burn.

and since were here I feel the same way about Conk since it also removes the primary way of dealing with hyper attack power pokemon with Guts. Going triple for this game mode.
Completely agreed. The meta completely revolves around Zolt and Conk and how to counter or use them. That is what I consider overcentralizing in pokemon, if a pokemon IS the meta instead of just a part of the meta. Back to the Dracovish example I used in my original post. Every team had to have one of a Water Absorb user, Toxapex, or Ferrothorn, often times 2 or even all 3 of these just to deal with one single pokemon. Dracovish warped the entire metagame around itself and dealing with it, which is what I feel Zolt and Conk are doing in pokebilities, especially because they aren't even locked into one attack often, unlike Dracovish was due to having to run a Choice item, meaning you don't have to rely nearly as much on prediction.
 
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I've been having a lot of fun with Sandaconda


Sandaconda @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Spit
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Body Press
- Sleep Talk
- Iron Defense

Shed Skin means it loves rest and Sand Veil makes it harder to hit, and it doesn't mind other weather setters switching in on it since Sand Spit activates after their attack and sets sandstorm again, Sleep talk helps you boost defense or hit with body press while you're sleeping (which was most of the time). Don't think it can get OHKO'd by Azumarill or Gyarados but it hates taking a Conkeldurr Ice Punch to the face and Dragapult is immune to Body Press which means Sandaconda has no way to deal with it in this set, which is why I came up with this next set.


Sandaconda @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Spit
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Atk / 168 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Outrage
- Coil

This Set swaps Iron Defense for Coil to get the Attack and Accuracy Boosts and Body Press for Outrage to counter non-bulky Dragapults and it gets a guaranteed KO with Outrage and two ticks of Sand (Rest turn 1 to heal up completely from whatever attack Dragapult hits you with for sleep and hope Shed Skin doesn't activate and then Sleep Talk into Outrage, which doesn't lock you in or give you confusion). Also just a 25% chance to straight up OHKO with Outrage on a Dragapult with minimum defense, definitely not a reliable way to deal with Dragapult though since you'd need a lot of luck.

Of the two sets I think the second is a lot more successful since it actually is threatening with Outrage, though it can't hit Fairy types, you could run something like Protect or Earthquake or Body Press instead of Sleep Talk but I don't think it needs to and using Sleep Talk is much more funny and prevents confusions from Outrage.

Would like to see what others think because imo Sandaconda might be a little under rated.
 
I've been having a lot of fun with Sandaconda


Sandaconda @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Spit
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Body Press
- Sleep Talk
- Iron Defense

Shed Skin means it loves rest and Sand Veil makes it harder to hit, and it doesn't mind other weather setters switching in on it since Sand Spit activates after their attack and sets sandstorm again, Sleep talk helps you boost defense or hit with body press while you're sleeping (which was most of the time). Don't think it can get OHKO'd by Azumarill or Gyarados but it hates taking a Conkeldurr Ice Punch to the face and Dragapult is immune to Body Press which means Sandaconda has no way to deal with it in this set, which is why I came up with this next set.


Sandaconda @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Spit
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Atk / 168 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Outrage
- Coil

This Set swaps Iron Defense for Coil to get the Attack and Accuracy Boosts and Body Press for Outrage to counter non-bulky Dragapults and it gets a guaranteed KO with Outrage and two ticks of Sand (Rest turn 1 to heal up completely from whatever attack Dragapult hits you with for sleep and hope Shed Skin doesn't activate and then Sleep Talk into Outrage, which doesn't lock you in or give you confusion). Also just a 25% chance to straight up OHKO with Outrage on a Dragapult with minimum defense, definitely not a reliable way to deal with Dragapult though since you'd need a lot of luck.

Of the two sets I think the second is a lot more successful since it actually is threatening with Outrage, though it can't hit Fairy types, you could run something like Protect or Earthquake or Body Press instead of Sleep Talk but I don't think it needs to and using Sleep Talk is much more funny and prevents confusions from Outrage.

Would like to see what others think because imo Sandaconda might be a little under rated.
Heyyy it's you. Compound Eyes mostly counters sand veil but it is a good idea. It does make me want to build a sand team if nothing else.

Good match GG.
 
I've been having a lot of fun with Sandaconda


Sandaconda @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Spit
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Body Press
- Sleep Talk
- Iron Defense

Shed Skin means it loves rest and Sand Veil makes it harder to hit, and it doesn't mind other weather setters switching in on it since Sand Spit activates after their attack and sets sandstorm again, Sleep talk helps you boost defense or hit with body press while you're sleeping (which was most of the time). Don't think it can get OHKO'd by Azumarill or Gyarados but it hates taking a Conkeldurr Ice Punch to the face and Dragapult is immune to Body Press which means Sandaconda has no way to deal with it in this set, which is why I came up with this next set.


Sandaconda @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Spit
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Atk / 168 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Outrage
- Coil

This Set swaps Iron Defense for Coil to get the Attack and Accuracy Boosts and Body Press for Outrage to counter non-bulky Dragapults and it gets a guaranteed KO with Outrage and two ticks of Sand (Rest turn 1 to heal up completely from whatever attack Dragapult hits you with for sleep and hope Shed Skin doesn't activate and then Sleep Talk into Outrage, which doesn't lock you in or give you confusion). Also just a 25% chance to straight up OHKO with Outrage on a Dragapult with minimum defense, definitely not a reliable way to deal with Dragapult though since you'd need a lot of luck.

Of the two sets I think the second is a lot more successful since it actually is threatening with Outrage, though it can't hit Fairy types, you could run something like Protect or Earthquake or Body Press instead of Sleep Talk but I don't think it needs to and using Sleep Talk is much more funny and prevents confusions from Outrage.

Would like to see what others think because imo Sandaconda might be a little under rated.
Sandaconda is definitely underrated, but not by much. It's like a worse Hippowdon. No Toxic for other walls (more useful than Glare against defensive pokemon), no Whirlwind, no Slack Off, no Sand Force (pokebilities only), it's mostly outclassed because it's much lower HP, even despite it's higher defense. However, it's abilities can make it annoying. Sand Veil+Shed Skin makes Rest less unreliable (but still not reliable quite yet) and Sand Spit is a nice countermeasure to other weather setters coming in. However, Earthquake probably is better than Outrage since both have an immunity and Earthquake doesn't lock you into it+gives you stab. I mean, my Dragapult still killed your Sandaconda, even though I only hit 3 out of my 5 Hydro Pumps and you got the 1/3 chance of immediately pulling Outrage from Sleep Talk. You did get unlucky at the end by losing the Dracozolt speed tie, though
 
Sandaconda is definitely underrated, but not by much. It's like a worse Hippowdon. No Toxic for other walls (more useful than Glare against defensive pokemon), no Whirlwind, no Slack Off, no Sand Force (pokebilities only), it's mostly outclassed because it's much lower HP, even despite it's higher defense. However, it's abilities can make it annoying. Sand Veil+Shed Skin makes Rest less unreliable (but still not reliable quite yet) and Sand Spit is a nice countermeasure to other weather setters coming in. However, Earthquake probably is better than Outrage since both have an immunity and Earthquake doesn't lock you into it+gives you stab. I mean, my Dragapult still killed your Sandaconda, even though I only hit 3 out of my 5 Hydro Pumps and you got the 1/3 chance of immediately pulling Outrage from Sleep Talk. You did get unlucky at the end by losing the Dracozolt speed tie, though
Yeah, I tried some more and I never could end up getting a Sandaconda 1v1 with Dragapult, and max SpA and Specs Dragapult can OHKO Sandaconda with Hydropump too. Also setting up with Coil is completely shut down by Clefable and every other fairy type, G-Weezing especially since it shuts down Body Press and Earthquake sets too unfortunately.
 
I want to add into all the voices complaining about Conk, because it's such a dominant pokemon right now. From my experience (mainly low-ladder), counterplay is limited to either killing it first, Weezing, or making several correct predictions in a row so that you can finally switch in something that kills. Nothing switches in for free, Mach Punch can deal over half against faster, less bulky pokemon, elemental Punches give insane coverage+base power, and Drain Punch for recovery. Obviously, Conk can't run all of these moves, but the threat of them forces you to play guessing game after guessing game. Under Trick Room, Conkeldurr gains the ability to move first, which is honestly terrifying. Please do something about this mon, I'm not sure what options are available but it's not healthy.

On the other hand, I'm not seeing as many issues with Dracozolt. I've run into it multiple times, and it's a threat to be sure but not an insane one. However, I'm not sure how biased I am, as most of my time on ladder has been with a rain team. Once sand is gone, Zolt can be revenge killed relatively easily. As well, a few bulky mons can wall it a large part of the time. Ferrothorn in particular can sit on most variants. Unless Zolt is running Fire Blast or maybe Low Kick, it's not doing anything against Ferro. Again, my opinions on Dracozolt are probably skewed by the teams I've run, but I feel like with weather being as prominent as it is, this dragon isn't a broken piece of the metagame
 

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On the other hand, I'm not seeing as many issues with Dracozolt. I've run into it multiple times, and it's a threat to be sure but not an insane one. However, I'm not sure how biased I am, as most of my time on ladder has been with a rain team. Once sand is gone, Zolt can be revenge killed relatively easily. As well, a few bulky mons can wall it a large part of the time. Ferrothorn in particular can sit on most variants. Unless Zolt is running Fire Blast or maybe Low Kick, it's not doing anything against Ferro. Again, my opinions on Dracozolt are probably skewed by the teams I've run, but I feel like with weather being as prominent as it is, this dragon isn't a broken piece of the metagame
As a Zolt user I can assure you it's pretty cancerous. Adding a second sand setter to my team has made it nigh unstoppable, as this alone shifts the tide against any opposing weather. I'm reviewing the current sentiments with Rach and you can expect that some change will be coming in the near future!
 
I want to add into all the voices complaining about Conk, because it's such a dominant pokemon right now. From my experience (mainly low-ladder), counterplay is limited to either killing it first, Weezing, or making several correct predictions in a row so that you can finally switch in something that kills. Nothing switches in for free, Mach Punch can deal over half against faster, less bulky pokemon, elemental Punches give insane coverage+base power, and Drain Punch for recovery. Obviously, Conk can't run all of these moves, but the threat of them forces you to play guessing game after guessing game. Under Trick Room, Conkeldurr gains the ability to move first, which is honestly terrifying. Please do something about this mon, I'm not sure what options are available but it's not healthy.

On the other hand, I'm not seeing as many issues with Dracozolt. I've run into it multiple times, and it's a threat to be sure but not an insane one. However, I'm not sure how biased I am, as most of my time on ladder has been with a rain team. Once sand is gone, Zolt can be revenge killed relatively easily. As well, a few bulky mons can wall it a large part of the time. Ferrothorn in particular can sit on most variants. Unless Zolt is running Fire Blast or maybe Low Kick, it's not doing anything against Ferro. Again, my opinions on Dracozolt are probably skewed by the teams I've run, but I feel like with weather being as prominent as it is, this dragon isn't a broken piece of the metagame
Conk also gets Rock Slide (97 power after Sheer Force with higher accuracy than Stone Edge), Knock, Earthquake, Facade, and Jab as potential options.

And about Zolt, yes, it often relies on sand, but it's not like sand is bad without Dracozolt. One of the main issues is similar to that of Excadrill after it's initial unban in BW2. If you come across a sand team without one of the few Zolt counters, you get ran over, so people often resort to running Zolt themselves. Counters for Zolt are so few that people have started using Zolt on other weather teams and even non-weather teams just to try to stop the Zolts on sand. People used to say that Magnezone counters it, but hazards+High Horsepower/Earthquake is an OHKO, so that doesn't matter. Geezing and Hippo just need rocks and either Life Orb, Magnet, of Dragon Fang, so much of the game is just nullified because everything revolves around playing around these two pokemon. People will sacrifice a pokemon like Dragapult to keep a sand setter alive just for Zolt on a consistent basis because Zolt is a wincon in every game it's in, just like Conkeldurr
 
As a Zolt user I can assure you it's pretty cancerous. Adding a second sand setter to my team has made it nigh unstoppable, as this alone shifts the tide against any opposing weather. I'm reviewing the current sentiments with Rach and you can expect that some change will be coming in the near future!
When you say changes, do you mean to just Zolt, more pokemon, or just more balance changes like items, looking into some abilities, etc?
 
Hi guys, I reached Top 1 in Pokebilities and wanted to share my equipment that I use.
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Weezing @ Black Sludge
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Clear Smog
- Will-O-Wisp
- Flamethrower
- Pain Split
Weezing is for me the best pokemon in my team. It is the perfect answer for Regen mons, Clefable, Conkeldurr and in general any offensive pokemon that depends a lot on its ability to hit hard. It also has levitation and is immune to Earthquake.
Clear Smog is good for Clefa Calm Mind, Will-O-Wisp to burn the opponents and the rest to hit steel type.

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Earth Power
- Taunt
- Toxic
Heatran is the second pillar of my team. He defeats Stall Teams like a beast. I only have problems with other Heatran rivals.
With Flame Body it can burn the opponent's most annoying pokemon if I have to sacrifice it.
Taunt + Magma Storm is a classic in Heatran, but here it comes in handy. Even if the opponent has a Slowbro that ignores Taunt and escapes with Teleport, I can predict that and quickly switch to Weezing to negate the Regenerator ability.

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Knock Off
- Gyro Ball
- Leech Seed
- Spikes
Ferro does his job as usual, being the Water Resist of the team. With spikes and Knock Off he annoys the opponent, especially with variants of assault vest with Reuniclus. The Anticipation skill allows me to know what set the opponent has in certain specific situations (like Dragapult Flamethrower).


Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Teleport
- Protect
- Wish
Since Heatran and Weezing are pokemon that lack a reliable way to recover life on their own, a pokemon that passes Wish was mandatory for the type of team I wanted to put together.
Clefable was a better team option, as with Unaware+Magic Guard, it not only ensures I don't take damage from Toxic or hazards, but also ignores certain pokemon that use Shell Smash or any pokemon that increase their stats.

Zapdos @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Static
EVs: 248 HP / 240 Def / 20 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Volt Switch
- Defog
- Roost
Zapdos has the same set that you can find in OU, but with the bonus of getting Pressure as an ability, causing him to win the 1vs1 in a situation where Lando T spams Stealth Rock, since he naturally has more PP than Defog.

Hippowdon @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 8 Atk / 248 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock
- Slack Off
Hippowdon not only fails to fulfill the classic function it has in OU to defend, but also has the ability to put offensive pressure, thanks to Sand Force, its earthquake hits harder than normal, causing Toxapex or any pokemon that does not resist or is immune to its powerful earthquake to switch.

And this has been my team, I hope you like it. The only pokemon that have caused me a lot of problems are, in general, Nidoking, Magnezone and other Heatran enemies.
 
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Yeah Bolt Beak and Rend are "problematic" for the health of the game the same way Snipe Shot Swords Dance and Nasty Plot are.

Let me get on my damn soap box before yall lynch me. Hyper Offense is a problem being able to set up without fear is a problem (due to forcing them to switch or eating an attack that will maybe do 40% on a lucky crit) This has been my oppinion for a long time and obviously not nessicarily shared

Dracozolt and to some extent the rest of the fossils. Need Zero turns of setup.they can screw you from turn one.

Choice Scarf Bolt Beak Hustle.
Sticky Web (with not enough counterplay to stop it from being deployed in the first place with galvantulas speed and only two moves removing it) Choice Band Hustle Bolt Beak in this example theres no risk to dracozolt at all since it's not even the pokemon setting things up.

Once Web is down your only real options are pray you have a ground type with spin or defog.

But now let's take the band out of the equation let's give it wide lens instead. let's be honest it does not need choice to 1 hit ko most teams. and that prankster the only realy way to guarantee going first after web is down does not work on rapid spin.

so now your only choice is defog and hope to ko it from full hp. probably losing your prankster in the process or burn.........which it will stillKO in one or two hits meaning your losing about 1.5 pokemon to it on average. and that's IF IFFFF your prankster is bulky enough to survive the beak even with the burn.

and since were here I feel the same way about Conk since it also removes the primary way of dealing with hyper attack power pokemon with Guts. Going triple for this game mode.
TBF, the other fossils are much, much worse. They are both 20 points slower and can be outsped by common scarfers under Hail, and also, they're weak to Mach Punch and Stealth Rock. Arctozolt doesn't get a power boost, only Volt Absorb, and and while Arctovish does get Strong Jaw, its other STAB isn't boosted, and it wants to invest SpA to kill things with Freeze Dry. It's mostly Zolt's combo of attack boosting, good typing, and good speed which allow it to abuse Bolt Beak.
 
TBF, the other fossils are much, much worse. They are both 20 points slower and can be outsped by common scarfers under Hail, and also, they're weak to Mach Punch and Stealth Rock. Arctozolt doesn't get a power boost, only Volt Absorb, and and while Arctovish does get Strong Jaw, its other STAB isn't boosted, and it wants to invest SpA to kill things with Freeze Dry. It's mostly Zolt's combo of attack boosting, good typing, and good speed which allow it to abuse Bolt Beak.
Yes, the other fossils are far worse, but I think what he meant by that statement is any good pokemon would immediately become broken if it got Rend of Beak. Take Koko for example. Base 130 speed and 115 attack. Outspeeds most of any meta and absolutely destroys with Beak. If something resists, it can U-Turn. The point is that the move is overpowered on everything it's given to, it's that the move is simply generally unhealthy. However, because there is only one pokemon that can abuse the move properly, it makes no sense to ban the move, but rather the abuser of the move, which is why myself and several others think Dracozolt should be banned
 
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pokebilities-1489788567-5jlvm8poa5ccmkoq0lm4sxqh4m2n0iupw
Another example of how strong Dracozolt is. It didn't get to shine much, but the sole reason for his forfeit at the end of the game was the fact that none of his pokemon had any way arround Zolt. Hippo gets killed by Earthquake at the HP it was at, so I don't even need to risk Outrage, Geezing gets killed by Bolt Beak (also Earthquake because he forgot to select NGas as the ability to get all abilities), and both Corv and Pex are weak to Bolt Beak. Even if Clef and Reun were still up on his side, Zolt would've run through both, even if they were fully physically defensive. Let's just give some raw statistics. Bolt Beat is a guaranteed 3HKO on Geezing (75% chance to 2HKO after rocks and black sludge), Clef has a 38% chance to get OHKOd by Bolt Beak with full PhysDef, Reuniclus is a guaranteed 2HKO if max PhysDef, Corviknight is a guaranteed OHKO if max PhysDef, Toxapex is a guaranteed OHKO if max PhysDef, Hippowdon has an 86% chance to get 2HKOd by Outrage if it is full SpDef, and Hippowdon is guaranteed 3HKOd by Outrage if full PhysDef. All of these pokemon that are known to be extremely bulky, sometimes to the point of mkaing people rage, and the worst that Zolt does is a guaranteed 3HKO (percentages rounded to the nearest whole number). Things like this are simply uncompetitive. Yes, Hippo is a bonified counter because it doesn't get 2HKOd and can repeatedly recover. However, Geezing, while it is a counter, not a bonified one like Hippo due to lack of reliable recovery and vulnerability to passive and chip damage as well as Knock Off. A common counterargument I hear is "if there's a bonified counter, its not overwhelming." Remember Spectrier? Mandibuzz was the only true counter to Spectrier, one single counter, and Spectrier got banned because it remained to still be overwhelming because it forced that one pokemon as a contingency on every team to deal with specifically it, just what Zolt and Conk are doing by forcing Hippo and Geezing on every team, and one pokemon being forced on every team to not gen ran over by one pokemon is unhealthy and extremely uncompetitive in my opinion
 
I made a post last time this was an om about potential suspects, much of it still holds up but I'd like to reiterate on some opinions I've flipped on, it's like really late so sorry for any mistakes or dumb shit

:Clefable: Still feel as though this thing is probably one of the most obnoxious mons in the meta due to the vast number of options it has and how necessary it is. Most people seem to use their own defensive clefable as a check to opposing CM clefable, and offensive LO clefable can beat CM clefable too but I've also seen sets like cosmic power + 2 attacks and even the demonic cosmic power + work up set which turns defensive clefable into setup fodder. If you don't see this set coming it can just destroy you if it boosts enough to take out your slow haze toxapex or clear smog mon, especially since I don't see that much dark types. This is a mon that doesn't feel broken in all games or with all sets, or even with one particular set, but the combination of things it can do and its versatility make it feel broken sometimes, I'm sure some people would argue that clefable is merely overcentralizing or splashable rather than broken and that is a reasonable opinion to have

:dracozolt: I feel less strongly about this thing as I did prior. I feel as though Dracozolt is less unhealthy than the other factors listed here. First of all, I feel like CB dracozolt is overrated, as every team has one or multiple electric immunities (Hippo, Dracozolt or Arctozolt, Landorus-T, Krookodile or others) , as well as dragon immunities (clefable) too. Dracozolt is very prediction reliant on the part of the user, even when not choiced, and it tends to be worn down a lot when running LO. I find that when prepped for Dracozolt, it is still a threat but manageable with factors like rocky helmet recoil (I've had success with soft checks like phys def Lando, hippo, phys def eldegoss, also seen tangrowth and amoonguss) can let you outplay it and bring its health down. It can also be quite inconsistent with accuracy, relying on Outrage traps itself, and you can take it out with priority (weavile mostly, it's super under-utilized) when it's weakened. Dracozolt feels good, but a bit matchup-fishy to me sometimes. It's not the kind of mon I'd like to use but I've played against it enough that I think I know how it works.

All that said Dracozolt is still a massive threat and I still get why people want it banned. The teambuilding pressure it exerts is among the most notable in the metagame. A particular struggle I find with it is that there aren't really any defensive electric resists than can check both it and Magnezone at once, meaning you need to overload on checks to electric types a bit.

To further generalize these arguments to the sand playstyle in general I feel like it would basically entirely die out if Dracozolt was banned, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but it might result in the meta shifting away from weather a bit. Hippowdon would still get use as a standalone mon but it would drop off, and some more mediocre sand sweepers like Stoutland and Drilbur might let the playstyle hold on to a bit of relevancy. I've seen a lot of weather teams on ladder but I feel like some of that is due to new toy syndrome as I've seen a lot of the better players not running weather.

:conkeldurr: still has no checks really besides buzzwole, weezing or weezing galar, usually I just go into phys def clefable with 190 speed before it gets burned and take 50% from thunder punch and go from there. Many players on the ladder leave it in on clefables that obviously speed creep them and they just die or trade but even in the hands of a doofus conkeldurr can almost always take a mon down with it. Really the fact that people are seriously using weezing in this tier shows how much of an impact clefable and conkeldurr have on this meta, I guess my takeaway here is that unless buzzwole catches on in a major way I don't see conkeldurr getting any easier to check

:cloyster: :cinccino: Why is king's rock still allowed. This shit sucks man

:ninetales-alola: :garchomp: Evasion abilities are also pretty cheap because you can run them with no opportunity cost, and ninetales-alola even sets up hail for itself. This is a big factor in why I think hail, not sand, is the most annoying weather to face right now, although it might be because I overprepare for dracozolt a bit. However, if you ban evasion abilities I feel like it results in a lot of collateral damage as stuff like Garchomp outside of sand is perfectly fair and reasonable, even ninetales-alola is fair 90% of the time so part of me wants to leave in untouched
 

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