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Pheromosa Discussion
- Thread starter Nexus
- Start date
I think it'll get banned. The OU tier (or any tier) can never evolve and diversify when you always have to prepare your entire team around 1 Pokemon. Remember Blaziken? Once it set up SD and was at +2 Speed you could lose half of your team trying to take it down. Chandaleur could wall it but then Knock Off got a buff
TalonFlame was also a thing but it got nerfed
TalonFlame was also a thing but it got nerfed
In all honesty, is there really any reason to not run Naive on this thing? Its defenses are so middling that even without the SpD drop it'll die to almost anything worth a damn and theres far fewer special priority moves to hit you first. Maybe Specs/Band set, but beyond that Naive seems to be the way to go.
Well to be honest it will be hard to say what we are preparing for at this point in the game. Since more than Phero I'd actually be more concerned about the upcoming resurgence in weather wars, in particular rain, in tandem with the terrains. So I think its rather hasty to say this mon would stiffle any growth, when its obvious what will turn out to be the bigger game changer. I mean the thing is a lot of assumption is we'll be looking at the same metagame, which I agree she'd easily dominate. However, it's highly unlikely we'll be seeing the same metagame. She'll still do well I believe but I'd rather err on caution because a lot of the calcs and mentions in the thread hark too much with the current metagame.
Marshadow is the only one I am in consensus with, it's way too good, in so much that it's extremely well rounded and can easily function in whatever direction the metagame chooses to go into.
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I would only ever run naive, its defences are so bad it doesn't even matter.
u-turn / high-jump-kick / ice-beam / filler
is all it needs to be an immense threat.
I don't really see it being banned, it just doesn't have the bulk to really justify banning it. Sure, you could argue why is Deoxys still uber while you allow this to be OU. Simple: Deoxys gains a crazy advantage with Psychic Terrian, only thing it does for this girl is protect her from priority. Which it needs badly.
I fail to see your point on how Psychic Terrain differentiates Deoxys and Pheromosa. Even Deo-N, the worst Deoxys form was Uber before Psychic Terrain was a thing, and it has a far worse ability and STAB than Pheromosa.
The main thing it changes is boosted Psycho Boost in all forms, and Deoxys having access to tutor moves while Peromosa having a limited movepool.
Pheromosa has basically everything it needs to be effective at its job.
Not to sound glib, but... so? Deo would still need someone to set up Terrain, and even then it only has a few turns to capitalize on it, assuming it gets in safely, and on top of that Psycho Boost is not something spammable even in the *1.5 power environment because of the recoil. Not to mention other, smaller things like the Knock Off weakness, and Phero's higher speed.
Deoxys-N was never really considered outside of the forums because all that was looked into was its offensive stats period, which was better than anything. So it has nothing to do with psycho boost or anything its just a matter of whether of its offenses being above what the metagame had to offer. Whereas, Deoxys-S and Doexys-D were considered at the time at least to be inferior, for not having the same offensive spreads, so it was at least allowed in OU -- till it was inevitably banned after several suspects. In any event, it will be a new metagame again so it will be hard to say how the benchmark goes, but definitely this will have scrutiny due to its stats (but same can be said for other mons anyways).
Whether it stays or not I think we're looking at too big of a shift in the metagame honestly to start thinking about these things, and I think its better to avoid such discussions at the get go. Unless we're looking at something so blatantly well rounded and good like Marshadow.
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Yeah, you've got a point. We'll just have to see what happens really.
I always thought one of the things that kept the weaker forms in Ubers was all the field hazard shenanigans several of the Deoxys forms would do with Deoxys-S being a fast lead and Deoxys-D being a bulky setter with both basically guaranteed to get hazards up on the field. Pheromosa on the other hand doesn't have access to these hazards (though funny enough can remove them)
Pheramosa has far better attacking stats and all the speed it needs. There is no way this thing stays in OU.
This was AFTER the fact that they were banned prior people didn't really think those roles you mentioned were as big of a deal, you can easily see this in the rational behind the banning threads. Prior to that when the two forms were allowed they were simply being slept on. Till eventually we'd have Deoxy-sharp teams proliferating all over the place.
As for Phero it is just evidently her offensive stats that more or less make her more comparable to Deoxys-N rather than speed or defensive form, and yes those offenses were considered to be too dangerous to bring to OU (aside the support moves). As for whether she'll find other roles well you know what that is again something we'll have to look into when the metagame actually arrives, but you can be certain there is definitely going to be scrutiny here.
Honestly, I can see it in OU. The new Poison/Water is probably able to wall it, take the U-turn spam easily thanks to Regenerator and stop the Quiver Dance set with Haze. Also, if Aegislash drops (with others Mon currently Uber, like every gen beginning) and stays OU, it will give a hard time to Pherosoma, which can't use Rapid Spin against Aegi. There are probably some underused Poison and Ghost type able to stop this thing like Cofagrigus, Chandelure, Tentacruel (if we still play it despite the rise of Toxapex)... The nerf of Gale Wings is disturbing though, but there are other priority user.
[quote="Wenderz, post: 7078893, member: 331114"There are probably some underused Poison and Ghost type able to stop this thing like Cofagrigus, Chandelure, Tentacruel (if we still play it despite the rise of Toxapex)... The nerf of Gale Wings is disturbing though, but there are other priority user.[/quote]
This is exactly what happens when in a metagame appears a pokemon too strong.
Pheromosa is clearly a case of a specialized pokemon with huge Spe stat and high offenses.
Has HJKick + Ice Beam as coverage; U-Turn is nice for momentum. The last slot is for coverage and you can go even mixed. Its movepool is harsh, but there is enough to work with such as in the case of Serperior. Pheromosa is designed only for hyper offensive team, but does this extremely well.
Pheromosa isn't a sweeper meant to KOs pokemons from full HP; it is a revenge killed which can forget to run a Choice Scarf (with that Spe...) in order tu run a power boosting item (such as Life Orb, but even a Band or a Specs) to clean the opposite team.
Ok, Ghost types are more common in this generation, but Knock Off is used almost everywhere in OU as utility move, so we have to say how many reliable checks this thing has.
===> ban it from OU, please.
P.S. Can somebody tell me where there are news about Knock Off buff and Talonflame nerf? I'd like to see them. Thank you.
This is exactly what happens when in a metagame appears a pokemon too strong.
Pheromosa is clearly a case of a specialized pokemon with huge Spe stat and high offenses.
Has HJKick + Ice Beam as coverage; U-Turn is nice for momentum. The last slot is for coverage and you can go even mixed. Its movepool is harsh, but there is enough to work with such as in the case of Serperior. Pheromosa is designed only for hyper offensive team, but does this extremely well.
Pheromosa isn't a sweeper meant to KOs pokemons from full HP; it is a revenge killed which can forget to run a Choice Scarf (with that Spe...) in order tu run a power boosting item (such as Life Orb, but even a Band or a Specs) to clean the opposite team.
Ok, Ghost types are more common in this generation, but Knock Off is used almost everywhere in OU as utility move, so we have to say how many reliable checks this thing has.
===> ban it from OU, please.
P.S. Can somebody tell me where there are news about Knock Off buff and Talonflame nerf? I'd like to see them. Thank you.
Gale Wings only activates at full health (hello Acrobatics) and Knock Off is still 65 BP and retains its buff should it knock an item off.
As for Pheromosa, just like people have been saying, this is the set we'll see:
Pheromosa @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- U-Turn
- High Jump Kick
- Ice Beam
- Poison Jab
This is honestly kind of terrifying, especially with the priority nerfs we've been seeing. This thing + Tapu Lele will be a deadly one-two punch, especially because that precious potato can deal with Poison-Types with x2.25 power Psyschic moves thanks to STAB and Psychic Terrain, and that alone will be enough to ban this thing. It is just too good in the emerging meta.
Also, just thought I'd throw this out there, Mimikyu is a surprisingly good Pheromosa counter, thanks to Disguise, Swords Dance, and STAB on Play Rough and Shadow Sneak.
One has to remember that Deoxys had A LOT more going on than this Pokemon does. Deoxys was infamously known for more than just its offensive sets - setting up Spikes, Stealth Rock, and / or Screens was also nothing to mess with.
I would be willing to try this in Ubers, but I can't shrug off how awkward it would be to face Giratina-O (esp since they pack Shadow Sneak too) and the priority clusterfuck from Ray and Arceus really don't do it favors either. It doesn't learn Rock Slide either so Ho-oh can menace with it. At least HP Rock exists.
I'm not even 100% sure how well it will do in OU either, but it depends on who remains in OU. Aegislash is a hard stop to it among a few other mons (yes we know HP Fire exists). Mixed set seems deadly. If you can keep Psychic Terrain on the field it definitely could do some pummeling. U-turn also lets it cheese out of some bad switch-ins too.
Definitely look forward to the end result of this mon's placement in singles.
I would be willing to try this in Ubers, but I can't shrug off how awkward it would be to face Giratina-O (esp since they pack Shadow Sneak too) and the priority clusterfuck from Ray and Arceus really don't do it favors either. It doesn't learn Rock Slide either so Ho-oh can menace with it. At least HP Rock exists.
I'm not even 100% sure how well it will do in OU either, but it depends on who remains in OU. Aegislash is a hard stop to it among a few other mons (yes we know HP Fire exists). Mixed set seems deadly. If you can keep Psychic Terrain on the field it definitely could do some pummeling. U-turn also lets it cheese out of some bad switch-ins too.
Definitely look forward to the end result of this mon's placement in singles.
I don't think this was discussed here before, but what about taking jackgraves' set and give it a Naughty Nature instead? The main advantage would be to hit harder (duh) and, most importantly, after it KOes an opponent, Beast Boost would raise its Atk stat instead of its Speed stat (I actually don't see the benefits of raising Pheromosa's Speed stat at all), making it even more threatening, especially late-game where all (or most) priority users are gone. I know the speed loss is detrimental, but it still outspeeds Mewtwo and it would've still been KOed by Deoxys-A's Extreme Speed anyway.
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
hi, first time posting on smogon in a bit over 7 months. it feels good to come back in time for sun / moon. enough about me though. let's talk about this bug. its movepool is sparse, but filled with just the moves pheromosa needs to succeed (maybe even thrive?) in the harsh environment known as ou. it's difficult as h*ck to switch into, has incredible coverage with its stabs alone, and gets quiver dance to boot. this bug is easily my favorite of the ultra beasts and the best of them in my eyes. this set is what i feel will be most common:
pheromosa @
| beast boost ** beautiful lies
naïve | 252 atk / 4 spa / 252 spe
• high jump kick
• poison jab / lunge
• ice beam
• u-turn
just a generic 252 / 4 / 252 offensive spread, as seen in other late-game sweepers. early on, clicking u-turn to scout your opponent's primary answers will probably be your best bet. while pheromosa is strong, it's not "let's 6-0 this team starting on turn 3" strong and will need teammates to wear walls down before attempting to sweep. with this ev spread, beast boost guarantees that pheromosa will get a speed boost after getting a kill, making it practically impossible to revenge kill outside of priority. alternatively, if you fear being burnt, you can go with a more special-based set with bug buzz over poison jab / lunge and the attack / special attack evs flipped over. to make this paragraph short, pheromosa is one of the best additions to the standard metagame hyper offense players could have ever asked for.
that being said, i think the people crying for pheromosa to be banned to ubers may be jumping the gun a bit. it has no recourse against aegislash (which i doubt will be banned right away), mega venusaur, clefable (assuming no poison jab), toxapex, and chandelure (funnily enough) beyond u-turning to a teammate more suited to handle these threats. while its offenses are rather ludicrous at a glance, it still has to contend with scarfers (assuming it hasn't picked up a speed boost), priority (which, while reduced in efficacy, still should be considered a threat), and paralysis (which cuts its shenanigans short). on top of all this, if it can't ko its opponent in one turn, it's as good as dead in the next turn thanks to its noticeable lack of bulk. while it may be easy to draw comparisons between pheromosa and deoxys, deoxys has an expansive movepool that lets it do more than just attack whereas pheromosa is fairly one-dimensional.
GnralLao i could see that as an option to make pheromosa a more powerful wallbreaker, but when using pheromosa as a late-game sweeper, i think that the speed boosts will be more appreciated.
anyways, i'm really excited to be able to playtest this mon once sun and moon come out! i doubt that it'll be banned, but we'll see.
pheromosa @
naïve | 252 atk / 4 spa / 252 spe
• high jump kick
• poison jab / lunge
• ice beam
• u-turn
just a generic 252 / 4 / 252 offensive spread, as seen in other late-game sweepers. early on, clicking u-turn to scout your opponent's primary answers will probably be your best bet. while pheromosa is strong, it's not "let's 6-0 this team starting on turn 3" strong and will need teammates to wear walls down before attempting to sweep. with this ev spread, beast boost guarantees that pheromosa will get a speed boost after getting a kill, making it practically impossible to revenge kill outside of priority. alternatively, if you fear being burnt, you can go with a more special-based set with bug buzz over poison jab / lunge and the attack / special attack evs flipped over. to make this paragraph short, pheromosa is one of the best additions to the standard metagame hyper offense players could have ever asked for.
that being said, i think the people crying for pheromosa to be banned to ubers may be jumping the gun a bit. it has no recourse against aegislash (which i doubt will be banned right away), mega venusaur, clefable (assuming no poison jab), toxapex, and chandelure (funnily enough) beyond u-turning to a teammate more suited to handle these threats. while its offenses are rather ludicrous at a glance, it still has to contend with scarfers (assuming it hasn't picked up a speed boost), priority (which, while reduced in efficacy, still should be considered a threat), and paralysis (which cuts its shenanigans short). on top of all this, if it can't ko its opponent in one turn, it's as good as dead in the next turn thanks to its noticeable lack of bulk. while it may be easy to draw comparisons between pheromosa and deoxys, deoxys has an expansive movepool that lets it do more than just attack whereas pheromosa is fairly one-dimensional.
GnralLao i could see that as an option to make pheromosa a more powerful wallbreaker, but when using pheromosa as a late-game sweeper, i think that the speed boosts will be more appreciated.
anyways, i'm really excited to be able to playtest this mon once sun and moon come out! i doubt that it'll be banned, but we'll see.
Ash Borer
I've heard they're short of room in hell
nope. Deoxys-n was useable at the very beginning of XY OU. It was very, very blatantly overpowered then, even next to titans like Mega Kanga, Aegislash, Mega Gengar, Mega Lucario, and Genesect. Deo-N is better than Pheromosa, because it has better coverage, and Extremespeed, but not by that much. 2 High Jump Kicks hit a lot harder than 2 Psycho boosts.
Since when was High Jump Kick an spammable move? Ghost-type Pokemon, Protect users and 10% chance everytime Pheromosa wants to hit doesn't scream a broken Pokemon.
And Poison Jab is not STAB Gunk Shot
And this is the list of Pokemon that can take its STABs wuth little to no effort:
-Clefable, Landorus-T.
-Tornadus-T, M-Heracross,
-Talonflame (nerfed), Thundurus.
-Azumarill, M-Charizard Y, Gliscor, M-Pinsir, Skarmory,
-Gengar, Nidoking, M-Aerodactyl, M-Altaria, Dragonite, Volcarona, Zapdos, Togekiss.
Resists High Jump Kick and has no problems with U-Turn:
-M-Sableye, Amoonguss, M-Venusaur.
Also, there's Aegislash, who will be unbanned at the start, who is a complete COUNTER of this thing.
And Poison Jab is not STAB Gunk Shot
And this is the list of Pokemon that can take its STABs wuth little to no effort:
-Clefable, Landorus-T.
-Tornadus-T, M-Heracross,
-Talonflame (nerfed), Thundurus.
-Azumarill, M-Charizard Y, Gliscor, M-Pinsir, Skarmory,
-Gengar, Nidoking, M-Aerodactyl, M-Altaria, Dragonite, Volcarona, Zapdos, Togekiss.
Resists High Jump Kick and has no problems with U-Turn:
-M-Sableye, Amoonguss, M-Venusaur.
Also, there's Aegislash, who will be unbanned at the start, who is a complete COUNTER of this thing.
You are looking at this way too narrowly.
Pheromosa outspeeds everything you listed there (And very few of them have priority, and even if they do Tapu Lele is a dead stop to Priority from anything on the ground, and these two WILL be paired together. This means only M-Pinsir and Dragonite on that list are reliable stops) meaning if Pheromosa is in trouble it can just U-Turn out into something that can deal. While it needs HJK to hit harder than Deoxys (And we are saying hitting harder than DEOXYS. FUCKING DEOXYS, a mon infamous for hitting like a tank on steroids) it also has the Added Advantage of U-Turn which hits hard and gives momentum. It can also turn into a Sweeper at any time, because if you let it get a Kill Beast Boost triggers, and its GG if you don't have Priority available to deal with it. Or Unaware Clefable i suppose but It can just U-Turn out on that.
Its the best parts of Deo-N and Genesect rolled into one, with less bulk which neither of them needed anyway, and an easier chance to sweep if it builds up a head of steam. When you are looking at busted mons like Aegislash to keep it in check (Which isn't even guaranteed to stop it if Lele had been in recently, then Pheomosa just tags out with U-Turn), and its best comparisons are similarly busted mons you have an obviously broken mon. Killing isn't all there is to this thing in the slightest, any offensive team not using this is crippling itself, its Momentum gain, revenge killing and a Sweeper all in one.
Enjoy it in OU while you can, its not staying in the tier for love nor money.