-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
All Gens Past gens throwback : Suspected mons.
- Thread starter dadoux
- Start date
Ok i always wanted a thread like that, thx u rlly.
I've to talk about Volcarona (BW), we've all seen how this stuff is broken. Everyone are saying that it has Sr weakness or you can just counter it with Dragonite... lol ?
You better be kidding here, volca doesnt even need more than one support which is a spinner and it can also handle all its check with different set except Chansey.
how many time i've seen ppl get wrecked by that while it had 2 check, i even got raped while i was using nite bander+Ttar and my opponent wasnt even using Hp ice version. When u're using volca one thing you've to do is to set up EH or Rock then rotate with a good support like Lando-T to force the switch out against nite/ttar/salamence until it reached range KO or ferrothorn for gyarados/azu. Then Let us not forget that volca most of the time is played with dug or gothitelle (lol heatran/tentacruel suck my nutt).
Keldeo used to be a rlly good check against it but since BW2 we are playing passho version+ giga drain which is an autowin if your opponent only runs keldeo.
Then don't tell me that volca is hard to setup, he definitly can do it as it want since you can also play lum berry version and just set up it on Jira or gastro ect... With passho you can even setup on bulky water like politoed/keldeo/starmie and im not even talking about Bulky Sun roost which is a fkin joke.
Finally he's overcentralizing our teambuilding, i can count how many time i've deleted teams just because it was volca weak, and i think we all know how frustrating is to get sweeped by volcarona.
Pls BW council do us a favour and suspect volcarona .... (Yeah im done with that and I could sell my mom to see it banned a day)
I've to talk about Volcarona (BW), we've all seen how this stuff is broken. Everyone are saying that it has Sr weakness or you can just counter it with Dragonite... lol ?
You better be kidding here, volca doesnt even need more than one support which is a spinner and it can also handle all its check with different set except Chansey.
how many time i've seen ppl get wrecked by that while it had 2 check, i even got raped while i was using nite bander+Ttar and my opponent wasnt even using Hp ice version. When u're using volca one thing you've to do is to set up EH or Rock then rotate with a good support like Lando-T to force the switch out against nite/ttar/salamence until it reached range KO or ferrothorn for gyarados/azu. Then Let us not forget that volca most of the time is played with dug or gothitelle (lol heatran/tentacruel suck my nutt).
Keldeo used to be a rlly good check against it but since BW2 we are playing passho version+ giga drain which is an autowin if your opponent only runs keldeo.
Then don't tell me that volca is hard to setup, he definitly can do it as it want since you can also play lum berry version and just set up it on Jira or gastro ect... With passho you can even setup on bulky water like politoed/keldeo/starmie and im not even talking about Bulky Sun roost which is a fkin joke.
Finally he's overcentralizing our teambuilding, i can count how many time i've deleted teams just because it was volca weak, and i think we all know how frustrating is to get sweeped by volcarona.
Pls BW council do us a favour and suspect volcarona .... (Yeah im done with that and I could sell my mom to see it banned a day)
Last edited:
Volcarona is a straight 6-0 against a balanced sand and is forcing the metagame to play things like heatran and stuff to avoid being murdered..funny thing is that they can actually be dealt with (dugtrio/hp ground/hp water under rain hits pretty hard the non-spD version too). It is also putting a veil on sun teams which runs it pretty much every time, putting the weather as an "hit or miss" match-up, which is sad since this weather got potential. Every suns team is like Ninetales / venusaur / forretress / dugtrio / heatran / volcarona which is a 50/50 winrate and a lot of the time, not skill-based at all.
It is also pretty diverse, like Leftiez said, the passho one can deal with keldeo, hp ice kills garchomp/dragonite, hurricane/hp water has a good coverage/hp rock hits gyarados/dragonite/moltres/opp volcarona at the same time etc...if it's hard to check at +1, don't even try at +2, so you don't have time to check for the 3rd/4th move because it will just set-up another Quiver dance during your pivoting.
I don't think volcarona is defensively useful for the metagame too, and i don't see how a metagame without it would change that much, besides giving more build options to people and less random match-ups, it could be only for the best to test it.
(And also i can't stand that srchomp/volcarona/loom/analmie team everyone is running kek)
It is also pretty diverse, like Leftiez said, the passho one can deal with keldeo, hp ice kills garchomp/dragonite, hurricane/hp water has a good coverage/hp rock hits gyarados/dragonite/moltres/opp volcarona at the same time etc...if it's hard to check at +1, don't even try at +2, so you don't have time to check for the 3rd/4th move because it will just set-up another Quiver dance during your pivoting.
I don't think volcarona is defensively useful for the metagame too, and i don't see how a metagame without it would change that much, besides giving more build options to people and less random match-ups, it could be only for the best to test it.
(And also i can't stand that srchomp/volcarona/loom/analmie team everyone is running kek)
MoxieInfinite
Banned deucer.
just gonna link this here, for the gsc snorlax people, because they WILL be coming, they always do... http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/snorlax-ought-to-be-nixed-no-im-serious.3483658/
interresting thread, looking forward to read more!
interresting thread, looking forward to read more!
I thought your position on Wrap was "not OP but boring". I think that might be beyond the scope of this thread.
TBQH I think the most "balanced" GSC OU meta would be to unban Celebi and Ho-Oh. Ho-Oh/Celebi/Snorlax are all sort-of on a level (a level below LMM), so at least it'd be "3 OP mons" rather than "1 zomg-OP mon". Banning Snorlax doesn't work nearly as well since then Raikou/Zapdos get OP and if you ban the Electrics then Suicune/Skarm are OP and so on until you're left with basically Mount Silver's BL meta.
So yeah, I kinda gotta go with Leftiez and dadoux on Volcarona, it is pretty centralising and not really healthy to the metagame. My solution to beating Volcarona is actually just keeping Hazards up and applying offensive pressure so it can't set up, as it has no real checks due to its wide options. (Chansey stops it but I will be damned before I run that blob) Passho Berry lets it set up on Keldeo, Starmie, Bulky waters and keeps Azumarill from ruining its sweep. Hurricane+HP Water keeps rain from making it irrelevant. HP Ice stops all Dragons who get in its way, alternatively HP Rock kills other Flyers, and HP Ground takes out Heatran. Either ways Volcarona usually runs with a trapper: Dugtrio or Gothitelle, which takes out anything that can annoy Volcarona.
Though it cant run all of these options at once, it still isn't really walled by anything, as a lot of checks are in a 50/50, as Volcarona can simply try to stack boosts against them (+2 Volcarona is a nightmare). He makes the meta and sun as a playstyle 50/50, and forces people to rely on prediction rather than skill. Though Volcarona has checks and weaknesses, it is a ginormous threat in the meta and I'm definitely in favor of a suspect at least.
Otherwise I'm fine with most metas. RBY and GSC idk, ADV is pretty balanced as a meta (maybe we could drop something like Mew? just speculating). DPP LatiMence would be cool to see back, but I'm on the fence about whether they should be OU. BW why was Lando banned? I started PS! in March 2013 but only joined the site October post the ban. It didn't really seem ban worthy.
Though it cant run all of these options at once, it still isn't really walled by anything, as a lot of checks are in a 50/50, as Volcarona can simply try to stack boosts against them (+2 Volcarona is a nightmare). He makes the meta and sun as a playstyle 50/50, and forces people to rely on prediction rather than skill. Though Volcarona has checks and weaknesses, it is a ginormous threat in the meta and I'm definitely in favor of a suspect at least.
Otherwise I'm fine with most metas. RBY and GSC idk, ADV is pretty balanced as a meta (maybe we could drop something like Mew? just speculating). DPP LatiMence would be cool to see back, but I'm on the fence about whether they should be OU. BW why was Lando banned? I started PS! in March 2013 but only joined the site October post the ban. It didn't really seem ban worthy.
I don't think banning Volcarona would offer much more possibility when teambuilding. You are talking about Heatran, but what bulky sand teams are using to prevent Mew to wall their entire team? Heatran, yes, so far his best counter.
I know you will tell me bulky waters like Gastrodon or Jellicent are doing this job well, but it's not really the case, Jellicent is absolutely raped by offensive Tyranitar and if Gastrodon is the only one problem to deal with, just use some lure such as HP Grass Rotom-W and Mew is free. And it's without saying that Mew beat bulky water in 1v1 anyway.
In fact, if Volcarona is today as play as he is now it's because the BW metagame became more bulkier and Mew (which is use in some bulky sand team) is a perfect mon for Volcarona to set up a Quiver Dance.
So if we had to therymon, without Volcarona we could imagine more Mew and then, it will be more difficult to play wheatherless offensive teams since mew is really hard to take down : Scizor is the main threat to bulky psychic mon and get fucked by WoW, Breloom who is I think the best threat to kill Jellicent and Gastrodon is also fucked by WoW. Actually you have to rely on Guts Conkeldurr with Payback, or Lum Berry SD Scizor (which don't fit in every team and need a Swords Dance boost to kill Mew) or shit like that since the only real fire offensive mon in the metagame which can be used is Heatran and doesn't fit in every teams.
And by extension, if offensive teams are less viable, bulky teams will dominate and the meta will become boring as hell.
I'm not saying to ban Mew but there is not only drawbacks with Volcarona in the metagame.
(btw having different thread for each gen isn't good? I mean if poeple are speaking about different generation in this thread, it could cause confusion).
I know you will tell me bulky waters like Gastrodon or Jellicent are doing this job well, but it's not really the case, Jellicent is absolutely raped by offensive Tyranitar and if Gastrodon is the only one problem to deal with, just use some lure such as HP Grass Rotom-W and Mew is free. And it's without saying that Mew beat bulky water in 1v1 anyway.
In fact, if Volcarona is today as play as he is now it's because the BW metagame became more bulkier and Mew (which is use in some bulky sand team) is a perfect mon for Volcarona to set up a Quiver Dance.
So if we had to therymon, without Volcarona we could imagine more Mew and then, it will be more difficult to play wheatherless offensive teams since mew is really hard to take down : Scizor is the main threat to bulky psychic mon and get fucked by WoW, Breloom who is I think the best threat to kill Jellicent and Gastrodon is also fucked by WoW. Actually you have to rely on Guts Conkeldurr with Payback, or Lum Berry SD Scizor (which don't fit in every team and need a Swords Dance boost to kill Mew) or shit like that since the only real fire offensive mon in the metagame which can be used is Heatran and doesn't fit in every teams.
And by extension, if offensive teams are less viable, bulky teams will dominate and the meta will become boring as hell.
I'm not saying to ban Mew but there is not only drawbacks with Volcarona in the metagame.
(btw having different thread for each gen isn't good? I mean if poeple are speaking about different generation in this thread, it could cause confusion).
Having one thread for every gen is fine, you can keep a good amount of activity in it, i don't want 5 dying threads you know.
It's obvious that after a ban, mons will rise, but volcarona is annoying to the point that i don't want to play balanced because i know that i have a way to have my ass kicked even if i have some checks/counters because of dugtrio and stuff. I don't think we should overanalyze the outcome of the metagame, but saying "we shouldn't ban volcarona because mew will be annoying" is not a really good point, since i don't really think you can use mew effectively against a sun team either way and that it's obvious that killing a threat will make others mons better, mew will be far from OP though, we could see a rise of sableyes for example, idk, the metagame will balance itself after some time.
It's obvious that after a ban, mons will rise, but volcarona is annoying to the point that i don't want to play balanced because i know that i have a way to have my ass kicked even if i have some checks/counters because of dugtrio and stuff. I don't think we should overanalyze the outcome of the metagame, but saying "we shouldn't ban volcarona because mew will be annoying" is not a really good point, since i don't really think you can use mew effectively against a sun team either way and that it's obvious that killing a threat will make others mons better, mew will be far from OP though, we could see a rise of sableyes for example, idk, the metagame will balance itself after some time.
I don't like Snorlax. I would rather he leave than have Celebi + Ho-oh brought in. Mostly because 1.5 mandatory mons (Snorlax + Zapdos/Raikou) is enough, adding more just exacerbates the problems overcentralization creates. Although RBY is similarly centralized, it's kind of part of RBY's character that both sides have roughly the same set of pieces. RBY simply doesn't have a ton of room for variety in teambuilding even without its top 4, whereas GSC has a lot more potential for variety. Not to mention that of RBY's mandatory mons, none have standard sets that are unkillable (the closest is Chansey, who is basically Snorlax bait, ergo not unkillable at all), only gimmicky sets like ReflectNesia Lax and Reflect Chansey.
There is the very real issue that GSC minus Lax would result in Electrics jumping in to dominate in his place. Banning Hidden Power on Zap/Kou could work, although this is a very messy rule that, while present in GSC's past, is the weird sort of complex ban that is best avoided. Banning Lax + both Elecs in GSC would probably not work because of Vap, who would then dominate because there'd no longer be a decent mon that could both tank and kill it.
Frankly, I could live with GSC sans Lax, sans Zapdos, and leaving Raikou. Any Ground threatens to 2HKO Kou, and heavier-hitting ones like Marowak and Rhydon threaten to OHKO (Rhydon technically only maxes out at 96%, but that basically means Raikou, after switching in on Spikes or a STAB Thunder, is subsequently threatened to be OHKOed by a Rhydon if it switches in). Although Hidden Power makes it risky to switch most Grounds into him, you can grab momentum back from a Kou. The same can't be said for Snorlax, whose Curse set must be respected immediately, thereby instantly giving you the initiative against whatever if he comes in healthy; nor Zapdos, who is 2HKOed by precious little and OHKOed by none, and can therefore stay in for Thunder(bolt)s against whatever.
Basically, with Kou, your opponent can actually capitalize pretty heavily off your active mon and you need to think about how you'd stop that. With an active Snorlax or Zapdos you're just always in control no matter what you're up against, which in turn promotes brainless play.
There is the very real issue that GSC minus Lax would result in Electrics jumping in to dominate in his place. Banning Hidden Power on Zap/Kou could work, although this is a very messy rule that, while present in GSC's past, is the weird sort of complex ban that is best avoided. Banning Lax + both Elecs in GSC would probably not work because of Vap, who would then dominate because there'd no longer be a decent mon that could both tank and kill it.
Frankly, I could live with GSC sans Lax, sans Zapdos, and leaving Raikou. Any Ground threatens to 2HKO Kou, and heavier-hitting ones like Marowak and Rhydon threaten to OHKO (Rhydon technically only maxes out at 96%, but that basically means Raikou, after switching in on Spikes or a STAB Thunder, is subsequently threatened to be OHKOed by a Rhydon if it switches in). Although Hidden Power makes it risky to switch most Grounds into him, you can grab momentum back from a Kou. The same can't be said for Snorlax, whose Curse set must be respected immediately, thereby instantly giving you the initiative against whatever if he comes in healthy; nor Zapdos, who is 2HKOed by precious little and OHKOed by none, and can therefore stay in for Thunder(bolt)s against whatever.
Basically, with Kou, your opponent can actually capitalize pretty heavily off your active mon and you need to think about how you'd stop that. With an active Snorlax or Zapdos you're just always in control no matter what you're up against, which in turn promotes brainless play.
What would happpen if we unbanned shaymin-S in BW, it looks annoying af to deal with, but it's general powerlevel doesnt seem too insane compared to the rest of OU.
Kinda surprised to hear about how good volcarona is, Im not sure I really get it either, but then again, I dont know jack about BW, so yeahhhhhh.
Kinda surprised to hear about how good volcarona is, Im not sure I really get it either, but then again, I dont know jack about BW, so yeahhhhhh.
Any team with only one Snorlax answer risks getting immediately swept by Snorlax. That is pretty much the definition of overpowered.
ReflectZam comes pretty damned close; only Slowbro can come in on a healthy ReflectZam and defeat it. Persian 2HKOs but so does Zam and Zam's faster; the two best Swords Dancers are 2HKOed by Psychic as well. Nothing else can break it directly.
If Raikou's there and Snorlax isn't, is Zapdos really that overpowered?
Remember that time Latias was OU? Remember when it was put on a suspect list? Remember when everyone agreed it was OU? Remember when it stayed in OU for a long ass time? Remember how this site kept on trying to ban it? Remember how it took several attempts to ban it and with the final result, it stayed permanently banned?
Pepperidge farms remembers.
Pepperidge farms remembers.
Say it. I don't know what it is. "Free Garchomp"? "You're all a bunch of idiots who just need to learn how to pkmn"? "I'm the best"?
Ah, Garchomp. I preferred it in the game (fun to fight against), although Sand Veil could get out of hand at times.
I was definitely against the Salamence ban though.
I was definitely against the Salamence ban though.
I personally love it when an old join date (in any forum) makes elitists and condescending posts. We gotta respect our elders and when they something, it's for a reason, even if they're wrong. Let it all out, E, it will please me. (No homo)
dude your join date is like two months before garchomp got banned shut the fuck up
Neither or both should be banned anyway they're so samey unless you're doing some Dragon Dance garbage on Latios.
Literally better than Latios, which never was unbanned in the first place. And for that matter, they're better than Garchomp too.
Neither or both should be banned anyway they're so samey unless you're doing some Dragon Dance garbage on Latios.
Well, about shaymin sky, what actually counters that thing in BW OU? It's so ridiculously easy to get a sub up with that if you got the momentum and then it realistically bullshits out everything that isn't Blissey immediately. this post probably showcases the general communities consense on this pretty well. But overall Skymin is just ridiculous if he gets a free switch - 60% to regain health with lefties and leech seed while hitting all mons immune to it in the tier super effectively (bar Ferrothorn, but what is it even going to do back?), stupidly broken Seed Flare that can turn every check into a non-check and a good variety of sets to run, like choice, growth in sun, sub seed, etc etc. Skymin might not be good if it has to switch into something, but that doesn't happen on hyper offense anyways. I mean i do question quite many bans in BW, but Skymin is definitely not one of them.
Even in XY that thing is still hilariously broken and the 4-5 days before it got quickbanned it was literally on every team high up on the ladder for a good reason. Even with Talonflame being a (very shaky) counter it's just too good.
If you're addressing me (I think my join date coincides with that banning) I'll let you know that I wasn't being sarcastic. And although I did want you to be rude I didn't mean to me ;_;
Serene Grace breaks Seed Flare and Air Slash. It's significantly better than Iron Head Jirachi, because it's faster, it's more powerful, and it has Seed Flare which completely wrecks anything trying to switch into it.
Like, seriously, I'm one of the people who argues that RBY Dragonite should remain unbanned, and my eyes still boggled out on seeing how insanely broken Shaymin-Sky's STAB moves are. Seed Flare makes RBY Psychic look bad, and RBY Psychic is so broken that it's still a good move despite most teams having 0 weaknesses and 2-3 resists to it.
Last edited:
I think somebody once said Mew wasn't broken in RBY OU. This was, however, because they were an idiot who'd never actually played RBY and were just going off their impressions of it in later gens.
Honestly, OU + Mewtwo would be less unbalanced than OU + Mew. Mew switches into almost everything and sweeps. Mewtwo also switches into everything, but there are a couple of things that can tank its attacks for a few turns.
Honestly, OU + Mewtwo would be less unbalanced than OU + Mew. Mew switches into almost everything and sweeps. Mewtwo also switches into everything, but there are a couple of things that can tank its attacks for a few turns.